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Re: Matsuse Seisei : autumn sky

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  • Greve Gabi
    Matsuse Seisei 松瀬清々 ... まつせ せいせい ... Thanks for this article, Hugh san. I have not much to add, just for the writing of the English, I
    Message 1 of 2 , Aug 7, 2006
      Matsuse Seisei 松瀬清々 ... まつせ せいせい
      > 〔本名、弥三郎。別号、無心・老葉峰〕

      > 秋空の深みに吾を見出しつ

      > aki sora no fukami ni ware o mi-idashitsu
      >
      > Deep in the sky of autumn, I find myself.

      Thanks for this article, Hugh san.
      I have not much to add, just for the writing of the English, I prefer small
      letters and no fullstop at the end ...

      in the depth
      of the autumn sky
      I find myself / I discover myself


      the clear autumn sky is often used as .. ten takashi .. , the high sky 天高し ,
      in haiku
      http://worldkigodatabase.blogspot.com/2005/03/clear-autumn-sky-ten-takashi.html


      GABI

      .........................................................

      >
      > TWENTIETH CENTURY JAPANESE PHILOSOPHICAL HAIKU: XI I Matsuse Seisei
      >
      > TWELFTH: Matsuse Seisei (1869 - 1939)
      >
      > Seisei was a contemporary of Shiki. I have not dated this haiku which
      > Seisei illustrated, and thus I do not know if it corresponds to the
      > early Shiki period. I concede that I cannot completely read Seisei's
      > handwriting on the side of the illustration.
      >
      > There are 15 translations of his haiku listed in
      > Modern Japanese Literature in Translation: A Bibliography.
      > Kodansha 1979 ISBN 0 87 011 3399]
      > Blyth translated 5 of them.
      >
      > I make two observations.
      >
      > (a) If there is shasei theory here, it is the metaphysics of Kyoshi.
      > (b) There is a strong influence of Zen philosophy.
      >
      > Are we to conclude from this that the haiku belongs to the post-Shiki
      > period and has been influenced by the poets, Kyoshi, Hekigodô and
      > Seisensui, and the Zen philosophy of Daisetz Teitaro Suzuki?
      >
      > aki sora no fukami ni ware wo mi-idashitsu
      >
      > Deep in the sky of autumn, I find myself.
      >
      > Technical details:
      > 4131 4192 no 3206 ni 2028 wo 5522 445 shitsu
      >
      > Seisei uses "fukami" as a noun. There is a depth in another observed
      > sky with which he identifies. He makes this comment in his notes
      > accompanying the haiku. This is much more Kyoshi than Shiki.
      > It is fashionable in modern English language haiku to pretend that
      > personal pronouns are not necessary because they get between the reader
      > and the poet's understanding. Now in Seisei's haiku he has
      > deliberately used "ware." He has made personal identity explicit. He
      > wants to speak of the I and the self. English language readers can
      > verify this by looking up kanji 3206 for the inner depth of the sky,
      > and kanji 2028 for I = ego = self.
      >
      > Now this haiku is more subtle than the friends of Dr Suzuki will
      > understand. Looking at the characters 5522 and 445, readers will find
      > that Seisei does not mean passive realization [the pretentious haiku
      > moment is possibly more than 50 years in the future] but an active
      > pursuit with intent. Are we to believe that Seisei has convinced
      > himself, falsely, that his true identity is other than himself?
      >
      > There is a remarkable contrast between the philosophical analysis of
      > identity and personal identity in Western Philosophy and the approach
      > taken in Zen Philosophy.
      >
      > In Western thought we might begin a painstaking search, property by
      > property, to find if two things are identical at a given period of time.
      >
      > a = b ⇐ ⇒ ∨F(Fa → Fb)
      >
      > Even with more difficulty we might attempt to find if a given
      > consciousness can be related to the same person over a period of time.
      > Even granted that the consciousness of a person is privileged to that
      > person rather than to another, we will still have great difficulties in
      > personal identity. No such niceties worry the Suzuki theorist; we just
      > claim "pure experience" and pretend that when it is achieved mental
      > acts will cease. Now the self is the other.
      >
      > How much nonsense has been written about these alleged identities:
      > Bashô becomes one with the frog pond, Sensei becomes one with the deep
      > sky. Suddenly, the poets snap out of it and become discrete again. But
      > too late, the haiku has been crystallised as an eternal moment. No
      > logic is permitted or even necessary.
      >
      > I believe that Seisei has written a philosophical haiku. Is he saying
      > more than I have admitted, yet much less than Suzuki demands?
      >
      > Hugh Bygott
      > __________________________________________________________


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Sakuo Nakamura
      This is nice haiku, and your haiku translation is natural. in the depth of the autumn sky I find myself ~Gabi sakuo. ... From: translatinghaiku@yahoogroups.com
      Message 2 of 2 , Aug 7, 2006
        This is nice haiku, and your haiku translation is natural.

        in the depth
        of the autumn sky
        I find myself
        ~Gabi

        sakuo.
        -----Original Message-----
        From: translatinghaiku@yahoogroups.com [mailto:translatinghaiku@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Greve Gabi
        Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 4:12 PM
        To: translatinghaiku@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [Translating Haiku] Re: Matsuse Seisei : autumn sky

        Matsuse Seisei 松瀬清々 ... まつせ せいせい
        > 〔本名、弥三郎。別号、無心・老葉峰〕

        > 秋空の深みに吾を見出しつ

        > aki sora no fukami ni ware o mi-idashitsu
        >
        > Deep in the sky of autumn, I find myself.

        Thanks for this article, Hugh san.
        I have not much to add, just for the writing of the English, I prefer small letters and no fullstop at the end ...

        in the depth
        of the autumn sky
        I find myself / I discover myself

        the clear autumn sky is often used as .. ten takashi .. , the high sky 天高し , in haiku http://worldkigodatabase.blogspot.com/2005/03/clear-autumn-sky-ten-takashi.html <http://worldkigodatabase.blogspot.com/2005/03/clear-autumn-sky-ten-takashi.html>

        <http://worldkigodatabase.blogspot.com/2005/03/clear-autumn-sky-ten-takashi.html <http://worldkigodatabase.blogspot.com/2005/03/clear-autumn-sky-ten-takashi.html> >

        GABI

        .........................................................

        >
        > TWENTIETH CENTURY JAPANESE PHILOSOPHICAL HAIKU: XI I Matsuse Seisei
        >
        > TWELFTH: Matsuse Seisei (1869 - 1939)
        >
        > Seisei was a contemporary of Shiki. I have not dated this haiku which
        > Seisei illustrated, and thus I do not know if it corresponds to the
        > early Shiki period. I concede that I cannot completely read Seisei's
        > handwriting on the side of the illustration.
        >
        > There are 15 translations of his haiku listed in Modern Japanese
        > Literature in Translation: A Bibliography.
        > Kodansha 1979 ISBN 0 87 011 3399]
        > Blyth translated 5 of them.
        >
        > I make two observations.
        >
        > (a) If there is shasei theory here, it is the metaphysics of Kyoshi.
        > (b) There is a strong influence of Zen philosophy.
        >
        > Are we to conclude from this that the haiku belongs to the post-Shiki
        > period and has been influenced by the poets, Kyoshi, Hekigodô and
        > Seisensui, and the Zen philosophy of Daisetz Teitaro Suzuki?
        >
        > aki sora no fukami ni ware wo mi-idashitsu
        >
        > Deep in the sky of autumn, I find myself.
        >
        > Technical details:
        > 4131 4192 no 3206 ni 2028 wo 5522 445 shitsu
        >
        > Seisei uses "fukami" as a noun. There is a depth in another observed
        > sky with which he identifies. He makes this comment in his notes
        > accompanying the haiku. This is much more Kyoshi than Shiki.
        > It is fashionable in modern English language haiku to pretend that
        > personal pronouns are not necessary because they get between the
        > reader and the poet's understanding. Now in Seisei's haiku he has
        > deliberately used "ware." He has made personal identity explicit. He
        > wants to speak of the I and the self. English language readers can
        > verify this by looking up kanji 3206 for the inner depth of the sky,
        > and kanji 2028 for I = ego = self.
        >
        > Now this haiku is more subtle than the friends of Dr Suzuki will
        > understand. Looking at the characters 5522 and 445, readers will find
        > that Seisei does not mean passive realization [the pretentious haiku
        > moment is possibly more than 50 years in the future] but an active
        > pursuit with intent. Are we to believe that Seisei has convinced
        > himself, falsely, that his true identity is other than himself?
        >
        > There is a remarkable contrast between the philosophical analysis of
        > identity and personal identity in Western Philosophy and the approach
        > taken in Zen Philosophy.
        >
        > In Western thought we might begin a painstaking search, property by
        > property, to find if two things are identical at a given period of time.
        >
        > a = b ⇐ ⇒ ∨F(Fa → Fb)
        >
        > Even with more difficulty we might attempt to find if a given
        > consciousness can be related to the same person over a period of time.
        > Even granted that the consciousness of a person is privileged to that
        > person rather than to another, we will still have great difficulties
        > in personal identity. No such niceties worry the Suzuki theorist; we
        > just claim "pure experience" and pretend that when it is achieved
        > mental acts will cease. Now the self is the other.
        >
        > How much nonsense has been written about these alleged identities:
        > Bashô becomes one with the frog pond, Sensei becomes one with the deep
        > sky. Suddenly, the poets snap out of it and become discrete again. But
        > too late, the haiku has been crystallised as an eternal moment. No
        > logic is permitted or even necessary.
        >
        > I believe that Seisei has written a philosophical haiku. Is he saying
        > more than I have admitted, yet much less than Suzuki demands?
        >
        > Hugh Bygott
        > __________________________________________________________

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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