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Re: ore ga , ora ga ... Issa

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  • lbolenyc
    ... my ... bush ... I. ... agree ... (I ... but ... bird ... though, I ... than obsession ... may ... just ... sure ... translation. ... translation ...
    Message 1 of 5 , Feb 1, 2008
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      --- In translatinghaiku@yahoogroups.com, "Greve Gabi"
      <gokurakuatworldkigo@...> wrote:
      >
      > nake yo nake yo heta demo ore ga uguisu zo
      >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > the bird call
      > > > > > repeats for lowly me --
      > > > > > bush warbler!
      > > > > >
      > > > > > (translation -- chibi)
      > > > > >
      > > > > > òô - could be nightingale, it is considered uncommon kanji
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Chibi san,
      > > > >
      > > > > So, you think Lanoue's translation is incorrect?
      > > > >
      > > > > I don't know kanji, but from looking at the romaji, and using
      my
      > > > > Japanese-English dictionary:
      > > > >
      > > > > nake yo | nake yo | heta | demo | ore | ga | uguisu zo
      > > > > chirp! | chirp! | poor (at)/inept | however/but | I | self |
      bush
      > > > > warbler!
      > > > >
      > > > > chirp! chirp!
      > > > > however poorly--
      > > > > my bushwarbler!
      > > > >
      > > > > Lanoue's translation:
      > > > >
      > > > > sing! sing!
      > > > > though off key
      > > > > my nightingale
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Lanoue translates another, similar haiku of Issa's:
      > > > >
      > > > > nake yo nake heta uguisu mo ore ga mado
      > > > >
      > > > > sing! sing!
      > > > > off-key nightingale
      > > > > at my window
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Larry
      > > > >
      > > > Dear Larry
      > > >
      > > > Dr. David is much more experienced at translation of Issa, than
      I.
      > > > Translating Issa is his "obsession" (his word to me). But, I
      agree
      > > > with Robin D. Gill (Keigu san) that the more attempts at
      > > > translation, the better chance at hitting the mark of the poet
      (I
      > > > paraphrase, Keigu san).
      > > >
      > > > As it so happens I was studying recently the use of the
      > > > Japanese "particle", "ga" which there is no English equivalent
      but
      > > > in Japanese "points to" the subject. In Issa's poem I felt "ore
      > > ga"
      > > > hinted that the subject was the pronoun "I" (ore). So, is the
      bird
      > > > the subject or is Issa? Haha... it drives me a "little cuckoo",
      > > > (nods with a grin to Gabi san). Then, please consider that I am
      > > > very inexperienced when it comes to translating Japanese,
      though, I
      > > > almost feel that is my "obsession"?! My method, if I may be so
      > > > presumptuous to have a method, is more "posession"
      than "obsession"
      > > > when it comes to translations. In fact, TRANCE-lations (if I
      may
      > > > coin the word)... ;-})>.
      > > >
      > > > Let me also say, I enjoy your thoughts and comments very much,
      > > > Larry. So, with sincerety may I say, "ganbattene".
      > > >
      > > > ciao... chibi
      > > >
      > >
      > > Chibi san,
      > >
      > > I don't mean to be contentious for the sake of contention. I'm
      just
      > > an occasional amateur translator who relies on other people's
      > > knowledge of Japanese. In that regard, I'm the "Blanche DuBois" of
      > > haiku, relying on "the kindness of strangers."
      > >
      > > I've seen many times where Prof. Lanoue has corrected his
      > > translations after getting advice from others. I think trying out
      > > different versions, as you did, is a good thing. But regarding the
      > > possible ambiguity of the subject of the haiku, "lowly me" doesn't
      > > strike me as a way Issa usually viewed himself. I could be wrong
      > > about that though.
      > >
      > > Unless I ever catch up with you in a knowledge of Japanese, I'm
      sure
      > > your translations will be more accurate than mine!
      > >
      > > I looked up "ore ga" on line when I was looking at your
      translation.
      > > It seems to be somewhat of a standard construction, appearing in
      > > popular song lyrics for instance, but none of the online
      translation
      > > services translated it as a two-word romaji expression.
      > >
      > > I took "ore ga" to be an emphatic "I", or "my". So, to express the
      > > emphasis, I might have capitalized "my" in Lanoue's translation,
      > > making it read:
      > >
      > > sing! sing!
      > > though off key
      > > MY bushwarbler
      > >
      > >
      > > Here is yet another Issa haiku on the same theme, translated by
      Lewis
      > > MacKenzie:
      > >
      > > Soko ni iyo
      > > Heta demo
      > > Ore ga uguisu zo
      > >
      > > Just stay there--
      > > You're no great singer
      > > But you're my nightingale!
      > >
      > >
      > > Larry
      > >
      >
      > Hi there,
      >
      > just a short note on ORE GA / ORA GA
      >
      >
      > Issa used this in ORA GA HARU! MY SPRING !
      >
      > http://www.google.co.jp/search?hl=en&q=%22ora+ga+haru%22
      >
      > Today we would say
      >
      > ore no haru,
      > watakushi no haru
      >
      >
      > Remember the use of Issa Japanese is that of a few hundred years
      back
      > in time ...
      >
      > Greetings from a cold morning in Japan
      > GABI


      Gabi san,

      Then what do you make of the contemporary use of "ore ga" as a phrase
      in song lyrics, titles of dramas, etc.?

      Examples:

      (...Ore ga aitsu de aitsu ga ore de, loosely translated I'm her,
      she's me) is a Japanese drama. It was part of a two part special
      called the "Morning Musume Suspense Drama Special"...


      Anime lyrics from "Dragonball Z" (which I've seen in the USA dubbed
      version):

      Ore ga Yaranakya Dare ga Yaru (If I Don't Do It, Who Will?)

      Larry
    • Greve Gabi
      ORE GA is usually the male language, my husband can use it when talking about his ... , it is modern grammar use when referring to yourself as a man. ore ga /
      Message 2 of 5 , Feb 1, 2008
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        ORE GA is usually the male language, my husband can use it when
        talking about his ... , it is modern grammar use when referring to
        yourself as a man.
        ore ga / ore wa

        watakushi wa Gabi desu.
        ore ga Bernd desu.



        The poetic use of ora ga haru, meaning ore no haru, is more
        difficult to understand.

        GABI


        > >
        > > nake yo nake yo heta demo ore ga uguisu zo
        > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > the bird call
        > > > > > > repeats for lowly me --
        > > > > > > bush warbler!
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > (translation -- chibi)
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > òô - could be nightingale, it is considered uncommon kanji
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Chibi san,
        > > > > >
        > > > > > So, you think Lanoue's translation is incorrect?
        > > > > >
        > > > > > I don't know kanji, but from looking at the romaji, and using
        > my
        > > > > > Japanese-English dictionary:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > nake yo | nake yo | heta | demo | ore | ga | uguisu zo
        > > > > > chirp! | chirp! | poor (at)/inept | however/but | I | self |
        > bush
        > > > > > warbler!
        > > > > >
        > > > > > chirp! chirp!
        > > > > > however poorly--
        > > > > > my bushwarbler!
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Lanoue's translation:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > sing! sing!
        > > > > > though off key
        > > > > > my nightingale
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Lanoue translates another, similar haiku of Issa's:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > nake yo nake heta uguisu mo ore ga mado
        > > > > >
        > > > > > sing! sing!
        > > > > > off-key nightingale
        > > > > > at my window
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Larry
        > > > > >
        > > > > Dear Larry
        > > > >
        > > > > Dr. David is much more experienced at translation of Issa, than
        > I.
        > > > > Translating Issa is his "obsession" (his word to me). But, I
        > agree
        > > > > with Robin D. Gill (Keigu san) that the more attempts at
        > > > > translation, the better chance at hitting the mark of the poet
        > (I
        > > > > paraphrase, Keigu san).
        > > > >
        > > > > As it so happens I was studying recently the use of the
        > > > > Japanese "particle", "ga" which there is no English equivalent
        > but
        > > > > in Japanese "points to" the subject. In Issa's poem I felt "ore
        > > > ga"
        > > > > hinted that the subject was the pronoun "I" (ore). So, is the
        > bird
        > > > > the subject or is Issa? Haha... it drives me a "little cuckoo",
        > > > > (nods with a grin to Gabi san). Then, please consider that I am
        > > > > very inexperienced when it comes to translating Japanese,
        > though, I
        > > > > almost feel that is my "obsession"?! My method, if I may be so
        > > > > presumptuous to have a method, is more "posession"
        > than "obsession"
        > > > > when it comes to translations. In fact, TRANCE-lations (if I
        > may
        > > > > coin the word)... ;-})>.
        > > > >
        > > > > Let me also say, I enjoy your thoughts and comments very much,
        > > > > Larry. So, with sincerety may I say, "ganbattene".
        > > > >
        > > > > ciao... chibi
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > > Chibi san,
        > > >
        > > > I don't mean to be contentious for the sake of contention. I'm
        > just
        > > > an occasional amateur translator who relies on other people's
        > > > knowledge of Japanese. In that regard, I'm the "Blanche DuBois" of
        > > > haiku, relying on "the kindness of strangers."
        > > >
        > > > I've seen many times where Prof. Lanoue has corrected his
        > > > translations after getting advice from others. I think trying out
        > > > different versions, as you did, is a good thing. But regarding the
        > > > possible ambiguity of the subject of the haiku, "lowly me" doesn't
        > > > strike me as a way Issa usually viewed himself. I could be wrong
        > > > about that though.
        > > >
        > > > Unless I ever catch up with you in a knowledge of Japanese, I'm
        > sure
        > > > your translations will be more accurate than mine!
        > > >
        > > > I looked up "ore ga" on line when I was looking at your
        > translation.
        > > > It seems to be somewhat of a standard construction, appearing in
        > > > popular song lyrics for instance, but none of the online
        > translation
        > > > services translated it as a two-word romaji expression.
        > > >
        > > > I took "ore ga" to be an emphatic "I", or "my". So, to express the
        > > > emphasis, I might have capitalized "my" in Lanoue's translation,
        > > > making it read:
        > > >
        > > > sing! sing!
        > > > though off key
        > > > MY bushwarbler
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Here is yet another Issa haiku on the same theme, translated by
        > Lewis
        > > > MacKenzie:
        > > >
        > > > Soko ni iyo
        > > > Heta demo
        > > > Ore ga uguisu zo
        > > >
        > > > Just stay there--
        > > > You're no great singer
        > > > But you're my nightingale!
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Larry
        > > >
        > >
        > > Hi there,
        > >
        > > just a short note on ORE GA / ORA GA
        > >
        > >
        > > Issa used this in ORA GA HARU! MY SPRING !
        > >
        > > http://www.google.co.jp/search?hl=en&q=%22ora+ga+haru%22
        > >
        > > Today we would say
        > >
        > > ore no haru,
        > > watakushi no haru
        > >
        > >
        > > Remember the use of Issa Japanese is that of a few hundred years
        > back
        > > in time ...
        > >
        > > Greetings from a cold morning in Japan
        > > GABI
        >
        >
        > Gabi san,
        >
        > Then what do you make of the contemporary use of "ore ga" as a phrase
        > in song lyrics, titles of dramas, etc.?
        >
        > Examples:
        >
        > (...Ore ga aitsu de aitsu ga ore de, loosely translated I'm her,
        > she's me) is a Japanese drama. It was part of a two part special
        > called the "Morning Musume Suspense Drama Special"...
        >
        >
        > Anime lyrics from "Dragonball Z" (which I've seen in the USA dubbed
        > version):
        >
        > Ore ga Yaranakya Dare ga Yaru (If I Don't Do It, Who Will?)
        >
        > Larry
        >
        >
      • simple_sigh_man
        my spring ore ga haru my nose/tip/petal/flower ore ga hana ore ga hana my blossom (sakura) ain t Japanese GREAT! When will the apricot (ume) bloom? I wonder!
        Message 3 of 5 , Feb 2, 2008
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          my spring
          ore ga haru

          my nose/tip/petal/flower
          ore ga hana

          ore ga hana
          my blossom (sakura)

          ain't Japanese GREAT!

          When will the apricot (ume) bloom? I wonder!






          --- In translatinghaiku@yahoogroups.com, "Greve Gabi"
          <gokurakuatworldkigo@...> wrote:
          >
          > ORE GA is usually the male language, my husband can use it when
          > talking about his ... , it is modern grammar use when referring to
          > yourself as a man.
          > ore ga / ore wa
          >
          > watakushi wa Gabi desu.
          > ore ga Bernd desu.
          >
          >
          >
          > The poetic use of ora ga haru, meaning ore no haru, is more
          > difficult to understand.
          >
          > GABI
          >
          >
          > > >
          > > > nake yo nake yo heta demo ore ga uguisu zo
          > > >
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > the bird call
          > > > > > > > repeats for lowly me --
          > > > > > > > bush warbler!
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > (translation -- chibi)
          > > > > > > >
          > > > > > > > òô - could be nightingale, it is considered uncommon
          kanji
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Chibi san,
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > So, you think Lanoue's translation is incorrect?
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > I don't know kanji, but from looking at the romaji, and
          using
          > > my
          > > > > > > Japanese-English dictionary:
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > nake yo | nake yo | heta | demo | ore | ga | uguisu zo
          > > > > > > chirp! | chirp! | poor (at)/inept | however/but | I |
          self |
          > > bush
          > > > > > > warbler!
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > chirp! chirp!
          > > > > > > however poorly--
          > > > > > > my bushwarbler!
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Lanoue's translation:
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > sing! sing!
          > > > > > > though off key
          > > > > > > my nightingale
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Lanoue translates another, similar haiku of Issa's:
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > nake yo nake heta uguisu mo ore ga mado
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > sing! sing!
          > > > > > > off-key nightingale
          > > > > > > at my window
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > Larry
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > Dear Larry
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Dr. David is much more experienced at translation of Issa,
          than
          > > I.
          > > > > > Translating Issa is his "obsession" (his word to me). But,
          I
          > > agree
          > > > > > with Robin D. Gill (Keigu san) that the more attempts at
          > > > > > translation, the better chance at hitting the mark of the
          poet
          > > (I
          > > > > > paraphrase, Keigu san).
          > > > > >
          > > > > > As it so happens I was studying recently the use of the
          > > > > > Japanese "particle", "ga" which there is no English
          equivalent
          > > but
          > > > > > in Japanese "points to" the subject. In Issa's poem I
          felt "ore
          > > > > ga"
          > > > > > hinted that the subject was the pronoun "I" (ore). So, is
          the
          > > bird
          > > > > > the subject or is Issa? Haha... it drives me a "little
          cuckoo",
          > > > > > (nods with a grin to Gabi san). Then, please consider that
          I am
          > > > > > very inexperienced when it comes to translating Japanese,
          > > though, I
          > > > > > almost feel that is my "obsession"?! My method, if I may
          be so
          > > > > > presumptuous to have a method, is more "posession"
          > > than "obsession"
          > > > > > when it comes to translations. In fact, TRANCE-lations (if
          I
          > > may
          > > > > > coin the word)... ;-})>.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Let me also say, I enjoy your thoughts and comments very
          much,
          > > > > > Larry. So, with sincerety may I say, "ganbattene".
          > > > > >
          > > > > > ciao... chibi
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Chibi san,
          > > > >
          > > > > I don't mean to be contentious for the sake of contention. I'm
          > > just
          > > > > an occasional amateur translator who relies on other people's
          > > > > knowledge of Japanese. In that regard, I'm the "Blanche
          DuBois" of
          > > > > haiku, relying on "the kindness of strangers."
          > > > >
          > > > > I've seen many times where Prof. Lanoue has corrected his
          > > > > translations after getting advice from others. I think trying
          out
          > > > > different versions, as you did, is a good thing. But
          regarding the
          > > > > possible ambiguity of the subject of the haiku, "lowly me"
          doesn't
          > > > > strike me as a way Issa usually viewed himself. I could be
          wrong
          > > > > about that though.
          > > > >
          > > > > Unless I ever catch up with you in a knowledge of Japanese,
          I'm
          > > sure
          > > > > your translations will be more accurate than mine!
          > > > >
          > > > > I looked up "ore ga" on line when I was looking at your
          > > translation.
          > > > > It seems to be somewhat of a standard construction, appearing
          in
          > > > > popular song lyrics for instance, but none of the online
          > > translation
          > > > > services translated it as a two-word romaji expression.
          > > > >
          > > > > I took "ore ga" to be an emphatic "I", or "my". So, to
          express the
          > > > > emphasis, I might have capitalized "my" in Lanoue's
          translation,
          > > > > making it read:
          > > > >
          > > > > sing! sing!
          > > > > though off key
          > > > > MY bushwarbler
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Here is yet another Issa haiku on the same theme, translated
          by
          > > Lewis
          > > > > MacKenzie:
          > > > >
          > > > > Soko ni iyo
          > > > > Heta demo
          > > > > Ore ga uguisu zo
          > > > >
          > > > > Just stay there--
          > > > > You're no great singer
          > > > > But you're my nightingale!
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Larry
          > > > >
          > > >
          > > > Hi there,
          > > >
          > > > just a short note on ORE GA / ORA GA
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Issa used this in ORA GA HARU! MY SPRING !
          > > >
          > > > http://www.google.co.jp/search?hl=en&q=%22ora+ga+haru%22
          > > >
          > > > Today we would say
          > > >
          > > > ore no haru,
          > > > watakushi no haru
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Remember the use of Issa Japanese is that of a few hundred years
          > > back
          > > > in time ...
          > > >
          > > > Greetings from a cold morning in Japan
          > > > GABI
          > >
          > >
          > > Gabi san,
          > >
          > > Then what do you make of the contemporary use of "ore ga" as a
          phrase
          > > in song lyrics, titles of dramas, etc.?
          > >
          > > Examples:
          > >
          > > (...Ore ga aitsu de aitsu ga ore de, loosely translated I'm her,
          > > she's me) is a Japanese drama. It was part of a two part special
          > > called the "Morning Musume Suspense Drama Special"...
          > >
          > >
          > > Anime lyrics from "Dragonball Z" (which I've seen in the USA
          dubbed
          > > version):
          > >
          > > Ore ga Yaranakya Dare ga Yaru (If I Don't Do It, Who Will?)
          > >
          > > Larry
          > >
          > >
          >
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