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RE: Re: [T TBS R] Crankcase coolant crisis

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  • petermholmes
    I'm with Niles.  Are you sure it's antifreeze and oil?   --- In triumphthunderbirdsportriders@yahoogroups.com, <nlr@...> wrote: On Sep
    Message 1 of 14 , Sep 1, 2013
      I'm with Niles.  Are you sure it's antifreeze and oil?   --- In triumphthunderbirdsportriders@yahoogroups.com, <nlr@...> wrote: On Sep 1, 2013, at 6:22 AM, < chris@... <mailto: chris@... >>
      < chris@... <mailto: chris@... >> wrote:

      So, due to kids, starting a business, building a house etc. my '98 sat in a friends garage for the last 4 years. Far enough away that I couldn't get over to start it like I knew I should have. It was running a little hot the last time it did run, but not overly. Yesterday I set out to revive it, flushed fluids (coolant was empty), checked and cleaned the bowls, Cylinder 1 bowl had green fluid and residue in it, "anitifreeze?" I thought, but couldn't imagine how, or maybe water in gas corroding a brass jet. Oh well, moved on... Emptied the tank and added new gas. Went to start it to warm up the engine and then do an oil change. No start, heard gurgling from the crankcase vent tube. Second sign of what was to come. Knowing something was wrong inside I went ahead and drained the oil. 10 quarts of fast running coffee-like fluid later it was finally empty. So coolant in the engine and tons of it. I'm guessing head gasket, or warped head, maybe pump seals. Still was shocked to see so much of it in the case. And it was so thoroughly blended together, not separated like I would have expected having sat so long. Next I plan to pull the plugs and look for water in a cylinder (betting money on #1 of course), and if there's not a flooded cylinder I'd run compression tests on each before dismantling for a visual on the gasket and decks. Never had the pump apart so I'd not know what to look for there (o-rings on the shaft?). Any advice, or similar experiences appreciated. Especially wondering if a full teardown is mandatory at this point, gotta think it is...

      That is really weird. I'm not doubting you, but I can't see how coolant could get into the engine unless one of the wet liners rusted through. If it was the head gasket, it wouldn't leak unless it was under pressure. Are you sure it wasn't fuel mixed in with the oil? A stuck carb float would let gravity fill the crank with gas is the tap was malfunctioning. And both of those are more likely with a bike that is sitting for a long time. Also petrol and oil are miscible, unlike water and oil. Hopefully better minds than mine will have some ideas.

      Good luck and please keep us posted, 'cause I would really like to know.







      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • James Tennier
      Ouch! Not been there nor done that.(eXACTLY) But I feel your pain. I m thinking whole rebuild is in order sir. CLEANLINESS being your guide. Reason? Glad you
      Message 2 of 14 , Sep 1, 2013
        Ouch! Not been there nor done that.(eXACTLY) But I feel your pain. I'm thinking whole rebuild is in order sir. "CLEANLINESS being your guide."
        Reason?
        Glad you asked.
        3 years ago I took a 79 OLDS 403 to a "very long lived, reputable Adams Custom Engines" in Sparks NV. 3 years later, first flat cam, rebuild again, 2nd rebuild, thrust bearing failure immediately, 3rd rebuilt, collapsed #8 piston and finally, 4th rebuild, 7/8 rod bearings wearing together at crank (bent) and "smoked" #7 cylinder, showed how not to rebuild an engine. They never "cleaned things properly!!!
        To wit: $8965.00 estimate for 403 flywheel hp turned into $20,000.00 plus and an mt engine bay after all this time , awaiting arbitration and hopefully a full refund which I get to devide with my attorney.
        So many lessons here but this all started with collapsed lifter(s) and improperly broken in flat tappet cam, followed by BY "GET THE FUCKER DONE AND OUT OF HERE!"

        Hope you have better luck than I. Given my druthers, I'd have bought a crate engine from Summit right here in Reno and been done with it.

        The Thunderbird engine, with some money, a willingness to buy some tools and a lot of time and a Haynes manual, can be a learning experience for you if you are so inclined. I did my first Honda 250 Scrambler in 1967. Do not leave the dipstick in place when marring the top half of the case to the bottom as the dipstick gets wedged in the 2 halves and can't be pulled to add oil. Ask me how I know? Life is a learning experience. What we do with what we learn makes all the difference.

        ________________________________
        From: "chris@..." <chris@...>
        To: triumphthunderbirdsportriders@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sunday, September 1, 2013 6:22 AM
        Subject: [T TBS R] Crankcase coolant crisis



         
        So, due to kids, starting a business, building a house etc. my '98 sat in a friends garage for the last 4 years. Far enough away that I couldn't get over to start it like I knew I should have. It was running a little hot the last time it did run, but not overly. Yesterday I set out to revive it, flushed fluids (coolant was empty), checked and cleaned the bowls, Cylinder 1 bowl had green fluid and residue in it, "anitifreeze?" I thought, but couldn't imagine how, or maybe water in gas corroding a brass jet. Oh well, moved on... Emptied the tank and added new gas. Went to start it to warm up the engine and then do an oil change. No start, heard gurgling from the  crankcase vent tube. Second sign of what was to come. Knowing something was wrong inside I went ahead and drained the oil. 10 quarts of fast running coffee-like fluid later it was finally empty. So coolant in the engine and tons of it. I'm guessing head gasket, or warped head, maybe pump seals.
        Still was shocked to see so much of it in the case. And it was so thoroughly blended together, not separated like I would have expected having sat so long. Next I plan to pull the plugs and look for water in a cylinder (betting money on #1 of course), and if there's not a flooded cylinder I'd run compression tests on each before dismantling for a visual on the gasket and decks. Never had the pump apart so I'd not know what to look for there (o-rings on the shaft?). Any advice, or similar experiences appreciated. Especially wondering if a full teardown is mandatory at this point, gotta think it is...


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Triumphmotorcycleman Triple
        I ve experienced the petrol in the oil, 18 litres came out of the crankcase. I ve replaced the petrol tap and cleaned the float needles, just cleaned them as
        Message 3 of 14 , Sep 1, 2013
          I've experienced the petrol in the oil, 18 litres came out of the crankcase.
          I've replaced the petrol tap and cleaned the float needles, just cleaned them as they only did 40.000 km and looked fine.
          If you think there's cooling liquid in the oil, there's also a possibility that the seal between the liner and cankcase is distorted.
          I had some serious trouble a couple of years ago with cooling liquid in the oil due to a broken headbolt, the engine went hot as I lost the a great deal of the liquid due to the fact that the o-ring, positioned at the waterpump was used twice and therefor didn't seal  enough.
          As the head bolt was broken because of rust, and the head gasket couldn't hold the pressure and the heat, the head gasket was blown.
          2 other head bolts were also attacked by rust so I replaced the lot just to be sure.
          Asked a few dealers about the head bolts and you've guessed it already "never heard of it before"

          If you like I can post a few pictures of the broken head bolt.

          Regards,

          Koos


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • grificonius
          You know, fuel makes so much more sense--I don't know why I assumed coolant. The mixture should have totally clued me in it was thinned out, and coffee
          Message 4 of 14 , Sep 1, 2013
            You know, fuel makes so much more sense--I don't know why I assumed coolant. The mixture should have totally clued me in it was thinned out, and coffee color instead of green (only the carb had green residue). I'm pretty sure you guys are dead on, I did notice the petcock had been left open when I went to remove the tank. I've saved what came out so I can inspect it closer to be sure. So I guess my next question, would fuel in the oil necessitate a complete rebuild. I'm sure it would act as light oil and bleed out bearings etc. But wonder if that would be fixed with a oil refill and some cycling for the assembly for instance? Thanks for the responses, I'll drop I line when I know more. Grif --- In triumphthunderbirdsportriders@yahoogroups.com, <triumphtriple900@...> wrote: I've experienced the petrol in the oil, 18 litres came out of the crankcase.
            I've replaced the petrol tap and cleaned the float needles, just cleaned them as they only did 40.000 km and looked fine.
            If you think there's cooling liquid in the oil, there's also a possibility that the seal between the liner and cankcase is distorted.
            I had some serious trouble a couple of years ago with cooling liquid in the oil due to a broken headbolt, the engine went hot as I lost the a great deal of the liquid due to the fact that the o-ring, positioned at the waterpump was used twice and therefor didn't seal  enough.
            As the head bolt was broken because of rust, and the head gasket couldn't hold the pressure and the heat, the head gasket was blown.
            2 other head bolts were also attacked by rust so I replaced the lot just to be sure.
            Asked a few dealers about the head bolts and you've guessed it already "never heard of it before"

            If you like I can post a few pictures of the broken head bolt.

            Regards,

            Koos


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • grificonius
            Koos, after your 18L petrol/oil mix, what was the course of action? Grif   --- In triumphthunderbirdsportriders@yahoogroups.com, <chris@...> wrote:
            Message 5 of 14 , Sep 1, 2013
              Koos, after your 18L petrol/oil mix, what was the course of action? Grif   --- In triumphthunderbirdsportriders@yahoogroups.com, <chris@...> wrote: You know, fuel makes so much more sense--I don't know why I assumed coolant. The mixture should have totally clued me in it was thinned out, and coffee color instead of green (only the carb had green residue). I'm pretty sure you guys are dead on, I did notice the petcock had been left open when I went to remove the tank. I've saved what came out so I can inspect it closer to be sure. So I guess my next question, would fuel in the oil necessitate a complete rebuild. I'm sure it would act as light oil and bleed out bearings etc. But wonder if that would be fixed with a oil refill and some cycling for the assembly for instance? Thanks for the responses, I'll drop I line when I know more. Grif --- In triumphthunderbirdsportriders@yahoogroups.com , <triumphtriple900@...> wrote: I've experienced the petrol in the oil, 18 litres came out of the crankcase.
              I've replaced the petrol tap and cleaned the float needles, just cleaned them as they only did 40.000 km and looked fine.
              If you think there's cooling liquid in the oil, there's also a possibility that the seal between the liner and cankcase is distorted.
              I had some serious trouble a couple of years ago with cooling liquid in the oil due to a broken headbolt, the engine went hot as I lost the a great deal of the liquid due to the fact that the o-ring, positioned at the waterpump was used twice and therefor didn't seal  enough.
              As the head bolt was broken because of rust, and the head gasket couldn't hold the pressure and the heat, the head gasket was blown.
              2 other head bolts were also attacked by rust so I replaced the lot just to be sure.
              Asked a few dealers about the head bolts and you've guessed it already "never heard of it before"

              If you like I can post a few pictures of the broken head bolt.

              Regards,

              Koos


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • petermholmes
              I'd try just replacing the oil.  Had the same thing happen on my Legend (in my case stuck float, fixed eventually by rapping the carb bowls with the
              Message 6 of 14 , Sep 1, 2013
                I'd try just replacing the oil.  Had the same thing happen on my Legend (in my case stuck float, fixed eventually by rapping the carb bowls with the plastic end of a screwdriver) with no long term ill effects whatsoever. --- In triumphthunderbirdsportriders@yahoogroups.com, <chris@...> wrote: You know, fuel makes so much more sense--I don't know why I assumed coolant. The mixture should have totally clued me in it was thinned out, and coffee color instead of green (only the carb had green residue). I'm pretty sure you guys are dead on, I did notice the petcock had been left open when I went to remove the tank. I've saved what came out so I can inspect it closer to be sure. So I guess my next question, would fuel in the oil necessitate a complete rebuild. I'm sure it would act as light oil and bleed out bearings etc. But wonder if that would be fixed with a oil refill and some cycling for the assembly for instance? Thanks for the responses, I'll drop I line when I know more. Grif --- In triumphthunderbirdsportriders@yahoogroups.com , <triumphtriple900@...> wrote: I've experienced the petrol in the oil, 18 litres came out of the crankcase.
                I've replaced the petrol tap and cleaned the float needles, just cleaned them as they only did 40.000 km and looked fine.
                If you think there's cooling liquid in the oil, there's also a possibility that the seal between the liner and cankcase is distorted.
                I had some serious trouble a couple of years ago with cooling liquid in the oil due to a broken headbolt, the engine went hot as I lost the a great deal of the liquid due to the fact that the o-ring, positioned at the waterpump was used twice and therefor didn't seal  enough.
                As the head bolt was broken because of rust, and the head gasket couldn't hold the pressure and the heat, the head gasket was blown.
                2 other head bolts were also attacked by rust so I replaced the lot just to be sure.
                Asked a few dealers about the head bolts and you've guessed it already "never heard of it before"

                If you like I can post a few pictures of the broken head bolt.

                Regards,

                Koos


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • bsarocket3a75
                Folks, -If all that happened was fuel in the crankcase and the engine never started, then change oil and filter a few times, running the engine a few minutes
                Message 7 of 14 , Sep 2, 2013
                  Folks,
                  -If all that happened was fuel in the crankcase and the engine never started, then change oil and filter a few times, running the engine a few minutes in between filter and oil changes. Note the color and smell and viscosity of the oil each time you change it. Three times recommended.


                  -The concern here is where did the coolant go? Regardless of mine or anyone's theories an analysis of the the original oil will identify if there is coolant in the crankcase. $20 - 40 for a full spectrum oil analysis. Get with an oil supplier, good engine shop or get a mail in kit online.


                  -If there is coolant found in the oil? You will need to look at other elements of the analysis, like wear metals, to determine engine damage. Of course if you feel that you can identify the physical entrance of the coolant and correct that and the damage to the engine is negligible, then you might get by without a rebuild.


                  -the member that wrote in about the old engine he rebuilt several times is pretty telling of any engine that has sat and not been run or more importantly, run with fuel in the oil which can cause extreme wear.


                  -Recommend that if things look bad or unsure, replace with a good used engine from a salvage yard with some guarantee. They may take your bomb in on trade.


                  Good luck!


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Triumphmotorcycleman Triple
                  Mmmh, I do recall most of it haha. Actually I didn t do that much apart from cleaning the float needles, new oil, filter and new petrol tap. The 18 litres of
                  Message 8 of 14 , Sep 2, 2013
                    Mmmh, I do recall most of it haha.

                    Actually I didn't do that much apart from cleaning the float needles, new oil, filter and new petrol tap.
                    The 18 litres of fuel /oil mixture has been used by my Trident 750 from 1994, too expensive to waste as gas /petrol overhere is about 2 dollars  per litre. What I did is take 2 litres of the waste fuel and 18 litres of good fuel and mix it, no problem.
                    Bought a new tap from a Yamaha 425 or 450, fits as good as
                    the 3 times more expensive Triumph part. Only thing different is that
                    the fuel line has to be on the other side of the tap.
                    Apparently the
                    petroltap is not closed when they get older, so they leak to the carbs
                    and when the needles aren't closed the crankcase will be filled up with
                    petrol.
                    At first i didn't realise there was something wron and tried to start the engine. While starting fuel was seeping out of the airfilter/box.
                    That was already a indication something was wrong.
                    I had heard about petrol in the crankcase and thought that it was my turn and checked it.
                    The only thing I did is get the oil filter out and drain the crankcase, left it for a few months to dry and put the new oil in.
                    At first I was a bit afraid that the bearings and bushes and liners etc. had been too long without oil, but on the other end a mixture from 16 litres of petrol and 4 litres of oil is still oily and hopefully it didn't do any harm.

                    All the best,

                    Koos




                    ________________________________
                    From: "chris@..." <chris@...>
                    To: triumphthunderbirdsportriders@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, September 2, 2013 3:12 AM
                    Subject: [T TBS R] RE: Crankcase coolant crisis



                     
                    Koos, after your 18L petrol/oil mix, what was the course of action? Grif   --- In triumphthunderbirdsportriders@yahoogroups.com, <chris@...> wrote: You know, fuel makes so much more sense--I don't know why I assumed coolant. The mixture should have totally clued me in it was thinned out, and coffee color instead of green (only the carb had green residue). I'm pretty sure you guys are dead on, I did notice the petcock had been left open when I went to remove the tank. I've saved what came out so I can inspect it closer to be sure. So I guess my next question, would fuel in the oil necessitate a complete rebuild. I'm sure it would act as light oil and bleed out bearings etc. But wonder if that would be fixed with a oil refill and some cycling for the assembly for instance? Thanks for the responses, I'll drop I line when I know more. Grif --- In triumphthunderbirdsportriders@yahoogroups.com , <triumphtriple900@...> wrote: I've experienced the petrol in the
                    oil, 18 litres came out of the crankcase.
                    I've replaced the petrol tap and cleaned the float needles, just cleaned them as they only did 40.000 km and looked fine.
                    If you think there's cooling liquid in the oil, there's also a possibility that the seal between the liner and cankcase is distorted.
                    I had some serious trouble a couple of years ago with cooling liquid in the oil due to a broken headbolt, the engine went hot as I lost the a great deal of the liquid due to the fact that the o-ring, positioned at the waterpump was used twice and therefor didn't seal  enough.
                    As the head bolt was broken because of rust, and the head gasket couldn't hold the pressure and the heat, the head gasket was blown.
                    2 other head bolts were also attacked by rust so I replaced the lot just to be sure.
                    Asked a few dealers about the head bolts and you've guessed it already "never heard of it before"

                    If you like I can post a few pictures of the broken head bolt.

                    Regards,

                    Koos


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Triumphmotorcycleman Triple
                    Forgot about the petrol tap / petcock:
                    Message 9 of 14 , Sep 2, 2013
                      Forgot about the petrol tap / petcock:

                      http://www.ebay.com/itm/Genuine-YAMAHA-WR450F-2003-2006-Fuel-Petcock-Gas-Tank-Switch-Shutoff-Valve-/400557097550?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item5d4310424e&vxp=mtr



                      ________________________________
                      From: Triumphmotorcycleman Triple <triumphtriple900@...>
                      To: "triumphthunderbirdsportriders@yahoogroups.com" <triumphthunderbirdsportriders@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Monday, September 2, 2013 9:44 PM
                      Subject: Re: [T TBS R] RE: Crankcase coolant crisis



                       
                      Mmmh, I do recall most of it haha.

                      Actually I didn't do that much apart from cleaning the float needles, new oil, filter and new petrol tap.
                      The 18 litres of fuel /oil mixture has been used by my Trident 750 from 1994, too expensive to waste as gas /petrol overhere is about 2 dollars  per litre. What I did is take 2 litres of the waste fuel and 18 litres of good fuel and mix it, no problem.
                      Bought a new tap from a Yamaha 425 or 450, fits as good as
                      the 3 times more expensive Triumph part. Only thing different is that
                      the fuel line has to be on the other side of the tap.
                      Apparently the
                      petroltap is not closed when they get older, so they leak to the carbs
                      and when the needles aren't closed the crankcase will be filled up with
                      petrol.
                      At first i didn't realise there was something wron and tried to start the engine. While starting fuel was seeping out of the airfilter/box.
                      That was already a indication something was wrong.
                      I had heard about petrol in the crankcase and thought that it was my turn and checked it.
                      The only thing I did is get the oil filter out and drain the crankcase, left it for a few months to dry and put the new oil in.
                      At first I was a bit afraid that the bearings and bushes and liners etc. had been too long without oil, but on the other end a mixture from 16 litres of petrol and 4 litres of oil is still oily and hopefully it didn't do any harm.

                      All the best,

                      Koos

                      ________________________________
                      From: "chris@..." <chris@...>
                      To: triumphthunderbirdsportriders@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Monday, September 2, 2013 3:12 AM
                      Subject: [T TBS R] RE: Crankcase coolant crisis


                       
                      Koos, after your 18L petrol/oil mix, what was the course of action? Grif   --- In triumphthunderbirdsportriders@yahoogroups.com, <chris@...> wrote: You know, fuel makes so much more sense--I don't know why I assumed coolant. The mixture should have totally clued me in it was thinned out, and coffee color instead of green (only the carb had green residue). I'm pretty sure you guys are dead on, I did notice the petcock had been left open when I went to remove the tank. I've saved what came out so I can inspect it closer to be sure. So I guess my next question, would fuel in the oil necessitate a complete rebuild. I'm sure it would act as light oil and bleed out bearings etc. But wonder if that would be fixed with a oil refill and some cycling for the assembly for instance? Thanks for the responses, I'll drop I line when I know more. Grif --- In triumphthunderbirdsportriders@yahoogroups.com , <triumphtriple900@...> wrote: I've experienced the petrol in the
                      oil, 18 litres came out of the crankcase.
                      I've replaced the petrol tap and cleaned the float needles, just cleaned them as they only did 40.000 km and looked fine.
                      If you think there's cooling liquid in the oil, there's also a possibility that the seal between the liner and cankcase is distorted.
                      I had some serious trouble a couple of years ago with cooling liquid in the oil due to a broken headbolt, the engine went hot as I lost the a great deal of the liquid due to the fact that the o-ring, positioned at the waterpump was used twice and therefor didn't seal  enough.
                      As the head bolt was broken because of rust, and the head gasket couldn't hold the pressure and the heat, the head gasket was blown.
                      2 other head bolts were also attacked by rust so I replaced the lot just to be sure.
                      Asked a few dealers about the head bolts and you've guessed it already "never heard of it before"

                      If you like I can post a few pictures of the broken head bolt.

                      Regards,

                      Koos

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Peter T
                      Apologies if I missed a detail in this thread but did you Try to drain the coolant (like near the water pump (search for instructions)? Of none then some
                      Message 10 of 14 , Sep 3, 2013
                        Apologies if I missed a detail in this thread but did you
                        Try to drain the coolant (like near the water pump (search for instructions)?

                        Of none then some concerns. If you get a decent amount you are probably due for
                        A change anyway. Again I didn't see any confirmation that there isn't any coolant whatsoever. Proper test noted below is a good idea unless you get full spec amount of coolant out of engine. For grins check around the print seal in front of the water pump for signs of failure? Maybe (hopefully) it slowly leaked out? Reaching!!!

                        --- In triumphthunderbirdsportriders@yahoogroups.com, CHERGO@... wrote:
                        >
                        > Folks,
                        > -If all that happened was fuel in the crankcase and the engine never started, then change oil and filter a few times, running the engine a few minutes in between filter and oil changes. Note the color and smell and viscosity of the oil each time you change it. Three times recommended.
                        >
                        >
                        > -The concern here is where did the coolant go? Regardless of mine or anyone's theories an analysis of the the original oil will identify if there is coolant in the crankcase. $20 - 40 for a full spectrum oil analysis. Get with an oil supplier, good engine shop or get a mail in kit online.
                        >
                        >
                        > -If there is coolant found in the oil? You will need to look at other elements of the analysis, like wear metals, to determine engine damage. Of course if you feel that you can identify the physical entrance of the coolant and correct that and the damage to the engine is negligible, then you might get by without a rebuild.
                        >
                        >
                        > -the member that wrote in about the old engine he rebuilt several times is pretty telling of any engine that has sat and not been run or more importantly, run with fuel in the oil which can cause extreme wear.
                        >
                        >
                        > -Recommend that if things look bad or unsure, replace with a good used engine from a salvage yard with some guarantee. They may take your bomb in on trade.
                        >
                        >
                        > Good luck!
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • grificonius
                        Completed two oil changes, with some easy runtime in between and had to replace the ignition sensor as it had separated from its mooring, certainly due to
                        Message 11 of 14 , Oct 8, 2013
                          Completed two oil changes, with some easy runtime in between and had to replace the ignition sensor as it had separated from its mooring, certainly due to bathing in fuel/oil.Runs great now. Thanks for the advice guys.
                        • Gary Gavin
                          Happy that it turned out well. Gare sent from third stone from the sun
                          Message 12 of 14 , Oct 8, 2013
                            Happy that it turned out well.

                            Gare'
                            sent from third stone from the sun

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