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car navigation systems questions

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  • k7cdl
    ok i have looked all over internet last night with no luck. maybe someone can help me. thinking of buying a new radio system for my pickup truck. i been doing
    Message 1 of 13 , Dec 31, 2013
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      ok i have looked all over internet last night with no luck. maybe someone can help me. thinking of buying a new radio system for my pickup truck. i been doing lots of research last night. very surprised they dont have a way to use normal car navigation systems and post aprs stations on that system then using muti gps units to do one job. you would think someone would think of a system that you can post all station data from the Argent Data tracker systems. all the GPS system with the car would need is a NMEA or Garmin data input.



      K7CDL
      Rondall Swart
    • Jason KG4WSV
      ... Modern gadgets are designed to extract the maximum amount of $ from the maximum number of people. That extra 27 cents a unit to add an rs232 port and the
      Message 2 of 13 , Dec 31, 2013
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        > On Dec 31, 2013, at 7:47 AM, <k7cdl@...> wrote:
        >
        > very surprised they dont have a way to use normal car navigation systems and post aprs stations on that system then using muti gps units to do one job.

        Modern gadgets are designed to extract the maximum amount of $ from the maximum number of people. That extra 27 cents a unit to add an rs232 port and the development cost of including it into the design cuts into profit, and corporate greed says that's not worth it when only a few dozen out of tens or hundreds of thousands of users would ever use it. From a consumer electronics standpoint, APRS users do not exist - there are too few of us. The majority of consumer GPS users are appliance operators that can get confused about where to plug in the power cable.

        > you would think someone would think of a system that you can post all station data from the Argent Data tracker systems.

        Scott spent what appeared to me to be a serious amount of effort in interfacing to the garmin binary protocol, but garmin does a poor job of documenting and the implementation is extremely varied among units, so the net result is that it pretty much works on one model that's now discontinued.

        If you're developing a fleet management system with thousands of vehicles you've got the resources to pay garmin to get the information and support, but hams are too cheap/broke to get that. Scott may be able to pay garmin to get support and provide what we all want, but what if he had to triple the price of every tracker as a result?

        We all feel your pain, but it's just a sad fact of life for APRS users. In spite of past experience, I recently went on a search for a GPS that was adequate for APRS, road nav, and woods nav. It doesn't really exist. The garmin Montana came closest, but at >$750 (GPS, maps, cables, mount, etc) it just wasn't worth it for me. At this point I'm hoping the open source crowd can come up with a decent GPS app that can navigate and run on a small ARM (eg beaglebone).

        -Jason
        kg4wsv
      • Rondall Swart
        Guess I m staying with Garmin 350 lol Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
        Message 3 of 13 , Dec 31, 2013
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          Guess I'm staying with Garmin 350 lol

          Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android



          From: Jason KG4WSV <kg4wsv@...>;
          To: tracker2@yahoogroups.com <tracker2@yahoogroups.com>;
          Subject: Re: [tracker2] car navigation systems questions
          Sent: Tue, Dec 31, 2013 2:55:34 PM

           


          > On Dec 31, 2013, at 7:47 AM, <k7cdl@...> wrote:
          >
          > very surprised they dont have a way to use normal car navigation systems and post aprs stations on that system then using muti gps units to do one job.

          Modern gadgets are designed to extract the maximum amount of $ from the maximum number of people. That extra 27 cents a unit to add an rs232 port and the development cost of including it into the design cuts into profit, and corporate greed says that's not worth it when only a few dozen out of tens or hundreds of thousands of users would ever use it. From a consumer electronics standpoint, APRS users do not exist - there are too few of us. The majority of consumer GPS users are appliance operators that can get confused about where to plug in the power cable.

          > you would think someone would think of a system that you can post all station data from the Argent Data tracker systems.

          Scott spent what appeared to me to be a serious amount of effort in interfacing to the garmin binary protocol, but garmin does a poor job of documenting and the implementation is extremely varied among units, so the net result is that it pretty much works on one model that's now discontinued.

          If you're developing a fleet management system with thousands of vehicles you've got the resources to pay garmin to get the information and support, but hams are too cheap/broke to get that. Scott may be able to pay garmin to get support and provide what we all want, but what if he had to triple the price of every tracker as a result?

          We all feel your pain, but it's just a sad fact of life for APRS users. In spite of past experience, I recently went on a search for a GPS that was adequate for APRS, road nav, and woods nav. It doesn't really exist. The garmin Montana came closest, but at >$750 (GPS, maps, cables, mount, etc) it just wasn't worth it for me. At this point I'm hoping the open source crowd can come up with a decent GPS app that can navigate and run on a small ARM (eg beaglebone).

          -Jason
          kg4wsv

        • James Ewen
          ... What do you need this APP to do? The AvMap G6 does full APRS icon support, can display APRS weather, and bi-directional APRS messaging. AvMap have gone out
          Message 4 of 13 , Jan 2, 2014
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            On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 7:55 AM, Jason KG4WSV <kg4wsv@...> wrote:

            > At this point I'm hoping the open source crowd can come up with a decent
            > GPS app that can navigate and run on a small ARM (eg beaglebone).

            What do you need this APP to do?

            The AvMap G6 does full APRS icon support, can display APRS weather,
            and bi-directional APRS messaging. AvMap have gone out of their way to
            support a very small niche market with specialized firmware for their
            GPS navigators. The main player in the APRS radio market (Kenwood) has
            yet to include support for these features. It has been left to the
            small specialty manufacturers to fill the void. Players like Scott
            (Argent Data Systems), and Byon (Byonics) have filled the void by
            producing products that support the sentences needed to communicate
            with the APRS aware GPS Navigator.

            We have specialty APRS tracker manufacturers and specialty GPS
            Navigator manufacturers working to produce and deliver custom devices
            that fill extremely small niche markets, and we still complain and
            wish for some vapourware, or hope that some car manufacturer is going
            to build a factory equipped APRS ready vehicle.

            Yes, we can always dream, and yes, it would be nice if the built-in
            navigation systems in current vehicles were open source, with a fully
            documented API that would allow us to interface our custom designed
            open source radio to it...

            We can always dream.

            In the mean time, we need to support those who are already working
            hard to produce the toys that we have available today. I know Scott is
            doing his best to keep my wallet empty!

            As for the original subject of this thread, Rondall made a bunch of
            statements, but not a single query, so there's not much to respond to.

            --
            James
            VE6SRV
          • rondall swart
            well said James. and thanks that’s my plan is to look into Avmap. and yes Scott does know how to keep poor people buying his stuff lol From: James Ewen Sent:
            Message 5 of 13 , Jan 2, 2014
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              well said James. and thanks that’s my plan is to look into Avmap. and yes Scott does know how to keep poor people buying his stuff lol
               
              Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2014 2:16 PM
              Subject: Re: [tracker2] car navigation systems questions
               
               

              On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 7:55 AM, Jason KG4WSV <kg4wsv@...> wrote:

              > At this point I'm hoping the open source crowd can come up
              with a decent
              > GPS app that can navigate and run on a small ARM (eg
              beaglebone).

              What do you need this APP to do?

              The AvMap G6 does full APRS icon support, can display APRS weather,
              and bi-directional APRS messaging. AvMap have gone out of their way to
              support a very small niche market with specialized firmware for their
              GPS navigators. The main player in the APRS radio market (Kenwood) has
              yet to include support for these features. It has been left to the
              small specialty manufacturers to fill the void. Players like Scott
              (Argent Data Systems), and Byon (Byonics) have filled the void by
              producing products that support the sentences needed to communicate
              with the APRS aware GPS Navigator.

              We have specialty APRS tracker manufacturers and specialty GPS
              Navigator manufacturers working to produce and deliver custom devices
              that fill extremely small niche markets, and we still complain and
              wish for some vapourware, or hope that some car manufacturer is going
              to build a factory equipped APRS ready vehicle.

              Yes, we can always dream, and yes, it would be nice if the built-in
              navigation systems in current vehicles were open source, with a fully
              documented API that would allow us to interface our custom designed
              open source radio to it...

              We can always dream.

              In the mean time, we need to support those who are already working
              hard to produce the toys that we have available today. I know Scott is
              doing his best to keep my wallet empty!

              As for the original subject of this thread, Rondall made a bunch of
              statements, but not a single query, so there's not much to respond to.

              --
              James
              VE6SRV

            • Jason KG4WSV
              ... I considered an earlier generation Avmap. Looking at http://www.avmapnavigation.com/products/terr/geosat_6_aprs-664/introduction-en-us US$400 gets you the
              Message 6 of 13 , Jan 2, 2014
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                On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 3:16 PM, James Ewen <ve6srv@...> wrote:
                >
                > The AvMap G6 does full APRS icon support, can display APRS weather,
                > and bi-directional APRS messaging.


                I considered an earlier generation Avmap. Looking at http://www.avmapnavigation.com/products/terr/geosat_6_aprs-664/introduction-en-us  US$400 gets you the latest generation with


                480 x 272 pixels

                Arm9 300Mhz

                Windows CE

                Sorry, but that was outdated 5 years ago. I can't spend $400 on obsolete hardware.

                And map updates are US$109 list.



                -Jason
                kg4wsv
              • Jason KG4WSV
                ... Basic GPS stuff like road navigation, with an NMEA over RS232 interface for waypoints, WITHOUT a freakin cell phone connection. That eliminates most of
                Message 7 of 13 , Jan 2, 2014
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                  On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 3:16 PM, James Ewen <ve6srv@...> wrote:
                  What do you need this APP to do?

                  Basic GPS stuff like road navigation, with an NMEA over RS232 interface for waypoints, WITHOUT a freakin' cell phone connection. That eliminates most of the market.

                  I looked at open source GPS nav a few years ago; nothing was close.  Maybe it's time to look again, but I've got other projects going at the moment.

                  -Jason
                  kg4wsv
                • k7cdl
                  Jason i was thinking ham radio was a never ending project lol
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jan 2, 2014
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                    Jason i was thinking ham radio was a never ending project lol

                  • James Ewen
                    ... And that is why you get NOTHING instead. Hopefully you don t own any radios... they haven t really changed much in abut 30 years. If a new version came out
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jan 2, 2014
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                      On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 2:34 PM, Jason KG4WSV <kg4wsv@...> wrote:

                      > I considered an earlier generation Avmap. Looking at http://www.avmapnavigation
                      >.com/products/terr/geosat_6_aprs-664/introduction-en-us US$400 gets you the
                      > latest generation with
                      >
                      > …
                      > 480 x 272 pixels
                      > …
                      > Arm9 300Mhz
                      > …
                      > Windows CE
                      >
                      > Sorry, but that was outdated 5 years ago. I can't spend $400 on obsolete hardware.

                      And that is why you get NOTHING instead. Hopefully you don't own any
                      radios... they haven't really changed much in abut 30 years. If a new
                      version came out every month and cost you $50, would you buy it then?
                      Oh yeah, you'll need a new radio every month too, one that has the
                      latest and greatest feature set to match the GPS.

                      Sometimes a new version every couple of months isn't a good thing.
                      Scott doesn't have the money and resources available to buy every new
                      Garmin GPS that drops onto the market and test to see if Garmin has
                      gotten their FMI figured out yet. Even if Garmin got it right in one
                      model, and Scott updated the T3 to work properly, what happens when
                      Garmin screws up the FMI again?

                      > And map updates are US$109 list.

                      Okay, I have to agree with that... AvMap is not a massive data
                      consumer like Garmin, Tomtom, Magellan and the others. They get hosed
                      on the cost of the map updates, and pass that along to the consumer.

                      I would like to see free lifetime map updates. I think Garmin gets
                      around that because they issue a new model every few months, and by
                      the time your unit is a year old, it's obsolete, and "end-of-life"
                      status.

                      --
                      James
                      VE6SRV
                    • Jason KG4WSV
                      ... You re missing the point on this one, James. I can t tolerate buying a new piece of hardware that s hopelessly out of date precisely _because_ I ll have
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jan 2, 2014
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                        On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 3:56 PM, James Ewen <ve6srv@...> wrote:
                        And that is why you get NOTHING instead. Hopefully you don't own any
                        radios... they haven't really changed much in abut 30 years. If a new
                        version came out every month and cost you $50, would you buy it then?
                        Oh yeah, you'll need a new radio every month too, one that has the
                        latest and greatest feature set to match the GPS.

                        You're missing the point on this one, James.  I can't tolerate buying a "new" piece of hardware that's hopelessly out of date precisely _because_ I'll have it for 5 or 10 years before I replace it.

                        My ~10 year old D700 and D7 radios are still going strong; they could use a software refresh, but they're still working just fine.  As you point out, there's no real difference in the radio technology D700 vs. D710.  The display isn't even significantly different.  (I actually think the D7 is superior to the D72 because it has real RS232 ports, but I guess I'm a dinosaur.)

                        The computing related stuff, however, has grown by leaps and bounds in terms of screen size, resolution, processing power, and storage, and the price is generally _falling_.  That's what makes a $400 300MHz Windows CE GPS with the screen resolution of a Happy Meal toy a non-starter for me.  I get high resolution maps with very decent navigation for free* with my cell phone.  You'd better have a GPS product at least that good if you're gonna ask me to lay down 4 Benjamins for it.   ( * yes, it's "free" to me, because I got the smartphone for a phone/messaging device/personal organizer, not a navigation device.)

                        I've got a Garmin Map60 that works fine, except I got it without road maps.  Now that it's 8 or 10 years old I can't seem to be able to get map updates at any price.  I can get a new GPS, but if I do happen to find one that has a real RS232 port with NMEA it has other serious drawbacks (e.g. using the USB connector for RS232 on the new Garmins).

                        And yes, Scott has enough cool stuff to absorb any spare cash I have lying around. :)

                        As for the auto manufacturers, they're insane.  A friend recently told me that the map updates for the GPS built in to his vehicle was $600 (yes six HUNDRED dollars for a disc with updated maps).  I have no hope at all for them, unless it's for them to use an android device on the console that someone can jailbreak.  :)


                        I'd gladly pay $600 for the garmin if it had a decently documented protocol (FMI and ANT), and especially if it had RS232 on a decently reliable connector.

                        -Jason
                        kg4wsv

                      • James Ewen
                        ... I ve had mine since early 2011... it wasn t hopelessly out of date then. AvMap *still* is the *ONLY* GPS line that supports APRS, and the G6 is the latest
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jan 2, 2014
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                          On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 3:29 PM, Jason KG4WSV <kg4wsv@...> wrote:

                          > You're missing the point on this one, James. I can't tolerate buying a
                          > "new" piece of hardware that's hopelessly out of date precisely _because_
                          > I'll have it for 5 or 10 years before I replace it.

                          I've had mine since early 2011... it wasn't hopelessly out of date
                          then. AvMap *still* is the *ONLY* GPS line that supports APRS, and the
                          G6 is the latest and greatest in that line.

                          If you're going to hang onto gear for 5 to 10 years (I do as well),
                          and you don't want hardware that is hopelessly out of date, you need
                          to purchase the latest and greatest bit of gear as soon as it is
                          released. Actually, you'd need to buy that bit of gear a year or two
                          before it is released, because by the time any manufacturer gets
                          spooled up for production, something brighter and shinier will have
                          come along.

                          Do you have a flat screen TV? Is it the latest Samsung 110"
                          flatscreen? http://www.engadget.com/2013/12/29/samsung-110-inch-uhd-tv/

                          If not, I guess you'll have to throw out whatever you have because
                          it's hopelessly out of date.

                          > My ~10 year old D700 and D7 radios are still going strong; they could use
                          > a software refresh, but they're still working just fine. As you point out, there's
                          > no real difference in the radio technology D700 vs. D710.

                          Umm, I was pointing out that there's no real difference in the radio
                          technology in a TK-7800 versus a TM-D710G... The radio hardware is
                          basically the same, synthesized PLL, not crystals... sure there are
                          more memories, and they took the old TNC that used to be hooked up
                          externally and popped it inside the case, and added a bit of memory an
                          user interface. You can talk between the TK-7800 and TM-D710G and not
                          have a clue which is which.

                          > (I actually think the D7 is superior to the D72 because it has
                          > real RS232 ports, but I guess I'm a dinosaur.)

                          Nope, you just understand the true value (and simplicity) of a real serial port.

                          But on the other hand, you should be complaining because your new
                          laptop that you bought last night doesn't have real serial ports, and
                          the replacement laptop you have to buy tomorrow to keep up to date
                          doesn't have them either.

                          > The computing related stuff, however, has grown by leaps and bounds in
                          > terms of screen size, resolution, processing power, and storage, and
                          > the price is generally _falling_. That's what makes a $400 300MHz
                          > Windows CE GPS with the screen resolution of a Happy Meal toy a
                          > non-starter for me. I get high resolution maps with very decent navigation
                          > for free* with my cell phone. You'd better have a GPS product at least
                          > that good if you're gonna ask me to lay down 4 Benjamins for it. ( * yes,
                          > it's "free" to me, because I got the smartphone for a phone/messaging
                          > device/personal organizer, not a navigation device.)

                          Get your smartphone manufacturer to put a real serial port on your
                          phone, have them write an open source APRS application for it, make
                          the screen user upgradeable to virtually any new screen
                          size/resolution ever to be invented, plus microprocessor and memory
                          upgrades by the end user, and you might have something close to what
                          you are looking for. Oh yeah, have the manufacturer pay people to use
                          it. I'd be happy with them paying me $100 a month to use their device.


                          > I've got a Garmin Map60 that works fine, except I got it without road maps.
                          > Now that it's 8 or 10 years old I can't seem to be able to get map updates
                          > at any price. I can get a new GPS, but if I do happen to find one that has a
                          > real RS232 port with NMEA it has other serious drawbacks (e.g. using the
                          > USB connector for RS232 on the new Garmins).

                          The AvMap G6 has a REAL serial port on it.


                          > I'd gladly pay $600 for the garmin if it had a decently documented
                          > protocol (FMI and ANT), and especially if it had RS232 on a decently
                          > reliable connector.

                          But you won't pay $400 for an AvMap that has a decently documented
                          protocol (APRS plus extensions), and it has RS232 on a decently
                          reliable connector.

                          So there's no keeping you happy. :)

                          I know where you're coming from. I'd love to have everything that you
                          ask for as well. However, if everyone sits on their wallets waiting
                          while manufacturers build version after version of equipment, not
                          selling any, how long do you think the manufacturers will be around?

                          Support the manufacturers that build the devices that closest approach
                          your perfect device. The manufacturer will see the demand, and work on
                          making a better device to entice other purchasers with, and perhaps
                          get you to upgrade. We've asked for and gotten many advanced features
                          added to the G6 over the years.

                          AvMap started with the G4, replaced that with the G5, and then again
                          replaced that with the G6. If they see enough demand for the G6 APRS
                          version, they will most likely produce yet another in the line. If
                          people don't buy the G6 APRS, AvMap will drop the line and focus on
                          the 4X4, Farm Navigator, GPS/Cellphone/DTV/Breathalyzer, and aviation
                          lines instead.

                          --
                          James
                          VE6SRV
                        • Jason KG4WSV
                          ... Nope. :) ... I had to check. Folks, he wasn t kidding, breathalyzer... -Jason kg4wsv
                          Message 12 of 13 , Jan 2, 2014
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                            On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 6:12 PM, James Ewen <ve6srv@...> wrote:
                            So there's no keeping you happy. :)

                            Nope. :)
                             
                            the 4X4, Farm Navigator, GPS/Cellphone/DTV/Breathalyzer,

                            I had to check.  Folks, he wasn't kidding, breathalyzer...


                            -Jason
                            kg4wsv
                          • Tony VE6MVP
                            ... With products like APRSDroid and such that s just about there on the Android platform. OSM maps are also open source. I plan on mounting my 10
                            Message 13 of 13 , Jan 11, 2014
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                              At 07:55 AM 2013-12-31, Jason KG4WSV wrote:
                               At this point I'm hoping the open source crowd can come up with a decent GPS app that can navigate and run on a small ARM (eg beaglebone).

                              With products like APRSDroid and such that's just about there on the Android platform.  OSM maps are also open source.     I plan on mounting my 10" Android tablet in my vehicle.

                              What I want to see is more Bluetooth devices on the radios themselves such as the D710 next generation.  Or for plug and play Bluetooth devices that plug into existing ports on the D710 without requiring a 4' cable and "bulky" DB9 connectors.

                              Tony
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