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Re: ËѤÎÌÚ(¤Û¤¦¤Î¤­ ) hounoki word order variations

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  • Norman Darlington
    ... Hi Dennis I believe that keeping the phrase order, in haiku translation (as in any other translation) is a tool for reassembling, as nearly as possible,
    Message 1 of 5 , Jun 1, 2006
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      --- In translatinghaiku@yahoogroups.com, "dennis443" <dennis443@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > ËѤÎÌÚ(¤Û¤¦¤Î¤­) hounoki - magnolia
      > ±¢(¤«¤²) kage - shade
      > ˧¹á(¤Û¤¦¤³¤¦) houio - fragrance
      > ¹ß¤ë(¤Õ¤ë) furu - to fall
      > ºÈ(¤«¤Ê) - how!
      >
      > hounokini kagehouioga furukana
      >
      > ËѤÎÌڤ˱¢Ë§¹á¤¬¹ß¤ëºÈ
      >
      > (note: this 5-7-4, one sound short... any help?)
      >
      > magnolia -- in shade how the fragrance falls
      >
      > Discussion as to English order when re-translating:
      >
      > Should you try to keep the same/similar order in the English
      > translation?
      >
      > variations of order:
      >
      > magnolia -- how fragrance falls in the shade?!
      >
      > magnolia -- its fragrance falls in the shade!?
      >
      > (using the punctuation can approximate "kana" at the end?)
      >
      > domo arigatou gozaimasu
      >
      > keigu
      >
      > ~simple-sigh-man~
      >


      Hi Dennis

      I believe that keeping the phrase order, in haiku translation (as in
      any other translation) is a tool for reassembling, as nearly as
      possible, the reader's experience in the target language, rather than
      an end in itself. Where keeping the original order would conflict with
      the latter overriding aim, it should not be adhered to blindly.

      I would like to ask you about ºÈ kana. Since as a kireji it is unusual
      in providing an external rather than internal cut, is it appropriate
      for the translation to use an internal cutting device (--)? Certainly
      many translators have done as you, but I have never understood the
      justification.

      And lastly, could I ask why you, in writing out the romaji, leave no
      space between the words, but only between the "lines"?

      Thanks in advance for any help with understanding this, particularly
      the kana question.

      Best wishes
      Norman
    • dennis443
      ... in ... than ... with ... unusual ... appropriate ... Certainly ... no ... particularly ... Dear Norman san Thank you for your reply. I have struggled with
      Message 2 of 5 , Jun 1, 2006
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        --- In translatinghaiku@yahoogroups.com, "Norman Darlington"
        <yahoo@...> wrote:
        >
        > --- In translatinghaiku@yahoogroups.com, "dennis443" <dennis443@>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > 朴の木(ほうのき) hounoki - magnolia
        > > 陰(かげ) kage - shade
        > > 芳香(ほうこう) houio - fragrance
        > > 降る(ふる) furu - to fall
        > > 哉(かな) - how!
        > >
        > > hounokini kagehouioga furukana
        > >
        > > 朴の木に陰芳香が降る哉
        > >
        > > (note: this 5-7-4, one sound short... any help?)
        > >
        > > magnolia -- in shade how the fragrance falls
        > >
        > > Discussion as to English order when re-translating:
        > >
        > > Should you try to keep the same/similar order in the English
        > > translation?
        > >
        > > variations of order:
        > >
        > > magnolia -- how fragrance falls in the shade?!
        > >
        > > magnolia -- its fragrance falls in the shade!?
        > >
        > > (using the punctuation can approximate "kana" at the end?)
        > >
        > > domo arigatou gozaimasu
        > >
        > > keigu
        > >
        > > ~simple-sigh-man~
        > >
        >
        >
        > Hi Dennis
        >
        > I believe that keeping the phrase order, in haiku translation (as
        in
        > any other translation) is a tool for reassembling, as nearly as
        > possible, the reader's experience in the target language, rather
        than
        > an end in itself. Where keeping the original order would conflict
        with
        > the latter overriding aim, it should not be adhered to blindly.
        >
        > I would like to ask you about 哉 kana. Since as a kireji it is
        unusual
        > in providing an external rather than internal cut, is it
        appropriate
        > for the translation to use an internal cutting device (--)?
        Certainly
        > many translators have done as you, but I have never understood the
        > justification.
        >
        > And lastly, could I ask why you, in writing out the romaji, leave
        no
        > space between the words, but only between the "lines"?
        >
        > Thanks in advance for any help with understanding this,
        particularly
        > the kana question.
        >
        > Best wishes
        > Norman
        >
        Dear Norman san

        Thank you for your reply.

        I have struggled with "punctuation" as to transfering the impact
        from Japanese to English. Some of the purpose of punctuation in
        English is to convey emotional intent and nuance. It is somewhat
        equivalent in intent to symbology in Japanese such as using "kana"
        or "ya" (to mention only two). I do not have a literary solution to
        this problem, though, there are a few translators that attempt to
        develop equavalent constructs (such as, "!?" to show "questioning
        surprize" or "?!" to show "a startling assertion". Though, I assure
        you these are but exagerration of the native Japanese emotion
        content of "kana" (for example).

        I do not know if it is necessary to remove the ambiquity of kireji
        in the translation. I feel at best the only thing to be done is to
        keep trying to diminish the ambiquity only enough to convey best the
        equivalent emotion.

        The use of "kireji" or "cutting word or phrase" is essential in
        traditional Japanese haiku. The construction of such an element in
        haiku is accomodated in the Japanese language itself.

        English may have a good enough substitution by using punctuation in
        combination with phrase/word choice and position. This is the
        results of experience and skill, I believe. But, who is to say? We
        English language users have no equivalent of haijin (for English),
        yet, or could have in the future.

        I like the use of such notation in the game of chess, but, unless
        you play chess, you may not understand "!!" or "?!", you see.

        ganbatte kudasai

        keigu

        ~simple-sigh-man~
      • dennis443
        ... unusual ... appropriate ... The use of -- or :: or similar is a comfortable crutch. It is not needed for someone familiar with enough Japanese
        Message 3 of 5 , Jun 1, 2006
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          <snip>
          > I would like to ask you about ºÈ kana. Since as a kireji it is
          unusual
          > in providing an external rather than internal cut, is it
          appropriate
          > for the translation to use an internal cutting device (--)?

          The use of "--" or "::" or similar is a comfortable crutch. It is
          not needed for someone familiar with enough Japanese haiku to parse
          the English based upon their experience, but, usually there are
          other readers that are just acquiring enough experience. In
          Japanese, this is less problematic because of the "kana", but, there
          are some Japanese poems that have a hidden cut or the 5-7-5 fits
          without the explicit cut.

          I am not a master, therefore, my use of punctuation such as "--" is
          a comfortable crutch. Perhaps, I will be able to develop the skill
          and experience level to not use such a crutch, one day.

          In my attempts at translation, it seems to be tolerated. Indeed,
          some readers demand such! I am afraid I use the punctuation rather
          inconsistently, sorry.


          Certainly
          > many translators have done as you, but I have never understood the
          > justification.
          >
          > And lastly, could I ask why you, in writing out the romaji, leave
          no
          > space between the words, but only between the "lines"?

          When I read romaji, my brain has relied on experience to separate
          the phrases/lines. I know Gabi san has suggested division by word.
          I am most familiar (and intially try) to separate by phrase or
          line. Though, I have read haiku written in romaji by native
          Japanese that separate by two or three lines. The Japanese script
          can be separated into multiple lines depending on use of white
          space, but, mostly in publications the script of a haiku is one
          vertical line. Again, let me say I am no master, so, I tend to be
          less consistent and you may see one to multiple lines depending on
          my mood, I am sorry to say.

          >
          > Thanks in advance for any help with understanding this,
          particularly
          > the kana question.
          >
          > Best wishes
          > Norman
          >
          Best wishes returned.

          ~simple-sigh-man~
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