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controlling what gets displayed on the gps

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  • Eric Fort
    In about a month I ll be out with a bunch of friends tracking and chasing a high altitude balloon payload across the southwest US. my chase setup will be a
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 8, 2013
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      In about a month I'll be out with a bunch of friends tracking and chasing a high altitude balloon payload across the southwest US.  my chase setup will be a nuvi 350 showing other stations and a tracker2 squacking my position to the other chase teams so we all know where each other and the HIBAL are located at any given time.  this brings up a couple questions:

      1.   I really  do not need a bunch of excess clutter on the nuvi screen. How can I limit the stations tracked and displayed to only those from a predetermined list (i.e. only the HIBAL and chase teams)?

      2.  It would be useful to see not just lat/lon but altitude of the HIBAL as well.  How might this best be displayed?

      Thanks,

      AF6EP
    • James Ewen
      ... Are you limiting the equipment used in the chase to just the radio, OT2, and Nuvi350? Will you have a laptop along as well? The best you can do is set a
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 8, 2013
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        On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 8:00 PM, Eric Fort <eric.fort@...> wrote:

        > 1. I really do not need a bunch of excess clutter on the nuvi screen.
        > How can I limit the stations tracked and displayed to only those from a
        > predetermined list (i.e. only the HIBAL and chase teams)?
        >
        > 2. It would be useful to see not just lat/lon but altitude of the HIBAL
        > as well. How might this best be displayed?

        Are you limiting the equipment used in the chase to just the radio,
        OT2, and Nuvi350? Will you have a laptop along as well?

        The best you can do is set a waypoint limit so you can only see
        stations within a specified distance of your station. I don't think
        you can get altitude of the payload displayed on the Nuvi.

        You could get the altitude of the payload displayed on an AvMap GPS
        connected to the OT2 though.

        If you attach a laptop, and run APRSISCE/32, you can have everything
        you want, and have it displayed on a much larger screen.

        --
        James
        VE6SRV
      • Lynn W. Deffenbaugh (Mr)
        ... Or a netbook, or a WebDT, or even a Windows Mobile (not Phone 7 or 8) cellphone (even without a SIM card) and a bluetooth to serial adapter to talk to the
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 8, 2013
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          On 2/8/2013 10:52 PM, James Ewen wrote:
          If you attach a laptop, and run APRSISCE/32, you can have everything you want, and have it displayed on a much larger screen.

          Or a netbook, or a WebDT, or even a Windows Mobile (not Phone 7 or 8) cellphone (even without a SIM card) and a bluetooth to serial adapter to talk to the OT2m.  Define a nickname with a !shriek! for the stations of interest and you can even set it up to only display those stations!

          Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32
          (and owner/operator of an OT2m, a T2-135, and a T3-135)

          PS.  See also:

          http://aprsisce.wikidot.com/

          and

          http://aprsisce.wikidot.com/menu:view which describes a !Shriek! as:

          Shrieks (formerly SkyWarn)
          APRSISCE/32 parses any !<nonwhitespace>! from comments and groups (up to 32 of) them into a View / Shrieks submenu. This allows event coordinators to pick a suitable !EVENT! for stations to put in their beacon comment to provide easy on-screen filtering of only the stations participating in the event. The Spotter Network requires their users to put !SN! in their comment, so you can expect to see !SN! in the View / Shrieks menu if any such stations are in your range.

          !Shriek!s are also parsed from nickname comments EVEN if the nickname or comment is not enabled! This allows you to nickname your favorite stations with a !WATCHME! comment and then View / Shrieks / !WATCHME! to see ONLY those stations! You could even nickname stations as !VIEW1!, !VIEW2!, !VIEW3!, and so forth to build your own local MultiTrack views of specific stations. A single station can even have multiple !VIEWn! tags in the comment to put them on multiple views.

          If nicknames are enabled, and a station has a nickname, and that nickname overrides the comment, then ONLY the comment's Shrieks are used. The comment received from the station will be ignored completely for Shriek purposes. After these conditions are no longer met, a new packet from the station must be received to get a proper !Shriek! for the station.

          (So, why "Shriek"? Search for Shriek at Wikipedia)





        • Eric Fort
          ... I d rather just use the nuvi 350 and t2-301, otherwise what s the advantage of the t2-301 nuvi combo? If I need a laptop I might as well just run
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 8, 2013
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            On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 7:52 PM, James Ewen <ve6srv@...> wrote:
             

            On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 8:00 PM, Eric Fort eric.fort@...> wrote:

            > 1. I really do not need a bunch of excess clutter on the nuvi screen.
            > How can I limit the stations tracked and displayed to only those from a
            > predetermined list (i.e. only the HIBAL and chase teams)?
            >
            > 2. It would be useful to see not just lat/lon but altitude of the HIBAL
            > as well. How might this best be displayed?

            Are you limiting the equipment used in the chase to just the radio,
            OT2, and Nuvi350? Will you have a laptop along as well?

            I'd rather just use the nuvi 350 and t2-301, otherwise what's the advantage of the t2-301 nuvi combo?  If I need a laptop I might as well just run soundmodem on the laptop and attach that to a radio.
             

            The best you can do is set a waypoint limit so you can only see
            stations within a specified distance of your station. I don't think
            you can get altitude of the payload displayed on the Nuvi.


            What about using some creative scripting on the t2 to limit what the nuvi sees?  Any possibilities there?
             
            You could get the altitude of the payload displayed on an AvMap GPS
            connected to the OT2 though.

            AvMap?  what are you referring to?
             

            If you attach a laptop, and run APRSISCE/32, you can have everything
            you want, and have it displayed on a much larger screen.


            I'll consider that as an option, but then doesn't that defeat the entire point of the nuvi/t2-301 combo?
             
            Eric

            --
            James
            VE6SRV


          • Brian Webster
            If there is a way you will have to do it within the T2 software. I don t think you have that level of control with the Nuvi. If you don t think you will get
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 10, 2013
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              If there is a way you will have to do it within the T2 software. I don’t think you have that level of control with the Nuvi. If you don’t think you will get too far separated you could always just switch both radios to another frequency and be the only two in the sandbox J

               

              Thank You,

              Brian N2KGC

               

              From: tracker2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:tracker2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Eric Fort
              Sent: Friday, February 08, 2013 11:55 PM
              To: tracker2@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [tracker2] controlling what gets displayed on the gps

               

               

               

              On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 7:52 PM, James Ewen <ve6srv@...> wrote:

               

              On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 8:00 PM, Eric Fort eric.fort@...> wrote:

              > 1. I really do not need a bunch of excess clutter on the nuvi screen.
              > How can I limit the stations tracked and displayed to only those from a
              > predetermined list (i.e. only the HIBAL and chase teams)?
              >
              > 2. It would be useful to see not just lat/lon but altitude of the HIBAL
              > as well. How might this best be displayed?

              Are you limiting the equipment used in the chase to just the radio,
              OT2, and Nuvi350? Will you have a laptop along as well?


              I'd rather just use the nuvi 350 and t2-301, otherwise what's the advantage of the t2-301 nuvi combo?  If I need a laptop I might as well just run soundmodem on the laptop and attach that to a radio.
               


              The best you can do is set a waypoint limit so you can only see
              stations within a specified distance of your station. I don't think
              you can get altitude of the payload displayed on the Nuvi.


              What about using some creative scripting on the t2 to limit what the nuvi sees?  Any possibilities there?
               

              You could get the altitude of the payload displayed on an AvMap GPS
              connected to the OT2 though.


              AvMap?  what are you referring to?
               


              If you attach a laptop, and run APRSISCE/32, you can have everything
              you want, and have it displayed on a much larger screen.


              I'll consider that as an option, but then doesn't that defeat the entire point of the nuvi/t2-301 combo?
               
              Eric

              --
              James
              VE6SRV

               

            • James Ewen
              ... You tell me what the advantage is... The only advantage I see is less equipment in the vehicle, but you are limited to the capabilities of the equipment
              Message 6 of 9 , Feb 10, 2013
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                On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 9:54 PM, Eric Fort <eric.fort@...> wrote:

                >> Are you limiting the equipment used in the chase to just the radio,
                >> OT2, and Nuvi350? Will you have a laptop along as well?
                >
                >
                > I'd rather just use the nuvi 350 and t2-301, otherwise what's the
                > advantage of the t2-301 nuvi combo? If I need a laptop I might as well just
                > run soundmodem on the laptop and attach that to a radio.

                You tell me what the advantage is... The only advantage I see is less
                equipment in the vehicle, but you are limited to the capabilities of
                the equipment chosen. I love the OpenTracker line. I have over a dozen
                OTUSB/OT2/OT3 units, and an R-Trak HAB as well... they all have their
                own specialized purposes. However I run my Kenwood D710 and AvMap G6
                in the truck because the capabilities available in those devices
                provide me with the desired functionality. I also run a TH-D72 as my
                handheld unit. The two Kenwood devices and the AvMap give me
                everything I need to be able to chase and recover HAB payloads. I
                can't achieve the same level of functionality with the OT line and the
                Nuvi350.

                When chasing balloons however, I add on the laptop (or WebDT366) so
                that I get an even larger screen, a historic track of the payload
                path, packet logs, and a bunch more functionality that I can't get out
                of the Kenwood and AvMap G6.

                > What about using some creative scripting on the t2 to limit what the nuvi
                > sees? Any possibilities there?

                Not that I can think of. We don't have access to manipulating the
                incoming data stream. That would take a fair bit of processor power,
                and a lot of memory to be able to provide enough commands to parse out
                packets and manipulate them based on your own criteria.

                >> You could get the altitude of the payload displayed on an AvMap GPS
                >> connected to the OT2 though.
                >
                > AvMap? what are you referring to?

                Uh, the AvMap GPS line... The current production model is the AvMap
                G6. http://www.geosat.us/ It is a GPS built in Italy, but it has
                firmware custom designed to support APRS built in. No other GPS
                manufacturer supports APRS. The closest anyone else comes is Garmin,
                and that's only because Scott has manipulated their Fleet Management
                Interface into believing that APRS data is FMI data. We all know how
                interested Garmin is in making the FMI mode work properly to support
                live data from the APRS network.

                The AvMap G6 is the latest in the AvMap line to support APRS. The G4
                and G5 units also supported APRS functionality. With the G6, I can
                tell the unit to follow a specified target (the balloon payload), and
                I can have three windows open on the map screen showing me specific
                data on that payload (I like speed, heading, and altitude when
                chasing). I can tell the GPS to calculate a route to the payload (not
                a good idea while the balloon is in flight, you want to head to where
                it is going to land, not where it is currently), but when the payload
                is on the ground, the GPS can direct you to the area.

                >> If you attach a laptop, and run APRSISCE/32, you can have everything
                >> you want, and have it displayed on a much larger screen.
                >>
                >
                > I'll consider that as an option, but then doesn't that defeat the entire
                > point of the nuvi/t2-301 combo?

                That all depends on what the point of the T2-301 and Nuvi is... If you
                want a small minimal component count APRS station with the ability to
                see incoming icons on the screen, and the ability to send and receive
                messages on screen, then you've probably got the right package.

                If you want to be able to limit the incoming display to just a single
                specific station, or group of stations, and to be able to see the
                altitude of a specific station on screen, then you probably don't have
                the right package.

                Ham radio is a niche market. APRS is a niche market in the ham radio
                niche market. HAB tracking is a niche market in the APRS niche market
                of the ham radio niche market. Most manufacturers aim to position
                their products to hit the largest market possible. The fact that AvMap
                is producing a product that supports APRS is amazing, and then they
                also have features that cater to the HAB niche is even more amazing.

                You can't sit in a rowboat in the middle of a corn field in Nebraska
                and wonder why you're not flying to London. Sometimes you need
                specialized equipment to perform a specialized task. :)

                As Brian suggested, perhaps using a unique frequency would give you
                the ability to limit the stations heard. Hopefully you are aware that
                once your payload is aloft, there is no need to run an outgoing path.
                With the payload over 1000' AGL, asking for digipeats is a waste of
                time. Your payload will transmit much further than any ground based
                digipeater around. Moving to a frequency with no digipeaters available
                does not affect your ability to track. You can have ground based
                stations switch to the unique frequency and i-gate your packets so
                they appear on the APRS-IS stream.

                Many HAB groups run paths at altitude, which just causes all kinds of
                unnecessary noise on the ground. Dozens to hundreds of digipeaters end
                up repeating packets that are easily copied by every station on the
                ground already. Even worse people run with WIDE1-1 as a path request,
                causing not only every digipeater to act upon the packet, but every
                home fill-in digipeater as well.

                If you are running a quality HAB APRS tracking payload, you'll have
                the ability to change paths based on profile switching. Set up your
                profile switching to use no path on one profile, and then once the
                payload has dropped below something like 5000 feet, add an outgoing
                path to ask for help from the digipeaters. If you land somewhere a
                long distance from an i-gate, and your chase teams have managed to not
                keep up with the payload, a digipeat *might* help you get closer.

                Many people feel that if the payload can't be heard on the ground via
                the APRS-IS stream, that there's no possible way of recovering the
                payload. That is not the case. We've had payloads stop being gated at
                20,000 feet AGL and still been able to find them on the ground. You
                simply extrapolate the flight path based on the winds seen on the way
                up and go to the projected area. If need be set up a search grid and
                search until you can hear your payload.

                If you have a frequency agile payload, you can have the unit switch
                back and forth between your unique frequency and 144.390, and get the
                best of both worlds.

                --
                James
                VE6SRV
              • Matthew Cook
                I ll second James comments regarding the PATH in your APRS payload... Here in Oz we use custom HAB hardware and firmware (http://rfhead.net/?p=476) that has no
                Message 7 of 9 , Feb 10, 2013
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                  I'll second James comments regarding the PATH in your APRS payload...   Here in Oz we use custom HAB hardware and firmware (http://rfhead.net/?p=476) that has no path included in the out going fraome until the balloon has burst and is on decent and dropping below 3000' ASL..  We used to run WIDE2-1 but that as James suggests causes alot of noise on the ground...   Using the wides means we do get some assistance from other digi's and iGates, but keep in mind there are only 3 iGates and 8 or so digi's in the entire of South Australia we don't have the same sort of population densities found elsewhere... out where our balloons land we need to use at least one digi to skip over a mountain range and back into Adelaide to hit the iGates... although there will be rPi in the truck soon running my own Rx only iGate, yes we have better mobile coverage out this far in the country that we do repeaters at times...  Unless we're flying one on the balloon that is...

                  In all of our launches we use two telemetry systems with ARPS as the backup.  The primary system is a 25mW RTTY 70cm module that sends continuous data.  It's the same one the guys in the UK use check out http://www.spacenear.us/tracker for more details.

                  In the car we use the D710 and on foot you can't beat the D72's.  In the car the D710 is in the front seat where I can see it, we also have a bluetooth dongle on the serial port for feeding to our telemetry systems (with bigger screens) in the back seat.  You can see most of the gear in the truck (toyota hilux) here.. (http://projecthorus.org/?page_id=2224).. Yours truly is the one with the beard.  Having custom gear helps recover all of your payloads... We've only truly lost one, sacrifced three out of 30 launches.  We've also flown 3D cameras worth more than our trucks.

                  Since we fly with primary 70cm and backup 2m APRS telemetry we've not "lost" communciation with our balloons for quite some time..  The Australian Civil Aviation and Safety Authority (CASA) are rightfully quite strict on who can fly HAB payloads here in Australia (we're actually licensed to do so with our own Balloon Airport in the Adelaide Hills) and we are required to keep in contact with our balloons at all times..  We've also got a couple of "restricted zones" we're not allowed to fly into (north of Adelaide) which makes life fun (read on).

                  However we also run the CUSF HAB prediction software on where flights and roughly know where they are likely to go ie (http://www.projecthorus.org/predict/)..   We've found that using the CUSF predictor (and some knowledge about the balloons you're using) that our payloads drop within a 50km radius of the predicted landing site, once we have the wind data on accent this narrows to only 5km.  We usually run scenarios on the weather in the week leading up to the launch.   Being able to get within 5kms of the general landing area means we can find any 25mW signal with a 7el beam and a good receiver.  If you poke around the Project Horus site you'll find many videos (ie Horus 7) of where we've launched, driven and then watched/video'd the balloon land, all simply based on the predictions.

                  73's

                  Matthew
                  VK5ZM

                  On 11 February 2013 04:36, James Ewen <ve6srv@...> wrote:
                   

                  On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 9:54 PM, Eric Fort eric.fort@...> wrote:

                  >> Are you limiting the equipment used in the chase to just the radio,
                  >> OT2, and Nuvi350? Will you have a laptop along as well?
                  >
                  >
                  > I'd rather just use the nuvi 350 and t2-301, otherwise what's the
                  > advantage of the t2-301 nuvi combo? If I need a laptop I might as well just
                  > run soundmodem on the laptop and attach that to a radio.

                  You tell me what the advantage is... The only advantage I see is less
                  equipment in the vehicle, but you are limited to the capabilities of
                  the equipment chosen. I love the OpenTracker line. I have over a dozen
                  OTUSB/OT2/OT3 units, and an R-Trak HAB as well... they all have their
                  own specialized purposes. However I run my Kenwood D710 and AvMap G6
                  in the truck because the capabilities available in those devices
                  provide me with the desired functionality. I also run a TH-D72 as my
                  handheld unit. The two Kenwood devices and the AvMap give me
                  everything I need to be able to chase and recover HAB payloads. I
                  can't achieve the same level of functionality with the OT line and the
                  Nuvi350.

                  When chasing balloons however, I add on the laptop (or WebDT366) so
                  that I get an even larger screen, a historic track of the payload
                  path, packet logs, and a bunch more functionality that I can't get out
                  of the Kenwood and AvMap G6.


                  > What about using some creative scripting on the t2 to limit what the nuvi
                  > sees? Any possibilities there?

                  Not that I can think of. We don't have access to manipulating the
                  incoming data stream. That would take a fair bit of processor power,
                  and a lot of memory to be able to provide enough commands to parse out
                  packets and manipulate them based on your own criteria.


                  >> You could get the altitude of the payload displayed on an AvMap GPS
                  >> connected to the OT2 though.
                  >
                  > AvMap? what are you referring to?

                  Uh, the AvMap GPS line... The current production model is the AvMap
                  G6. http://www.geosat.us/ It is a GPS built in Italy, but it has
                  firmware custom designed to support APRS built in. No other GPS
                  manufacturer supports APRS. The closest anyone else comes is Garmin,
                  and that's only because Scott has manipulated their Fleet Management
                  Interface into believing that APRS data is FMI data. We all know how
                  interested Garmin is in making the FMI mode work properly to support
                  live data from the APRS network.

                  The AvMap G6 is the latest in the AvMap line to support APRS. The G4
                  and G5 units also supported APRS functionality. With the G6, I can
                  tell the unit to follow a specified target (the balloon payload), and
                  I can have three windows open on the map screen showing me specific
                  data on that payload (I like speed, heading, and altitude when
                  chasing). I can tell the GPS to calculate a route to the payload (not
                  a good idea while the balloon is in flight, you want to head to where
                  it is going to land, not where it is currently), but when the payload
                  is on the ground, the GPS can direct you to the area.


                  >> If you attach a laptop, and run APRSISCE/32, you can have everything
                  >> you want, and have it displayed on a much larger screen.
                  >>
                  >
                  > I'll consider that as an option, but then doesn't that defeat the entire
                  > point of the nuvi/t2-301 combo?

                  That all depends on what the point of the T2-301 and Nuvi is... If you
                  want a small minimal component count APRS station with the ability to
                  see incoming icons on the screen, and the ability to send and receive
                  messages on screen, then you've probably got the right package.

                  If you want to be able to limit the incoming display to just a single
                  specific station, or group of stations, and to be able to see the
                  altitude of a specific station on screen, then you probably don't have
                  the right package.

                  Ham radio is a niche market. APRS is a niche market in the ham radio
                  niche market. HAB tracking is a niche market in the APRS niche market
                  of the ham radio niche market. Most manufacturers aim to position
                  their products to hit the largest market possible. The fact that AvMap
                  is producing a product that supports APRS is amazing, and then they
                  also have features that cater to the HAB niche is even more amazing.

                  You can't sit in a rowboat in the middle of a corn field in Nebraska
                  and wonder why you're not flying to London. Sometimes you need
                  specialized equipment to perform a specialized task. :)

                  As Brian suggested, perhaps using a unique frequency would give you
                  the ability to limit the stations heard. Hopefully you are aware that
                  once your payload is aloft, there is no need to run an outgoing path.
                  With the payload over 1000' AGL, asking for digipeats is a waste of
                  time. Your payload will transmit much further than any ground based
                  digipeater around. Moving to a frequency with no digipeaters available
                  does not affect your ability to track. You can have ground based
                  stations switch to the unique frequency and i-gate your packets so
                  they appear on the APRS-IS stream.

                  Many HAB groups run paths at altitude, which just causes all kinds of
                  unnecessary noise on the ground. Dozens to hundreds of digipeaters end
                  up repeating packets that are easily copied by every station on the
                  ground already. Even worse people run with WIDE1-1 as a path request,
                  causing not only every digipeater to act upon the packet, but every
                  home fill-in digipeater as well.

                  If you are running a quality HAB APRS tracking payload, you'll have
                  the ability to change paths based on profile switching. Set up your
                  profile switching to use no path on one profile, and then once the
                  payload has dropped below something like 5000 feet, add an outgoing
                  path to ask for help from the digipeaters. If you land somewhere a
                  long distance from an i-gate, and your chase teams have managed to not
                  keep up with the payload, a digipeat *might* help you get closer.

                  Many people feel that if the payload can't be heard on the ground via
                  the APRS-IS stream, that there's no possible way of recovering the
                  payload. That is not the case. We've had payloads stop being gated at
                  20,000 feet AGL and still been able to find them on the ground. You
                  simply extrapolate the flight path based on the winds seen on the way
                  up and go to the projected area. If need be set up a search grid and
                  search until you can hear your payload.

                  If you have a frequency agile payload, you can have the unit switch
                  back and forth between your unique frequency and 144.390, and get the
                  best of both worlds.

                  --
                  James
                  VE6SRV




                  --
                  Matthew
                  VK5ZM
                  0487 653 245
                • Scott Miller
                  But why the heck is Australia so strict on HAB activity, with similar land area to the US and 1/10th the population? Scott
                  Message 8 of 9 , Feb 11, 2013
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                    But why the heck is Australia so strict on HAB activity, with similar
                    land area to the US and 1/10th the population?

                    Scott

                    On 2/10/2013 5:28 PM, Matthew Cook wrote:
                    > I'll second James comments regarding the PATH in your APRS payload...
                    > Here in Oz we use custom HAB hardware and firmware
                    > (http://rfhead.net/?p=476) that has no path included in the out going
                    > fraome until the balloon has burst and is on decent and dropping below
                    > 3000' ASL.. We used to run WIDE2-1 but that as James suggests causes
                    > alot of noise on the ground... Using the wides means we do get some
                    > assistance from other digi's and iGates, but keep in mind there are only
                    > 3 iGates and 8 or so digi's in the entire of South Australia we don't
                    > have the same sort of population densities found elsewhere... out where
                    > our balloons land we need to use at least one digi to skip over a
                    > mountain range and back into Adelaide to hit the iGates... although
                    > there will be rPi in the truck soon running my own Rx only iGate, yes we
                    > have better mobile coverage out this far in the country that we do
                    > repeaters at times... Unless we're flying one on the balloon that is...
                    >
                    > In all of our launches we use two telemetry systems with ARPS as the
                    > backup. The primary system is a 25mW RTTY 70cm module that sends
                    > continuous data. It's the same one the guys in the UK use check out
                    > http://www.spacenear.us/tracker for more details.
                    >
                    > In the car we use the D710 and on foot you can't beat the D72's. In the
                    > car the D710 is in the front seat where I can see it, we also have a
                    > bluetooth dongle on the serial port for feeding to our telemetry systems
                    > (with bigger screens) in the back seat. You can see most of the gear in
                    > the truck (toyota hilux) here..
                    > (http://projecthorus.org/?page_id=2224).. Yours truly is the one with
                    > the beard. Having custom gear helps recover all of your payloads...
                    > We've only truly lost one, sacrifced three out of 30 launches. We've
                    > also flown 3D cameras worth more than our trucks.
                    >
                    > Since we fly with primary 70cm and backup 2m APRS telemetry we've not
                    > "lost" communciation with our balloons for quite some time.. The
                    > Australian Civil Aviation and Safety Authority (CASA) are rightfully
                    > quite strict on who can fly HAB payloads here in Australia (we're
                    > actually licensed to do so with our own Balloon Airport in the Adelaide
                    > Hills) and we are required to keep in contact with our balloons at all
                    > times.. We've also got a couple of "restricted zones" we're not allowed
                    > to fly into (north of Adelaide) which makes life fun (read on).
                    >
                    > However we also run the CUSF HAB prediction software on where flights
                    > and roughly know where they are likely to go ie
                    > (http://www.projecthorus.org/predict/).. We've found that using the
                    > CUSF predictor (and some knowledge about the balloons you're using) that
                    > our payloads drop within a 50km radius of the predicted landing site,
                    > once we have the wind data on accent this narrows to only 5km. We
                    > usually run scenarios on the weather in the week leading up to the
                    > launch. Being able to get within 5kms of the general landing area
                    > means we can find any 25mW signal with a 7el beam and a good receiver.
                    > If you poke around the Project Horus site you'll find many videos (ie
                    > Horus 7) of where we've launched, driven and then watched/video'd the
                    > balloon land, all simply based on the predictions.
                    >
                    > 73's
                    >
                    > Matthew
                    > VK5ZM
                    >
                    > On 11 February 2013 04:36, James Ewen <ve6srv@...
                    > <mailto:ve6srv@...>> wrote:
                    >
                    > __
                    >
                    > On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 9:54 PM, Eric Fort eric.fort@...
                    > <mailto:eric.fort%40gmail.com>> wrote:
                    >
                    > >> Are you limiting the equipment used in the chase to just the radio,
                    > >> OT2, and Nuvi350? Will you have a laptop along as well?
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > I'd rather just use the nuvi 350 and t2-301, otherwise what's the
                    > > advantage of the t2-301 nuvi combo? If I need a laptop I might as
                    > well just
                    > > run soundmodem on the laptop and attach that to a radio.
                    >
                    > You tell me what the advantage is... The only advantage I see is less
                    > equipment in the vehicle, but you are limited to the capabilities of
                    > the equipment chosen. I love the OpenTracker line. I have over a dozen
                    > OTUSB/OT2/OT3 units, and an R-Trak HAB as well... they all have their
                    > own specialized purposes. However I run my Kenwood D710 and AvMap G6
                    > in the truck because the capabilities available in those devices
                    > provide me with the desired functionality. I also run a TH-D72 as my
                    > handheld unit. The two Kenwood devices and the AvMap give me
                    > everything I need to be able to chase and recover HAB payloads. I
                    > can't achieve the same level of functionality with the OT line and the
                    > Nuvi350.
                    >
                    > When chasing balloons however, I add on the laptop (or WebDT366) so
                    > that I get an even larger screen, a historic track of the payload
                    > path, packet logs, and a bunch more functionality that I can't get out
                    > of the Kenwood and AvMap G6.
                    >
                    >
                    > > What about using some creative scripting on the t2 to limit what
                    > the nuvi
                    > > sees? Any possibilities there?
                    >
                    > Not that I can think of. We don't have access to manipulating the
                    > incoming data stream. That would take a fair bit of processor power,
                    > and a lot of memory to be able to provide enough commands to parse out
                    > packets and manipulate them based on your own criteria.
                    >
                    >
                    > >> You could get the altitude of the payload displayed on an AvMap GPS
                    > >> connected to the OT2 though.
                    > >
                    > > AvMap? what are you referring to?
                    >
                    > Uh, the AvMap GPS line... The current production model is the AvMap
                    > G6. http://www.geosat.us/ It is a GPS built in Italy, but it has
                    > firmware custom designed to support APRS built in. No other GPS
                    > manufacturer supports APRS. The closest anyone else comes is Garmin,
                    > and that's only because Scott has manipulated their Fleet Management
                    > Interface into believing that APRS data is FMI data. We all know how
                    > interested Garmin is in making the FMI mode work properly to support
                    > live data from the APRS network.
                    >
                    > The AvMap G6 is the latest in the AvMap line to support APRS. The G4
                    > and G5 units also supported APRS functionality. With the G6, I can
                    > tell the unit to follow a specified target (the balloon payload), and
                    > I can have three windows open on the map screen showing me specific
                    > data on that payload (I like speed, heading, and altitude when
                    > chasing). I can tell the GPS to calculate a route to the payload (not
                    > a good idea while the balloon is in flight, you want to head to where
                    > it is going to land, not where it is currently), but when the payload
                    > is on the ground, the GPS can direct you to the area.
                    >
                    >
                    > >> If you attach a laptop, and run APRSISCE/32, you can have everything
                    > >> you want, and have it displayed on a much larger screen.
                    > >>
                    > >
                    > > I'll consider that as an option, but then doesn't that defeat the
                    > entire
                    > > point of the nuvi/t2-301 combo?
                    >
                    > That all depends on what the point of the T2-301 and Nuvi is... If you
                    > want a small minimal component count APRS station with the ability to
                    > see incoming icons on the screen, and the ability to send and receive
                    > messages on screen, then you've probably got the right package.
                    >
                    > If you want to be able to limit the incoming display to just a single
                    > specific station, or group of stations, and to be able to see the
                    > altitude of a specific station on screen, then you probably don't have
                    > the right package.
                    >
                    > Ham radio is a niche market. APRS is a niche market in the ham radio
                    > niche market. HAB tracking is a niche market in the APRS niche market
                    > of the ham radio niche market. Most manufacturers aim to position
                    > their products to hit the largest market possible. The fact that AvMap
                    > is producing a product that supports APRS is amazing, and then they
                    > also have features that cater to the HAB niche is even more amazing.
                    >
                    > You can't sit in a rowboat in the middle of a corn field in Nebraska
                    > and wonder why you're not flying to London. Sometimes you need
                    > specialized equipment to perform a specialized task. :)
                    >
                    > As Brian suggested, perhaps using a unique frequency would give you
                    > the ability to limit the stations heard. Hopefully you are aware that
                    > once your payload is aloft, there is no need to run an outgoing path.
                    > With the payload over 1000' AGL, asking for digipeats is a waste of
                    > time. Your payload will transmit much further than any ground based
                    > digipeater around. Moving to a frequency with no digipeaters available
                    > does not affect your ability to track. You can have ground based
                    > stations switch to the unique frequency and i-gate your packets so
                    > they appear on the APRS-IS stream.
                    >
                    > Many HAB groups run paths at altitude, which just causes all kinds of
                    > unnecessary noise on the ground. Dozens to hundreds of digipeaters end
                    > up repeating packets that are easily copied by every station on the
                    > ground already. Even worse people run with WIDE1-1 as a path request,
                    > causing not only every digipeater to act upon the packet, but every
                    > home fill-in digipeater as well.
                    >
                    > If you are running a quality HAB APRS tracking payload, you'll have
                    > the ability to change paths based on profile switching. Set up your
                    > profile switching to use no path on one profile, and then once the
                    > payload has dropped below something like 5000 feet, add an outgoing
                    > path to ask for help from the digipeaters. If you land somewhere a
                    > long distance from an i-gate, and your chase teams have managed to not
                    > keep up with the payload, a digipeat *might* help you get closer.
                    >
                    > Many people feel that if the payload can't be heard on the ground via
                    > the APRS-IS stream, that there's no possible way of recovering the
                    > payload. That is not the case. We've had payloads stop being gated at
                    > 20,000 feet AGL and still been able to find them on the ground. You
                    > simply extrapolate the flight path based on the winds seen on the way
                    > up and go to the projected area. If need be set up a search grid and
                    > search until you can hear your payload.
                    >
                    > If you have a frequency agile payload, you can have the unit switch
                    > back and forth between your unique frequency and 144.390, and get the
                    > best of both worlds.
                    >
                    > --
                    > James
                    > VE6SRV
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --
                    > Matthew
                    > VK5ZM
                    > 0487 653 245
                    >
                    >
                  • Matthew Cook
                    Ah that is a good question. We re not 100% sure.. There have been HAB experiments where people have let balloons go and tracked them for the past 30 years,
                    Message 9 of 9 , Feb 11, 2013
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Ah that is a good question.  We're not 100% sure..

                      There have been HAB experiments where people have let balloons go and tracked them for the past 30 years, but none of them technically had any form of approval.  Project Horus was the first group in Australia to get official approval to fly HAB experiments, 3 years ago.

                      When we launch a HAB from Adelaide we actually put out a NOTAM three days in advance and the airspace is cleared above our Balloon-port...  I'm guessing that CASA don't want any "harmless science experments" wrapped around the wings of any aircraft that are landing nearby... would be sort of a bad new week that one.

                      We're very lucky here that the prevailing winds are from the SW and that out to the NE there is not alot but some farms and bushland... so when we fly there isn't much to hit other than the odd sheep, kangaroo or cow.  Mind you there are a few Permanent Rivers, National Parks Gunnery ranges, 275kV high tension power lines, african safari park (inc lions) that make life interesting.  I think the biggest challange is the jet stream and the distance our HAB can acheive in a 4hr flight... it is not uncommon for us to be travelling 200-300mi to retrieve a payload.

                      But it's fun that is for sure.  Like I've said previously now that we have APRS as a backup we'd never go back to flying with out it.   So now you know what all the bits and pieces I've been buying are being used for ;-)

                      73's

                      Matthew
                      VK5ZM

                      On 12 February 2013 15:47, Scott Miller <scott@...> wrote:
                      But why the heck is Australia so strict on HAB activity, with similar
                      land area to the US and 1/10th the population?

                      Scott

                      On 2/10/2013 5:28 PM, Matthew Cook wrote:
                      > I'll second James comments regarding the PATH in your APRS payload...
                      > Here in Oz we use custom HAB hardware and firmware
                      > (http://rfhead.net/?p=476) that has no path included in the out going
                      > fraome until the balloon has burst and is on decent and dropping below
                      > 3000' ASL..  We used to run WIDE2-1 but that as James suggests causes
                      > alot of noise on the ground...   Using the wides means we do get some
                      > assistance from other digi's and iGates, but keep in mind there are only
                      > 3 iGates and 8 or so digi's in the entire of South Australia we don't
                      > have the same sort of population densities found elsewhere... out where
                      > our balloons land we need to use at least one digi to skip over a
                      > mountain range and back into Adelaide to hit the iGates... although
                      > there will be rPi in the truck soon running my own Rx only iGate, yes we
                      > have better mobile coverage out this far in the country that we do
                      > repeaters at times...  Unless we're flying one on the balloon that is...
                      >
                      > In all of our launches we use two telemetry systems with ARPS as the
                      > backup.  The primary system is a 25mW RTTY 70cm module that sends
                      > continuous data.  It's the same one the guys in the UK use check out
                      > http://www.spacenear.us/tracker for more details.
                      >
                      > In the car we use the D710 and on foot you can't beat the D72's.  In the
                      > car the D710 is in the front seat where I can see it, we also have a
                      > bluetooth dongle on the serial port for feeding to our telemetry systems
                      > (with bigger screens) in the back seat.  You can see most of the gear in
                      > the truck (toyota hilux) here..
                      > (http://projecthorus.org/?page_id=2224).. Yours truly is the one with
                      > the beard.  Having custom gear helps recover all of your payloads...
                      > We've only truly lost one, sacrifced three out of 30 launches.  We've
                      > also flown 3D cameras worth more than our trucks.
                      >
                      > Since we fly with primary 70cm and backup 2m APRS telemetry we've not
                      > "lost" communciation with our balloons for quite some time..  The
                      > Australian Civil Aviation and Safety Authority (CASA) are rightfully
                      > quite strict on who can fly HAB payloads here in Australia (we're
                      > actually licensed to do so with our own Balloon Airport in the Adelaide
                      > Hills) and we are required to keep in contact with our balloons at all
                      > times..  We've also got a couple of "restricted zones" we're not allowed
                      > to fly into (north of Adelaide) which makes life fun (read on).
                      >
                      > However we also run the CUSF HAB prediction software on where flights
                      > and roughly know where they are likely to go ie
                      > (http://www.projecthorus.org/predict/)..   We've found that using the
                      > CUSF predictor (and some knowledge about the balloons you're using) that
                      > our payloads drop within a 50km radius of the predicted landing site,
                      > once we have the wind data on accent this narrows to only 5km.  We
                      > usually run scenarios on the weather in the week leading up to the
                      > launch.   Being able to get within 5kms of the general landing area
                      > means we can find any 25mW signal with a 7el beam and a good receiver.
                      > If you poke around the Project Horus site you'll find many videos (ie
                      > Horus 7) of where we've launched, driven and then watched/video'd the
                      > balloon land, all simply based on the predictions.
                      >
                      > 73's
                      >
                      > Matthew
                      > VK5ZM
                      >
                      > On 11 February 2013 04:36, James Ewen <ve6srv@...
                      > <mailto:ve6srv@...>> wrote:
                      >
                      >     __
                      >
                      >     On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 9:54 PM, Eric Fort eric.fort@...
                      >     <mailto:eric.fort%40gmail.com>> wrote:
                      >
                      >      >> Are you limiting the equipment used in the chase to just the radio,
                      >      >> OT2, and Nuvi350? Will you have a laptop along as well?
                      >      >
                      >      >
                      >      > I'd rather just use the nuvi 350 and t2-301, otherwise what's the
                      >      > advantage of the t2-301 nuvi combo? If I need a laptop I might as
                      >     well just
                      >      > run soundmodem on the laptop and attach that to a radio.
                      >
                      >     You tell me what the advantage is... The only advantage I see is less
                      >     equipment in the vehicle, but you are limited to the capabilities of
                      >     the equipment chosen. I love the OpenTracker line. I have over a dozen
                      >     OTUSB/OT2/OT3 units, and an R-Trak HAB as well... they all have their
                      >     own specialized purposes. However I run my Kenwood D710 and AvMap G6
                      >     in the truck because the capabilities available in those devices
                      >     provide me with the desired functionality. I also run a TH-D72 as my
                      >     handheld unit. The two Kenwood devices and the AvMap give me
                      >     everything I need to be able to chase and recover HAB payloads. I
                      >     can't achieve the same level of functionality with the OT line and the
                      >     Nuvi350.
                      >
                      >     When chasing balloons however, I add on the laptop (or WebDT366) so
                      >     that I get an even larger screen, a historic track of the payload
                      >     path, packet logs, and a bunch more functionality that I can't get out
                      >     of the Kenwood and AvMap G6.
                      >
                      >
                      >      > What about using some creative scripting on the t2 to limit what
                      >     the nuvi
                      >      > sees? Any possibilities there?
                      >
                      >     Not that I can think of. We don't have access to manipulating the
                      >     incoming data stream. That would take a fair bit of processor power,
                      >     and a lot of memory to be able to provide enough commands to parse out
                      >     packets and manipulate them based on your own criteria.
                      >
                      >
                      >      >> You could get the altitude of the payload displayed on an AvMap GPS
                      >      >> connected to the OT2 though.
                      >      >
                      >      > AvMap? what are you referring to?
                      >
                      >     Uh, the AvMap GPS line... The current production model is the AvMap
                      >     G6. http://www.geosat.us/ It is a GPS built in Italy, but it has
                      >     firmware custom designed to support APRS built in. No other GPS
                      >     manufacturer supports APRS. The closest anyone else comes is Garmin,
                      >     and that's only because Scott has manipulated their Fleet Management
                      >     Interface into believing that APRS data is FMI data. We all know how
                      >     interested Garmin is in making the FMI mode work properly to support
                      >     live data from the APRS network.
                      >
                      >     The AvMap G6 is the latest in the AvMap line to support APRS. The G4
                      >     and G5 units also supported APRS functionality. With the G6, I can
                      >     tell the unit to follow a specified target (the balloon payload), and
                      >     I can have three windows open on the map screen showing me specific
                      >     data on that payload (I like speed, heading, and altitude when
                      >     chasing). I can tell the GPS to calculate a route to the payload (not
                      >     a good idea while the balloon is in flight, you want to head to where
                      >     it is going to land, not where it is currently), but when the payload
                      >     is on the ground, the GPS can direct you to the area.
                      >
                      >
                      >      >> If you attach a laptop, and run APRSISCE/32, you can have everything
                      >      >> you want, and have it displayed on a much larger screen.
                      >      >>
                      >      >
                      >      > I'll consider that as an option, but then doesn't that defeat the
                      >     entire
                      >      > point of the nuvi/t2-301 combo?
                      >
                      >     That all depends on what the point of the T2-301 and Nuvi is... If you
                      >     want a small minimal component count APRS station with the ability to
                      >     see incoming icons on the screen, and the ability to send and receive
                      >     messages on screen, then you've probably got the right package.
                      >
                      >     If you want to be able to limit the incoming display to just a single
                      >     specific station, or group of stations, and to be able to see the
                      >     altitude of a specific station on screen, then you probably don't have
                      >     the right package.
                      >
                      >     Ham radio is a niche market. APRS is a niche market in the ham radio
                      >     niche market. HAB tracking is a niche market in the APRS niche market
                      >     of the ham radio niche market. Most manufacturers aim to position
                      >     their products to hit the largest market possible. The fact that AvMap
                      >     is producing a product that supports APRS is amazing, and then they
                      >     also have features that cater to the HAB niche is even more amazing.
                      >
                      >     You can't sit in a rowboat in the middle of a corn field in Nebraska
                      >     and wonder why you're not flying to London. Sometimes you need
                      >     specialized equipment to perform a specialized task. :)
                      >
                      >     As Brian suggested, perhaps using a unique frequency would give you
                      >     the ability to limit the stations heard. Hopefully you are aware that
                      >     once your payload is aloft, there is no need to run an outgoing path.
                      >     With the payload over 1000' AGL, asking for digipeats is a waste of
                      >     time. Your payload will transmit much further than any ground based
                      >     digipeater around. Moving to a frequency with no digipeaters available
                      >     does not affect your ability to track. You can have ground based
                      >     stations switch to the unique frequency and i-gate your packets so
                      >     they appear on the APRS-IS stream.
                      >
                      >     Many HAB groups run paths at altitude, which just causes all kinds of
                      >     unnecessary noise on the ground. Dozens to hundreds of digipeaters end
                      >     up repeating packets that are easily copied by every station on the
                      >     ground already. Even worse people run with WIDE1-1 as a path request,
                      >     causing not only every digipeater to act upon the packet, but every
                      >     home fill-in digipeater as well.
                      >
                      >     If you are running a quality HAB APRS tracking payload, you'll have
                      >     the ability to change paths based on profile switching. Set up your
                      >     profile switching to use no path on one profile, and then once the
                      >     payload has dropped below something like 5000 feet, add an outgoing
                      >     path to ask for help from the digipeaters. If you land somewhere a
                      >     long distance from an i-gate, and your chase teams have managed to not
                      >     keep up with the payload, a digipeat *might* help you get closer.
                      >
                      >     Many people feel that if the payload can't be heard on the ground via
                      >     the APRS-IS stream, that there's no possible way of recovering the
                      >     payload. That is not the case. We've had payloads stop being gated at
                      >     20,000 feet AGL and still been able to find them on the ground. You
                      >     simply extrapolate the flight path based on the winds seen on the way
                      >     up and go to the projected area. If need be set up a search grid and
                      >     search until you can hear your payload.
                      >
                      >     If you have a frequency agile payload, you can have the unit switch
                      >     back and forth between your unique frequency and 144.390, and get the
                      >     best of both worlds.
                      >
                      >     --
                      >     James
                      >     VE6SRV
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --
                      > Matthew
                      > VK5ZM
                      > 0487 653 245
                      >
                      >


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                      VK5ZM
                      0487 653 245
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