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RE: [tracker2] OT2m temperature report way off...

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  • mark.rice@L-3com.com
    The OT2m is at home right now. (I rode the motorcycle to work...) I d have to connect it up to the computer and see what the config file shows. The 2 packet
    Message 1 of 24 , Oct 2, 2007
      The OT2m is at home right now. (I rode the motorcycle to work...)

      I'd have to connect it up to the computer and see what the config file
      shows.

      The 2 packet transmit happens (I think) when I'm negotiating a turn.

      - Mark
      N4CMB-11 (OT2m)
      N4CMB-10 (TT3+ or OT1+)

      -----Original Message-----
      From: tracker2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:tracker2@yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf Of James Ewen
      Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 5:09 PM
      To: tracker2@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [tracker2] OT2m temperature report way off...

      Just out of curiosity Mark, what are your SmartBeacon settings?

      You occasionally pump out 2 packets within 4 seconds of each other.

      James
      VE6SRV



      Yahoo! Groups Links
    • James Ewen
      ... I can wait... ... Have you saved your config file? If so, you can pull that up and read the SmartBeacon parameters without having to pull the unit out of
      Message 2 of 24 , Oct 2, 2007
        On 10/2/07, mark.rice@... <mark.rice@...> wrote:

        > The OT2m is at home right now. (I rode the motorcycle to work...)

        I can wait...

        > I'd have to connect it up to the computer and see what the config file
        > shows.

        Have you saved your config file? If so, you can pull that up and read
        the SmartBeacon parameters without having to pull the unit out of the
        truck, or take a laptop out to the truck.

        > The 2 packet transmit happens (I think) when I'm negotiating a turn.

        Yup, which is why I am interested in knowing what you have set for
        SmartBeacon parameters.

        Bob Bruninga is dead set against SmartBeaconing because he feels that
        SmartBeacon enabled trackers cause extra QRM. In fact the SmartBeacon
        routine was designed for the exact opposite reason. However it is
        possible to set up the parameters to cause too many packets to be
        sent, just as a timed unit can be set up to beacon far too often.

        My suspicion is that your minimum turn time is set far too low. This
        allows the unit to beacon a couple times as you turn a corner, which
        is not necessary. The CornerPegging routine is designed to catch the
        corners and report them, but it can attempt to send reports multiple
        times in sharp turns. The minimum turn time parameter is included to
        make sure that this doesn't happen.

        If you show us the parameters you have programmed, I can offer some
        suggestions on how you might optimize the settings to keep this from
        happening.

        James
        VE6SRV
      • Steven Palm
        ... So, are these considered production now and out of beta? I m confused because the product page says that regular production is scheduled to begin in
        Message 3 of 24 , Oct 2, 2007
          On Sep 25, 2007, at 6:32 PM, Scott Miller wrote:
          > FedEx says they'll be here on Thursday. Which figures... I leave for
          > DCC (3000 miles away) early Thursday morning.
          >
          > I have only a limited stock of enclosures at the moment, so they might
          > sell out again quickly. Ten-Tec is starting another batch and they
          > should be done by the end of next month.

          So, are these considered "production" now and out of beta? I'm
          confused because the product page says that regular production is
          scheduled to begin in August... No year, so I don't know if it's just
          not been updated or if plans for for next year. :)

          I've been waiting for this to go production for a while now and sort
          of stopped looking for a while, so I'm just back trying to figure out
          if they are "golden" or not.

          Thanks,

          Steve
        • Scott Miller
          They re in production. I got the first 100 in, though I won t have enough enclosures for them all until the end of the month. The manual is still preliminary
          Message 4 of 24 , Oct 2, 2007
            They're in production. I got the first 100 in, though I won't have
            enough enclosures for them all until the end of the month. The manual
            is still preliminary (with an update due to be posted tonight) and at
            the moment I'm designing the sticker that'll go on the bottom with the
            power specs, model number, and pinouts - but that's not exactly a
            critical component.

            Once all of that stuff is done, I'll work on getting the marketing
            information updated.

            Scott


            > So, are these considered "production" now and out of beta? I'm
            > confused because the product page says that regular production is
            > scheduled to begin in August... No year, so I don't know if it's just
            > not been updated or if plans for for next year. :)
            >
            > I've been waiting for this to go production for a while now and sort
            > of stopped looking for a while, so I'm just back trying to figure out
            > if they are "golden" or not.
            >
            > Thanks,
            >
            > Steve
          • mark.rice@L-3com.com
            Hey James, thanks for helping me with these settings. When I got home last night a friend of mine wanted my help putting up a 2meter antenna on his 60-foot
            Message 5 of 24 , Oct 3, 2007
              Hey James, thanks for helping me with these settings. When I got home
              last night a friend of mine wanted my help putting up a 2meter antenna
              on his 60-foot tower. He wants to have an i-gate in an area that's been
              a dead spot for aprs... East of Greenville, Tx. looking eastward on I-30
              toward Texarkana. So I was busy helping him into the late hours.

              Anyway, this morning I got the config info on my OT2m that is used in my
              call, N4CMB-11:

              At speeds between 0 and 40MPH
              Use transmit rate from 300 to 120 Sec
              Transmit when turning more than 24 degrees
              But not more than once every 3 seconds


              Granted, those setting need some refinement.

              And that reminds me, I need to contact K5BNI-1 about his settings too.
              (If you look at the aprs map, you'll see what I mean...)

              - Mark
              N4CMB-11

              _______________
              Bob Bruninga is dead set against SmartBeaconing because he feels that
              SmartBeacon enabled trackers cause extra QRM. In fact the SmartBeacon
              routine was designed for the exact opposite reason. However it is
              possible to set up the parameters to cause too many packets to be sent,
              just as a timed unit can be set up to beacon far too often.

              My suspicion is that your minimum turn time is set far too low. This
              allows the unit to beacon a couple times as you turn a corner, which is
              not necessary. The CornerPegging routine is designed to catch the
              corners and report them, but it can attempt to send reports multiple
              times in sharp turns. The minimum turn time parameter is included to
              make sure that this doesn't happen.

              If you show us the parameters you have programmed, I can offer some
              suggestions on how you might optimize the settings to keep this from
              happening.

              James
              VE6SRV



              Yahoo! Groups Links
            • James Ewen
              ... Okay, let s look at this to see what s happening. First the speed section. Generally you will want to have your low speed threshold set up a little above
              Message 6 of 24 , Oct 3, 2007
                On 10/3/07, mark.rice@... <mark.rice@...> wrote:

                > At speeds between 0 and 40 MPH
                > Use transmit rate from 300 to 120 Sec
                > Transmit when turning more than 24 degrees
                > But not more than once every 3 seconds

                Okay, let's look at this to see what's happening.

                First the speed section. Generally you will want to have your low
                speed threshold set up a little above zero. Before SA was turned off,
                it was necessary. We usually have the low end set around 5 mph.
                Really, when you are moving that slow, you will be kicking out packets
                due to turns more than distance.

                Your high end speed is lower than usual, but it is valid. Normally
                this is set at top highway speed, but there's no hard fast rule on
                that. Any time you are traveling at or above the high speed setting,
                you will be beaconing at the high speed rate.

                Now, the rate settings... You are asking the unit to beacon every 5
                minutes when it is sitting still. Do you need to tell everyone that
                your vehicle is parked and doing nothing every 5 minutes? The general
                recommendation is to set your low speed rate to 30 minutes. That's
                1800 seconds. This keeps your position updated on most screens,
                without causing excessive QRM on the channel. Your fast rate has you
                reporting every 2 minutes when you are travelling 40 MPH or better.
                This is a reasonable rate. The general baseline is 3 minutes, but 2 is
                okay. It depends on the network load in your area. If there are a lot
                of stations vying for airtime, you might want to slow the rate down to
                make room for everyone. That's also why you would want to have a slow
                rate when stopped, as it allows those who are actually doing something
                active more room to play.

                Your minimum turn angle is good. This value is the base for the
                CornerPegging routine, when you are traveling slow, the turn angle
                required to force a beacon is much larger, based on speed/slope (a
                value Scott has hard coded in the OT line). This is designed so that
                you don't beacon for minor course deviations at slow speeds (lane
                changes) but will catch significant corners on the highway.

                The real source of those rapid beacons is the very small minimum turn
                time you have set. If you are travelling at 5 mph for example, and
                turn a 90 degree corner, you will probably beacon 2 times. This is
                because at that speed, you probably need something like 40 degrees to
                make CornerPegging want to report your course change. In a 90 degree
                corner, you'll find CornerPegging firing off two beacons. The minimum
                turn time is designed to keep that from happening. If you set the
                minimum turn time to 30 seconds, you will definitely be around that
                corner (unless traffic is really bad). This also makes sure you don't
                send a flurry of beacons when winding your way through a parking lot,
                or getting dizzy in a traffic circle.

                So, in summary, I would suggest setting your minimum speed a little
                higher, your slow rate longer, and your minimum turn time longer.

                You need to strike a compromise between reporting rates and sharing
                the channel with others. SmartBeaconing was designed to do just that,
                but you can also set it up to be a network hog. Setting a static
                beacon rate in your D700 of 1 minute and leaving it on all day does
                the same, but Bob doesn't see it that way. At least the D710 drops
                from it's 1 minute rate using a decay algorithm now, back down to 32
                minutes when stationary.

                Hope that helps, and makes sense to you.

                James
                VE6SRV
              • mark.rice@L-3com.com
                Thanks James. I d like to implement some of your comments. Our town of 25,000 people has very little aprs activity, but Dallas isn t far away (45 miles) so I
                Message 7 of 24 , Oct 3, 2007
                  Thanks James. I'd like to implement some of your comments.

                  Our town of 25,000 people has very little aprs activity, but Dallas
                  isn't far away (45 miles) so I need to be careful with the settings as
                  it can impact metro rf (which is why I don't use Wide3 out here).

                  The slow speed I can change to 5 or even 10mph. If I'm at 10 or below,
                  I'm either coming to a traffic stop or in a parking lot. If it's the
                  latter, I don't leave my aprs on. If it's the former, my speed will
                  resume in less than 2 minutes. The speed of 40mph was selected because
                  of the mostly small-town driving that I do, but I might increase that.

                  Regarding the time setting, I will bump that up a bit as well. It can't
                  hurt and it very like will help with rf sharing.

                  Thanks again, James. I'm grateful for your assistance.

                  - Mark
                  N4CMB-11



                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: tracker2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:tracker2@yahoogroups.com] On
                  Behalf Of James Ewen
                  Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 11:24 AM
                  To: tracker2@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [tracker2] OT2m temperature report way off...

                  On 10/3/07, mark.rice@... <mark.rice@...> wrote:

                  > At speeds between 0 and 40 MPH
                  > Use transmit rate from 300 to 120 Sec
                  > Transmit when turning more than 24 degrees But not more than once
                  > every 3 seconds

                  Okay, let's look at this to see what's happening.

                  First the speed section. Generally you will want to have your low speed
                  threshold set up a little above zero. Before SA was turned off, it was
                  necessary. We usually have the low end set around 5 mph.
                  Really, when you are moving that slow, you will be kicking out packets
                  due to turns more than distance.

                  Your high end speed is lower than usual, but it is valid. Normally this
                  is set at top highway speed, but there's no hard fast rule on that. Any
                  time you are traveling at or above the high speed setting, you will be
                  beaconing at the high speed rate.

                  Now, the rate settings... You are asking the unit to beacon every 5
                  minutes when it is sitting still. Do you need to tell everyone that your
                  vehicle is parked and doing nothing every 5 minutes? The general
                  recommendation is to set your low speed rate to 30 minutes. That's 1800
                  seconds. This keeps your position updated on most screens, without
                  causing excessive QRM on the channel. Your fast rate has you reporting
                  every 2 minutes when you are travelling 40 MPH or better.
                  This is a reasonable rate. The general baseline is 3 minutes, but 2 is
                  okay. It depends on the network load in your area. If there are a lot of
                  stations vying for airtime, you might want to slow the rate down to make
                  room for everyone. That's also why you would want to have a slow rate
                  when stopped, as it allows those who are actually doing something active
                  more room to play.

                  Your minimum turn angle is good. This value is the base for the
                  CornerPegging routine, when you are traveling slow, the turn angle
                  required to force a beacon is much larger, based on speed/slope (a value
                  Scott has hard coded in the OT line). This is designed so that you don't
                  beacon for minor course deviations at slow speeds (lane
                  changes) but will catch significant corners on the highway.

                  The real source of those rapid beacons is the very small minimum turn
                  time you have set. If you are travelling at 5 mph for example, and turn
                  a 90 degree corner, you will probably beacon 2 times. This is because at
                  that speed, you probably need something like 40 degrees to make
                  CornerPegging want to report your course change. In a 90 degree corner,
                  you'll find CornerPegging firing off two beacons. The minimum turn time
                  is designed to keep that from happening. If you set the minimum turn
                  time to 30 seconds, you will definitely be around that corner (unless
                  traffic is really bad). This also makes sure you don't send a flurry of
                  beacons when winding your way through a parking lot, or getting dizzy in
                  a traffic circle.

                  So, in summary, I would suggest setting your minimum speed a little
                  higher, your slow rate longer, and your minimum turn time longer.

                  You need to strike a compromise between reporting rates and sharing the
                  channel with others. SmartBeaconing was designed to do just that, but
                  you can also set it up to be a network hog. Setting a static beacon rate
                  in your D700 of 1 minute and leaving it on all day does the same, but
                  Bob doesn't see it that way. At least the D710 drops from it's 1 minute
                  rate using a decay algorithm now, back down to 32 minutes when
                  stationary.

                  Hope that helps, and makes sense to you.

                  James
                  VE6SRV



                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                • James Ewen
                  ... The impact your small town activity has on Dallas is minimal, but the impact Dallas can have on your small town by using long paths can be very harmful.
                  Message 8 of 24 , Oct 3, 2007
                    On 10/3/07, mark.rice@... <mark.rice@...> wrote:

                    > Our town of 25,000 people has very little aprs activity, but Dallas
                    > isn't far away (45 miles) so I need to be careful with the settings as
                    > it can impact metro rf (which is why I don't use Wide3 out here).

                    The impact your small town activity has on Dallas is minimal, but the
                    impact Dallas can have on your small town by using long paths can be
                    very harmful.

                    > The slow speed I can change to 5 or even 10mph. If I'm at 10 or below,
                    > I'm either coming to a traffic stop or in a parking lot. If it's the
                    > latter, I don't leave my aprs on. If it's the former, my speed will
                    > resume in less than 2 minutes. The speed of 40mph was selected because
                    > of the mostly small-town driving that I do, but I might increase that.

                    Yup, your reasoning makes sense. The idea of having a slow rate at low
                    speeds is so that people can leave their trackers on, and not cause
                    problems doing so. Some people leave them on 24/7, and when they are
                    beaconing every 3 minutes, it wastes a lot of network airtime with
                    static information.

                    > Regarding the time setting, I will bump that up a bit as well. It can't
                    > hurt and it very like will help with rf sharing.

                    Increase that min turn time, and you'll be a very polite APRS users.
                    Now, K5BNI-1 on the other hand is a little crazy. He's sending beacons
                    every 10 seconds. I don't think it's SmartBeaconing, but rather just a
                    static time setting. If you know him well, you have a good chance of
                    showing him the reasoning behind using SmartBeaconing. If you don't
                    know him, you really have to watch how you approach him to ask for a
                    change in settings. I've had people give me explicit instructions on
                    where to go, and how to get there when trying to make contact about
                    changing parameters.

                    James
                    VE6SRV
                  • Dan
                    I went through a similar thought process. In my case, I am trying to prototype how we would track several red cross feeding vehicles in a county the size of
                    Message 9 of 24 , Oct 3, 2007
                      I went through a similar thought process.

                      In my case, I am trying to prototype how we would track several red cross feeding vehicles in a county the size of several small states.

                      I came up with the idea that I'm not really trying to figure out their route, I'm more concerned about where they are within a few miles. That meant that packets can be sent less often, and only when the position has changed more than a few miles (which works out to about 20 minutes or so.)

                      In any case, I can poll the tracker to find out where it is at any one time now :)

                      -Dan N7NMD


                      On 10/3/07, mark.rice@... <mark.rice@...> wrote:

                      Thanks James. I'd like to implement some of your comments.

                      Our town of 25,000 people has very little aprs activity, but Dallas
                      isn't far away (45 miles) so I need to be careful with the settings as
                      it can impact metro rf (which is why I don't use Wide3 out here).

                      The slow speed I can change to 5 or even 10mph. If I'm at 10 or below,
                      I'm either coming to a traffic stop or in a parking lot. If it's the
                      latter, I don't leave my aprs on. If it's the former, my speed will
                      resume in less than 2 minutes. The speed of 40mph was selected because
                      of the mostly small-town driving that I do, but I might increase that.

                      Regarding the time setting, I will bump that up a bit as well. It can't
                      hurt and it very like will help with rf sharing.

                      Thanks again, James. I'm grateful for your assistance.

                      - Mark
                      N4CMB-11

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: tracker2@yahoogroups.com [mailto: tracker2@yahoogroups.com] On
                      Behalf Of James Ewen
                      Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 11:24 AM
                      To: tracker2@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [tracker2] OT2m temperature report way off...

                      On 10/3/07, mark.rice@... < mark.rice@...> wrote:

                      > At speeds between 0 and 40 MPH
                      > Use transmit rate from 300 to 120 Sec
                      > Transmit when turning more than 24 degrees But not more than once
                      > every 3 seconds

                      Okay, let's look at this to see what's happening.

                      First the speed section. Generally you will want to have your low speed
                      threshold set up a little above zero. Before SA was turned off, it was
                      necessary. We usually have the low end set around 5 mph.
                      Really, when you are moving that slow, you will be kicking out packets
                      due to turns more than distance.

                      Your high end speed is lower than usual, but it is valid. Normally this
                      is set at top highway speed, but there's no hard fast rule on that. Any
                      time you are traveling at or above the high speed setting, you will be
                      beaconing at the high speed rate.

                      Now, the rate settings... You are asking the unit to beacon every 5
                      minutes when it is sitting still. Do you need to tell everyone that your
                      vehicle is parked and doing nothing every 5 minutes? The general
                      recommendation is to set your low speed rate to 30 minutes. That's 1800
                      seconds. This keeps your position updated on most screens, without
                      causing excessive QRM on the channel. Your fast rate has you reporting
                      every 2 minutes when you are travelling 40 MPH or better.
                      This is a reasonable rate. The general baseline is 3 minutes, but 2 is
                      okay. It depends on the network load in your area. If there are a lot of
                      stations vying for airtime, you might want to slow the rate down to make
                      room for everyone. That's also why you would want to have a slow rate
                      when stopped, as it allows those who are actually doing something active
                      more room to play.

                      Your minimum turn angle is good. This value is the base for the
                      CornerPegging routine, when you are traveling slow, the turn angle
                      required to force a beacon is much larger, based on speed/slope (a value
                      Scott has hard coded in the OT line). This is designed so that you don't
                      beacon for minor course deviations at slow speeds (lane
                      changes) but will catch significant corners on the highway.

                      The real source of those rapid beacons is the very small minimum turn
                      time you have set. If you are travelling at 5 mph for example, and turn
                      a 90 degree corner, you will probably beacon 2 times. This is because at
                      that speed, you probably need something like 40 degrees to make
                      CornerPegging want to report your course change. In a 90 degree corner,
                      you'll find CornerPegging firing off two beacons. The minimum turn time
                      is designed to keep that from happening. If you set the minimum turn
                      time to 30 seconds, you will definitely be around that corner (unless
                      traffic is really bad). This also makes sure you don't send a flurry of
                      beacons when winding your way through a parking lot, or getting dizzy in
                      a traffic circle.

                      So, in summary, I would suggest setting your minimum speed a little
                      higher, your slow rate longer, and your minimum turn time longer.

                      You need to strike a compromise between reporting rates and sharing the
                      channel with others. SmartBeaconing was designed to do just that, but
                      you can also set it up to be a network hog. Setting a static beacon rate
                      in your D700 of 1 minute and leaving it on all day does the same, but
                      Bob doesn't see it that way. At least the D710 drops from it's 1 minute
                      rate using a decay algorithm now, back down to 32 minutes when
                      stationary.

                      Hope that helps, and makes sense to you.

                      James
                      VE6SRV

                      Yahoo! Groups Links


                    • Keith VE7GDH
                      James VE6SRV wrote... ... You must be mistaken there - hi! He just said over on the APRS SIG... ... Of course, we all know that SmartBeaconing does a lot more
                      Message 10 of 24 , Oct 4, 2007
                        James VE6SRV wrote...

                        > Bob Bruninga is dead set against SmartBeaconing because he feels that
                        > SmartBeacon enabled trackers cause extra QRM.

                        You must be mistaken there - hi! He just said over on the APRS SIG...

                        > I have no problem with smart beaconing if somehow it can be set
                        > to AVERAGE no more than about one packet per minute or less like
                        > everyone else...

                        Of course, we all know that SmartBeaconing does a lot more than allow you to
                        have it beacon every minute. It is precisely to prevent something like that
                        happening that SmartBeaconing exists.

                        Also, see a message from Steve KA9MVA from nearly a year ago...
                        www.tapr.org/pipermail/aprssig/2006-November/016924.html
                        and a reply from Bob WB4APR...
                        www.tapr.org/pipermail/aprssig/2006-November/016925.html
                        where he said "I agree completely with all you said."

                        I also suggested that if Kenwood has designed the D710 to allow updates
                        (they released a couple of minor updates the other day) then they could also
                        do an update to add SmartBeaconing. I could have missed it, but I don't
                        think I have seen a reply on that yet.

                        73 es cul - Keith VE7GDH
                        --
                        "I may be lost, but I know exactly where I am!"
                      • James Ewen
                        ... That just goes to show that he still hasn t even looked at the concept of SmartBeaconing. If he did, he would know that it can easily do just that. I can
                        Message 11 of 24 , Oct 4, 2007
                          On 10/4/07, Keith VE7GDH <ve7gdh@...> wrote:

                          > > I have no problem with smart beaconing if somehow it can be set
                          > > to AVERAGE no more than about one packet per minute or less like
                          > > everyone else...

                          That just goes to show that he still hasn't even looked at the concept
                          of SmartBeaconing. If he did, he would know that it can easily do just
                          that.

                          I can make the same uninformed statement about every other APRS
                          application out there. The Kenwood units have the capability to set
                          them up to beacon every 12 seconds. I don't know of any lower limits
                          in any software APRS program. I can set UI-View up to beacon every
                          second. I bet I can set APRSdos to beacon at less than a 1 minute
                          interval.

                          Because an implementation can be configured at a rate of less than one
                          packet per minute does not mean that it will AVERAGE more than that. I
                          can run SmartBeaconing configured to beacon once every 10 seconds,
                          drive for 1 hour, and then park for 6 hours beaconing once per hour.
                          Does this fulfill Bob's 1 minute average criteria?

                          > Of course, we all know that SmartBeaconing does a lot more than allow you to
                          > have it beacon every minute. It is precisely to prevent something like that
                          > happening that SmartBeaconing exists.

                          We do indeed, and I sure am glad that developers like Scott take the
                          time to understand a concept to the point where they add it to their
                          own hardware.

                          > I also suggested that if Kenwood has designed the D710 to allow updates
                          > (they released a couple of minor updates the other day) then they could also
                          > do an update to add SmartBeaconing. I could have missed it, but I don't
                          > think I have seen a reply on that yet.

                          I'm working on that... the bug is in Kenwood's ear if I can believe
                          the reports from DCC. If Bob is as happy with SmartBeaconing as he
                          suggests in the messages you point out, then there should be little
                          reason for not implementing the best network airtime conservation
                          routine around.

                          James
                          VE6SRV
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