Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

T-2 audio level ?

Expand Messages
  • w5kro@ymail.com
    I used to use my t2 as a mobile tracker, (worked fine)however I later replaced the t2 with a t2-135 and sent the t-2 to be used as a digipeater. Now at home I
    Message 1 of 9 , Sep 18, 2013
    • 0 Attachment

      I used to use my t2 as a mobile tracker, (worked fine)however I later replaced the t2 with a t2-135 and sent the t-2 to be used as a digipeater. Now at home I use a motorola radio and software as a aprs station weather station and IGATE. The T-2 is at a remote location where it is attached to another motorola mobile radio and 100 feet of 7/8 inch feed line to a db224 at 100 ft. At home I receive about 800 local position reports a day on my 20 ft high antenna the digi 4.7 miles away receives about 30 position reports a day. The info can be seen by looking at w5kro home digi and KC5HMI-5 remote digi. It seems to me the digi with a very good antenna at 100 ft should be receiving at least as many position reports as my small home setup. As of 9/17/2013 W5KRO has directly heard 8510 signals, the digi has heard directly 524.

      I have changed the radio between home and digi it makes no difference. I have checked the Antenna and feedline with vna and antenna analyzers. I see no specs on what level the t-2 needs to decode properly any help wil be appreciated. 

    • ve6srv
      The first order of business is to find out how you are determining what the digipeater is hearing. The ONLY way to know what the digipeater is hearing is to
      Message 2 of 9 , Sep 18, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        The first order of business is to find out how you are determining what the digipeater is hearing.

        The ONLY way to know what the digipeater is hearing is to plug into the digipeater and watch the packets scroll by on the terminal program.

        If you listen on RF at a location where you have an excellent chance of hearing all packets handled by the digipeater, you can determine fairly accurately the packets that are successfully decoded by the digipeater and are requesting a digipeat using an alias supported by the digipeater.

        If you look at an online site such as aprs.fi, findu.com, or similar, then you will only see a subset of the packets handled by the digipeater.

        The APRS-IS is configured to drop all but the first copy of the packet heard and forwarded to the IS stream.

        If your home station acting as an i-gate and it hears a packet at the same time as the digipeater hears it, you will only see the packet being gated through your i-gate on the APRS-IS stream. The copy which would show the packet being handled by the digipeater would be dropped by all i-gates as a previous version of the packet has already been seen on the IS stream.

        Any copies of the packet handled by any other combination of digipeaters, or trying to be forwarded to the APRS-IS stream would all be dropped.

        You CANNOT do any true analysis of APRS network health based on the heavily filtered APRS-IS feed. You MUST at the very least listen on RF to get an idea of what is happening on the local RF channel.

        James
        VE6SRV
        Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network

        From: <w5kro@...>
        Sender: tracker2@yahoogroups.com
        Date: 18 Sep 2013 07:09:06 -0700
        To: <tracker2@yahoogroups.com>
        ReplyTo: tracker2@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [tracker2] T-2 audio level ?

        I used to use my t2 as a mobile tracker, (worked fine)however I later replaced the t2 with a t2-135 and sent the t-2 to be used as a digipeater. Now at home I use a motorola radio and software as a aprs station weather station and IGATE. The T-2 is at a remote location where it is attached to another motorola mobile radio and 100 feet of 7/8 inch feed line to a db224 at 100 ft. At home I receive about 800 local position reports a day on my 20 ft high antenna the digi 4.7 miles away receives about 30 position reports a day. The info can be seen by looking at w5kro home digi and KC5HMI-5 remote digi. It seems to me the digi with a very good antenna at 100 ft should be receiving at least as many position reports as my small home setup. As of 9/17/2013 W5KRO has directly heard 8510 signals, the digi has heard directly 524.

        I have changed the radio between home and digi it makes no difference. I have checked the Antenna and feedline with vna and antenna analyzers. I see no specs on what level the t-2 needs to decode properly any help wil be appreciated. 

      • w5kro@ymail.com
        I can and will look at the packets as they scroll by and try to determine what packets are being decoded. The reason I started looking at this digi is that in
        Message 3 of 9 , Sep 18, 2013
        • 0 Attachment

          I can and will look at the packets as they scroll by and try  to determine what packets are being decoded. The reason I started looking at this digi is that in the other parts of city tracking works pretty well but up north where we need a fill in digi I can normally only se my travels for a few miles past this digi. It seems to have very limited coverage area it is the main digi north of my location. As I explained I have checked receiver sensitivity antenna &  feedline and replaced the radio but still only a few miles of coverage will be reported. So I am wondering what level of audio the t-2 wants.  I am using the aufio out of the microphone jack to feed the T-2.   



          --- In tracker2@yahoogroups.com, <tracker2@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

          The first order of business is to find out how you are determining what the digipeater is hearing.

          The ONLY way to know what the digipeater is hearing is to plug into the digipeater and watch the packets scroll by on the terminal program.

          If you listen on RF at a location where you have an excellent chance of hearing all packets handled by the digipeater, you can determine fairly accurately the packets that are successfully decoded by the digipeater and are requesting a digipeat using an alias supported by the digipeater.

          If you look at an online site such as aprs.fi, findu.com, or similar, then you will only see a subset of the packets handled by the digipeater.

          The APRS-IS is configured to drop all but the first copy of the packet heard and forwarded to the IS stream.

          If your home station acting as an i-gate and it hears a packet at the same time as the digipeater hears it, you will only see the packet being gated through your i-gate on the APRS-IS stream. The copy which would show the packet being handled by the digipeater would be dropped by all i-gates as a previous version of the packet has already been seen on the IS stream.

          Any copies of the packet handled by any other combination of digipeaters, or trying to be forwarded to the APRS-IS stream would all be dropped.

          You CANNOT do any true analysis of APRS network health based on the heavily filtered APRS-IS feed. You MUST at the very least listen on RF to get an idea of what is happening on the local RF channel.

          James
          VE6SRV
          Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network

          From: <w5kro@...>
          Sender: tracker2@yahoogroups.com
          Date: 18 Sep 2013 07:09:06 -0700
          To: <tracker2@yahoogroups.com>
          ReplyTo: tracker2@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [tracker2] T-2 audio level ?

          I used to use my t2 as a mobile tracker, (worked fine)however I later replaced the t2 with a t2-135 and sent the t-2 to be used as a digipeater. Now at home I use a motorola radio and software as a aprs station weather station and IGATE. The T-2 is at a remote location where it is attached to another motorola mobile radio and 100 feet of 7/8 inch feed line to a db224 at 100 ft. At home I receive about 800 local position reports a day on my 20 ft high antenna the digi 4.7 miles away receives about 30 position reports a day. The info can be seen by looking at w5kro home digi and KC5HMI-5 remote digi. It seems to me the digi with a very good antenna at 100 ft should be receiving at least as many position reports as my small home setup. As of 9/17/2013 W5KRO has directly heard 8510 signals, the digi has heard directly 524.

          I have changed the radio between home and digi it makes no difference. I have checked the Antenna and feedline with vna and antenna analyzers. I see no specs on what level the t-2 needs to decode properly any help wil be appreciated. 

        • w5kro@ymail.com
          we6srv I sat at the tower site and listened to rf on a separate receiver while watching the decoded packets on my laptop hooked to the T-2 . While I saw more
          Message 4 of 9 , Sep 18, 2013
          • 0 Attachment

             we6srv I sat at the tower site and listened to rf on a separate receiver while watching the decoded packets on my laptop hooked to the T-2 . While I saw more decoded packets than I expected  I saw fewer packets digied. In fact while I was sitting there several times my mobile sent out a position packet and it was digied from a site far away, not the tower I was sitting at. Also I checked how many times the tower site heard a signal from another digi in one case the tower site heard 1 packet this month from kd5qzd-7 while my home heard 90. The tower site is 4  miles further away from kd5qzd-7 but I find it hard to believe that my antenna 10 feet off the ground is hearing 90 packets from 64 miles away while the big antenna at 100 ft has heard 1 packet. at 68 miles from kd5qzd-7.  Again thanks for all your help I greatly appreciate it.



            --- In tracker2@yahoogroups.com, <w5kro@...> wrote:

            I used to use my t2 as a mobile tracker, (worked fine)however I later replaced the t2 with a t2-135 and sent the t-2 to be used as a digipeater. Now at home I use a motorola radio and software as a aprs station weather station and IGATE. The T-2 is at a remote location where it is attached to another motorola mobile radio and 100 feet of 7/8 inch feed line to a db224 at 100 ft. At home I receive about 800 local position reports a day on my 20 ft high antenna the digi 4.7 miles away receives about 30 position reports a day. The info can be seen by looking at w5kro home digi and KC5HMI-5 remote digi. It seems to me the digi with a very good antenna at 100 ft should be receiving at least as many position reports as my small home setup. As of 9/17/2013 W5KRO has directly heard 8510 signals, the digi has heard directly 524.

            I have changed the radio between home and digi it makes no difference. I have checked the Antenna and feedline with vna and antenna analyzers. I see no specs on what level the t-2 needs to decode properly any help wil be appreciated. 

          • James Ewen
            ... Okay, that will let you know what is being heard by the T2... ... Okay, did you capture the data and look to see *why* the packets weren t digipeated? Only
            Message 5 of 9 , Sep 18, 2013
            • 0 Attachment
              On Wed, Sep 18, 2013 at 7:54 PM, <w5kro@...> wrote:

              > we6srv I sat at the tower site and listened to rf on a separate receiver
              > while watching the decoded packets on my laptop hooked to the T-2 .

              Okay, that will let you know what is being heard by the T2...

              > While I saw more decoded packets than I expected I saw fewer packets digied.

              Okay, did you capture the data and look to see *why* the packets
              weren't digipeated? Only packets asking for a digipeat will be
              digipeated, and *only* if the to-be-digipeated alias is supported by
              the digipeater.

              > In fact while I was sitting there several times my mobile sent out a position packet
              > and it was digied from a site far away, not the tower I was sitting at.

              So this could be attributed not being a supported alias, or it could
              be due to not being decoded because of improper RX levels. Did you see
              the packet from your mobile in the RX stream? If you did then the
              alias was not supported. If you did not see it in the RX stream, then
              you may have RX level issues.

              > Also I checked how many times the tower site heard a signal from another digi
              > in one case the tower site heard 1 packet this month from kd5qzd-7 while my
              > home heard 90.

              Okay, so you are capturing packets being heard at the digipeater and
              storing them somehow to be able to query against that data to come up
              with the observation of 1 packet heard over the month. You are not
              looking at aprs.fi and using that to determine what the digipeater is
              hearing because we have already been around that bush, and know that
              you cannot see accurate data via the APRS-IS stream.

              > The tower site is 4 miles further away from kd5qzd-7 but I find it hard to believe
              > that my antenna 10 feet off the ground is hearing 90 packets from 64 miles away
              > while the big antenna at 100 ft has heard 1 packet. at 68 miles from kd5qzd-7.

              It is unlikely that what you are describing is actually happening.
              Please describe how you are gathering your historical data from what
              the digipeater is hearing.

              --
              James
              VE6SRV
            • w5kro@ymail.com
              ... Okay, that will let you know what is being heard by the T2... ... Okay, did you capture the data and look to see *why* the packets weren t digipeated? Only
              Message 6 of 9 , Sep 19, 2013
              • 0 Attachment

                James I have uploaded captured txt. from the site. it is called W5KRO-Tracker if you have a chance please take a look at it and see what you can tell me. Thanks Karo  W5KRO 



                --- In tracker2@yahoogroups.com, <ve6srv@...> wrote:

                On Wed, Sep 18, 2013 at 7:54 PM, <w5kro@...> wrote:

                > we6srv I sat at the tower site and listened to rf on a separate receiver
                > while watching the decoded packets on my laptop hooked to the T-2 .

                Okay, that will let you know what is being heard by the T2...

                > While I saw more decoded packets than I expected I saw fewer packets digied.

                Okay, did you capture the data and look to see *why* the packets
                weren't digipeated? Only packets asking for a digipeat will be
                digipeated, and *only* if the to-be-digipeated alias is supported by
                the digipeater.

                > In fact while I was sitting there several times my mobile sent out a position packet
                > and it was digied from a site far away, not the tower I was sitting at.

                So this could be attributed not being a supported alias, or it could
                be due to not being decoded because of improper RX levels. Did you see
                the packet from your mobile in the RX stream? If you did then the
                alias was not supported. If you did not see it in the RX stream, then
                you may have RX level issues.

                > Also I checked how many times the tower site heard a signal from another digi
                > in one case the tower site heard 1 packet this month from kd5qzd-7 while my
                > home heard 90.

                Okay, so you are capturing packets being heard at the digipeater and
                storing them somehow to be able to query against that data to come up
                with the observation of 1 packet heard over the month. You are not
                looking at aprs.fi and using that to determine what the digipeater is
                hearing because we have already been around that bush, and know that
                you cannot see accurate data via the APRS-IS stream.

                > The tower site is 4 miles further away from kd5qzd-7 but I find it hard to believe
                > that my antenna 10 feet off the ground is hearing 90 packets from 64 miles away
                > while the big antenna at 100 ft has heard 1 packet. at 68 miles from kd5qzd-7.

                It is unlikely that what you are describing is actually happening.
                Please describe how you are gathering your historical data from what
                the digipeater is hearing.

                --
                James
                VE6SRV
              • James Ewen
                So, this capture is done at KC5HMI-5, correct? It looks to be covering about 22 minutes from 11:35 to 11:57. I deleted all the waypoint information from the
                Message 7 of 9 , Sep 19, 2013
                • 0 Attachment

                  So, this capture is done at KC5HMI-5, correct? It looks to be covering about 22 minutes from 11:35 to 11:57.

                  I deleted all the waypoint information from the file. Does the digipeater have a GPS attached? If not, kill the waypoints, and you'll get less noise to look through.

                  We can see that this site has digipeated at least 5 packets, because we can see it's callsign in a packet that has been handled by another digipeater afterwards.

                          Line 3: K5ARC-2>APN390,KC5HMI-5*,W5KRO-2*,WIDE2*:=3006.16NN09054.51W#PHG9490W2, SSn-N, K5ARC Digi Line 8: N5UKZ>APU25N,KC5HMI-5*,W5KRO-2*,WIDE2*:@182337z3023.36N/09101.15W_197/007g016t085r000p000P001h72b10143/{UIV32N} Line 20: W5KRO>APWW10,KC5HMI-5*,WIDE1*,W5KRO-2*,WIDE2*,:/184300h3031.87N/09102.05W_304/001g006t082r000p001P001h70b10144 Line 24: W5KRO>APWW10,KC5HMI-5*,WIDE1*,W5KRO-2*,WIDE2*,:;146.835-R*182345z3046.44N/09121.01WrMissLou RPT 146.835- Tone 114 Line 29: N5UKZ>APU25N,KC5HMI-5*,W5KRO-2*,WIDE2*:@182347z3023.36N/09101.15W_114/006g015t084r000p000P001h73b10143/{UIV32N}

                  This doesn't mean these are the only packets that were digipeated, but because they were handled by another station after this digipeater digipeated them, we see the evidence in the packet.

                  We can also tell what alias is being supported. K5ARC-2 and N5UKZ are using a WIDE2-2 path, and we know this digipeater handled those packets.

                  K5ARC-2>APN390,WIDE2-2
                  N5UKZ>APU25N,WIDE2-2

                  W5KRO is using WIDE1-1, and the digipeater also handled those packets.

                  So from that, we know that KC5HMI-5 is supporting WIDEn-N up to at least 2 hops.

                  Let's look to see if we can see those 5 packets we know were handled by KC5HMI-5 in the APRS-IS stream. Looking through the last 1000 packets for K5ARC-2, we don't see a single instance of KC5HMI-5 handling a packet.

                  Looking at the info page for KC5HMI-5, it tells us that it has heard K5ARC-2 5 times this month, with the last time being September 11th. The raw packets you provided however show the date to be the 18th... 
                  N5UKZ also shows as not being heard ever.
                  W5KRO is reported as only being heard 2 times all month, but we have proof of 2 packets above on the 18th which don't show below.

                  callsign ▾pkts first heard - MDTlast heardlongest (rx => tx)longest at - MDT
                  K5ARC-2 52013-09-11 08:49:582013-09-11 20:30:00 EM40NC > EM40LO56.7 km 165°2013-09-11 20:30:00

                  W5KRO 22013-09-17 07:50:282013-09-17 23:03:31 EM40LM > EM40LO7.7 km 161°2013-09-17 23:03:31

                  So, once again I will reiterate that "One cannot use the APRS-IS feed for accurate analysis of RF propagation and network analysis."

                  Karo, do you have a capture log of the same time period from your W5KRO station? You state that your station hears more than the digipeater.

                  If that is true, then capture logs from both stations during the same time period will show the proof of that statement.




                  What else can we learn from the packet log?

                  We see that W5KRO-2 is a mobile station using a Tracker 2 with an outgoing path of WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1. We can also see that W5KRO-2 is acting as a digipeater since it is digipeating packets as seen below:

                  N5UKZ>APU25N,KC5HMI-5*,W5KRO-2*,WIDE2*:@182347z3023.36N/09101.15W_114/006g015t084r000p000P001h73b10143/{UIV32N}

                  Mobiles driving around acting as a digipeater are usually frowned upon due to the detrimental effect this has on the reliability of a well planned and deployed APRS network. Shutting down this mobile digipeater would help the network reliability in the area.

                  We also see that W5KRO is also acting as a full digipeater from this evidence:

                  N5YHZ>APU25N,KD5QZD-12*,W5KRO*,WIDE2*:>261135zUI-View32 V2.03

                  K5ARC-2 is a KPC-3+ running v9.0 firmware, running at a reported 81 watts of power at 150 feet with a 9 dB gain antenna and it is choking out the network using a WIDE2-2 path every 10 minutes. A digipeater effectively gets an extra hop based on the fact that it is a digi. This 2 hop path from a digipeater is equivalent to a regular user running WIDE3-3. Proportional pathing would reduce the load this station is placing on the network in the area.
                  This digipeater is also sending a number of repeater objects.
                  The 147.225 object goes out locally, which is good, but the 145.310 and 146.985 objects go out via 2 hops. Can you access these repeaters from a hundred miles away or so?

                  K5LSU-5 is gating echolink objects into the local area via 2 hops at a fairly rapid rate.

                  KD5QZD-2 reports itself as a digipeater, yet is asking for help from home fill-in digipeaters because it can't be heard by other digipeaters. Either they need to stop using WIDE1-1 as a path element, or shut down a digipeater that is basically useless if it can't be heard by other digipeaters. The second path element used by this digipeater is not supported. WIDE-2 is not a valid hop request.

                  W5LAK as well is a digipeater asking for help from home fill-in digipeaters in order to be heard.

                  In Baton Rouge, we find the KD5QZD-2 digipeater, and less than 8 miles away, W5KRO acting as a digipeater, and then just slightly further away, at 11 miles, KC5HMI-5 is a full digipeater. At about 23 miles, KD5QZD-12 is another full digipeater, at 27 miles, K5ARC-2 another full digipeater. Finally W5LAK at about 40 miles acting as a digipeater. We can't forget that W5KRO-2 is driving around acting as a mobile digipeater as well.

                  On fairly flat ground, you should be able to get a good 20 miles out of a digipeater with some modest antenna height. That would mean placing digipeaters about 40 miles apart, yet we find a plethora of digipeaters all within close proximity. These digipeaters all are programmed to act on packets heard. With so much overlap, you can end up with heterodyning, and collisions, which causes decreased network reliability rather than increasing it.

                  Of course, there can always be local terrain and other issues that may require specific digipeater placement decisions, but I would suspect that there are far too many digipeaters located far too close together to be able to achieve reliable APRS network communication.

                  --
                  James
                  VE6SRV
                • w5kro@ymail.com
                  First thanks for your time and effort helping me with this issue, You have been very helpful and informative, I set up my mobile to digi on Monday night for a
                  Message 8 of 9 , Sep 20, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment

                     First thanks for your time and effort helping me with this issue, You have been very helpful and informative, I set up my mobile to digi on Monday night for a demo I was giving from inside a large govt building,   since I was using a  ht with opentracker and handheld gps I needed the digi outside. I don't normally run around like that and it has been disabled.  The fact that we have too many digis too close together will be taken up with some of the clubs . Do you have any idea why I can only get a few miles north of kc5hmi-5 before it stops relaying my position? My work takes me all over town and north of town , Most every direction works fine until I get up north and that is why I put the digi on the tower up north hopefully to get some aprs coverage from mobiles up north. From what you have said the digi is working as programmed and I know my mobile works in every direction except north, Any ideas?



                    --- In tracker2@yahoogroups.com, <tracker2@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


                    So, this capture is done at KC5HMI-5, correct? It looks to be covering about 22 minutes from 11:35 to 11:57.

                    I deleted all the waypoint information from the file. Does the digipeater have a GPS attached? If not, kill the waypoints, and you'll get less noise to look through.

                    We can see that this site has digipeated at least 5 packets, because we can see it's callsign in a packet that has been handled by another digipeater afterwards.

                            Line 3: K5ARC-2>APN390,KC5HMI-5*,W5KRO-2*,WIDE2*:=3006.16NN09054.51W#PHG9490W2, SSn-N, K5ARC Digi Line 8: N5UKZ>APU25N,KC5HMI-5*,W5KRO-2*,WIDE2*:@182337z3023.36N/09101.15W_197/007g016t085r000p000P001h72b10143/{UIV32N} Line 20: W5KRO>APWW10,KC5HMI-5*,WIDE1*,W5KRO-2*,WIDE2*,:/184300h3031.87N/09102.05W_304/001g006t082r000p001P001h70b10144 Line 24: W5KRO>APWW10,KC5HMI-5*,WIDE1*,W5KRO-2*,WIDE2*,:;146.835-R*182345z3046.44N/09121.01WrMissLou RPT 146.835- Tone 114 Line 29: N5UKZ>APU25N,KC5HMI-5*,W5KRO-2*,WIDE2*:@182347z3023.36N/09101.15W_114/006g015t084r000p000P001h73b10143/{UIV32N}

                    This doesn't mean these are the only packets that were digipeated, but because they were handled by another station after this digipeater digipeated them, we see the evidence in the packet.

                    We can also tell what alias is being supported. K5ARC-2 and N5UKZ are using a WIDE2-2 path, and we know this digipeater handled those packets.

                    K5ARC-2>APN390,WIDE2-2
                    N5UKZ>APU25N,WIDE2-2

                    W5KRO is using WIDE1-1, and the digipeater also handled those packets.

                    So from that, we know that KC5HMI-5 is supporting WIDEn-N up to at least 2 hops.

                    Let's look to see if we can see those 5 packets we know were handled by KC5HMI-5 in the APRS-IS stream. Looking through the last 1000 packets for K5ARC-2, we don't see a single instance of KC5HMI-5 handling a packet.

                    Looking at the info page for KC5HMI-5, it tells us that it has heard K5ARC-2 5 times this month, with the last time being September 11th. The raw packets you provided however show the date to be the 18th... 
                    N5UKZ also shows as not being heard ever.
                    W5KRO is reported as only being heard 2 times all month, but we have proof of 2 packets above on the 18th which don't show below.

                    callsign ▾pkts first heard - MDTlast heardlongest (rx => tx)longest at - MDT
                    K5ARC-2 52013-09-11 08:49:582013-09-11 20:30:00 EM40NC > EM40LO56.7 km 165°2013-09-11 20:30:00

                    W5KRO 22013-09-17 07:50:282013-09-17 23:03:31 EM40LM > EM40LO7.7 km 161°2013-09-17 23:03:31

                    So, once again I will reiterate that "One cannot use the APRS-IS feed for accurate analysis of RF propagation and network analysis."

                    Karo, do you have a capture log of the same time period from your W5KRO station? You state that your station hears more than the digipeater.

                    If that is true, then capture logs from both stations during the same time period will show the proof of that statement.




                    What else can we learn from the packet log?

                    We see that W5KRO-2 is a mobile station using a Tracker 2 with an outgoing path of WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1. We can also see that W5KRO-2 is acting as a digipeater since it is digipeating packets as seen below:

                    N5UKZ>APU25N,KC5HMI-5*,W5KRO-2*,WIDE2*:@182347z3023.36N/09101.15W_114/006g015t084r000p000P001h73b10143/{UIV32N}

                    Mobiles driving around acting as a digipeater are usually frowned upon due to the detrimental effect this has on the reliability of a well planned and deployed APRS network. Shutting down this mobile digipeater would help the network reliability in the area.

                    We also see that W5KRO is also acting as a full digipeater from this evidence:

                    N5YHZ>APU25N,KD5QZD-12*,W5KRO*,WIDE2*:>261135zUI-View32 V2.03

                    K5ARC-2 is a KPC-3+ running v9.0 firmware, running at a reported 81 watts of power at 150 feet with a 9 dB gain antenna and it is choking out the network using a WIDE2-2 path every 10 minutes. A digipeater effectively gets an extra hop based on the fact that it is a digi. This 2 hop path from a digipeater is equivalent to a regular user running WIDE3-3. Proportional pathing would reduce the load this station is placing on the network in the area.
                    This digipeater is also sending a number of repeater objects.
                    The 147.225 object goes out locally, which is good, but the 145.310 and 146.985 objects go out via 2 hops. Can you access these repeaters from a hundred miles away or so?

                    K5LSU-5 is gating echolink objects into the local area via 2 hops at a fairly rapid rate.

                    KD5QZD-2 reports itself as a digipeater, yet is asking for help from home fill-in digipeaters because it can't be heard by other digipeaters. Either they need to stop using WIDE1-1 as a path element, or shut down a digipeater that is basically useless if it can't be heard by other digipeaters. The second path element used by this digipeater is not supported. WIDE-2 is not a valid hop request.

                    W5LAK as well is a digipeater asking for help from home fill-in digipeaters in order to be heard.

                    In Baton Rouge, we find the KD5QZD-2 digipeater, and less than 8 miles away, W5KRO acting as a digipeater, and then just slightly further away, at 11 miles, KC5HMI-5 is a full digipeater. At about 23 miles, KD5QZD-12 is another full digipeater, at 27 miles, K5ARC-2 another full digipeater. Finally W5LAK at about 40 miles acting as a digipeater. We can't forget that W5KRO-2 is driving around acting as a mobile digipeater as well.

                    On fairly flat ground, you should be able to get a good 20 miles out of a digipeater with some modest antenna height. That would mean placing digipeaters about 40 miles apart, yet we find a plethora of digipeaters all within close proximity. These digipeaters all are programmed to act on packets heard. With so much overlap, you can end up with heterodyning, and collisions, which causes decreased network reliability rather than increasing it.

                    Of course, there can always be local terrain and other issues that may require specific digipeater placement decisions, but I would suspect that there are far too many digipeaters located far too close together to be able to achieve reliable APRS network communication.

                    --
                    James
                    VE6SRV
                  • ve6srv
                    The antenna may be mounted on the side of the tower facing south, which would create a null to the north. There may be a building or other obstruction north of
                    Message 9 of 9 , Sep 20, 2013
                    • 0 Attachment
                      The antenna may be mounted on the side of the tower facing south, which would create a null to the north. There may be a building or other obstruction north of the digipeater.

                      There could be a number of reasons, but it is impossible to diagnose the issue from thousands of miles away.

                      Again, I would ask how you know that KC5HMI-5 stops digipeating your station when you get a few miles north of it. Are you watching the raw packets on RF as you drive around, or are you looking at a website which shows a partial feed of what is happening on RF?

                      Without knowing what it is you are doing and how you are making your observations, all I can really do is ask you more questions.

                      The observation that your mobile works in all directions except north is probably an incorrect assumption. Your mobile probably continues to work even when you are to the north, but rather you stop getting picked up by the digipeaters when you travel to the north of the digipeaters.

                      There's a big difference between your station failing to operate, and your signals failing to be picked up. The first means we need to find out why your radio stops operating, the second means we have to figure out why the signals being sent by your station fail to be heard.

                      As for how too many overlapping digipeaters end up in an area, that comes down to people not understanding the basic premise of APRS. The fact that APRS works on simplex is a key factor, but the biggest factor is that ALL digipeaters respond to the same aliases is what causes the biggest problem for people to understand.

                      Try standing in a large room full of people, with you on one side and your buddy on the other. If you speak at a normal volume level, you might get heard halfway across the room. You'll need someone in the middle of the room to repeat what you say so your buddy can get your message.

                      That guy in the middle of the room passing your message is your "digipeater". If everyone else stays quiet, your messages will get through.

                      Now what happens if 5 people all act as a "digipeater" when you talk? They all hear your message, and then all at the exact same time repeat your messsage. What are the chances that your buddy can understand what they repeated? If there's one "digipeater" really close to him, he might be able to make out what the digipeater said. However, if he's not all that close to any digipeater, he might not be able to make out the message. Audio "heterodyning" kills the message reliability.

                      In the APRS world, when this happens, some people decide to set up a digipeater closer to home so they can hear and be heard by the close digipeater. So let's add another 10 digipeaters into our room. Does the signal to noise level get better or worse? If you are really close to a digipeater, it gets better, but overall in the room, the noise level climbs a great deal. So what do people do to increase the signal? Yup, increase power... So, now we have a room full of people yelling trying to be heard, and no one wins.

                      Get everyone to quiet down, only enable the minimum number of digipeaters necessary to spread the communication around the room, and everyone learn to take turns without making too much noise.

                      All it takes is for someone to be gating packets to RF rapidly or sending too many position reports in rapid fire mode, or people to use network hogging paths, and the noise levels will start to ramp up again.

                      It takes a lot of user education to teach people about courteous use of a simplex digital network like APRS. Many users never listen to the RF channel load, and many more look at the APRS-IS stream thinking that it shows what is actually happening on the air.

                      You need to have people that understand these basic concepts paying attention to the local RF load, and helping educate new users as they pop up doing things that harm the network.

                      These same people have to be the bad guy telling "helpfull" people that set up redundant digipeaters that they are not helping, but rather harming the network. This can often cause hurt feelings, and get people upset enough that they take their toys and go home.

                      Everyone playing with APRS has to work together to ensure that they are working towards helping the APRS network, not harming it.

                      When you can get to that place, you can have a huge network that passes data very reliably over a very large area day in and day out. In my area, we can pass SSn-N packets via 6 or 7 hops across Alberta quite reliably. Normal operations are limited to 2 hops normally, but we occasionally test emergency RF only paths over maximum hops and observe the results. Being able to pass traffic over that number of hops reliably shows that your network is operating quite well.

                      Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network

                      From: <w5kro@...>
                      Sender: tracker2@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: 20 Sep 2013 13:02:52 -0700
                      To: <tracker2@yahoogroups.com>
                      ReplyTo: tracker2@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: Re: [tracker2] RE: T-2 audio level ?

                       First thanks for your time and effort helping me with this issue, You have been very helpful and informative, I set up my mobile to digi on Monday night for a demo I was giving from inside a large govt building,   since I was using a  ht with opentracker and handheld gps I needed the digi outside. I don't normally run around like that and it has been disabled.  The fact that we have too many digis too close together will be taken up with some of the clubs . Do you have any idea why I can only get a few miles north of kc5hmi-5 before it stops relaying my position? My work takes me all over town and north of town , Most every direction works fine until I get up north and that is why I put the digi on the tower up north hopefully to get some aprs coverage from mobiles up north. From what you have said the digi is working as programmed and I know my mobile works in every direction except north, Any ideas?



                      --- In tracker2@yahoogroups.com, <tracker2@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


                      So, this capture is done at KC5HMI-5, correct? It looks to be covering about 22 minutes from 11:35 to 11:57.

                      I deleted all the waypoint information from the file. Does the digipeater have a GPS attached? If not, kill the waypoints, and you'll get less noise to look through.

                      We can see that this site has digipeated at least 5 packets, because we can see it's callsign in a packet that has been handled by another digipeater afterwards.

                              Line 3: K5ARC-2>APN390,KC5HMI-5*,W5KRO-2*,WIDE2*:=3006.16NN09054.51W#PHG9490W2, SSn-N, K5ARC Digi Line 8: N5UKZ>APU25N,KC5HMI-5*,W5KRO-2*,WIDE2*:@182337z3023.36N/09101.15W_197/007g016t085r000p000P001h72b10143/{UIV32N} Line 20: W5KRO>APWW10,KC5HMI-5*,WIDE1*,W5KRO-2*,WIDE2*,:/184300h3031.87N/09102.05W_304/001g006t082r000p001P001h70b10144 Line 24: W5KRO>APWW10,KC5HMI-5*,WIDE1*,W5KRO-2*,WIDE2*,:;146.835-R*182345z3046.44N/09121.01WrMissLou RPT 146.835- Tone 114 Line 29: N5UKZ>APU25N,KC5HMI-5*,W5KRO-2*,WIDE2*:@182347z3023.36N/09101.15W_114/006g015t084r000p000P001h73b10143/{UIV32N}

                      This doesn't mean these are the only packets that were digipeated, but because they were handled by another station after this digipeater digipeated them, we see the evidence in the packet.

                      We can also tell what alias is being supported. K5ARC-2 and N5UKZ are using a WIDE2-2 path, and we know this digipeater handled those packets.

                      K5ARC-2>APN390,WIDE2-2
                      N5UKZ>APU25N,WIDE2-2

                      W5KRO is using WIDE1-1, and the digipeater also handled those packets.

                      So from that, we know that KC5HMI-5 is supporting WIDEn-N up to at least 2 hops.

                      Let's look to see if we can see those 5 packets we know were handled by KC5HMI-5 in the APRS-IS stream. Looking through the last 1000 packets for K5ARC-2, we don't see a single instance of KC5HMI-5 handling a packet.

                      Looking at the info page for KC5HMI-5, it tells us that it has heard K5ARC-2 5 times this month, with the last time being September 11th. The raw packets you provided however show the date to be the 18th... 
                      N5UKZ also shows as not being heard ever.
                      W5KRO is reported as only being heard 2 times all month, but we have proof of 2 packets above on the 18th which don't show below.

                      callsign ▾pkts first heard - MDTlast heardlongest (rx => tx)longest at - MDT
                      K5ARC-2 52013-09-11 08:49:582013-09-11 20:30:00 EM40NC > EM40LO56.7 km 165°2013-09-11 20:30:00

                      W5KRO 22013-09-17 07:50:282013-09-17 23:03:31 EM40LM > EM40LO7.7 km 161°2013-09-17 23:03:31

                      So, once again I will reiterate that "One cannot use the APRS-IS feed for accurate analysis of RF propagation and network analysis."

                      Karo, do you have a capture log of the same time period from your W5KRO station? You state that your station hears more than the digipeater.

                      If that is true, then capture logs from both stations during the same time period will show the proof of that statement.




                      What else can we learn from the packet log?

                      We see that W5KRO-2 is a mobile station using a Tracker 2 with an outgoing path of WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1. We can also see that W5KRO-2 is acting as a digipeater since it is digipeating packets as seen below:

                      N5UKZ>APU25N,KC5HMI-5*,W5KRO-2*,WIDE2*:@182347z3023.36N/09101.15W_114/006g015t084r000p000P001h73b10143/{UIV32N}

                      Mobiles driving around acting as a digipeater are usually frowned upon due to the detrimental effect this has on the reliability of a well planned and deployed APRS network. Shutting down this mobile digipeater would help the network reliability in the area.

                      We also see that W5KRO is also acting as a full digipeater from this evidence:

                      N5YHZ>APU25N,KD5QZD-12*,W5KRO*,WIDE2*:>261135zUI-View32 V2.03

                      K5ARC-2 is a KPC-3+ running v9.0 firmware, running at a reported 81 watts of power at 150 feet with a 9 dB gain antenna and it is choking out the network using a WIDE2-2 path every 10 minutes. A digipeater effectively gets an extra hop based on the fact that it is a digi. This 2 hop path from a digipeater is equivalent to a regular user running WIDE3-3. Proportional pathing would reduce the load this station is placing on the network in the area.
                      This digipeater is also sending a number of repeater objects.
                      The 147.225 object goes out locally, which is good, but the 145.310 and 146.985 objects go out via 2 hops. Can you access these repeaters from a hundred miles away or so?

                      K5LSU-5 is gating echolink objects into the local area via 2 hops at a fairly rapid rate.

                      KD5QZD-2 reports itself as a digipeater, yet is asking for help from home fill-in digipeaters because it can't be heard by other digipeaters. Either they need to stop using WIDE1-1 as a path element, or shut down a digipeater that is basically useless if it can't be heard by other digipeaters. The second path element used by this digipeater is not supported. WIDE-2 is not a valid hop request.

                      W5LAK as well is a digipeater asking for help from home fill-in digipeaters in order to be heard.

                      In Baton Rouge, we find the KD5QZD-2 digipeater, and less than 8 miles away, W5KRO acting as a digipeater, and then just slightly further away, at 11 miles, KC5HMI-5 is a full digipeater. At about 23 miles, KD5QZD-12 is another full digipeater, at 27 miles, K5ARC-2 another full digipeater. Finally W5LAK at about 40 miles acting as a digipeater. We can't forget that W5KRO-2 is driving around acting as a mobile digipeater as well.

                      On fairly flat ground, you should be able to get a good 20 miles out of a digipeater with some modest antenna height. That would mean placing digipeaters about 40 miles apart, yet we find a plethora of digipeaters all within close proximity. These digipeaters all are programmed to act on packets heard. With so much overlap, you can end up with heterodyning, and collisions, which causes decreased network reliability rather than increasing it.

                      Of course, there can always be local terrain and other issues that may require specific digipeater placement decisions, but I would suspect that there are far too many digipeaters located far too close together to be able to achieve reliable APRS network communication.

                      --
                      James
                      VE6SRV
                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.