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Re: [tracker2] OT2m temperature report way off...

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  • James Ewen
    ... I can wait... ... Have you saved your config file? If so, you can pull that up and read the SmartBeacon parameters without having to pull the unit out of
    Message 1 of 24 , Oct 2, 2007
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      On 10/2/07, mark.rice@... <mark.rice@...> wrote:

      > The OT2m is at home right now. (I rode the motorcycle to work...)

      I can wait...

      > I'd have to connect it up to the computer and see what the config file
      > shows.

      Have you saved your config file? If so, you can pull that up and read
      the SmartBeacon parameters without having to pull the unit out of the
      truck, or take a laptop out to the truck.

      > The 2 packet transmit happens (I think) when I'm negotiating a turn.

      Yup, which is why I am interested in knowing what you have set for
      SmartBeacon parameters.

      Bob Bruninga is dead set against SmartBeaconing because he feels that
      SmartBeacon enabled trackers cause extra QRM. In fact the SmartBeacon
      routine was designed for the exact opposite reason. However it is
      possible to set up the parameters to cause too many packets to be
      sent, just as a timed unit can be set up to beacon far too often.

      My suspicion is that your minimum turn time is set far too low. This
      allows the unit to beacon a couple times as you turn a corner, which
      is not necessary. The CornerPegging routine is designed to catch the
      corners and report them, but it can attempt to send reports multiple
      times in sharp turns. The minimum turn time parameter is included to
      make sure that this doesn't happen.

      If you show us the parameters you have programmed, I can offer some
      suggestions on how you might optimize the settings to keep this from
      happening.

      James
      VE6SRV
    • Steven Palm
      ... So, are these considered production now and out of beta? I m confused because the product page says that regular production is scheduled to begin in
      Message 2 of 24 , Oct 2, 2007
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        On Sep 25, 2007, at 6:32 PM, Scott Miller wrote:
        > FedEx says they'll be here on Thursday. Which figures... I leave for
        > DCC (3000 miles away) early Thursday morning.
        >
        > I have only a limited stock of enclosures at the moment, so they might
        > sell out again quickly. Ten-Tec is starting another batch and they
        > should be done by the end of next month.

        So, are these considered "production" now and out of beta? I'm
        confused because the product page says that regular production is
        scheduled to begin in August... No year, so I don't know if it's just
        not been updated or if plans for for next year. :)

        I've been waiting for this to go production for a while now and sort
        of stopped looking for a while, so I'm just back trying to figure out
        if they are "golden" or not.

        Thanks,

        Steve
      • Scott Miller
        They re in production. I got the first 100 in, though I won t have enough enclosures for them all until the end of the month. The manual is still preliminary
        Message 3 of 24 , Oct 2, 2007
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          They're in production. I got the first 100 in, though I won't have
          enough enclosures for them all until the end of the month. The manual
          is still preliminary (with an update due to be posted tonight) and at
          the moment I'm designing the sticker that'll go on the bottom with the
          power specs, model number, and pinouts - but that's not exactly a
          critical component.

          Once all of that stuff is done, I'll work on getting the marketing
          information updated.

          Scott


          > So, are these considered "production" now and out of beta? I'm
          > confused because the product page says that regular production is
          > scheduled to begin in August... No year, so I don't know if it's just
          > not been updated or if plans for for next year. :)
          >
          > I've been waiting for this to go production for a while now and sort
          > of stopped looking for a while, so I'm just back trying to figure out
          > if they are "golden" or not.
          >
          > Thanks,
          >
          > Steve
        • mark.rice@L-3com.com
          Hey James, thanks for helping me with these settings. When I got home last night a friend of mine wanted my help putting up a 2meter antenna on his 60-foot
          Message 4 of 24 , Oct 3, 2007
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            Hey James, thanks for helping me with these settings. When I got home
            last night a friend of mine wanted my help putting up a 2meter antenna
            on his 60-foot tower. He wants to have an i-gate in an area that's been
            a dead spot for aprs... East of Greenville, Tx. looking eastward on I-30
            toward Texarkana. So I was busy helping him into the late hours.

            Anyway, this morning I got the config info on my OT2m that is used in my
            call, N4CMB-11:

            At speeds between 0 and 40MPH
            Use transmit rate from 300 to 120 Sec
            Transmit when turning more than 24 degrees
            But not more than once every 3 seconds


            Granted, those setting need some refinement.

            And that reminds me, I need to contact K5BNI-1 about his settings too.
            (If you look at the aprs map, you'll see what I mean...)

            - Mark
            N4CMB-11

            _______________
            Bob Bruninga is dead set against SmartBeaconing because he feels that
            SmartBeacon enabled trackers cause extra QRM. In fact the SmartBeacon
            routine was designed for the exact opposite reason. However it is
            possible to set up the parameters to cause too many packets to be sent,
            just as a timed unit can be set up to beacon far too often.

            My suspicion is that your minimum turn time is set far too low. This
            allows the unit to beacon a couple times as you turn a corner, which is
            not necessary. The CornerPegging routine is designed to catch the
            corners and report them, but it can attempt to send reports multiple
            times in sharp turns. The minimum turn time parameter is included to
            make sure that this doesn't happen.

            If you show us the parameters you have programmed, I can offer some
            suggestions on how you might optimize the settings to keep this from
            happening.

            James
            VE6SRV



            Yahoo! Groups Links
          • James Ewen
            ... Okay, let s look at this to see what s happening. First the speed section. Generally you will want to have your low speed threshold set up a little above
            Message 5 of 24 , Oct 3, 2007
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              On 10/3/07, mark.rice@... <mark.rice@...> wrote:

              > At speeds between 0 and 40 MPH
              > Use transmit rate from 300 to 120 Sec
              > Transmit when turning more than 24 degrees
              > But not more than once every 3 seconds

              Okay, let's look at this to see what's happening.

              First the speed section. Generally you will want to have your low
              speed threshold set up a little above zero. Before SA was turned off,
              it was necessary. We usually have the low end set around 5 mph.
              Really, when you are moving that slow, you will be kicking out packets
              due to turns more than distance.

              Your high end speed is lower than usual, but it is valid. Normally
              this is set at top highway speed, but there's no hard fast rule on
              that. Any time you are traveling at or above the high speed setting,
              you will be beaconing at the high speed rate.

              Now, the rate settings... You are asking the unit to beacon every 5
              minutes when it is sitting still. Do you need to tell everyone that
              your vehicle is parked and doing nothing every 5 minutes? The general
              recommendation is to set your low speed rate to 30 minutes. That's
              1800 seconds. This keeps your position updated on most screens,
              without causing excessive QRM on the channel. Your fast rate has you
              reporting every 2 minutes when you are travelling 40 MPH or better.
              This is a reasonable rate. The general baseline is 3 minutes, but 2 is
              okay. It depends on the network load in your area. If there are a lot
              of stations vying for airtime, you might want to slow the rate down to
              make room for everyone. That's also why you would want to have a slow
              rate when stopped, as it allows those who are actually doing something
              active more room to play.

              Your minimum turn angle is good. This value is the base for the
              CornerPegging routine, when you are traveling slow, the turn angle
              required to force a beacon is much larger, based on speed/slope (a
              value Scott has hard coded in the OT line). This is designed so that
              you don't beacon for minor course deviations at slow speeds (lane
              changes) but will catch significant corners on the highway.

              The real source of those rapid beacons is the very small minimum turn
              time you have set. If you are travelling at 5 mph for example, and
              turn a 90 degree corner, you will probably beacon 2 times. This is
              because at that speed, you probably need something like 40 degrees to
              make CornerPegging want to report your course change. In a 90 degree
              corner, you'll find CornerPegging firing off two beacons. The minimum
              turn time is designed to keep that from happening. If you set the
              minimum turn time to 30 seconds, you will definitely be around that
              corner (unless traffic is really bad). This also makes sure you don't
              send a flurry of beacons when winding your way through a parking lot,
              or getting dizzy in a traffic circle.

              So, in summary, I would suggest setting your minimum speed a little
              higher, your slow rate longer, and your minimum turn time longer.

              You need to strike a compromise between reporting rates and sharing
              the channel with others. SmartBeaconing was designed to do just that,
              but you can also set it up to be a network hog. Setting a static
              beacon rate in your D700 of 1 minute and leaving it on all day does
              the same, but Bob doesn't see it that way. At least the D710 drops
              from it's 1 minute rate using a decay algorithm now, back down to 32
              minutes when stationary.

              Hope that helps, and makes sense to you.

              James
              VE6SRV
            • mark.rice@L-3com.com
              Thanks James. I d like to implement some of your comments. Our town of 25,000 people has very little aprs activity, but Dallas isn t far away (45 miles) so I
              Message 6 of 24 , Oct 3, 2007
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                Thanks James. I'd like to implement some of your comments.

                Our town of 25,000 people has very little aprs activity, but Dallas
                isn't far away (45 miles) so I need to be careful with the settings as
                it can impact metro rf (which is why I don't use Wide3 out here).

                The slow speed I can change to 5 or even 10mph. If I'm at 10 or below,
                I'm either coming to a traffic stop or in a parking lot. If it's the
                latter, I don't leave my aprs on. If it's the former, my speed will
                resume in less than 2 minutes. The speed of 40mph was selected because
                of the mostly small-town driving that I do, but I might increase that.

                Regarding the time setting, I will bump that up a bit as well. It can't
                hurt and it very like will help with rf sharing.

                Thanks again, James. I'm grateful for your assistance.

                - Mark
                N4CMB-11



                -----Original Message-----
                From: tracker2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:tracker2@yahoogroups.com] On
                Behalf Of James Ewen
                Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 11:24 AM
                To: tracker2@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [tracker2] OT2m temperature report way off...

                On 10/3/07, mark.rice@... <mark.rice@...> wrote:

                > At speeds between 0 and 40 MPH
                > Use transmit rate from 300 to 120 Sec
                > Transmit when turning more than 24 degrees But not more than once
                > every 3 seconds

                Okay, let's look at this to see what's happening.

                First the speed section. Generally you will want to have your low speed
                threshold set up a little above zero. Before SA was turned off, it was
                necessary. We usually have the low end set around 5 mph.
                Really, when you are moving that slow, you will be kicking out packets
                due to turns more than distance.

                Your high end speed is lower than usual, but it is valid. Normally this
                is set at top highway speed, but there's no hard fast rule on that. Any
                time you are traveling at or above the high speed setting, you will be
                beaconing at the high speed rate.

                Now, the rate settings... You are asking the unit to beacon every 5
                minutes when it is sitting still. Do you need to tell everyone that your
                vehicle is parked and doing nothing every 5 minutes? The general
                recommendation is to set your low speed rate to 30 minutes. That's 1800
                seconds. This keeps your position updated on most screens, without
                causing excessive QRM on the channel. Your fast rate has you reporting
                every 2 minutes when you are travelling 40 MPH or better.
                This is a reasonable rate. The general baseline is 3 minutes, but 2 is
                okay. It depends on the network load in your area. If there are a lot of
                stations vying for airtime, you might want to slow the rate down to make
                room for everyone. That's also why you would want to have a slow rate
                when stopped, as it allows those who are actually doing something active
                more room to play.

                Your minimum turn angle is good. This value is the base for the
                CornerPegging routine, when you are traveling slow, the turn angle
                required to force a beacon is much larger, based on speed/slope (a value
                Scott has hard coded in the OT line). This is designed so that you don't
                beacon for minor course deviations at slow speeds (lane
                changes) but will catch significant corners on the highway.

                The real source of those rapid beacons is the very small minimum turn
                time you have set. If you are travelling at 5 mph for example, and turn
                a 90 degree corner, you will probably beacon 2 times. This is because at
                that speed, you probably need something like 40 degrees to make
                CornerPegging want to report your course change. In a 90 degree corner,
                you'll find CornerPegging firing off two beacons. The minimum turn time
                is designed to keep that from happening. If you set the minimum turn
                time to 30 seconds, you will definitely be around that corner (unless
                traffic is really bad). This also makes sure you don't send a flurry of
                beacons when winding your way through a parking lot, or getting dizzy in
                a traffic circle.

                So, in summary, I would suggest setting your minimum speed a little
                higher, your slow rate longer, and your minimum turn time longer.

                You need to strike a compromise between reporting rates and sharing the
                channel with others. SmartBeaconing was designed to do just that, but
                you can also set it up to be a network hog. Setting a static beacon rate
                in your D700 of 1 minute and leaving it on all day does the same, but
                Bob doesn't see it that way. At least the D710 drops from it's 1 minute
                rate using a decay algorithm now, back down to 32 minutes when
                stationary.

                Hope that helps, and makes sense to you.

                James
                VE6SRV



                Yahoo! Groups Links
              • James Ewen
                ... The impact your small town activity has on Dallas is minimal, but the impact Dallas can have on your small town by using long paths can be very harmful.
                Message 7 of 24 , Oct 3, 2007
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                  On 10/3/07, mark.rice@... <mark.rice@...> wrote:

                  > Our town of 25,000 people has very little aprs activity, but Dallas
                  > isn't far away (45 miles) so I need to be careful with the settings as
                  > it can impact metro rf (which is why I don't use Wide3 out here).

                  The impact your small town activity has on Dallas is minimal, but the
                  impact Dallas can have on your small town by using long paths can be
                  very harmful.

                  > The slow speed I can change to 5 or even 10mph. If I'm at 10 or below,
                  > I'm either coming to a traffic stop or in a parking lot. If it's the
                  > latter, I don't leave my aprs on. If it's the former, my speed will
                  > resume in less than 2 minutes. The speed of 40mph was selected because
                  > of the mostly small-town driving that I do, but I might increase that.

                  Yup, your reasoning makes sense. The idea of having a slow rate at low
                  speeds is so that people can leave their trackers on, and not cause
                  problems doing so. Some people leave them on 24/7, and when they are
                  beaconing every 3 minutes, it wastes a lot of network airtime with
                  static information.

                  > Regarding the time setting, I will bump that up a bit as well. It can't
                  > hurt and it very like will help with rf sharing.

                  Increase that min turn time, and you'll be a very polite APRS users.
                  Now, K5BNI-1 on the other hand is a little crazy. He's sending beacons
                  every 10 seconds. I don't think it's SmartBeaconing, but rather just a
                  static time setting. If you know him well, you have a good chance of
                  showing him the reasoning behind using SmartBeaconing. If you don't
                  know him, you really have to watch how you approach him to ask for a
                  change in settings. I've had people give me explicit instructions on
                  where to go, and how to get there when trying to make contact about
                  changing parameters.

                  James
                  VE6SRV
                • Dan
                  I went through a similar thought process. In my case, I am trying to prototype how we would track several red cross feeding vehicles in a county the size of
                  Message 8 of 24 , Oct 3, 2007
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                    I went through a similar thought process.

                    In my case, I am trying to prototype how we would track several red cross feeding vehicles in a county the size of several small states.

                    I came up with the idea that I'm not really trying to figure out their route, I'm more concerned about where they are within a few miles. That meant that packets can be sent less often, and only when the position has changed more than a few miles (which works out to about 20 minutes or so.)

                    In any case, I can poll the tracker to find out where it is at any one time now :)

                    -Dan N7NMD


                    On 10/3/07, mark.rice@... <mark.rice@...> wrote:

                    Thanks James. I'd like to implement some of your comments.

                    Our town of 25,000 people has very little aprs activity, but Dallas
                    isn't far away (45 miles) so I need to be careful with the settings as
                    it can impact metro rf (which is why I don't use Wide3 out here).

                    The slow speed I can change to 5 or even 10mph. If I'm at 10 or below,
                    I'm either coming to a traffic stop or in a parking lot. If it's the
                    latter, I don't leave my aprs on. If it's the former, my speed will
                    resume in less than 2 minutes. The speed of 40mph was selected because
                    of the mostly small-town driving that I do, but I might increase that.

                    Regarding the time setting, I will bump that up a bit as well. It can't
                    hurt and it very like will help with rf sharing.

                    Thanks again, James. I'm grateful for your assistance.

                    - Mark
                    N4CMB-11

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: tracker2@yahoogroups.com [mailto: tracker2@yahoogroups.com] On
                    Behalf Of James Ewen
                    Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 11:24 AM
                    To: tracker2@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [tracker2] OT2m temperature report way off...

                    On 10/3/07, mark.rice@... < mark.rice@...> wrote:

                    > At speeds between 0 and 40 MPH
                    > Use transmit rate from 300 to 120 Sec
                    > Transmit when turning more than 24 degrees But not more than once
                    > every 3 seconds

                    Okay, let's look at this to see what's happening.

                    First the speed section. Generally you will want to have your low speed
                    threshold set up a little above zero. Before SA was turned off, it was
                    necessary. We usually have the low end set around 5 mph.
                    Really, when you are moving that slow, you will be kicking out packets
                    due to turns more than distance.

                    Your high end speed is lower than usual, but it is valid. Normally this
                    is set at top highway speed, but there's no hard fast rule on that. Any
                    time you are traveling at or above the high speed setting, you will be
                    beaconing at the high speed rate.

                    Now, the rate settings... You are asking the unit to beacon every 5
                    minutes when it is sitting still. Do you need to tell everyone that your
                    vehicle is parked and doing nothing every 5 minutes? The general
                    recommendation is to set your low speed rate to 30 minutes. That's 1800
                    seconds. This keeps your position updated on most screens, without
                    causing excessive QRM on the channel. Your fast rate has you reporting
                    every 2 minutes when you are travelling 40 MPH or better.
                    This is a reasonable rate. The general baseline is 3 minutes, but 2 is
                    okay. It depends on the network load in your area. If there are a lot of
                    stations vying for airtime, you might want to slow the rate down to make
                    room for everyone. That's also why you would want to have a slow rate
                    when stopped, as it allows those who are actually doing something active
                    more room to play.

                    Your minimum turn angle is good. This value is the base for the
                    CornerPegging routine, when you are traveling slow, the turn angle
                    required to force a beacon is much larger, based on speed/slope (a value
                    Scott has hard coded in the OT line). This is designed so that you don't
                    beacon for minor course deviations at slow speeds (lane
                    changes) but will catch significant corners on the highway.

                    The real source of those rapid beacons is the very small minimum turn
                    time you have set. If you are travelling at 5 mph for example, and turn
                    a 90 degree corner, you will probably beacon 2 times. This is because at
                    that speed, you probably need something like 40 degrees to make
                    CornerPegging want to report your course change. In a 90 degree corner,
                    you'll find CornerPegging firing off two beacons. The minimum turn time
                    is designed to keep that from happening. If you set the minimum turn
                    time to 30 seconds, you will definitely be around that corner (unless
                    traffic is really bad). This also makes sure you don't send a flurry of
                    beacons when winding your way through a parking lot, or getting dizzy in
                    a traffic circle.

                    So, in summary, I would suggest setting your minimum speed a little
                    higher, your slow rate longer, and your minimum turn time longer.

                    You need to strike a compromise between reporting rates and sharing the
                    channel with others. SmartBeaconing was designed to do just that, but
                    you can also set it up to be a network hog. Setting a static beacon rate
                    in your D700 of 1 minute and leaving it on all day does the same, but
                    Bob doesn't see it that way. At least the D710 drops from it's 1 minute
                    rate using a decay algorithm now, back down to 32 minutes when
                    stationary.

                    Hope that helps, and makes sense to you.

                    James
                    VE6SRV

                    Yahoo! Groups Links


                  • Keith VE7GDH
                    James VE6SRV wrote... ... You must be mistaken there - hi! He just said over on the APRS SIG... ... Of course, we all know that SmartBeaconing does a lot more
                    Message 9 of 24 , Oct 4, 2007
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                      James VE6SRV wrote...

                      > Bob Bruninga is dead set against SmartBeaconing because he feels that
                      > SmartBeacon enabled trackers cause extra QRM.

                      You must be mistaken there - hi! He just said over on the APRS SIG...

                      > I have no problem with smart beaconing if somehow it can be set
                      > to AVERAGE no more than about one packet per minute or less like
                      > everyone else...

                      Of course, we all know that SmartBeaconing does a lot more than allow you to
                      have it beacon every minute. It is precisely to prevent something like that
                      happening that SmartBeaconing exists.

                      Also, see a message from Steve KA9MVA from nearly a year ago...
                      www.tapr.org/pipermail/aprssig/2006-November/016924.html
                      and a reply from Bob WB4APR...
                      www.tapr.org/pipermail/aprssig/2006-November/016925.html
                      where he said "I agree completely with all you said."

                      I also suggested that if Kenwood has designed the D710 to allow updates
                      (they released a couple of minor updates the other day) then they could also
                      do an update to add SmartBeaconing. I could have missed it, but I don't
                      think I have seen a reply on that yet.

                      73 es cul - Keith VE7GDH
                      --
                      "I may be lost, but I know exactly where I am!"
                    • James Ewen
                      ... That just goes to show that he still hasn t even looked at the concept of SmartBeaconing. If he did, he would know that it can easily do just that. I can
                      Message 10 of 24 , Oct 4, 2007
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                        On 10/4/07, Keith VE7GDH <ve7gdh@...> wrote:

                        > > I have no problem with smart beaconing if somehow it can be set
                        > > to AVERAGE no more than about one packet per minute or less like
                        > > everyone else...

                        That just goes to show that he still hasn't even looked at the concept
                        of SmartBeaconing. If he did, he would know that it can easily do just
                        that.

                        I can make the same uninformed statement about every other APRS
                        application out there. The Kenwood units have the capability to set
                        them up to beacon every 12 seconds. I don't know of any lower limits
                        in any software APRS program. I can set UI-View up to beacon every
                        second. I bet I can set APRSdos to beacon at less than a 1 minute
                        interval.

                        Because an implementation can be configured at a rate of less than one
                        packet per minute does not mean that it will AVERAGE more than that. I
                        can run SmartBeaconing configured to beacon once every 10 seconds,
                        drive for 1 hour, and then park for 6 hours beaconing once per hour.
                        Does this fulfill Bob's 1 minute average criteria?

                        > Of course, we all know that SmartBeaconing does a lot more than allow you to
                        > have it beacon every minute. It is precisely to prevent something like that
                        > happening that SmartBeaconing exists.

                        We do indeed, and I sure am glad that developers like Scott take the
                        time to understand a concept to the point where they add it to their
                        own hardware.

                        > I also suggested that if Kenwood has designed the D710 to allow updates
                        > (they released a couple of minor updates the other day) then they could also
                        > do an update to add SmartBeaconing. I could have missed it, but I don't
                        > think I have seen a reply on that yet.

                        I'm working on that... the bug is in Kenwood's ear if I can believe
                        the reports from DCC. If Bob is as happy with SmartBeaconing as he
                        suggests in the messages you point out, then there should be little
                        reason for not implementing the best network airtime conservation
                        routine around.

                        James
                        VE6SRV
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