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Re: [tamilcomputing] Revision of TSCII encoding

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  • Kumar Mallikarjunan
    Sivaraj: It is the time we should critically look into the problems. I have seen reports of missing ¬ (A), the second uyir in many situations. Although the
    Message 1 of 9 , Sep 28, 2001
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      Sivaraj:

      It is the time we should critically look into the problems.
      I have seen reports of missing ¬ (A), the second uyir in
      many situations. Although the word break problem with "thu" is
      not a serious issue, it have to looked into as well.
      In this regard, working toward a better solution (TSCII 2.0),
      may be we should open up the discussions in detail.

      I fully agree with an interim TSCII 1.7 soultion.

      If we all agree with this, I will send Keyman 5.0 keyboard files
      to all of you to test. I just have them made today.

      Kumar.

      At 9/28/2001 08:19 PM +0000, Sivaraj D wrote:
      >Dear Friends:
      >
      >One of the important decisions of INFITT announced at TI2001
      >conference was recognition of TAB and TSCII as the two most
      >widely used 8-bit bilingual glyph encodings on the Net and
      >recommendation that these two encodings alone be used from now
      >on in all Tamil information interchange through the Net
      >(TAM recommended for cases where monolingual encoding usage
      >is deemed necessary).
      >
      >It was also suggested during the meetings that, if there are
      >any problems being faced in the existing encodings, the people
      >with experience in those encodings may discuss those problems
      >and suggest backward compatible changes to those encodings.
      >
      >It is time now for people involved in TSCII efforts to engage
      >in discussions as to whether TSCII in the present form,
      >version 1.6 (for details see the gif at
      > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/5180/charset16.gif )
      >is adequate for all our needs or should be revised.
      >
      >
      >TSCII mailing list and TSCII website
      >
      >Discussions on TSCII revision will take place from now on in
      >the mailing list <tscii@yahoogroups.com>. This will be the
      >last posting on this topic copied to all Tamil mailing lists.
      >
      >Archives of the list <tscii@yahoogroups.com> will be open for
      >all those interested to follow the discussions (currently
      >archive open only to members but this will be changed).
      >Those interested to participate in the TSCII revision
      >discussions should sign up by visiting yahoo site
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tscii/
      >
      >We now have the domain name <www.tscii.org> registered and
      >this site will be used to provide all information related to
      >TSCII encoding. Existing site <www.tamil.net/tscii> will
      >continue as a mirror site.
      >
      >
      >Problems of TSCII encoding
      >
      >TSCII has been in use widely for nearly four years without
      >major problems in several modes of information interchange
      >such as emails, mailing lists, websites, pdf files and desktop
      >publishing in three major computer platforms (windows,
      >macintosh and unix).
      >
      >One persistent problem noticed during the past two years is
      >handling of third uyir letter "i" (encoded slot # 173) in some
      >of the key Microsoft application softwares running under
      >Windows OS (e.g. Internet Explorer, Outlook Express and MS Word).
      >Even today Sun Star Office package of Win OS handles TSCII
      >cleanly. The above problem is due to over-riding of "i" at the
      >unprotected slot (#173) of soft-hyphen of win-1252/ANSI schemes.
      >
      >One other documented problem noted is bad word-break that occurs
      >(right after the uyirmei letter "thu" when Tamil Texts are used
      >in justified format during DTP publishing in MS-Word and related
      >softwares. This is the outcome of using shrink-wrap softwares
      >created for English (Latin-1/win-1252 charset) language market
      >for Tamil Language.
      >
      >If you know of any other problems of TSCII, please post them in
      >the mailing list immediately.
      >
      >
      >Proposed Revision of TSCII
      >
      >To accelerate the process, Muthu Nedumaran, Manivannan, Kalyan,
      >Sivaraj and Ravindran Paul met at KL right after the TI2001
      >conference and reviewed possible options to take care of the
      >above problems.
      >
      >Given the large number of user-base and significant amount of
      >Tamil database generated during the past four years for TSCII
      >(e.g. Project Madurai, aaraamthinai website, numerous mailing
      >lists), a preferred option is to go for some minor revision
      >(version 1.7), one that will take care of the "i" problem.
      >
      >One possibility here is to move "i" to the vacant slot #254.
      >Of course, such a shifting of a single "uyir" will break the
      >natural ordering (neTungkaNNu varisai) of uyirs in the scheme.
      >In our view, a single exception case can be adequately handled
      >in search, sorting routines (Tamil sorting in any case cannot
      >be done using that of ASCII).
      >
      >Keeping "i" in the current slot (173) but as a DEPRECATED glyph
      >will allow access to the entire database generated till date.
      >(A deprecated glyph is one that will be present in all font
      >faces corresponding to revised TSCII but whose usage in any
      >applications or OS is forbidden. Its presence is solely for
      >backward compatibility reasons. Unicode revision of characters
      >is done in this manner- no characters are deleted during
      >revision).
      >
      >Regarding bad word-break occurring right after "thu", it is
      >our opinion that this problem can be handled in dedicated Tamil
      >software and does not require reshuffling of the entire slot
      >allocations.
      >
      >It is also proposed that, font-faces prepared according to
      >the revised (version 1.7) scheme will carry "TSC" as a prefix,
      >rather than as suffix currently in use. Thus fonts of TSCII
      >1.7 scheme are to be named as TSCxxxxx where xxxxx is the name
      >of the font-face. Placing TSC in the prefix (as in TAB fonts)
      >allow fonts of a given encoding all to appear together in
      >the font selection menu.
      >
      >Above suggestions are some starters to begin discussions.
      >So please feel free to comment on these and alternatives.
      >
      >Muthu Nedumaran
      >K. Kalyanasundaram
      >M. Manivannan
      >D. Sivaraj
      >Ravindran K. Paul
      >
      >
      >
      >_________________________________________________________________
      >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
      >
      >
      >
      >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      >tamilcomputing-unsubscribe@egroups.com
      >
      >
      >
      >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

      Kumar Mallikarjunan, Ph.D.
      Assistant Professor
      Biological Systems Engineering Department
      312 Seitz Hall, Virginia Tech
      Blacksburg, VA 24060
      Ph: 540-231-7937 Fax: 540-231-3199
      email: kumar@...
    • sivaraj_d@hotmail.com
      ... ... Kumar, we can upload the test files in the Files section of tscii Yahoo! Groups. This way it will be easily accessible to all. -Sivaraj.
      Message 2 of 9 , Sep 28, 2001
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        --- In tscii@y..., Kumar Mallikarjunan <kumar@v...> wrote:
        <cut>
        > I fully agree with an interim TSCII 1.7 soultion.
        >
        > If we all agree with this, I will send Keyman 5.0 keyboard files
        > to all of you to test. I just have them made today.

        Kumar, we can upload the test files in the Files section
        of 'tscii' Yahoo! Groups. This way it will be easily
        accessible to all.

        -Sivaraj.
      • Sivaraj D
        Dear Friends: One of the important decisions of INFITT announced at TI2001 conference was recognition of TAB and TSCII as the two most widely used 8-bit
        Message 3 of 9 , Sep 28, 2001
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          Dear Friends:

          One of the important decisions of INFITT announced at TI2001
          conference was recognition of TAB and TSCII as the two most
          widely used 8-bit bilingual glyph encodings on the Net and
          recommendation that these two encodings alone be used from now
          on in all Tamil information interchange through the Net
          (TAM recommended for cases where monolingual encoding usage
          is deemed necessary).

          It was also suggested during the meetings that, if there are
          any problems being faced in the existing encodings, the people
          with experience in those encodings may discuss those problems
          and suggest backward compatible changes to those encodings.

          It is time now for people involved in TSCII efforts to engage
          in discussions as to whether TSCII in the present form,
          version 1.6 (for details see the gif at
          http://www.geocities.com/Athens/5180/charset16.gif )
          is adequate for all our needs or should be revised.


          TSCII mailing list and TSCII website

          Discussions on TSCII revision will take place from now on in
          the mailing list <tscii@yahoogroups.com>. This will be the
          last posting on this topic copied to all Tamil mailing lists.

          Archives of the list <tscii@yahoogroups.com> will be open for
          all those interested to follow the discussions (currently
          archive open only to members but this will be changed).
          Those interested to participate in the TSCII revision
          discussions should sign up by visiting yahoo site
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tscii/

          We now have the domain name <www.tscii.org> registered and
          this site will be used to provide all information related to
          TSCII encoding. Existing site <www.tamil.net/tscii> will
          continue as a mirror site.


          Problems of TSCII encoding

          TSCII has been in use widely for nearly four years without
          major problems in several modes of information interchange
          such as emails, mailing lists, websites, pdf files and desktop
          publishing in three major computer platforms (windows,
          macintosh and unix).

          One persistent problem noticed during the past two years is
          handling of third uyir letter "i" (encoded slot # 173) in some
          of the key Microsoft application softwares running under
          Windows OS (e.g. Internet Explorer, Outlook Express and MS Word).
          Even today Sun Star Office package of Win OS handles TSCII
          cleanly. The above problem is due to over-riding of "i" at the
          unprotected slot (#173) of soft-hyphen of win-1252/ANSI schemes.

          One other documented problem noted is bad word-break that occurs
          (right after the uyirmei letter "thu" when Tamil Texts are used
          in justified format during DTP publishing in MS-Word and related
          softwares. This is the outcome of using shrink-wrap softwares
          created for English (Latin-1/win-1252 charset) language market
          for Tamil Language.

          If you know of any other problems of TSCII, please post them in
          the mailing list immediately.


          Proposed Revision of TSCII

          To accelerate the process, Muthu Nedumaran, Manivannan, Kalyan,
          Sivaraj and Ravindran Paul met at KL right after the TI2001
          conference and reviewed possible options to take care of the
          above problems.

          Given the large number of user-base and significant amount of
          Tamil database generated during the past four years for TSCII
          (e.g. Project Madurai, aaraamthinai website, numerous mailing
          lists), a preferred option is to go for some minor revision
          (version 1.7), one that will take care of the "i" problem.

          One possibility here is to move "i" to the vacant slot #254.
          Of course, such a shifting of a single "uyir" will break the
          natural ordering (neTungkaNNu varisai) of uyirs in the scheme.
          In our view, a single exception case can be adequately handled
          in search, sorting routines (Tamil sorting in any case cannot
          be done using that of ASCII).

          Keeping "i" in the current slot (173) but as a DEPRECATED glyph
          will allow access to the entire database generated till date.
          (A deprecated glyph is one that will be present in all font
          faces corresponding to revised TSCII but whose usage in any
          applications or OS is forbidden. Its presence is solely for
          backward compatibility reasons. Unicode revision of characters
          is done in this manner- no characters are deleted during
          revision).

          Regarding bad word-break occurring right after "thu", it is
          our opinion that this problem can be handled in dedicated Tamil
          software and does not require reshuffling of the entire slot
          allocations.

          It is also proposed that, font-faces prepared according to
          the revised (version 1.7) scheme will carry "TSC" as a prefix,
          rather than as suffix currently in use. Thus fonts of TSCII
          1.7 scheme are to be named as TSCxxxxx where xxxxx is the name
          of the font-face. Placing TSC in the prefix (as in TAB fonts)
          allow fonts of a given encoding all to appear together in
          the font selection menu.

          Above suggestions are some starters to begin discussions.
          So please feel free to comment on these and alternatives.

          Muthu Nedumaran
          K. Kalyanasundaram
          M. Manivannan
          D. Sivaraj
          Ravindran K. Paul



          _________________________________________________________________
          Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
        • K. Kalyanasundaram
          Dear Kumar: First an appeal. Please confine all discussions on TSCII revisions to a single list, this one so that the postings are not
          Message 4 of 9 , Oct 1, 2001
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            Dear Kumar:

            First an appeal. Please confine all discussions on TSCII revisions
            to a single list, this one <tscii@yahoogroups.com> so that the
            postings are not scattered. Those who are subscribed to this list
            should be directed to contact moderator of this list
            Manivannan <mmanivannan@...> to enable their subscription.

            > It is the time we should critically look into the problems.
            > I have seen reports of missing ¬ (A), the second uyir in
            > many situations. Although the word break problem with "thu" is
            > not a serious issue, it have to looked into as well.

            Can you please be more specific in describing the actual problem
            if any with the second uyir letter "A/aa" ( citing the application,
            software, platform, specific examples etc) ?

            > In this regard, working toward a better solution (TSCII 2.0),
            > may be we should open up the discussions in detail.
            >
            > I fully agree with an interim TSCII 1.7 soultion.

            Font encodings are very basic standards and we cannot afford
            to engage in revisions every now and then. There should be
            (will be?) only a single revision of TSCII for several years
            to come.

            If all known/existing problems with TSCII are documented now,
            then it will be easier to decide if the revision should be at
            the level of 1.7 or 2.0.

            If I may, I would like to propose a deadline for our discussions:

            end of Oct 2001 : round up discussions and agreement on the
            actual conent of revised TSCII (1.7 or 2.0)

            end of nov 2001 : distribution of relevant font faces, text editors,
            text convertors and end of field-testing of revised TSCII on all
            possible application scenarios

            1 Jan 2002 onwards: All TSCII usage on the Net be on the proposed
            revised TSCII scheme ONLY ;-)

            Kalyan

            PS: a point of clarification on the recent posting of Muguntharaj.
            only a single proposal A is on the table as regards to 1.7.
          • S.Muguntharaj
            Dear Kalyan , Thanks for pointing this out. The file for proposal B, is removed from the egroups page. The file charset17_a.gif which represents the proposed
            Message 5 of 9 , Oct 1, 2001
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              Dear Kalyan ,
              Thanks for pointing this out.
              The file for proposal B, is removed from the egroups
              page.
              The file "charset17_a.gif" which represents the
              proposed encoding as of now,is kept in the egroups
              page. If any other changes are proposed, let us update
              this file accordingly.

              Thanks for coming out with a time table for the
              standards revision.

              Anbudan,
              Mugunth
              Tamil Innaiya Erumbugal
              www.tamil.net/newtamil

              >
              > PS: a point of clarification on the recent posting
              > of Muguntharaj.
              > only a single proposal A is on the table as regards
              > to 1.7.
              >
              >
              > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > tscii-unsubscribe@egroups.com
              >
              >
              >
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              > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >


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            • Kalyanasundaram
              ... A small correction on the second line. It should read: Those who are interested to participate in (or simply follow up) TSCII revision discussions should
              Message 6 of 9 , Oct 1, 2001
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                Dear Friends:

                > First an appeal. Please confine all discussions on TSCII revisions
                > to a single list, this one <tscii@y...> so that the
                > postings are not scattered. Those who are subscribed to this list
                > should be directed to contact moderator of this list
                > Manivannan <mmanivannan@e...> to enable their subscription.

                A small correction on the second line. It should read: "Those who
                are interested to participate in (or simply follow up) TSCII revision
                discussions should be directed to contact moderator of this list
                Mr. Manivannan <mmanivannan@...> to enable their
                subscription.

                sorry for the errors.

                Kalyan
              • Sinnathurai Srivas
                There is a problem with cut/copy and paste (in windows). If we do a proper test of cut/copy and paste (of words, paragraphs, other combinations) we may
                Message 7 of 9 , Oct 2, 2001
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                  There is a problem with cut/copy and paste (in windows).

                  If we do a proper test of cut/copy and paste (of words, paragraphs, other
                  combinations) we may pinpoint which characters are causing problems.I think
                  the A/aa problem is related to this. This is a more critical problem than
                  the "I" problem.

                  Sinnathurai


                  >From: "K. Kalyanasundaram" <kalyan@...>
                  >Reply-To: tscii@yahoogroups.com
                  >To: tscii@yahoogroups.com
                  >Subject: Re: [tscii] Re: [tamilcomputing] Revision of TSCII encoding
                  >Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 17:54:18 +0200
                  >
                  >Dear Kumar:
                  >
                  >First an appeal. Please confine all discussions on TSCII revisions
                  >to a single list, this one <tscii@yahoogroups.com> so that the
                  >postings are not scattered. Those who are subscribed to this list
                  >should be directed to contact moderator of this list
                  >Manivannan <mmanivannan@...> to enable their subscription.
                  >
                  > > It is the time we should critically look into the problems.
                  > > I have seen reports of missing (A), the second uyir in
                  > > many situations. Although the word break problem with "thu" is
                  > > not a serious issue, it have to looked into as well.
                  >
                  >Can you please be more specific in describing the actual problem
                  >if any with the second uyir letter "A/aa" ( citing the application,
                  >software, platform, specific examples etc) ?
                  >
                  > > In this regard, working toward a better solution (TSCII 2.0),
                  > > may be we should open up the discussions in detail.
                  > >
                  > > I fully agree with an interim TSCII 1.7 soultion.
                  >
                  >Font encodings are very basic standards and we cannot afford
                  >to engage in revisions every now and then. There should be
                  >(will be?) only a single revision of TSCII for several years
                  >to come.
                  >
                  >If all known/existing problems with TSCII are documented now,
                  >then it will be easier to decide if the revision should be at
                  >the level of 1.7 or 2.0.
                  >
                  >If I may, I would like to propose a deadline for our discussions:
                  >
                  >end of Oct 2001 : round up discussions and agreement on the
                  >actual conent of revised TSCII (1.7 or 2.0)
                  >
                  >end of nov 2001 : distribution of relevant font faces, text editors,
                  > text convertors and end of field-testing of revised TSCII on all
                  > possible application scenarios
                  >
                  >1 Jan 2002 onwards: All TSCII usage on the Net be on the proposed
                  > revised TSCII scheme ONLY ;-)
                  >
                  >Kalyan
                  >
                  >PS: a point of clarification on the recent posting of Muguntharaj.
                  >only a single proposal A is on the table as regards to 1.7.
                  >


                  _________________________________________________________________
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                • njayaradha natarajan
                  I request the group to test the keyman keyboard. for 1.7. so that we can prepare a document for all the problem... Regards, Jayaradha ...
                  Message 8 of 9 , Oct 2, 2001
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                    I request the group to test the keyman keyboard. for
                    1.7. so that we can prepare a document for all the
                    problem...

                    Regards,
                    Jayaradha

                    --- "K. Kalyanasundaram" <kalyan@...> wrote:
                    > Dear Kumar:
                    >
                    > First an appeal. Please confine all discussions on
                    > TSCII revisions
                    > to a single list, this one <tscii@yahoogroups.com>
                    > so that the
                    > postings are not scattered. Those who are
                    > subscribed to this list
                    > should be directed to contact moderator of this list
                    > Manivannan <mmanivannan@...> to enable
                    > their subscription.
                    >
                    > > It is the time we should critically look into the
                    > problems.
                    > > I have seen reports of missing � (A), the second
                    > uyir in
                    > > many situations. Although the word break problem
                    > with "thu" is
                    > > not a serious issue, it have to looked into as
                    > well.
                    >
                    > Can you please be more specific in describing the
                    > actual problem
                    > if any with the second uyir letter "A/aa" ( citing
                    > the application,
                    > software, platform, specific examples etc) ?
                    >
                    > > In this regard, working toward a better solution
                    > (TSCII 2.0),
                    > > may be we should open up the discussions in
                    > detail.
                    > >
                    > > I fully agree with an interim TSCII 1.7 soultion.
                    >
                    > Font encodings are very basic standards and we
                    > cannot afford
                    > to engage in revisions every now and then. There
                    > should be
                    > (will be?) only a single revision of TSCII for
                    > several years
                    > to come.
                    >
                    > If all known/existing problems with TSCII are
                    > documented now,
                    > then it will be easier to decide if the revision
                    > should be at
                    > the level of 1.7 or 2.0.
                    >
                    > If I may, I would like to propose a deadline for our
                    > discussions:
                    >
                    > end of Oct 2001 : round up discussions and agreement
                    > on the
                    > actual conent of revised TSCII (1.7 or 2.0)
                    >
                    > end of nov 2001 : distribution of relevant font
                    > faces, text editors,
                    > text convertors and end of field-testing of
                    > revised TSCII on all
                    > possible application scenarios
                    >
                    > 1 Jan 2002 onwards: All TSCII usage on the Net be
                    > on the proposed
                    > revised TSCII scheme ONLY ;-)
                    >
                    > Kalyan
                    >
                    > PS: a point of clarification on the recent posting
                    > of Muguntharaj.
                    > only a single proposal A is on the table as regards
                    > to 1.7.
                    >
                    >


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                  • Muguntharaj
                    Dear Kalyan/other TSCII coordinators, As per our plan we should have finalised the discussions and should have agreed upon the actual content of the Revised
                    Message 9 of 9 , Nov 11, 2001
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                      Dear Kalyan/other TSCII coordinators,
                      As per our plan we should have finalised the discussions and should
                      have agreed upon the actual content of the Revised TSCII.

                      The coordinators please clarify if the proposed TSCII revision is
                      finalised....

                      -Mugunth


                      --- In tscii@y..., "K. Kalyanasundaram" <kalyan@s...> wrote:
                      > Dear Kumar:
                      >
                      > First an appeal. Please confine all discussions on TSCII revisions
                      > to a single list, this one <tscii@y...> so that the
                      > postings are not scattered. Those who are subscribed to this list
                      > should be directed to contact moderator of this list
                      > Manivannan <mmanivannan@e...> to enable their subscription.
                      >
                      > > It is the time we should critically look into the problems.
                      > > I have seen reports of missing ¬ (A), the second uyir in
                      > > many situations. Although the word break problem with "thu" is
                      > > not a serious issue, it have to looked into as well.
                      >
                      > Can you please be more specific in describing the actual problem
                      > if any with the second uyir letter "A/aa" ( citing the application,
                      > software, platform, specific examples etc) ?
                      >
                      > > In this regard, working toward a better solution (TSCII 2.0),
                      > > may be we should open up the discussions in detail.
                      > >
                      > > I fully agree with an interim TSCII 1.7 soultion.
                      >
                      > Font encodings are very basic standards and we cannot afford
                      > to engage in revisions every now and then. There should be
                      > (will be?) only a single revision of TSCII for several years
                      > to come.
                      >
                      > If all known/existing problems with TSCII are documented now,
                      > then it will be easier to decide if the revision should be at
                      > the level of 1.7 or 2.0.
                      >
                      > If I may, I would like to propose a deadline for our discussions:
                      >
                      > end of Oct 2001 : round up discussions and agreement on the
                      > actual conent of revised TSCII (1.7 or 2.0)
                      >
                      > end of nov 2001 : distribution of relevant font faces, text editors,
                      > text convertors and end of field-testing of revised TSCII on all
                      > possible application scenarios
                      >
                      > 1 Jan 2002 onwards: All TSCII usage on the Net be on the proposed
                      > revised TSCII scheme ONLY ;-)
                      >
                      > Kalyan
                      >
                      > PS: a point of clarification on the recent posting of Muguntharaj.
                      > only a single proposal A is on the table as regards to 1.7.
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