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T2 demod questions

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  • Tim Smith
    Hi Scott: I was looking at the schematic in the YahooGroups file area to try and see what the EQ jumper actually does. I am missing a few packets from time to
    Message 1 of 8 , Dec 2, 2007
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      Hi Scott:

      I was looking at the schematic in the YahooGroups file area to try
      and see what the EQ jumper actually does. I am missing a few packets
      from time to time as compared to another TNC that is running a legacy
      XR2211 demod.

      I'm looking at audio on both sides of the EQ jumper with and without
      the jumper and see no difference in how the mark/space tones are
      handled. I've tried a variety of input levels from an Alinco DR1200
      data radio. The T2 demod is hearing with a pretty wide dynamic range
      from 200 mv to over 2v ptp. Live stations out there (around here)
      range from 300 mv to 2v ptp and am decoding packets at both extremes.

      I can't find the EQ jumper in the schematic to see what it's supposed
      to do. Presently, makr/space tones are pretty close in amplitude
      with a couple of ststions a bit hot on the 1200 hz tone (but no more
      than 30% difference).

      Is there an updated schematic and a better explanation of what the EQ
      jumper is doing?

      Thanks,

      Tim
    • wa2ysm
      Tim: I too had a lot of trouble with decode on an OT2B (second revision of OT2), the new OT2m that I have just put in service appears to be much better, but I
      Message 2 of 8 , Dec 2, 2007
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        Tim:
        I too had a lot of trouble with decode on an OT2B (second revision of
        OT2), the new OT2m that I have just put in service appears to be much
        better, but I have not scoped the packets yet. On the OT2B, it appeared
        that the presence of PL tones on the signal was deadly. Some stations,
        using the radio for both voice and packet were not turning PL off when
        sending packets. I was never successful in decoding these.
        Elmer

        Tim Smith wrote:
        >
        > Hi Scott:
        >
        > I was looking at the schematic in the YahooGroups file area to try
        > and see what the EQ jumper actually does. I am missing a few packets
        > from time to time as compared to another TNC that is running a legacy
        > XR2211 demod.
        >
        > I'm looking at audio on both sides of the EQ jumper with and without
        > the jumper and see no difference in how the mark/space tones are
        > handled. I've tried a variety of input levels from an Alinco DR1200
        > data radio. The T2 demod is hearing with a pretty wide dynamic range
        > from 200 mv to over 2v ptp. Live stations out there (around here)
        > range from 300 mv to 2v ptp and am decoding packets at both extremes.
        >
        > I can't find the EQ jumper in the schematic to see what it's supposed
        > to do. Presently, makr/space tones are pretty close in amplitude
        > with a couple of ststions a bit hot on the 1200 hz tone (but no more
        > than 30% difference).
        >
        > Is there an updated schematic and a better explanation of what the EQ
        > jumper is doing?
        >
        > Thanks,
        >
        > Tim
        >
        >
      • Scott Miller
        The EQ jumper is in the input filter section, near C2 and C3. It just switches C3 into the audio input path and flattens the filter response. It s pretty
        Message 3 of 8 , Dec 2, 2007
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          The EQ jumper is in the input filter section, near C2 and C3. It just
          switches C3 into the audio input path and flattens the filter response.
          It's pretty close to the circuit used by the KPC-3 and I think some of
          the TNC-2 clones as well. Somewhere around here I've got plots of the
          frequency response from the Spice simulation.

          Scott

          Tim Smith wrote:
          >
          >
          > Hi Scott:
          >
          > I was looking at the schematic in the YahooGroups file area to try
          > and see what the EQ jumper actually does. I am missing a few packets
          > from time to time as compared to another TNC that is running a legacy
          > XR2211 demod.
          >
          > I'm looking at audio on both sides of the EQ jumper with and without
          > the jumper and see no difference in how the mark/space tones are
          > handled. I've tried a variety of input levels from an Alinco DR1200
          > data radio. The T2 demod is hearing with a pretty wide dynamic range
          > from 200 mv to over 2v ptp. Live stations out there (around here)
          > range from 300 mv to 2v ptp and am decoding packets at both extremes.
          >
          > I can't find the EQ jumper in the schematic to see what it's supposed
          > to do. Presently, makr/space tones are pretty close in amplitude
          > with a couple of ststions a bit hot on the 1200 hz tone (but no more
          > than 30% difference).
          >
          > Is there an updated schematic and a better explanation of what the EQ
          > jumper is doing?
          >
          > Thanks,
          >
          > Tim
          >
          >
        • Tim Smith
          ... some of ... I must be looking at an old schematic (the one in the files area of the tracker2 group). I don t see C2 in the demod section. There is a C2
          Message 4 of 8 , Dec 2, 2007
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            --- In tracker2@yahoogroups.com, Scott Miller <scott@...> wrote:
            >
            > The EQ jumper is in the input filter section, near C2 and C3. It just
            > switches C3 into the audio input path and flattens the filter response.
            > It's pretty close to the circuit used by the KPC-3 and I think
            some of
            > the TNC-2 clones as well. Somewhere around here I've got plots of the
            > frequency response from the Spice simulation.


            I must be looking at an old schematic (the one in the files area of
            the tracker2 group). I don't see C2 in the demod section. There is a
            C2 on the CPU which appears to be a bypass cap for power. There is
            also a couple of pots on the schematic that I don't see on the board.

            I recorded test tones produced by the T2 and played them back. The EQ
            jumper makes no difference in either tone's amplitude when looking at
            the input pin of the demod.

            I am seeing solid copy with a sound card using AGWPE and what the T2
            misses, the sound card is receiving. I hope to be able to record some
            consistent misses by the T2 to get a better look at the waveform.

            Is there an updated T2 schematic?

            Thanks,

            Tim
          • Hank
            ... Tim, Take a look at t2protoc-schematic.png , Schematic for Proto C revision in the files section and you ll see the EQ jumper and C25 (.1) that gets put in
            Message 5 of 8 , Dec 4, 2007
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              > I was looking at the schematic in the YahooGroups file area to try
              > and see what the EQ jumper actually does.

              > I can't find the EQ jumper in the schematic to see what it's
              > supposed to do.

              Tim,

              Take a look at

              t2protoc-schematic.png , Schematic for Proto C revision

              in the files section and you'll see the EQ jumper and C25 (.1) that
              gets put in parallel with C1 (.01).

              > I'm looking at audio on both sides of the EQ jumper with and without
              > the jumper and see no difference in how the mark/space tones are
              > handled.

              That filter is a high pass. Without the jumper, the response
              rises and flattens out around 4.5 KHz.

              With the jumper, it's already flattened by 1 KHz, so both modem
              tones are treated just about equally (at about -5.7 dB average
              referenced to a 1k Ohm source unloaded).

              Without the jumper, 2 KHz is about 4.5 dB stronger than 1 KHz
              (both frequencies still on the skirt of the filter). There is
              also a higher passband loss without the jumper.

              Note that the passband loss of the filter is sensitive to the
              audio source impedance, and an input resistance of much over
              2k Ohms starts to show up in a progressively higher passband
              loss (chiefly due to the shunt 4.7 K Ohm resistor, R8).

              Without assessing the filter properly using a signal generator
              and level sensor (scope or meter), these response differences
              between jumper settings may not be evident.

              Hank
            • Tim Smith
              ... Thanks Hank...that sheds some light on the input circuit, but I m still having problems with the T2 being either a little deaf or not decoding a number of
              Message 6 of 8 , Dec 7, 2007
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                > Take a look at
                > t2protoc-schematic.png , Schematic for Proto C revision
                > in the files section and you'll see the EQ jumper and C25 (.1) that
                > gets put in parallel with C1 (.01).

                Thanks Hank...that sheds some light on the input circuit, but I'm
                still having problems with the T2 being either a little deaf or not
                decoding a number of packets for other reasons. I do not see much of
                a difference in EQ jumper impact, either in decoded packets or what I
                see on the scope in terms of mark/space levels. Both radios I have
                tried are discriminator-tapped (Icom and Alinco)...which are fixed
                level, but also tried full audio chain as well. In all cases, the
                software TNC is hearing much better than the T2.

                Scott...I did some side by side tests when deploying the T2 at our
                digi site. In comparing with two different radios using AGWPE with a
                SBII sound card, I was seeing the expected packets being decoded.
                However, when replacing the sound card TNC with the T2, I'm missing
                about 20% of the packets. I tried a wide range of levels from 50mv to
                2v ptp. There is one station that the T2 will not receive at all
                despite EQ settings, audio levels, etc (which happens to be an
                adjacent wide area digi).

                I began to notice this at home when letting the trial run in prep for
                the wide digi installation.

                Anyone else seeing problems with T2 deafness?

                Thanks,

                Tim
              • Scott Miller
                I ve had a couple of reports, but nothing consistent. You re always welcome to send it back for testing, and I ll run a full decode test against it to see how
                Message 7 of 8 , Dec 7, 2007
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                  I've had a couple of reports, but nothing consistent. You're always
                  welcome to send it back for testing, and I'll run a full decode test
                  against it to see how it compares to the baseline - that'd tell us if
                  there's a problem with your specific unit.

                  Also, what is your power setup? I've had at least one report of bad
                  decode performance that was caused by a noisy power system. Switching
                  to battery power made the problem go away.

                  I've had at least a couple of people report specifically that their T2
                  did BETTER than AGWPE, and while I won't guarantee that'll always be the
                  case it ought to be close.

                  Scott

                  Tim Smith wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > > Take a look at
                  > > t2protoc-schematic.png , Schematic for Proto C revision
                  > > in the files section and you'll see the EQ jumper and C25 (.1) that
                  > > gets put in parallel with C1 (.01).
                  >
                  > Thanks Hank...that sheds some light on the input circuit, but I'm
                  > still having problems with the T2 being either a little deaf or not
                  > decoding a number of packets for other reasons. I do not see much of
                  > a difference in EQ jumper impact, either in decoded packets or what I
                  > see on the scope in terms of mark/space levels. Both radios I have
                  > tried are discriminator-tapped (Icom and Alinco)...which are fixed
                  > level, but also tried full audio chain as well. In all cases, the
                  > software TNC is hearing much better than the T2.
                  >
                  > Scott...I did some side by side tests when deploying the T2 at our
                  > digi site. In comparing with two different radios using AGWPE with a
                  > SBII sound card, I was seeing the expected packets being decoded.
                  > However, when replacing the sound card TNC with the T2, I'm missing
                  > about 20% of the packets. I tried a wide range of levels from 50mv to
                  > 2v ptp. There is one station that the T2 will not receive at all
                  > despite EQ settings, audio levels, etc (which happens to be an
                  > adjacent wide area digi).
                  >
                  > I began to notice this at home when letting the trial run in prep for
                  > the wide digi installation.
                  >
                  > Anyone else seeing problems with T2 deafness?
                  >
                  > Thanks,
                  >
                  > Tim
                  >
                  >
                • Tim Smith
                  ... Thanks Scott...going to try a couple of more things and if no progress, I ll take you up on your offer. -Tim
                  Message 8 of 8 , Dec 9, 2007
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                    --- In tracker2@yahoogroups.com, Scott Miller <scott@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I've had a couple of reports, but nothing consistent. You're always
                    > welcome to send it back for testing, and I'll run a full decode test
                    > against it to see how it compares to the baseline - that'd tell us if
                    > there's a problem with your specific unit.

                    Thanks Scott...going to try a couple of more things and if no
                    progress, I'll take you up on your offer. -Tim
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