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New feature for the OT2

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  • James Ewen
    I just answered a recurring question for the umpteenth time on the NWAPRS reflector... How come I see delayed packets. My theory that I am sticking with is
    Message 1 of 7 , May 4, 2007
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      I just answered a recurring question for the umpteenth time on the
      NWAPRS reflector... How come I see delayed packets.

      My theory that I am sticking with is channel overloading. I run
      UI-Traffic on my home station with UI-View. It allows me to graph the
      traffic that I see at my station. It also sends out an object beacon
      every 10 minutes with the latest channel loading, like this:

      VE6SRV-1>APU25N,TCPIP*,qAC,T2MONTANA:;SRV
      *040259z5331.31N\11317.42W?28 In 10 Minutes

      I keep trying to convice people that even if it is quiet in the
      valley, the channel may be overloaded up at the digipeater. Packets
      that have the hops all used up still get heard at the digipeater, they
      just don't get acted upon. They still use up local air time.

      So I was thinking, maybe I could put a computer up at the digipeater,
      and have the OT2 send the packets to the computer which would be able
      to graph the activity. But then I thought, most people wouldn't want
      to have a computer at the digi, nor would they have internet access
      there. Hmm, what about having the digipeater keep track of the number
      of packets heard, and report that the same as UI-Traffic does. Even
      beyond that it could report packets heard, and packets digipeated.
      This would inform people of how many packets are being heard versus
      the number that get digipeated. It's quite possible to have 30 packets
      heard per minute, but only 10 of those digipeated because the other 20
      had used up paths. To users in the valley below, the channel load
      appears to only be 33% of what the digipeater is hearing.

      This would be a useful tool to teach people that putting digipeaters
      on the absolute highest point around is not such a good thing in high
      use areas. Highly congested areas need to pull the high digis down and
      create more smaller coverage area digis to allow for the higher user
      density.

      To implement something like this would only take a couple variables,
      one to keep a 10 minute timer, one to keep track of the number of
      packets heard, and a final one to keep track of the number of packets
      digipeated. You'd also need a command line switch to enable/disable
      sending the report out. Obviously some people would not want the
      report, and some would. The reporting could be turned on occasionally
      to assess traffic loading, and turned off again later.

      The report could be something along the lines of
      SRV *040259z5331.31N\11317.42W?34 of 56 in 10 minutes

      BTW Scott, I'll be at Dayton, and I have a whole sack full of whacky
      ideas I want to throw at you including multiple outgoing path
      settings, and geodigipeating.

      James
      VE6SRV
    • Jason Rausch
      ... I LOVE this idea! I have been hoping for somthing similar myself. You re right, what the digi hears and what we GET TO hear is two totally different
      Message 2 of 7 , May 4, 2007
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        --- James Ewen <ve6srv@...> wrote:

        > Hmm, what about having the digipeater keep
        > track of the number
        > of packets heard, and report that the same as
        > UI-Traffic does. Even
        > beyond that it could report packets heard, and
        > packets digipeated.
        > This would inform people of how many packets are
        > being heard versus
        > the number that get digipeated. It's quite possible
        > to have 30 packets
        > heard per minute, but only 10 of those digipeated
        > because the other 20
        > had used up paths. To users in the valley below, the
        > channel load
        > appears to only be 33% of what the digipeater is
        > hearing.
        I LOVE this idea! I have been hoping for somthing
        similar myself. You're right, what the digi hears and
        what we GET TO hear is two totally different things.
        It would be nice to know exactly what that ratio is.

        > BTW Scott, I'll be at Dayton, and I have a whole
        > sack full of whacky
        > ideas I want to throw at you including multiple
        > outgoing path
        > settings, and geodigipeating.

        After all of the emails you and I have passed back and
        fourth in the last month, I am convinced we need to
        just set a chair aside, just for you in our booth.
        You'll be there the whole weekend ;o)

        Joking with love 73's
        Jason KE4NYV
        RPC Electronics
        www.rpc-electronics.com
      • James Ewen
        ... Uh... ummm... errr... That s a MANLY kinda love, right? Not that there s anything wrong with the other kind/being
        Message 3 of 7 , May 4, 2007
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          On 5/4/07, Jason Rausch <lists@...> wrote:

          > Joking with love 73's

          Uh... ummm... errr... That's a MANLY kinda love, right?
          <insert lots of Tool Time grunting here>

          Not that there's anything wrong with the other kind/being politically
          correct 73's

          James
          VE6SRV
        • James Ewen
          ... Oh, yeah I forgot to reply to your comment! I wouldn t mind doing that, but I hear that there are going to be at least 2 or 3 other people attending the
          Message 4 of 7 , May 4, 2007
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            On 5/4/07, Jason Rausch <lists@...> wrote:

            > After all of the emails you and I have passed back and
            > fourth in the last month, I am convinced we need to
            > just set a chair aside, just for you in our booth.
            > You'll be there the whole weekend ;o)

            Oh, yeah I forgot to reply to your comment!

            I wouldn't mind doing that, but I hear that there are going to be at
            least 2 or 3 other people attending the Hamvention wandering around
            that would probably want to chat to you guys in your booth. I'm sure
            we could curtain off the booths and sit and have a nice chat session
            for the weekend, but it gets expensive sitting in those private
            cubicles.

            Last time I was there I just about lost my voice talking to all those
            silly people on the outside of my booth. I am going to buy some throat
            lozenges this time. I should send my wife, she can babble all day
            without taking a breath! I'm used to sitting, nodding, and admitting
            that it's all my fault!

            I do hope that we can get together for a little time to discuss APRS
            for a while!

            James
            VE6SRV
          • Keri Morgret
            Is THIS what I paid good money to go to Dayton for? Scott didn t tell me about this type of love at the booth.. Keri N6TME
            Message 5 of 7 , May 4, 2007
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              Is THIS what I paid good money to go to Dayton for? Scott didn't tell
              me about this type of love at the booth..

              Keri
              N6TME

              At 09:48 PM 5/4/2007, James Ewen wrote:
              >On 5/4/07, Jason Rausch <lists@...> wrote:
              >
              > > Joking with love 73's
              >
              >Uh... ummm... errr... That's a MANLY kinda love, right?
              ><insert lots of Tool Time grunting here>
              >
              >Not that there's anything wrong with the other kind/being politically
              >correct 73's
              >
              >James
              >VE6SRV
            • 'Scott Miller'
              It could certainly be done. It already keeps a total count of digi d packets. It d take a little more work to make it a 10-minute count, and to have it
              Message 6 of 7 , May 8, 2007
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                It could certainly be done.  It already keeps a total count of digi'd packets. It'd take a little more work to make it a 10-minute count, and to have it announce the load automatically.
                 
                Scott


                From: tracker2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:tracker2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Ewen
                Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 8:01 PM
                To: tracker2@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [tracker2] New feature for the OT2

                I just answered a recurring question for the umpteenth time on the
                NWAPRS reflector... How come I see delayed packets.

                My theory that I am sticking with is channel overloading. I run
                UI-Traffic on my home station with UI-View. It allows me to graph the
                traffic that I see at my station. It also sends out an object beacon
                every 10 minutes with the latest channel loading, like this:

                VE6SRV-1>APU25N, TCPIP*,qAC, T2MONTANA: ;SRV
                *040259z5331. 31N\11317. 42W?28 In 10 Minutes

                I keep trying to convice people that even if it is quiet in the
                valley, the channel may be overloaded up at the digipeater. Packets
                that have the hops all used up still get heard at the digipeater, they
                just don't get acted upon. They still use up local air time.

                So I was thinking, maybe I could put a computer up at the digipeater,
                and have the OT2 send the packets to the computer which would be able
                to graph the activity. But then I thought, most people wouldn't want
                to have a computer at the digi, nor would they have internet access
                there. Hmm, what about having the digipeater keep track of the number
                of packets heard, and report that the same as UI-Traffic does. Even
                beyond that it could report packets heard, and packets digipeated.
                This would inform people of how many packets are being heard versus
                the number that get digipeated. It's quite possible to have 30 packets
                heard per minute, but only 10 of those digipeated because the other 20
                had used up paths. To users in the valley below, the channel load
                appears to only be 33% of what the digipeater is hearing.

                This would be a useful tool to teach people that putting digipeaters
                on the absolute highest point around is not such a good thing in high
                use areas. Highly congested areas need to pull the high digis down and
                create more smaller coverage area digis to allow for the higher user
                density.

                To implement something like this would only take a couple variables,
                one to keep a 10 minute timer, one to keep track of the number of
                packets heard, and a final one to keep track of the number of packets
                digipeated. You'd also need a command line switch to enable/disable
                sending the report out. Obviously some people would not want the
                report, and some would. The reporting could be turned on occasionally
                to assess traffic loading, and turned off again later.

                The report could be something along the lines of
                SRV *040259z5331. 31N\11317. 42W?34 of 56 in 10 minutes

                BTW Scott, I'll be at Dayton, and I have a whole sack full of whacky
                ideas I want to throw at you including multiple outgoing path
                settings, and geodigipeating.

                James
                VE6SRV

              • James Ewen
                ... I agree that keeping track of the total number of packets versus number of packets in the last 10 minutes is a bit more of a challenge. The annoucement
                Message 7 of 7 , May 8, 2007
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                  On 5/8/07, Scott Miller <scott@...> wrote:

                  > It could certainly be done. It already keeps a total count of digi'd packets.
                  > It'd take a little more work to make it a 10-minute count, and to have it
                  > announce the load automatically.

                  I agree that keeping track of the total number of packets versus
                  number of packets in the last 10 minutes is a bit more of a challenge.
                  The annoucement portion is similar to a status beacon, you just grab
                  the appropriate values out of the variables and stuff them into the
                  string.

                  Another concept that I would like to see in the OT is the concept of
                  multiple outgoing paths. This allows us to send position reports
                  varying distances. Bob uses a concept that I developed a few years ago
                  and showed him. He tossed it aside, but now he has reintroduced the
                  concept, and calls it proportional pathing.

                  In the APRS world, local objects are of more importance than distant
                  objects. Things that are happening closer to us are of more interest
                  than things happening far away. Also, things that are happening
                  currently are of more importance than things that happened in the
                  past. To implement these concepts we want to set up our trackers to
                  report current information to those close to us at a reasonably rapid
                  rate, while keeping those further away updated at a slower rate. We
                  also want to update changing information as soon as it happens, but
                  report static information at a slower rate.

                  By using multiple length paths, you can send more packets out to those
                  close by, while still sending packets out a couple hops as well. We
                  use this concept with the 4 LTP settings in the Kantronics line to
                  send packets out locally every 10 minutes, out a little further every
                  30 minutes, and the longest distance packets every hour.

                  In Byon's TinyTrak, you can make this happen using the alternate digi
                  paths option. If you set one path to WIDE2-1, and the second to
                  WIDE2-2, you can keep people nearby updated in a timely fashion, but
                  effectively decrease the load you are creating on neighboring
                  digipeaters by 1/2. Having 3 or 4 alternate digi paths can allow even
                  better optimization of your channel load. With 4 paths, I can set up
                  paths such as: local, WIDE2-1, local, WIDE2-2 (where local is no
                  path). If I beacon every 60 seconds, those within simplex range see me
                  every minute. Those within one hop see me every 2 minutes, and those
                  within 2 hops see me every 4 minutes. This also works with
                  SmartBeaconing (tm), just the timing is obviously different. Also,
                  with 4 digi paths we can set up the OT2 in digipeater mode with a
                  proportional pathing solution like the KPC-3 settings Bob suggests.

                  You'll find that people are interested in letting others know where
                  they are by beaconing quite often. They also want to tell people for
                  miles around where they are. Lots of beacons going out over a long
                  path causes network congestion. Alternate digi paths allow people to
                  beacon at a rapid rate, and also get their position reports out over a
                  long path. Close in the rate is rapid, but the further you go away,
                  the slower the effective beacon rate. This type of operation keeps
                  everyone happy.

                  I told you I had some ideas I wanted to toss at you. There's still more!

                  James
                  VE6SRV
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