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Re: [tracker2] Re: OT USB Telemetry

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  • James Ewen
    On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 9:03 PM, Lynn W. Deffenbaugh (Mr) ... And that one is the sweetest way to do telemetry... high resolution, adaptable to the number of
    Message 1 of 20 , Feb 7, 2013
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      On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 9:03 PM, Lynn W. Deffenbaugh (Mr)
      <ldeffenb@...> wrote:

      > Were you aware of the Base91 telemetry extension described at:
      >
      > http://he.fi/doc/aprs-base91-comment-telemetry.txt
      >
      > It allows telemetry data to appear in a posit comment and allows values
      > from 0..8280 (13 bits per sample). It still has sequence in there, but
      > you don't have to provide all 5 values unless you want to include the 8
      > binary bits which come at the end.

      And that one is the sweetest way to do telemetry... high resolution,
      adaptable to the number of values to be represented, and squeezed down
      tighter than concentrated orange juice from Florida!

      --
      James
      VE6SRV
    • Scott Miller
      I mean I came up with a more flexible format for telemetry, and I m trying to talk Hessu into supporting it. If aprs.fi can handle it, that s what most of my
      Message 2 of 20 , Feb 7, 2013
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        I mean I came up with a more flexible format for telemetry, and I'm
        trying to talk Hessu into supporting it. If aprs.fi can handle it,
        that's what most of my users need and other clients would probably
        follow suit.

        My proposed format is variable-length, more efficient, and lets you
        specify profiles for metadata - either a standard pre-defined profile
        (e.g., T3 profile with 1 temperature, 1 count, and 5 voltage readings)
        or a profile you'd create yourself on the site. Because from what I've
        seen, most folks don't need equations and labels on the air, they just
        want the data presented nicely online.

        Scott

        On 2/7/2013 7:59 PM, James Ewen wrote:
        > On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 8:48 PM, Scott Miller scott@...
        > <mailto:scott%40opentrac.org>> wrote:
        >
        > > I'm still hoping to convince Hessu to implement a more flexible
        > > telemetry format. I've got one designed. Might just have to implement
        > > it myself and see if it gets any traction.
        >
        > In what way? The APRS telemetry format is defined in the APRS
        > protocol, not by Hessu. We have tried to get Hessu to support a new
        > RANGE statement back in December of 2011. It does not require any
        > changes to the APRS protocol as it is simply an APRS message. It would
        > however need to be interpreted by aprs.fi, or any other APRS program
        > that displayed telemetry data graphically.
        >
        > ******************
        >
        > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
        > From: James Ewen ve6srv@... <mailto:ve6srv%40gmail.com>>
        > Date: Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 12:21 PM
        > Subject: [aprsfi] Graphing Limits (was Any way to delete telemetry data?)
        > To: "aprsfi@... <mailto:aprsfi%40googlegroups.com>"
        > aprsfi@... <mailto:aprsfi%40googlegroups.com>>
        > Cc: "WB4APR@... <mailto:WB4APR%40amsat.org>" WB4APR@...
        > <mailto:WB4APR%40amsat.org>>
        >
        > On Wednesday, December 28, 2011, Russ Crisp rcrisp@...
        > <mailto:rcrisp%40gmail.com>> wrote:
        >
        > > Is there a way to delete data stored on aprs.fi? I'm asking about
        > telemetry data,
        > > but this could extend to other types.. I disconnected a sensor, and
        > the resulting
        > > odd value that was sent briefly really skews off the charts..
        >
        > Are you looking to just remove a brief "blip" of data from the
        > database, or mask out a telemetry channel completely?
        >
        > Masking random values on an unassigned telemetry channel is easy by
        > just defining the equation with all zeroes. I'm guessing however that
        > you want to remove or edit out a section of data where your indoor and
        > outdoor temperature values went to 0 (scaled to -100° F).
        >
        > http://aprs.fi/telemetry/?call=K4RCC-6&date_start=2011-12-27+16%3A00%3A00&date_end=2011-12-28+00%3A00%3A00
        >
        > Removal of the "out of range" data would require deletion of the full
        > telemetry strings from the aprs.fi database, or modification of the
        > values stored in the telemetry strings to a "normalized" value. I do
        > not believe Hessu provides any access to this type of database
        > manipulation. Providing access to the database in such a manner is
        > fraught with peril as well. It is better to simply leave the database
        > as a historical record of what was heard rather than trying to
        > sanitize the data to meet our desires.
        >
        > A better way to "correct" this issue would be to create an APRS
        > telemetry definition extension that provides hard graph limits for the
        > telemetry value. Hessu's graphing routines auto-scale the graphs to
        > fit the available data.
        >
        > With an APRS graph range definition, one could conceivably set manual
        > limits on the graphs, and if data were to range outside those limits,
        > the resultant graph would simpy go off scale.
        >
        > Current APRS telemetry definitions are as follows:
        >
        > PARM.P1,P2,P3,P4,P5,B1,B2,B3,etc Where Pn and Bn are the parameter names
        >
        > UNIT.U1,U2,U3,U4,U5,L1,L2,L3,etc Where Un are the units for analog
        > ports and Ln are the labels for the bits
        >
        > EQNS.A1,B1,C1,A2,B2,C2,A3,B3,C3,etc Where the An,Bn,Cn are the
        > coeficients for each of the five analog channels,
        >
        > BITS.XXXXXXXX,Title-up-to-23-chars The x's specify the state of the
        > bits that match the BIT Labels.
        >
        > T#sss,111,222,333,444,555,xxxxxxxx This is the on-air format for the
        > UI packet, where sss is the serial number followed by the five 3 digit
        > analog values and the eight binary values.
        >
        > By adding one more definition statement, one could conceivably define
        > the limits of each graph. Only the analog values would need to be
        > defined as the bit states can only have but two values.
        >
        > RNGE.L1,U1,L2,U2,L3,U3,L4,U4,L5,U5 Where Ln and Un are the lower and
        > upper graph limits respectively. A null value in any parameter
        > location would be interpreted as an auto-ranging request.
        >
        > It would be then possible to have fully auto-ranging graphs (as we see
        > now at aprs.fi), graphs with set minimum and maximum values defined by
        > the user, or a hybrid where one of the range limits are defined and
        > the other is auto-ranging.
        >
        > The addition of this fifth definition statement would not affect the
        > current operation of any client or website, and would be ignored
        > unless the client or website actively looked for and implemented the
        > graph range limits.
        >
        > I have found myself wishing for a function such as this for quite some
        > time. Looking at the graphs over a long period where there's an
        > anomaly such as you are seeing can make it difficult to visualize the
        > rest of the "normal" data. Looking at a short time period graph can be
        > just the opposite where the auto ranging feature can show you too much
        > detail. On my battery voltage graphs, I'd like to have the graph
        > showing 0-15 volts at all times. I don't care too much about the 1/10
        > of a volt fluctuations, but rather would like to see the general
        > voltage across that range. If the graph is in the upper part of the
        > range, I know that my battery state is probably acceptable.
        >
        > Thinking along these lines further, it might be nice to also have the
        > ability to select how the data is presented in the graphs. It would be
        > interesting to able to select RAW, SCALED, and RANGED data in the
        > graphs. RAW would graph the raw data (0-255), SCALED would use the
        > EQNS definition to present the data as it is seen now at aprs.fi, and
        > RANGED would implement the RNGE definition and set the minimum and
        > maximum axis values as per the new definition.
        >
        > This would allow one to see the raw data if desired to be able to
        > assist in fault finding with their telemetry capture or definitions,
        > as well as to see all the scaled data after being adjusted according
        > to the EQNS definition, and finally the range limited graphs with
        > minimum and maximum limits as defined with the RNGE definition.
        >
        > It's sure easy to sit here in my nice comfy chair and dream up more
        > work for others!
        >
        > --
        > James
        > VE6SRV
        >
        >
      • Scott Miller
        I think it was in an earlier stage when I saw it last. I ll look it over. Scott
        Message 3 of 20 , Feb 7, 2013
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          I think it was in an earlier stage when I saw it last. I'll look it over.

          Scott

          On 2/7/2013 8:03 PM, Lynn W. Deffenbaugh (Mr) wrote:
          > Were you aware of the Base91 telemetry extension described at:
          >
          > http://he.fi/doc/aprs-base91-comment-telemetry.txt
          >
          > It allows telemetry data to appear in a posit comment and allows values
          > from 0..8280 (13 bits per sample). It still has sequence in there, but
          > you don't have to provide all 5 values unless you want to include the 8
          > binary bits which come at the end.
          >
          > Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32
          >
          > On 2/7/2013 10:48 PM, Scott Miller wrote:
          >> And this is why it'll be a user-configurable option. With warnings. =]
          >>
          >> I'm still hoping to convince Hessu to implement a more flexible
          >> telemetry format. I've got one designed. Might just have to implement
          >> it myself and see if it gets any traction.
          >>
          >> Scott
          >>
          >> On 2/7/2013 7:15 PM, Lynn W. Deffenbaugh (Mr) wrote:
          >>> Be aware that Pete, AE5PL and author of javAPRSSrvr which powers many of
          >>> the APRS-IS servers, is on record that his filter implementation in the
          >>> new 4.x release requires strict adherence to the original aprs101.pdf
          >>> definition of 0..127 for telemetry values. A t/t (type telemetry)
          >>> filter will NOT pass a telemetry packet with any data value outside this
          >>> range. The only way such a packet would be received is if it is passed
          >>> by some other filter element (like range or buddy or some-such).
          >>>
          >>> Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32
          >>>
          >>> On 2/7/2013 9:49 PM, Scott Miller wrote:
          >>>> I remember discussing it with Bob years ago. I'll put it on my list to
          >>>> add as an option.
          >>>>
          >>>> Scott
          >>>>
          >>>> On 2/7/2013 5:23 PM, James Ewen wrote:
          >>>>> On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Scott Miller scott@...
          >>>>> <mailto:scott%40opentrac.org>> wrote:
          >>>>>
          >>>>> > As for the resolution, the ADC can do 12 bits, and the telemetry fields
          >>>>> > could represent 000-999, though that's not in the original spec. I
          >>>>> > might make that an option, to scale the 12-bit samples to fit that range.
          >>>>>
          >>>>> There is precedence for the nearly 10 bit resolution... the TinyTrak
          >>>>> line does high resolution telemetry.
          >>>>>
          >>>>> We asked about it on the APRSISCE/32 forum and got a response from Bob.
          >>>>>
          >>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aprsisce/message/19073
          >>>>>
          >>>>> Searching the suggested files didn't turn up anything, but that
          >>>>> doesn't stop people from playing. Documentation in the APRS world
          >>>>> seems to lag just a bit.
          >>>>>
          >>>>> --
          >>>>> James
          >>>>> VE6SRV
          >>>>>
          >>>>>
          >>>> ------------------------------------
          >>>>
          >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>> ------------------------------------
          >>>
          >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>
          >> ------------------------------------
          >>
          >> Yahoo! Groups Links
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
        • Matthew Cook
          Scott, I ve sent a few of those packets to the APRS-IS servers, they did appear to go through to aprs.fi... There was a little sillyness until I resent a
          Message 4 of 20 , Feb 7, 2013
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            Scott,

            I've sent a few of those packets to the APRS-IS servers, they did appear to go through to aprs.fi...   There was a little sillyness until I resent a PARM packet manually with new scaling factors etc...  it doesn't fix all of the problems with telemetry but the additional range is nice.. especially for measureing battery voltage in millivolts.... 

            We should be flying new APRS trackers in our next HAB launch later this month (or early next month) with this new compressed base-91 telemetry code in it.

            73's

            Matthew
            VK5ZM

            On 8 February 2013 14:41, Scott Miller <scott@...> wrote:
            I think it was in an earlier stage when I saw it last.  I'll look it over.

            Scott

            On 2/7/2013 8:03 PM, Lynn W. Deffenbaugh (Mr) wrote:
            > Were you aware of the Base91 telemetry extension described at:
            >
            > http://he.fi/doc/aprs-base91-comment-telemetry.txt
            >
            > It allows telemetry data to appear in a posit comment and allows values
            > from 0..8280 (13 bits per sample).  It still has sequence in there, but
            > you don't have to provide all 5 values unless you want to include the 8
            > binary bits which come at the end.
            >
            > Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32
            >
            > On 2/7/2013 10:48 PM, Scott Miller wrote:
            >> And this is why it'll be a user-configurable option.  With warnings.  =]
            >>
            >> I'm still hoping to convince Hessu to implement a more flexible
            >> telemetry format.  I've got one designed.  Might just have to implement
            >> it myself and see if it gets any traction.
            >>
            >> Scott
            >>
            >> On 2/7/2013 7:15 PM, Lynn W. Deffenbaugh (Mr) wrote:
            >>> Be aware that Pete, AE5PL and author of javAPRSSrvr which powers many of
            >>> the APRS-IS servers, is on record that his filter implementation in the
            >>> new 4.x release requires strict adherence to the original aprs101.pdf
            >>> definition of 0..127 for telemetry values.  A t/t (type telemetry)
            >>> filter will NOT pass a telemetry packet with any data value outside this
            >>> range.  The only way such a packet would be received is if it is passed
            >>> by some other filter element (like range or buddy or some-such).
            >>>
            >>> Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32
            >>>
            >>> On 2/7/2013 9:49 PM, Scott Miller wrote:
            >>>> I remember discussing it with Bob years ago.  I'll put it on my list to
            >>>> add as an option.
            >>>>
            >>>> Scott
            >>>>
            >>>> On 2/7/2013 5:23 PM, James Ewen wrote:
            >>>>> On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Scott Miller scott@...
            >>>>> <mailto:scott%40opentrac.org>> wrote:
            >>>>>
            >>>>>    > As for the resolution, the ADC can do 12 bits, and the telemetry fields
            >>>>>    > could represent 000-999, though that's not in the original spec. I
            >>>>>    > might make that an option, to scale the 12-bit samples to fit that range.
            >>>>>
            >>>>> There is precedence for the nearly 10 bit resolution... the TinyTrak
            >>>>> line does high resolution telemetry.
            >>>>>
            >>>>> We asked about it on the APRSISCE/32 forum and got a response from Bob.
            >>>>>
            >>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aprsisce/message/19073
            >>>>>
            >>>>> Searching the suggested files didn't turn up anything, but that
            >>>>> doesn't stop people from playing. Documentation in the APRS world
            >>>>> seems to lag just a bit.
            >>>>>
            >>>>> --
            >>>>> James
            >>>>> VE6SRV
            >>>>>
            >>>>>
            >>>> ------------------------------------
            >>>>
            >>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
            >>>>
            >>>>
            >>>>
            >>>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>> ------------------------------------
            >>>
            >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>
            >> ------------------------------------
            >>
            >> Yahoo! Groups Links
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >


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            --
            Matthew
            VK5ZM
            0487 653 245
          • James Ewen
            ... The base-91 has the variable length concept... The metadata sounds like the existing parameter definitions just with a different coat of paint. Sounds like
            Message 5 of 20 , Feb 7, 2013
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              On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 9:10 PM, Scott Miller <scott@...> wrote:

              > My proposed format is variable-length, more efficient, and lets you
              > specify profiles for metadata - either a standard pre-defined profile
              > (e.g., T3 profile with 1 temperature, 1 count, and 5 voltage readings)
              > or a profile you'd create yourself on the site. Because from what I've
              > seen, most folks don't need equations and labels on the air, they just
              > want the data presented nicely online.

              The base-91 has the variable length concept...

              The metadata sounds like the existing parameter definitions just with
              a different coat of paint. Sounds like you are advocating defining the
              metadata directly on aprs.fi via the web interface. You define the
              metadata currently via APRS with a few APRS messages sent to the
              specific callsign. Do that once every few years to keep aprs.fi up to
              date and you're there.

              I'm game to hear different though... what about defining it on the
              wiki where it can be discussed and documented rather than just in an
              email? It's kind of out of the scope of what the reflector is about.

              --
              James
              VE6SRV
            • Scott Miller
              I wrote up a sheet about it some time back. If I can figure out where I put it, I ll post it to the wiki. Scott
              Message 6 of 20 , Feb 8, 2013
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                I wrote up a sheet about it some time back. If I can figure out where I
                put it, I'll post it to the wiki.

                Scott


                On 2/7/2013 10:32 PM, James Ewen wrote:
                > On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 9:10 PM, Scott Miller scott@...
                > <mailto:scott%40opentrac.org>> wrote:
                >
                > > My proposed format is variable-length, more efficient, and lets you
                > > specify profiles for metadata - either a standard pre-defined profile
                > > (e.g., T3 profile with 1 temperature, 1 count, and 5 voltage readings)
                > > or a profile you'd create yourself on the site. Because from what I've
                > > seen, most folks don't need equations and labels on the air, they just
                > > want the data presented nicely online.
                >
                > The base-91 has the variable length concept...
                >
                > The metadata sounds like the existing parameter definitions just with
                > a different coat of paint. Sounds like you are advocating defining the
                > metadata directly on aprs.fi via the web interface. You define the
                > metadata currently via APRS with a few APRS messages sent to the
                > specific callsign. Do that once every few years to keep aprs.fi up to
                > date and you're there.
                >
                > I'm game to hear different though... what about defining it on the
                > wiki where it can be discussed and documented rather than just in an
                > email? It's kind of out of the scope of what the reflector is about.
                >
                > --
                > James
                > VE6SRV
                >
                >
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