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FW: [tracker2] Re: Alias WIDE or WIDE1

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  • Fred Hillhouse
    I should have added earlier that I used W1-1 in place of WIDE1-1 to save typing. It probably wasn t a good thing to do. Sorry, I don t really mean to add any
    Message 1 of 4 , Aug 13, 2009
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      I should have added earlier that I used W1-1 in place of WIDE1-1 to save typing. It probably wasn't a good thing to do. Sorry, I don't really mean to add any confusion.
       
       >> This path may seem highly unlikely but it is real one:
      >> HT (N7FMH-7) --> Mobile
      Fill-in (N7FMH-9) --> Fixed Fill-in
      >> PNRDVL) -->
      N1NAZ-5
      >
      >I'm confused (because WIDE1-1 should only be at the
      beginning of the  path) but I'll keep reading. Note... a fill-in digi is one that responds  to WIDE1-1 only. Perhaps there is some semantics going on in your  understanding of digipeaters. Note... a WIDEn-N digi will also respond  to WIDE1-1.
       
      I was referring the the RF path as opposed to the setting in a TNC. Each tracker, whether it is an HT or mobile rig, is configured as WIDE1-1, WIDE2-1.
       
      I mentioned both mainly to sort of describe a setup. The HT tracker has only a radio mounted antenna which will limit the range. It also runs low power to conserve batteries. The "mobile" tracker is a fixed 40W Phoenix running into an external antenna. There is a significant difference between these systems.
       
      And yes all trackers whether they are an HT based system or a mobile radio based system are mobile. ;)
       
      >> Here is a
      description each station involved:
      >>
      >> HT (N7FMH-7,
      W1-1,W2-1) sends a beacon.
      >> The only path out is through a
      fill-in.
      >> Kenwood TH-D7A(G)
      >
      >All OK so far. N7FMH-7 is
      a D7 and using a path of WIDE1-1,WIDE2- 1. I understand the D7 uses W1-1 as an abbreviation for WIDE1-1, and it's at
      >the beginning of the path, so all is OK so far.
      As mentioned above, you do understand that WIDEn-N digis also respond to WIDE1-1?
       
      Yes, I learned that sometime ago. I also learned that a tracker with only WIDE2-1 will not be forwarded by a WIDE1-1 digi (fill-in). A friend had only WIDE2-1 configured at one point.
       
      >> Mobile running as
      a tracker (N7FMH-9, W1-1,W2-1) and fill-in digi
      >> (W1-1). Located
      where it cannot hit a full (high) digipeater.
      >> Argent Data
      Tracker2
      >
      >Are you saying that N7FMH-9 is a mobile tracker (is
      there any other kind?) with a path of WIDE1-1,WIDE2- 1 (all OK) but it is also configured as a digi programmed to respond to WIDE1-1? 
       
      Yes (or at least that is the intent). It is temporary, only for my trip.
       
      >> Fixed station running as fill-in (PNRDVL, W1-1).
      >>
      Located where it can hit a full (high) digipeater.
      >> Kantronics
      KPC3+v8.3
      >
      >All sounds OK there. Fill-in digis should be situated
      where they can be
      >heard by a WIDEn-N digi. They should also only be
      situated in areas
      >where mobiles sometimes have trouble hitting the
      WIDEn-N digis directly.
       
      That is the reason the PNRDVL station was put up, to cover a large hole in its area.

      >> Fixed stations running as 'high' digipeaters. (N1NAZ, NE1B,
      AC1U, etc)
      >> Owned by other parties.
      >
      > The above is a
      real scenario. So the question is, what actually  happens when the HT needs the whole path?
      >
      >In your case, that's N7FMH-7. It doesn't matter that it's
      an HT, but as it's mobile, it's OK to use a path of WIDE1-1. As you mentioned  above, it has a path of WIDE1-1,WIDE2- 1. 
       
      I understand this.
       
      >If it's heard by a fill-in
      class=430425814-13082009> digi, it will be digipeated. The WIDE1-1 will be marked as used with the WIDE2-1 still available. 
       
      I think this is exactly what I was looking for. If the original beacon hits a WIDE1-1 (fill-in) digipeater, and goes on the hit only another WIDE1-1 (fill-in) digipeater, then it stops there. So testing in the area of the PNRDVL WIDE1-1 digipeater is pointless since the HT would get to the vehicle WIDE1-1, then to the PNRDVL WIDE1-1 and stop.
       
      >If a WIDEn-N digi hears the
      fill-in digi, it will be digipeated. If it isn't heard by another digi, it ends there,   but a fill-in digi situated where it can't be heard by a WIDEn-N digi would be kinda useless.
      >
      >Second
      possibility. .. it isn't heard by a fill-in digi, but it is heard  by a WIDEn-N digi. That digi will respond to the WIDE1-1, mark it is as   used and kick it out the other side with WIDE2-1 still available. If  another WIDEn-N digi is within earshot, it will be digipeated, marking the WIDE2-1 as used in the process. There will often be more than one within earshot. If so, each of them will respond simultaneously.
      I didn't realize a WIDEn-N would respond the the WIDE1-1 in that manner. Interesting.
       
      >> I know the mobile fill-in should receive the HT and forward it. If
      the
      >> mobile forwards it and it hits a high digipeater, everything is
      >> normal. I see that everyday as beacons go through the PNRDVL
      fill-in.
      >
      >Some people will argue against "mobile fill-in" digis
      (problems with  getting messages from IGates to mobile stations when a mobile digi is  involved and the IGate is using the reverse path), but... 
       
      The intent here is only to get the low power, low antenna HT signal out. For testing, I actually buried the HT low in the car with the hopes that only the car system would hear it and forward it. I was looking to test the WIDE1-1 capability.

      >> But if two (or more) fill-ins are in the path...? Should the
      HT W1-1
      >> setting really be W1-2 in this case to handle two
      fill-ins?
      >
      >There should never be more than one instance of WIDE1-1
      in the path. It  should only be at the beginning of the path. WIDE1-1 should only be used  by mobile stations. WIDE1-2 should never be used. It would be an  instance of an abusive / stupid path. In WIDEn-N the "N" should never be  more than the "n". The "n" is the maximum desired number of hops. The  "N" is the remaining / unused hops. If you see someone using WIDE1-2  they either don't understand proper digipeating or they are trying to   abuse the system. The point of a fill-in digi is to help a mobile station make it to a high WIDEn-N digi. If it was permissible to use WIDE1-1 more than once, you would have high WIDEn-N digis triggering every fill-in digi out to its horizon.
       
      But if the only RF path is through two WIDE1-1 digipeaters, how do you accomplish that? Normally one would not use WIDE1-2,WIDE2-1 for the stupid/abusive reasoning, but would that get through two WIDE1-1 digipeaters? For testing around my home, that might be the answer, but certainly not long term.
       

      >> Thanks for your insight!
      >
      >I hope some of the
      above helps. 
       
      I have learned something new today, so yes, it has helped.
       
      >> Now if only I can
      figure out why the T2 is not running as a
      >> tracker/fill- in. Time
      to check the setting again!
      >
      >What settings are you using?
       
      For the WIDE1-1, they are now:
      USEALIAS 1:ON 2:OFF 3:OFF 4:OFF 5:OFF 6:OFF 7:OFF 8:OFF
      ALIAS 1:WIDE1
      HOPLIMIT 1:1 2:0 3:0 4:0 5:0 6:0 7:0 8:0
      DIGIID 1:ON 2:OFF 3:OFF 4:OFF 5:OFF 6:OFF 7:OFF 8:OFF
      DUPETIME 30
       
      With OTWINCFG I saw that ALIAS 1 was not enabled. I didn't take the T2 out of the car yesterday so I made changes with PalmTerm on the PDA. Apparently when I enter in one of the above, the enable wasn't done correctly.
       
      Did I miss anything?
       
       >> The whole point of this exercise is for a trip starting this weekend.
      >> One vehicle will
      use the HT and the other the T2 as a tracker/fill- in.
      >> The HT
      is beaconing based on time and the T2 on SB. I figured this
      >> would
      be an interesting data set.
      >
      >Interesting. The HT has a fixed
      beacon rate because that is all that it  is  capable of doing. The more intelligent T2 is capable of  SmartBeaconing. The HT will sometimes be digi'd by the T2, or almost  always if very close to the T2. The beacons from the HT will sometimes  be simultaneously digi'd by the T2 and another digi which could be a  fill-in or a WIDEn-N.
       
      That is what I am hoping for.
       
      I thought it would be interesting to collect data from a 'timed' tracked and overlay it on a SmartBeaconing track. By doing a WIDE1-1, it keeps the output signal basically the same since the big power transmitter (!40W) gets used almost every time. Again the HT is buried in the car to force the WIDE1-1. I also want to run different SmartBeaconing profiles over the same tracks for comparison. I actually found that in this area it really doesn't matter what the high speed rate is unless it is really short. There are enough turns to initiate a beacon that the high speed timer almost never is reached. In Iowa, it would be an entirely different story! Eventually I would like to overlay a track made with proportional pathing as well. I don't have anything to do that though unless I borrow a VX8 ( I think they will do it).
       
      The data collected should make for an interesting visual for comparing different methods to control beacon timing.

      >There could be some other variations. If you are in an
      area where coverage is spotty, the T2 could go to a fairly high beacon rate but use the NICE command to tell it to hold if it hears itself being digi'd. The T2 could also do pre-emptive digipeating based on some alias tagged on   the end of the WIDE1-1,WIDE2- 1 that the HT is using, but I've never played around with that. 
       
      I thought about that as well. I would like to get some data and then add more later.
       
      >How long is your trip,
      and what are the start and end points?
       
      From PNRDVL to just east of W1CNH-5 in the circular mountain range. It is a really old extinct volcano I believe.
      Thanks for your comments!
       
      Best regards,
      Fred 
    • Michael Hordijk
      ... In this particular case, where you know the call of the first digi you wanted to hit, and the path you know it needs to get out, couldn t you set a path
      Message 2 of 4 , Aug 13, 2009
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        On 08/13/2009 12:29 PM, Fred Hillhouse wrote:
        > >> But if two (or more) fill-ins are in the path...? Should the HT W1-1
        > >> setting really be W1-2 in this case to handle two fill-ins?
        > >
        > >There should never be more than one instance of WIDE1-1 in the path.
        > It should only be at the beginning of the path. WIDE1-1 should only be
        > used by mobile stations. WIDE1-2 should never be used. It would be an
        > instance of an abusive / stupid path. In WIDEn-N the "N" should never be
        > more than the "n". The "n" is the maximum desired number of hops. The
        > "N" is the remaining / unused hops. If you see someone using WIDE1-2
        > they either don't understand proper digipeating or they are trying to
        > abuse the system. The point of a fill-in digi is to help a mobile
        > station make it to a high WIDEn-N digi. If it was permissible to use
        > WIDE1-1 more than once, you would have high WIDEn-N digis triggering
        > every fill-in digi out to its horizon.

        > But if the only RF path is through two WIDE1-1 digipeaters, how do you
        > accomplish that? Normally one would not use WIDE1-2,WIDE2-1 for the
        > stupid/abusive reasoning, but would that get through two WIDE1-1
        > digipeaters? For testing around my home, that might be the answer, but
        > certainly not long term.

        In this particular case, where you know the call of the first digi you
        wanted to hit, and the path you know it needs to get out, couldn't you
        set a path (in the HT) of:

        N7FMH-9,WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1

        Even better yet:

        N7FMH-9,PNRDVL,WIDE2-1

        That may be a three hop path, but is unlikely to cause much in the way
        of noise to anyone based on it's path, I would think.

        - michael
      • Broncus
        ... I like the first option. I think it should work regardless of where PNRDVL is (in range or not). So as I commute to work, I leave the PNRDVL area and enter
        Message 3 of 4 , Aug 13, 2009
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          --- In tracker2@yahoogroups.com, Michael Hordijk <hoffbrinkle@...> wrote:
          >
          > On 08/13/2009 12:29 PM, Fred Hillhouse wrote:
          > > >> But if two (or more) fill-ins are in the path...? Should the HT W1-1
          > > >> setting really be W1-2 in this case to handle two fill-ins?
          > > >
          > > >There should never be more than one instance of WIDE1-1 in the path.
          > > It should only be at the beginning of the path. WIDE1-1 should only be
          > > used by mobile stations. WIDE1-2 should never be used. It would be an
          > > instance of an abusive / stupid path. In WIDEn-N the "N" should never be
          > > more than the "n". The "n" is the maximum desired number of hops. The
          > > "N" is the remaining / unused hops. If you see someone using WIDE1-2
          > > they either don't understand proper digipeating or they are trying to
          > > abuse the system. The point of a fill-in digi is to help a mobile
          > > station make it to a high WIDEn-N digi. If it was permissible to use
          > > WIDE1-1 more than once, you would have high WIDEn-N digis triggering
          > > every fill-in digi out to its horizon.
          >
          > > But if the only RF path is through two WIDE1-1 digipeaters, how do you
          > > accomplish that? Normally one would not use WIDE1-2,WIDE2-1 for the
          > > stupid/abusive reasoning, but would that get through two WIDE1-1
          > > digipeaters? For testing around my home, that might be the answer, but
          > > certainly not long term.
          >
          > In this particular case, where you know the call of the first digi you
          > wanted to hit, and the path you know it needs to get out, couldn't you
          > set a path (in the HT) of:
          >
          > N7FMH-9,WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1
          >
          > Even better yet:
          >
          > N7FMH-9,PNRDVL,WIDE2-1
          >
          > That may be a three hop path, but is unlikely to cause much in the way
          > of noise to anyone based on it's path, I would think.
          >
          > - michael
          >
          I like the first option. I think it should work regardless of where PNRDVL is (in range or not). So as I commute to work, I leave the PNRDVL area and enter areas with WIDEn-N digipeaters, it should be heard. With that setting, does N7FMH-9 have to always be in the loop? I am understanding that it does. It is easy to add/delete in the D7 so it doesn't matter too much.


          Thanks!

          Best regards,
          Fred
        • Michael Hordijk
          ... Yes, it would always have to be in the loop, which would be useful in the context of the trip your making with the HT and the mobile. In general, the
          Message 4 of 4 , Aug 13, 2009
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            On 08/13/2009 02:17 PM, Broncus wrote:
            > > In this particular case, where you know the call of the first digi you
            > > wanted to hit, and the path you know it needs to get out, couldn't you
            > > set a path (in the HT) of:
            > >
            > > N7FMH-9,WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1
            > >
            > > Even better yet:
            > >
            > > N7FMH-9,PNRDVL,WIDE2-1
            > >
            > > That may be a three hop path, but is unlikely to cause much in the way
            > > of noise to anyone based on it's path, I would think.
            > >
            > > - michael
            > >
            > I like the first option. I think it should work regardless of where
            > PNRDVL is (in range or not). So as I commute to work, I leave the PNRDVL
            > area and enter areas with WIDEn-N digipeaters, it should be heard. With
            > that setting, does N7FMH-9 have to always be in the loop? I am
            > understanding that it does. It is easy to add/delete in the D7 so it
            > doesn't matter too much.

            Yes, it would always have to be in the loop, which would be useful in
            the context of the trip your making with the HT and the mobile. In
            general, the usual path you want when mobile is WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1.
            _Maybe_ WIDE1-1,WIDE2-2 if you need to hit two wide area digis to get to
            an iGate.

            When you're at home and not moving, it may make sense to use N7FMH-9 as
            an additional hop to get out to a WIDE1 or WIDE2. In this case using
            the explicit call makes sense and doesn't generate a whole bunch of QRM.

            However, WIDE1-2 doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Any WIDE1 digi you
            hit should be able to get you to a WIDE2 digi on the next hop, otherwise
            it's not really much of a fill-in digi. If you were to use WIDE1-2, you
            end up either spamming other fill-in digis, or end up with a three hop
            path you don't need, or have some similar effect generating QRM.

            - michael



            >
            > Thanks!
            >
            > Best regards,
            > Fred
            >
            >
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