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out-in's breath

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  • Norman Darlington
    ide iri no iku ya kokoro no hana no kaze Literally: out-in s breath! heart s blossom s wind Shôshu 1651 I ve run into a degree of controversy on another forum
    Message 1 of 18 , Mar 2, 2007
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      ide iri no iku ya kokoro no hana no kaze
      Literally: out-in's breath! heart's blossom's wind

      Shôshu 1651

      I've run into a degree of controversy on another forum with this ku. I
      was doing my iconoclast trick, trying to show the irrelevance of some
      of the widely-accepted 'rules' of English-language haiku. Rather than
      show the translations I used there (which were maybe the real source
      of the argument) I'd like to try and start from scratch again, with
      your help.

      Rule-bashing aside, I think this is an interesting little verse, in
      both concept and construct. Look how the kireji falls in the middle of
      the second 'line'!

      Anyone care to attempt an English version of this?

      Best wishes
      Norman
    • lbolenyc
      ... breathing it in and out: a breeze from the heart of the blossoms * breathing it in and out: the blossoms essence wafting through the air * spring wind:
      Message 2 of 18 , Mar 2, 2007
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        --- In translatinghaiku@yahoogroups.com, "Norman Darlington"
        <norman@...> wrote:
        >
        > ide iri no iku ya kokoro no hana no kaze
        > Literally: out-in's breath! heart's blossom's wind
        >
        > Shôshu 1651
        >
        > I've run into a degree of controversy on another forum with this
        >ku. I
        > was doing my iconoclast trick, trying to show the irrelevance of
        >some
        > of the widely-accepted 'rules' of English-language haiku. Rather
        >than
        > show the translations I used there (which were maybe the real source
        > of the argument) I'd like to try and start from scratch again, with
        > your help.
        >
        > Rule-bashing aside, I think this is an interesting little verse, in
        > both concept and construct. Look how the kireji falls in the middle
        >of
        > the second 'line'!
        >
        > Anyone care to attempt an English version of this?
        >
        > Best wishes
        > Norman


        breathing it in
        and out: a breeze
        from the heart of the blossoms

        *

        breathing it in
        and out: the blossoms' essence
        wafting through the air

        *

        spring wind:
        breathing the essence / (I am) breathing the essence
        of the blossoms

        *

        spring wind:
        a breath from the heart
        of the blossoms


        I need a better Romaji-English dictionary! LOL So my translation is
        highly conjectural. Am I totally off-base?

        How idiomatic is the Japanese? Is any of it 'set-phrases', having
        well-established connotations?

        Larry
      • Sakuo Nakamura
        Norman s original. ide iri no [ out-in s! ] iku ya kokoro no [ breath ] [heart s] hana no kaze [ blossom s wind] Norman san, may I ask question on the original
        Message 3 of 18 , Mar 3, 2007
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          Norman's original.

          ide iri no [ out-in's! ]
          iku ya kokoro no [ breath ] [heart's]
          hana no kaze [ blossom's wind]

          Norman san, may I ask question on the original Japanese.
          I have suspicion about second line.
          Look,
          iku ya kokoro no [ breath ] [heart's]

          If this phrase translated to Japanese,
          行くや心の [iku ya kokoro no]
          You used [breath] in your English, if so, Japanese should be as follows,
          息や心の[iki ya kokoro no]

          [iku] or [iki] ? Which is correct in original haiku?

          sakuo.



          -----Original Message-----
          From: translatinghaiku@yahoogroups.com [mailto:translatinghaiku@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Norman Darlington
          Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 12:13 AM
          To: translatinghaiku@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [Translating Haiku] out-in's breath

          ide iri no iku ya kokoro no hana no kaze
          Literally: out-in's breath! heart's blossom's wind

          Shôshu 1651

          I've run into a degree of controversy on another forum with this ku. I
          was doing my iconoclast trick, trying to show the irrelevance of some
          of the widely-accepted 'rules' of English-language haiku. Rather than
          show the translations I used there (which were maybe the real source
          of the argument) I'd like to try and start from scratch again, with
          your help.

          Rule-bashing aside, I think this is an interesting little verse, in
          both concept and construct. Look how the kireji falls in the middle of
          the second 'line'!

          Anyone care to attempt an English version of this?

          Best wishes
          Norman
        • Norman Darlington
          ... Larry, Zhanna, and Sakuo, thanks for your responses. I enjoyed all the translations. The haiku is taken from Gill s Cherry Blossom Epiphany p.509 (see
          Message 4 of 18 , Mar 6, 2007
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            --- In translatinghaiku@yahoogroups.com, "lbolenyc" <lbolenyc@...> wrote:
            >
            > --- In translatinghaiku@yahoogroups.com, "Norman Darlington"
            > <norman@> wrote:
            > >
            > > ide iri no iku ya kokoro no hana no kaze
            > > Literally: out-in's breath! heart's blossom's wind
            > >
            > > Shôshu 1651
            > >
            > > I've run into a degree of controversy on another forum with this
            > >ku. I
            > > was doing my iconoclast trick, trying to show the irrelevance of
            > >some
            > > of the widely-accepted 'rules' of English-language haiku. Rather
            > >than
            > > show the translations I used there (which were maybe the real source
            > > of the argument) I'd like to try and start from scratch again, with
            > > your help.
            > >
            > > Rule-bashing aside, I think this is an interesting little verse, in
            > > both concept and construct. Look how the kireji falls in the middle
            > >of
            > > the second 'line'!
            > >
            > > Anyone care to attempt an English version of this?
            > >
            > > Best wishes
            > > Norman
            >
            >
            > breathing it in
            > and out: a breeze
            > from the heart of the blossoms
            >
            > *
            >
            > breathing it in
            > and out: the blossoms' essence
            > wafting through the air
            >
            > *
            >
            > spring wind:
            > breathing the essence / (I am) breathing the essence
            > of the blossoms
            >
            > *
            >
            > spring wind:
            > a breath from the heart
            > of the blossoms
            >
            >
            > I need a better Romaji-English dictionary! LOL So my translation is
            > highly conjectural. Am I totally off-base?
            >
            > How idiomatic is the Japanese? Is any of it 'set-phrases', having
            > well-established connotations?
            >
            > Larry
            >
            >
            > In and out, my breathing -
            > this wind of a blossoming heart... ?
            >
            > In and out
            > goes my breathing -
            > with the wind
            > of a happy heart. ?
            >
            > Zhanna :)


            Larry, Zhanna, and Sakuo, thanks for your responses. I enjoyed all the
            translations. The haiku is taken from Gill's 'Cherry Blossom Epiphany'
            p.509 (see earlier posts), and from my notes I can tell you he offers
            the following versions:

            the wind visiting
            the blossom of our hearts
            it's called breath

            cherry blossoms
            i feel my breath as wind
            visiting the heart

            are you sighing
            the blossom wind visits
            blooming hearts

            He also offers the following comment: Wind as a blossom-seeking free
            libido couples with the idea of blossoming within. A pun on
            nose-blossom (hana) justifies the sighing in the last reading...

            I'm away from home and my library, so can someone else please check
            the text and answer Sakuo's question: have I made an error in
            transcribing - is it iki or iku? For the same reason I also can't
            answer Larry's question about set phrases, but am sure hana no kaze is
            one such.

            Best wishes
            Norman
          • Greve Gabi
            ... ...................... I am quite sure breath is IKI and hana no kaze will be the flower, not the nose HANA. googeling
            Message 5 of 18 , Mar 6, 2007
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              > I'm away from home and my library, so can someone else please check
              > the text and answer Sakuo's question: have I made an error in
              > transcribing - is it iki or iku? For the same reason I also can't
              > answer Larry's question about set phrases, but am sure hana no kaze is
              > one such.
              >
              > Best wishes
              > Norman

              ......................

              I am quite sure breath is IKI
              and
              hana no kaze will be the flower, not the nose HANA.

              googeling
              http://www.google.co.jp/search?hl=en&q=%22%E8%8A%B1%E3%81%AE%E9%A2%A8%E2%80%9D

              Results 1 - 10 of about 762 for "花の風".

              we even have a festival, hana no kaze matsuri
              http://www.koisagoyaki.co.jp/batou_machi/event/hanakaze/


              English googeling
              Results *1* - *10* of about *674* for *"hana no kaze"*.

              Greetings from a cold morning, snow on the flowers, hana ni yuki ...

              GABI


              ........................................................


              > > > ide iri no iku ya kokoro no hana no kaze
              > > > Literally: out-in's breath! heart's blossom's wind
              > > >
              > > > Shôshu 1651
              > > >
              > > > I've run into a degree of controversy on another forum with this
              > > >ku. I
              > > > was doing my iconoclast trick, trying to show the irrelevance of
              > > >some
              > > > of the widely-accepted 'rules' of English-language haiku. Rather
              > > >than
              > > > show the translations I used there (which were maybe the real source
              > > > of the argument) I'd like to try and start from scratch again, with
              > > > your help.
              > > >
              > > > Rule-bashing aside, I think this is an interesting little verse, in
              > > > both concept and construct. Look how the kireji falls in the middle
              > > >of
              > > > the second 'line'!
              > > >
              > > > Anyone care to attempt an English version of this?
              > > >
              > > > Best wishes
              > > > Norman
              > >
              > >
              > > breathing it in
              > > and out: a breeze
              > > from the heart of the blossoms
              > >
              > > *
              > >
              > > breathing it in
              > > and out: the blossoms' essence
              > > wafting through the air
              > >
              > > *
              > >
              > > spring wind:
              > > breathing the essence / (I am) breathing the essence
              > > of the blossoms
              > >
              > > *
              > >
              > > spring wind:
              > > a breath from the heart
              > > of the blossoms
              > >
              > >
              > > I need a better Romaji-English dictionary! LOL So my translation is
              > > highly conjectural. Am I totally off-base?
              > >
              > > How idiomatic is the Japanese? Is any of it 'set-phrases', having
              > > well-established connotations?
              > >
              > > Larry
              > >
              > >
              > > In and out, my breathing -
              > > this wind of a blossoming heart... ?
              > >
              > > In and out
              > > goes my breathing -
              > > with the wind
              > > of a happy heart. ?
              > >
              > > Zhanna :)
              >
              > Larry, Zhanna, and Sakuo, thanks for your responses. I enjoyed all the
              > translations. The haiku is taken from Gill's 'Cherry Blossom Epiphany'
              > p.509 (see earlier posts), and from my notes I can tell you he offers
              > the following versions:
              >
              > the wind visiting
              > the blossom of our hearts
              > it's called breath
              >
              > cherry blossoms
              > i feel my breath as wind
              > visiting the heart
              >
              > are you sighing
              > the blossom wind visits
              > blooming hearts
              >
              > He also offers the following comment: Wind as a blossom-seeking free
              > libido couples with the idea of blossoming within. A pun on
              > nose-blossom (hana) justifies the sighing in the last reading...
              >
              > I'm away from home and my library, so can someone else please check
              > the text and answer Sakuo's question: have I made an error in
              > transcribing - is it iki or iku? For the same reason I also can't
              > answer Larry's question about set phrases, but am sure hana no kaze is
              > one such.
              >
              > Best wishes
              > Norman
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Lewis Cook
              It s iki in Gill s text (as it should be). I wouldn t use essence here (too much philosophical baggage). kokoro no hana (the flower of the heart / the
              Message 6 of 18 , Mar 6, 2007
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                It's "iki" in Gill's text (as it should be).

                I wouldn't use 'essence' here (too much philosophical baggage).

                "kokoro no hana" (the flower of the heart / the flower that is the
                human heart) is grammatically ambiguous (as in 'The City of Paris,'
                say, in English - objective genitive, I believe) and has a long
                lineage in waka, notably the famous 9th c. poem by Ono no Komachi,
                "iro miete/miede <phonetically and thus grammatically ambiguous
                because no dakuten [diacritics] are supplied in early manuscripts>
                utsurou mono wa yo no naka no hito no kokoro no hana ni zo
                arikeru" (translations available at the Japanese Text Initiative
                website, _Kokinshu_ No. 797).

                "hana no kaze' is another long story...

                (I'm sorry I don't participate more often but I truly enjoy the
                polyglot intelligence and poetry of this list.)

                Lewis Cook




                On Mar 6, 2007, at 3:24 PM, Norman Darlington wrote:

                > --- In translatinghaiku@yahoogroups.com, "lbolenyc" <lbolenyc@...>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > --- In translatinghaiku@yahoogroups.com, "Norman Darlington"
                > > <norman@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > ide iri no iku ya kokoro no hana no kaze
                > > > Literally: out-in's breath! heart's blossom's wind
                > > >
                > > > Shôshu 1651
                > > >
                > > > I've run into a degree of controversy on another forum with this
                > > >ku. I
                > > > was doing my iconoclast trick, trying to show the irrelevance of
                > > >some
                > > > of the widely-accepted 'rules' of English-language haiku. Rather
                > > >than
                > > > show the translations I used there (which were maybe the real
                > source
                > > > of the argument) I'd like to try and start from scratch again,
                > with
                > > > your help.
                > > >
                > > > Rule-bashing aside, I think this is an interesting little
                > verse, in
                > > > both concept and construct. Look how the kireji falls in the
                > middle
                > > >of
                > > > the second 'line'!
                > > >
                > > > Anyone care to attempt an English version of this?
                > > >
                > > > Best wishes
                > > > Norman
                > >
                > >
                > > breathing it in
                > > and out: a breeze
                > > from the heart of the blossoms
                > >
                > > *
                > >
                > > breathing it in
                > > and out: the blossoms' essence
                > > wafting through the air
                > >
                > > *
                > >
                > > spring wind:
                > > breathing the essence / (I am) breathing the essence
                > > of the blossoms
                > >
                > > *
                > >
                > > spring wind:
                > > a breath from the heart
                > > of the blossoms
                > >
                > >
                > > I need a better Romaji-English dictionary! LOL So my translation is
                > > highly conjectural. Am I totally off-base?
                > >
                > > How idiomatic is the Japanese? Is any of it 'set-phrases', having
                > > well-established connotations?
                > >
                > > Larry
                > >
                > >
                > > In and out, my breathing -
                > > this wind of a blossoming heart... ?
                > >
                > > In and out
                > > goes my breathing -
                > > with the wind
                > > of a happy heart. ?
                > >
                > > Zhanna :)
                >
                > Larry, Zhanna, and Sakuo, thanks for your responses. I enjoyed all the
                > translations. The haiku is taken from Gill's 'Cherry Blossom Epiphany'
                > p.509 (see earlier posts), and from my notes I can tell you he offers
                > the following versions:
                >
                > the wind visiting
                > the blossom of our hearts
                > it's called breath
                >
                > cherry blossoms
                > i feel my breath as wind
                > visiting the heart
                >
                > are you sighing
                > the blossom wind visits
                > blooming hearts
                >
                > He also offers the following comment: Wind as a blossom-seeking free
                > libido couples with the idea of blossoming within. A pun on
                > nose-blossom (hana) justifies the sighing in the last reading...
                >
                > I'm away from home and my library, so can someone else please check
                > the text and answer Sakuo's question: have I made an error in
                > transcribing - is it iki or iku? For the same reason I also can't
                > answer Larry's question about set phrases, but am sure hana no kaze is
                > one such.
                >
                > Best wishes
                > Norman
                >


                >



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Grzegorz Sionkowski
                ... Larry, I think both kokoro (heart) and hana (blossoms/flowers) describe kaze (wind), so kokoro no hana no kaze does not mean: ((kokoro no hana) no kaze)
                Message 7 of 18 , Mar 7, 2007
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                  --- In translatinghaiku@yahoogroups.com, "lbolenyc" <lbolenyc@...> wrote:

                  > > ide iri no iku ya kokoro no hana no kaze
                  > > Literally: out-in's breath! heart's blossom's wind
                  > >
                  > > Shôshu 1651
                  > >

                  > breathing it in
                  > and out: a breeze
                  > from the heart of the blossoms
                  >
                  > *
                  >
                  > breathing it in
                  > and out: the blossoms' essence
                  > wafting through the air
                  >
                  > *
                  >
                  > spring wind:
                  > breathing the essence / (I am) breathing the essence
                  > of the blossoms
                  >
                  > *
                  >
                  > spring wind:
                  > a breath from the heart
                  > of the blossoms
                  >

                  >
                  > Larry

                  Larry,

                  I think both kokoro (heart) and hana (blossoms/flowers) describe
                  kaze (wind), so "kokoro no hana no kaze" does not mean:

                  ((kokoro no hana) no kaze) {"heart of blossom" and so on}

                  but

                  (kokoro no (hana no kaze)) {~heart's (blossoms'(wind))}


                  My attempt:

                  breathing in and uot
                  the hearty wind blowing
                  among the flowers

                  best,
                  gregor
                • Greve Gabi
                  ... Hi Gregor, great to hear from you. I have to smile at your mathematical apporach a plus (b plus c) (a plus b) plus c In that case, I would tend to read it
                  Message 8 of 18 , Mar 7, 2007
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                    >
                    > > > ide iri no iki ya kokoro no hana no kaze
                    > > > Literally: out-in's breath! heart's blossom's wind
                    > > >
                    > > > Shôshu 1651
                    > > >
                    >
                    > > breathing it in
                    > > and out: a breeze
                    > > from the heart of the blossoms
                    > >
                    > > *
                    > >
                    > > breathing it in
                    > > and out: the blossoms' essence
                    > > wafting through the air
                    > >
                    > > *
                    > >
                    > > spring wind:
                    > > breathing the essence / (I am) breathing the essence
                    > > of the blossoms
                    > >
                    > > *
                    > >
                    > > spring wind:
                    > > a breath from the heart
                    > > of the blossoms
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    > > Larry
                    >
                    > Larry,
                    >
                    > I think both kokoro (heart) and hana (blossoms/flowers) describe
                    > kaze (wind), so "kokoro no hana no kaze" does not mean:
                    >
                    > ((kokoro no hana) no kaze) {"heart of blossom" and so on}
                    >
                    > but
                    >
                    > (kokoro no (hana no kaze)) {~heart's (blossoms'(wind))}
                    >
                    > My attempt:
                    >
                    > breathing in and out
                    > the hearty wind blowing
                    > among the flowers
                    >
                    > best,
                    > gregor
                    >
                    >


                    Hi Gregor, great to hear from you.

                    I have to smile at your mathematical apporach
                    a plus (b plus c)
                    (a plus b) plus c

                    In that case, I would tend to read it
                    (a plus b) plus c

                    I still have not come up with a useful translation attempt

                    ide iri no iki ya
                    is this the author breathing
                    or the wind breathing (rather improbable in my Japanese mind)

                    I love your strong wind .. hearty wind .., Gregor, although I do not
                    think this is what the author wants to say.


                    We still have quite a hearty wind around the house here, the roof
                    booming for a third sleepless night ...

                    GABI
                  • Grzegorz Sionkowski
                    ... I think you are right. ... I am a Pole, and it is really hard to me to feel this haiku. We use neither hearty wind nor flowers of the heart , in Polish,
                    Message 9 of 18 , Mar 7, 2007
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                      --- In translatinghaiku@yahoogroups.com, "Greve Gabi"

                      > > > > ide iri no iki ya kokoro no hana no kaze
                      > > > > Literally: out-in's breath! heart's blossom's wind
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Shôshu 1651

                      > In that case, I would tend to read it
                      > (a plus b) plus c

                      I think you are right.

                      > I still have not come up with a useful translation attempt

                      I am a Pole, and it is really hard to me to feel this haiku.
                      We use neither "hearty wind" nor "flowers of the heart",
                      in Polish, so even knowing an excellent English translation
                      I could not make a Polish one.

                      But I wait for a good one and for the description, why it
                      is better than the others ;-)

                      best,
                      gregor
                    • Greve Gabi
                      ... Maybe it is this my own breath, going in and out the wind of the flower of my heart does that make sense? ??? my own breath is like the wind ... lucky a
                      Message 10 of 18 , Mar 7, 2007
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                        >
                        > > > > > ide iri no iki ya kokoro no hana no kaze
                        > > > > > Literally: out-in's breath! heart's blossom's wind
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Shôshu 1651
                        >
                        > > In that case, I would tend to read it
                        > > (a plus b) plus c
                        >
                        > I think you are right.
                        >
                        > > I still have not come up with a useful translation attempt
                        >
                        > I am a Pole, and it is really hard to me to feel this haiku.
                        > We use neither "hearty wind" nor "flowers of the heart",
                        > in Polish, so even knowing an excellent English translation
                        > I could not make a Polish one.
                        >
                        > But I wait for a good one and for the description, why it
                        > is better than the others ;-)
                        >
                        > best,
                        > gregor
                        >
                        >

                        Maybe it is this

                        my own breath, going in
                        and out <> the wind of the flower
                        of my heart

                        does that make sense? ???

                        my own breath is like the wind ...

                        lucky a man who has a flower in his heart !
                        GABI
                      • Grzegorz Sionkowski
                        ... I think ya suggests that the second part is another look at the breath, so your translation sounds good. It is a pity, I still do not know what does the
                        Message 11 of 18 , Mar 7, 2007
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                          --- In translatinghaiku@yahoogroups.com, "Greve Gabi"
                          <gokurakuatworldkigo@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > >
                          > > > > > > ide iri no iki ya kokoro no hana no kaze
                          > > > > > > Literally: out-in's breath! heart's blossom's wind
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Shôshu 1651

                          > Maybe it is this
                          >
                          > my own breath, going in
                          > and out <> the wind of the flower
                          > of my heart
                          >
                          > does that make sense? ???
                          >
                          > my own breath is like the wind ...

                          I think "ya" suggests that the second part is another
                          look at the breath, so your translation sounds good.

                          It is a pity, I still do not know what does
                          "the flower of my heart" mean.

                          best,
                          gregor
                        • lbolenyc
                          Message 12 of 18 , Mar 7, 2007
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                            --- In translatinghaiku@yahoogroups.com, "Greve Gabi"
                            <gokurakuatworldkigo@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > >
                            > > > > > > ide iri no iki ya kokoro no hana no kaze
                            > > > > > > Literally: out-in's breath! heart's blossom's wind
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Shôshu 1651
                            > >
                            > > > In that case, I would tend to read it
                            > > > (a plus b) plus c
                            > >
                            > > I think you are right.
                            > >
                            > > > I still have not come up with a useful translation attempt
                            > >
                            > > I am a Pole, and it is really hard to me to feel this haiku.
                            > > We use neither "hearty wind" nor "flowers of the heart",
                            > > in Polish, so even knowing an excellent English translation
                            > > I could not make a Polish one.
                            > >
                            > > But I wait for a good one and for the description, why it
                            > > is better than the others ;-)
                            > >
                            > > best,
                            > > gregor
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            > Maybe it is this
                            >
                            > my own breath, going in
                            > and out <> the wind of the flower
                            > of my heart
                            >
                            > does that make sense? ???
                            >
                            > my own breath is like the wind ...
                            >
                            > lucky a man who has a flower in his heart !
                            > GABI
                            >
                          • lbolenyc
                            ... Gabi, I suspect your translation is the most accurate. I purposely decided to make the flowers real and the wind real, since heart s blossom s wind
                            Message 13 of 18 , Mar 7, 2007
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                              > > > > > > ide iri no iki ya kokoro no hana no kaze
                              > > > > > > Literally: out-in's breath! heart's blossom's wind
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Shôshu 1651
                              > >
                              > > > In that case, I would tend to read it
                              > > > (a plus b) plus c
                              > >
                              > > I think you are right.
                              > >
                              > > > I still have not come up with a useful translation attempt
                              > >
                              > > I am a Pole, and it is really hard to me to feel this haiku.
                              > > We use neither "hearty wind" nor "flowers of the heart",
                              > > in Polish, so even knowing an excellent English translation
                              > > I could not make a Polish one.
                              > >
                              > > But I wait for a good one and for the description, why it
                              > > is better than the others ;-)
                              > >
                              > > best,
                              > > gregor
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              > Maybe it is this
                              >
                              > my own breath, going in
                              > and out <> the wind of the flower
                              > of my heart
                              >
                              > does that make sense? ???
                              >
                              > my own breath is like the wind ...
                              >
                              > lucky a man who has a flower in his heart !
                              > GABI


                              Gabi,

                              I suspect your translation is the most accurate. I purposely decided
                              to make the flowers real and the wind real, since "heart's blossom's
                              wind" seemed too silly for words! Besides, when I saw "heart's
                              blossom's wind," it made me think of the expression in
                              English, 'breaking wind'. LOL

                              The haiku strikes me as too artificial for my taste. I doubt it's an
                              accident that only one haiku of Shoshu's appears in the four volumes
                              of Blyth's "Haiku," and Shoshu isn't mentioned at all in Blyth's two
                              volume "History of Haiku."

                              I have been reading a book of essays by the American poet Jane
                              Hirshfield, who has translated Ono no Komachi in her book, "The Ink
                              Dark Moon: Love Poems by Ono no Komachi and Izumi Shikibu." Now I
                              wish I had bought that book!

                              However, I have found several translations of the waka (Kokinshu No.
                              797 by Ono no Komachi) Mr. Cook mentions:

                              iro miyede
                              utsuroo mono wa
                              yo no naka no
                              hito no kokoro no
                              hana ni zo arikeru


                              A thing which fades
                              With no outward sign--
                              Is the flower
                              Of the heart of man
                              In this world!

                              tr. Arthur Waley ("Japanese Poetry: The Uta")


                              Imperceptible
                              It withers in the world,
                              This flower-like human heart.

                              tr. Kenneth Rexroth ("One Hundred Poems from the Japanese")


                              They change,
                              though you can't see it
                              in the color of their faces--
                              these blossoms that are the hearts
                              of the people of this world

                              tr. Burton Watson ("From the Country of Eight Islands: An Anthology
                              of Japanese Poetry")


                              that which fades within
                              without changing its color
                              is the hidden bloom
                              of the heart of man in
                              this world of disillusion

                              tr. Rodd & Henkenius ("Kokinshu: A Collection of Poems Ancient and
                              Modern")


                              Waley gives the following notes on the Japanese:

                              'Iro' = (1) color, (2) face, (3) outward form (Sanskrit 'ruupa').
                              There is a hint of all these meanings.

                              'miyede' is Negtive Participle of 'miyu' (2nd Conjug.), 'to be
                              visible'.

                              'Iro miyede' = (1) without its being visible in (the Man's) face. (2)
                              without its being visible in (the flower's) color.

                              'ni....ari' for 'nari'.


                              Larry
                            • Norman Darlington
                              Dear Sakuo As confirmed by Lewis Cook, it s iki in Gill s text (as it should be). So the error was in my transcription - sorry! Best wishes Norman ...
                              Message 14 of 18 , Mar 7, 2007
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                                Dear Sakuo
                                As confirmed by Lewis Cook, it's "iki" in Gill's text (as it should
                                be). So the error was in my transcription - sorry!

                                Best wishes
                                Norman

                                --- In translatinghaiku@yahoogroups.com, "Sakuo Nakamura"
                                <sakuo.3.sun@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Norman's original.
                                >
                                > ide iri no [ out-in's! ]
                                > iku ya kokoro no [ breath ] [heart's]
                                > hana no kaze [ blossom's wind]
                                >
                                > Norman san, may I ask question on the original Japanese.
                                > I have suspicion about second line.
                                > Look,
                                > iku ya kokoro no [ breath ] [heart's]
                                >
                                > If this phrase translated to Japanese,
                                > 行くや心の [iku ya kokoro no]
                                > You used [breath] in your English, if so, Japanese should be as follows,
                                > 息や心の[iki ya kokoro no]
                                >
                                > [iku] or [iki] ? Which is correct in original haiku?
                                >
                                > sakuo.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: translatinghaiku@yahoogroups.com
                                [mailto:translatinghaiku@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Norman Darlington
                                > Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 12:13 AM
                                > To: translatinghaiku@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: [Translating Haiku] out-in's breath
                                >
                                > ide iri no iku ya kokoro no hana no kaze
                                > Literally: out-in's breath! heart's blossom's wind
                                >
                                > Shôshu 1651
                                >
                                > I've run into a degree of controversy on another forum with this ku. I
                                > was doing my iconoclast trick, trying to show the irrelevance of some
                                > of the widely-accepted 'rules' of English-language haiku. Rather than
                                > show the translations I used there (which were maybe the real source
                                > of the argument) I'd like to try and start from scratch again, with
                                > your help.
                                >
                                > Rule-bashing aside, I think this is an interesting little verse, in
                                > both concept and construct. Look how the kireji falls in the middle of
                                > the second 'line'!
                                >
                                > Anyone care to attempt an English version of this?
                                >
                                > Best wishes
                                > Norman
                                >
                              • lbolenyc
                                ... offers ... is ... I was wondering how whomever was going to make the leap from out- in s breath to the heart s blossom s wind. So Gill uses various
                                Message 15 of 18 , Mar 7, 2007
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                                  > > --- In translatinghaiku@yahoogroups.com, "Norman Darlington"
                                  > > <norman@> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > ide iri no iku ya kokoro no hana no kaze
                                  > > > Literally: out-in's breath! heart's blossom's wind
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Shôshu 1651
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I've run into a degree of controversy on another forum with
                                  >this
                                  > > >ku. I
                                  > > > was doing my iconoclast trick, trying to show the irrelevance
                                  >of
                                  > > >some
                                  > > > of the widely-accepted 'rules' of English-language haiku.
                                  >Rather
                                  > > >than
                                  > > > show the translations I used there (which were maybe the real
                                  >source
                                  > > > of the argument) I'd like to try and start from scratch again,
                                  >with
                                  > > > your help.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Rule-bashing aside, I think this is an interesting little
                                  >verse, in
                                  > > > both concept and construct. Look how the kireji falls in the
                                  >middle
                                  > > >of
                                  > > > the second 'line'!
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Anyone care to attempt an English version of this?
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Best wishes
                                  > > > Norman
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > breathing it in
                                  > > and out: a breeze
                                  > > from the heart of the blossoms
                                  > >
                                  > > *
                                  > >
                                  > > breathing it in
                                  > > and out: the blossoms' essence
                                  > > wafting through the air
                                  > >
                                  > > *
                                  > >
                                  > > spring wind:
                                  > > breathing the essence / (I am) breathing the essence
                                  > > of the blossoms
                                  > >
                                  > > *
                                  > >
                                  > > spring wind:
                                  > > a breath from the heart
                                  > > of the blossoms
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > I need a better Romaji-English dictionary! LOL So my translation
                                  >is
                                  > > highly conjectural. Am I totally off-base?
                                  > >
                                  > > How idiomatic is the Japanese? Is any of it 'set-phrases', having
                                  > > well-established connotations?
                                  > >
                                  > > Larry
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > In and out, my breathing -
                                  > > this wind of a blossoming heart... ?
                                  > >
                                  > > In and out
                                  > > goes my breathing -
                                  > > with the wind
                                  > > of a happy heart. ?
                                  > >
                                  > > Zhanna :)
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Larry, Zhanna, and Sakuo, thanks for your responses. I enjoyed all
                                  >the
                                  > translations. The haiku is taken from Gill's 'Cherry Blossom
                                  >Epiphany'
                                  > p.509 (see earlier posts), and from my notes I can tell you he
                                  offers
                                  > the following versions:
                                  >
                                  > the wind visiting
                                  > the blossom of our hearts
                                  > it's called breath
                                  >
                                  > cherry blossoms
                                  > i feel my breath as wind
                                  > visiting the heart
                                  >
                                  > are you sighing
                                  > the blossom wind visits
                                  > blooming hearts
                                  >
                                  > He also offers the following comment: Wind as a blossom-seeking free
                                  > libido couples with the idea of blossoming within. A pun on
                                  > nose-blossom (hana) justifies the sighing in the last reading...
                                  >
                                  > I'm away from home and my library, so can someone else please check
                                  > the text and answer Sakuo's question: have I made an error in
                                  > transcribing - is it iki or iku? For the same reason I also can't
                                  > answer Larry's question about set phrases, but am sure hana no kaze
                                  is
                                  > one such.
                                  >
                                  > Best wishes
                                  > Norman


                                  I was wondering how whomever was going to make the leap from "out-
                                  in's breath" to the "heart's blossom's wind." So Gill uses various
                                  forms of the verb 'to visit'. It doesn't make Shoshu's haiku work any
                                  better for me.

                                  Sometimes, with some haiku, I get the impression that a Japanese
                                  haijin writes a haiku because a seventeen-syllable phrase pops into
                                  his/her head. Do you think it sometimes happens that a Japanese
                                  haijin thinks of a poem using words which may be more than 17
                                  syllables long, and then finds the necessary (different) words to
                                  condense it into the proper 17 syllables?

                                  Norman, when you can, would you please give us your translation(s)?

                                  Thanks, Larry
                                • Norman Darlington
                                  ... I will, Larry, when I get home on Friday. Thanks (everyone) for all the valuable input. Best wishes Norman
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Mar 7, 2007
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                                    --- In translatinghaiku@yahoogroups.com, "lbolenyc" <lbolenyc@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > > --- In translatinghaiku@yahoogroups.com, "Norman Darlington"
                                    > > > <norman@> wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > ide iri no iku ya kokoro no hana no kaze
                                    > > > > Literally: out-in's breath! heart's blossom's wind
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Shôshu 1651
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > I've run into a degree of controversy on another forum with
                                    > >this
                                    > > > >ku. I
                                    > > > > was doing my iconoclast trick, trying to show the irrelevance
                                    > >of
                                    > > > >some
                                    > > > > of the widely-accepted 'rules' of English-language haiku.
                                    > >Rather
                                    > > > >than
                                    > > > > show the translations I used there (which were maybe the real
                                    > >source
                                    > > > > of the argument) I'd like to try and start from scratch again,
                                    > >with
                                    > > > > your help.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Rule-bashing aside, I think this is an interesting little
                                    > >verse, in
                                    > > > > both concept and construct. Look how the kireji falls in the
                                    > >middle
                                    > > > >of
                                    > > > > the second 'line'!
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Anyone care to attempt an English version of this?
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Best wishes
                                    > > > > Norman
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > breathing it in
                                    > > > and out: a breeze
                                    > > > from the heart of the blossoms
                                    > > >
                                    > > > *
                                    > > >
                                    > > > breathing it in
                                    > > > and out: the blossoms' essence
                                    > > > wafting through the air
                                    > > >
                                    > > > *
                                    > > >
                                    > > > spring wind:
                                    > > > breathing the essence / (I am) breathing the essence
                                    > > > of the blossoms
                                    > > >
                                    > > > *
                                    > > >
                                    > > > spring wind:
                                    > > > a breath from the heart
                                    > > > of the blossoms
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I need a better Romaji-English dictionary! LOL So my translation
                                    > >is
                                    > > > highly conjectural. Am I totally off-base?
                                    > > >
                                    > > > How idiomatic is the Japanese? Is any of it 'set-phrases', having
                                    > > > well-established connotations?
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Larry
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > In and out, my breathing -
                                    > > > this wind of a blossoming heart... ?
                                    > > >
                                    > > > In and out
                                    > > > goes my breathing -
                                    > > > with the wind
                                    > > > of a happy heart. ?
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Zhanna :)
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Larry, Zhanna, and Sakuo, thanks for your responses. I enjoyed all
                                    > >the
                                    > > translations. The haiku is taken from Gill's 'Cherry Blossom
                                    > >Epiphany'
                                    > > p.509 (see earlier posts), and from my notes I can tell you he
                                    > offers
                                    > > the following versions:
                                    > >
                                    > > the wind visiting
                                    > > the blossom of our hearts
                                    > > it's called breath
                                    > >
                                    > > cherry blossoms
                                    > > i feel my breath as wind
                                    > > visiting the heart
                                    > >
                                    > > are you sighing
                                    > > the blossom wind visits
                                    > > blooming hearts
                                    > >
                                    > > He also offers the following comment: Wind as a blossom-seeking free
                                    > > libido couples with the idea of blossoming within. A pun on
                                    > > nose-blossom (hana) justifies the sighing in the last reading...
                                    > >
                                    > > I'm away from home and my library, so can someone else please check
                                    > > the text and answer Sakuo's question: have I made an error in
                                    > > transcribing - is it iki or iku? For the same reason I also can't
                                    > > answer Larry's question about set phrases, but am sure hana no kaze
                                    > is
                                    > > one such.
                                    > >
                                    > > Best wishes
                                    > > Norman
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I was wondering how whomever was going to make the leap from "out-
                                    > in's breath" to the "heart's blossom's wind." So Gill uses various
                                    > forms of the verb 'to visit'. It doesn't make Shoshu's haiku work any
                                    > better for me.
                                    >
                                    > Sometimes, with some haiku, I get the impression that a Japanese
                                    > haijin writes a haiku because a seventeen-syllable phrase pops into
                                    > his/her head. Do you think it sometimes happens that a Japanese
                                    > haijin thinks of a poem using words which may be more than 17
                                    > syllables long, and then finds the necessary (different) words to
                                    > condense it into the proper 17 syllables?
                                    >
                                    > Norman, when you can, would you please give us your translation(s)?
                                    >
                                    > Thanks, Larry
                                    >

                                    I will, Larry, when I get home on Friday. Thanks (everyone) for all
                                    the valuable input.

                                    Best wishes
                                    Norman
                                  • Sakuo Nakamura
                                    Norman san thank you for your kind reply. I am very glade to be able to assist your study. sakuo. ... From: translatinghaiku@yahoogroups.com
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Mar 7, 2007
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                                      Norman san thank you for your kind reply.
                                      I am very glade to be able to assist your study.

                                      sakuo.

                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: translatinghaiku@yahoogroups.com [mailto:translatinghaiku@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Norman Darlington
                                      Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 5:42 AM
                                      To: translatinghaiku@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [Translating Haiku] out-in's breath < iki ? or iku? sakuo>

                                      Dear Sakuo
                                      As confirmed by Lewis Cook, it's "iki" in Gill's text (as it should
                                      be). So the error was in my transcription - sorry!

                                      Best wishes
                                      Norman

                                      --- In translatinghaiku@yahoogroups.com <mailto:translatinghaiku%40yahoogroups.com> , "Sakuo Nakamura"
                                      <sakuo.3.sun@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Norman's original.
                                      >
                                      > ide iri no [ out-in's! ]
                                      > iku ya kokoro no [ breath ] [heart's]
                                      > hana no kaze [ blossom's wind]
                                      >
                                      > Norman san, may I ask question on the original Japanese.
                                      > I have suspicion about second line.
                                      > Look,
                                      > iku ya kokoro no [ breath ] [heart's]
                                      >
                                      > If this phrase translated to Japanese,
                                      > 行くや心の [iku ya kokoro no]
                                      > You used [breath] in your English, if so, Japanese should be as follows,
                                      > 息や心の[iki ya kokoro no]
                                      >
                                      > [iku] or [iki] ? Which is correct in original haiku?
                                      >
                                      > sakuo.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                      > From: translatinghaiku@yahoogroups.com <mailto:translatinghaiku%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      [mailto:translatinghaiku@yahoogroups.com <mailto:translatinghaiku%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Norman Darlington
                                      > Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 12:13 AM
                                      > To: translatinghaiku@yahoogroups.com <mailto:translatinghaiku%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      > Subject: [Translating Haiku] out-in's breath
                                      >
                                      > ide iri no iku ya kokoro no hana no kaze
                                      > Literally: out-in's breath! heart's blossom's wind
                                      >
                                      > Shôshu 1651
                                      >
                                      > I've run into a degree of controversy on another forum with this ku. I
                                      > was doing my iconoclast trick, trying to show the irrelevance of some
                                      > of the widely-accepted 'rules' of English-language haiku. Rather than
                                      > show the translations I used there (which were maybe the real source
                                      > of the argument) I'd like to try and start from scratch again, with
                                      > your help.
                                      >
                                      > Rule-bashing aside, I think this is an interesting little verse, in
                                      > both concept and construct. Look how the kireji falls in the middle of
                                      > the second 'line'!
                                      >
                                      > Anyone care to attempt an English version of this?
                                      >
                                      > Best wishes
                                      > Norman
                                      >
                                    • Grzegorz Sionkowski
                                      ... Larry, I agree with you. I hate metaphors in haiku. kokoro no hana ( flowers of the heart ) is very powerful as a metaphor, but either one should know
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Mar 8, 2007
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                                        --- In translatinghaiku@yahoogroups.com, "lbolenyc" <lbolenyc@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > > > > > > ide iri no iki ya kokoro no hana no kaze
                                        > > > > > > > Literally: out-in's breath! heart's blossom's wind
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > Shôshu 1651

                                        > The haiku strikes me as too artificial for my taste. I doubt it's an
                                        > accident that only one haiku of Shoshu's appears in the four volumes
                                        > of Blyth's "Haiku," and Shoshu isn't mentioned at all in Blyth's two
                                        > volume "History of Haiku."

                                        Larry,

                                        I agree with you.

                                        I hate metaphors in haiku.

                                        "kokoro no hana" ("flowers of the heart") is very
                                        powerful as a metaphor, but either one should know
                                        what it exactly means (in haiku) or it should exist
                                        in wider context in a poem to be well understood
                                        (at least the size of tanka).

                                        If I do not know the meaning, and there is no context
                                        which enable understanding, it may possess one thousand
                                        meanings:
                                        - flowers given to the girl I love
                                        - dry flowers got years ago from the lover
                                        - remembrances of beautiful moments of my life
                                        - thought about the people I love
                                        - my best poems
                                        - my children (fruits of my love)
                                        - ...

                                        It is too much for me.

                                        Until there is nobody who can explain me what
                                        "kokoro no hana" means in this haiku, I will
                                        try to make sensual translations, like this:

                                        breathing in and out
                                        the wind from the flowers
                                        reaches my heart

                                        My undestanding of haiku is: the first, literal layer
                                        should be sensual (wind=wind, flower=flower, heart=heart).
                                        Then you may also try to find additional layers
                                        assuming that the words do not only describe image
                                        (sensual feelings), but they create metaphors, too.
                                        A poem without real images (sensual description) is not
                                        a good haiku for me.

                                        best,
                                        gregor
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