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Re: [tracker2] Re: new to this stuff...

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  • James Ewen
    On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 2:04 PM, Andrew Wawrzynowicz ... Are you planning on serving webpages on RF? You do know that you can t create a static image on RF that
    Message 1 of 16 , May 2, 2012
      On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 2:04 PM, Andrew Wawrzynowicz
      <mechcondrid@...> wrote:

      > ok is there a better way to do a camera on the station (i.e. something
      > like this) where it takes a picture and makes an image file that is static
      > until it updates like say every 3-5 mins

      Are you planning on serving webpages on RF? You do know that you can't
      create a static image on RF that sits there for people to look at,
      right? If you save the image locally, remote users would need some
      manner of requesting the image be sent to them from your station.
      That's also not good for the channel having people requesting a long
      transmission when an automated one may have just finished, but they
      missed it due to not being tuned into the channel.

      It would probably be best to do this type of thing off of the 144.390
      channel as SSTV pictures can take a fair amount of airtime to deliver.
      You could send APRS weather packets and then an SSTV image out over
      the air on the dedicated frequency. Users tuning to the frequency
      would need to have a station capable of decoding and displaying APRS
      data, and also of decoding and displaying SSTV signals from the same
      source.

      A user wanting to see the weather at your station would need to tune
      to the frequency and wait for the next "weather report". Personally I
      would just look out the window and get an instant weather report, but
      then that's me, low tech and impatient. I'm not all that interested in
      a 2 degree temperature difference and a slightly different perspective
      on the clouds floating by from a station a mile or two away..

      --
      James
      VE6SRV
    • Andrew Wawrzynowicz
      no im not hosting a webpage or even a memory space i am working on a backend server that will grab the picture data that it transmits and stores it on the
      Message 2 of 16 , May 3, 2012
        no im not hosting a webpage or even a memory space

        i am working on a backend server that will grab the picture data that it
        transmits and stores it on the server for a webpage to grab or link to, im just trying to figure out how to direct the packet data to the server (and find a sstv camera that doesnt convert it to audio itself)

        and i was looking at the quick easy to transmit sstv modes i forget the name but its grayscale or b&w and takes 6-12 secs to transmit a frame and it would be doing this only at automatic intervals not upon request (say every 5 or so mins or longer if need be)
      • Matthew Cook
        You might want to look at what some of the HAB guys in the UK are doing. They call it SSDV. They capture images from a CMOS camera and then transmit it via
        Message 3 of 16 , May 3, 2012
          You might want to look at what some of the HAB guys in the UK are doing.  They call it SSDV.  They capture images from a CMOS camera and then transmit it via AX25 UI frames to listening ground stations.  The ground stations then relay this information onto the net for reassembly by a webserver.  That way corrupted packets can be dropped if there are multiple users.

          https://github.com/fsphil/ssdv

          73's

          Matthew
          VK5ZM

          On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 7:26 AM, Andrew Wawrzynowicz <mechcondrid@...> wrote:
           

          no im not hosting a webpage or even a memory space

          i am working on a backend server that will grab the picture data that it
          transmits and stores it on the server for a webpage to grab or link to, im just trying to figure out how to direct the packet data to the server (and find a sstv camera that doesnt convert it to audio itself)

          and i was looking at the quick easy to transmit sstv modes i forget the name but its grayscale or b&w and takes 6-12 secs to transmit a frame and it would be doing this only at automatic intervals not upon request (say every 5 or so mins or longer if need be)


        • James Ewen
          On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 3:56 PM, Andrew Wawrzynowicz ... Okay, where will the image be stored? ... Aha, look a server and webpage... ... Well, it would be sent
          Message 4 of 16 , May 4, 2012
            On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 3:56 PM, Andrew Wawrzynowicz
            <mechcondrid@...> wrote:

            > no im not hosting a webpage or even a memory space

            Okay, where will the image be stored?

            > i am working on a backend server that will grab the picture data that it
            > transmits and stores it on the server for a webpage to grab or link to,

            Aha, look a server and webpage...

            > im just trying to figure out how to direct the packet data to the server

            Well, it would be sent from the originating station over the air to a
            receiving station, and that receiving station would be connected to
            the server most likely via ethernet. This is identical to the i-gate
            functionality.

            > (and find a sstv camera that doesnt convert it to audio itself)

            Well, by definition an SSTV camera should be a camera that creates an
            SSTV signal (which would be audio to be applied to a radio, or which
            includes the radio. The VC-H1 from Kenwood is an SSTV camera.) How
            about just a plain old camera that captures images. That image would
            need to be applied to the SSTV encoder which would create the audio to
            be applied to a radio.

            > and i was looking at the quick easy to transmit sstv modes i forget
            > the name but its grayscale or b&w and takes 6-12 secs to transmit
            > a frame and it would be doing this only at automatic intervals not
            > upon request (say every 5 or so mins or longer if need be)

            So the users on air would still need to be listening to the frequency
            when the SSTV signal is sent with specific software or hardware that
            can capture and decode the signal. Users connected to the internet
            would be able to bring a webpage on a server that would retain an
            archived image that would be available for viewing on demand.

            If you were to create a program that combined APRS and SSTV into a
            single application, and that application retained the SSTV images in
            memory, then a user could pull up information for the station which
            included a locally stored copy of the latest image from that station.

            I don't know of any APRS applications that would store an SSTV image,
            nor do I know of any SSTV programs that include APRS functionality.
            They may be out there, anyone know of one? If not, then there's a
            niche market for you!

            --
            James
            VE6SRV
          • Lynn W. Deffenbaugh (Mr)
            ... Three letters: AVS: http://wa8lmf.net/bruninga/vision.html I really want the specs to this as I d love to incorporate it into APRSISCE, the mobile version,
            Message 5 of 16 , May 4, 2012
              On 5/4/2012 10:24 AM, James Ewen wrote:
              > I don't know of any APRS applications that would store an SSTV image,
              > nor do I know of any SSTV programs that include APRS functionality.
              > They may be out there, anyone know of one? If not, then there's a
              > niche market for you!

              Three letters: AVS: http://wa8lmf.net/bruninga/vision.html

              I really want the specs to this as I'd love to incorporate it into
              APRSISCE, the mobile version, to grab a picture from the camera, encoded
              it and braap it over APRS where any other instance can capture it
              realtime and a server-side instance can put all of them on a browsable
              web page for historical reasons.

              Picture the first responder capability of getting pictures out when the
              cellular networks are still down.

              But I think we're getting pretty far off the Tracker2 topic now...

              Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32
            • James Ewen
              On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 8:42 AM, Lynn W. Deffenbaugh (Mr) ... That s not really an application, but rather a conceptualization of an idea.It s also kind of an
              Message 6 of 16 , May 4, 2012
                On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 8:42 AM, Lynn W. Deffenbaugh (Mr)
                <ldeffenb@...> wrote:
                > On 5/4/2012 10:24 AM, James Ewen wrote:
                >> I don't know of any APRS applications that would store an SSTV image,
                >> nor do I know of any SSTV programs that include APRS functionality.
                >> They may be out there, anyone know of one? If not, then there's a
                >> niche market for you!
                >
                > Three letters: AVS: http://wa8lmf.net/bruninga/vision.html

                That's not really an application, but rather a conceptualization of an
                idea.It's also kind of an offshoot from SSTV as it uses a totally new
                method of sending the images, using digitally encoded data transported
                over APRS UI frames.

                > I really want the specs to this as I'd love to incorporate it into
                > APRSISCE, the mobile version, to grab a picture from the camera, encoded
                > it and braap it over APRS where any other instance can capture it
                > realtime and a server-side instance can put all of them on a browsable
                > web page for historical reasons.

                I figured you would be interested in this type of situation. AVS has
                advantages over the SSTV concept because the AVS packets can be
                relayed via a digipeater whereas the SSTV signals would be limited to
                simplex range unless being bounced through an audio repeater.

                > Picture the first responder capability of getting pictures out when the
                > cellular networks are still down.

                It has some interesting uses, but there are also many limitations.
                That doesn't mean that one can't play with this type of stuff...
                that's what amateur radio is all about.

                It may sound like I'm working hard to try and keep this type of system
                from being implemented. Far from that, I'm just playing Devil's
                Advocate, and pointing out possible issues that can be stumbling
                blocks. It's easier to bash ideas around and try and ensure that you
                are headed down the right path before starting to put real world
                things together, whether that's software or hardware.

                > But I think we're getting pretty far off the Tracker2 topic now...

                Yeah, but it's still fun... maybe Scott will make some special hardware.

                --
                James
                VE6SRV
              • Scott Miller
                ... It s on my list. The cameras used by the SSTVCAM can capture JPEG images. I was planning to try running those through the high-speed 433 MHz transceivers
                Message 7 of 16 , May 4, 2012
                  > Yeah, but it's still fun... maybe Scott will make some special hardware.

                  It's on my list. The cameras used by the SSTVCAM can capture JPEG
                  images. I was planning to try running those through the high-speed 433
                  MHz transceivers I've got. It's hard to beat SSTV for noise immunity,
                  though, particularly when you don't have the ability to request retries.

                  Scott
                • Tom Hayward
                  On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 3:56 PM, Andrew Wawrzynowicz wrote: ... ... How did you decide on SSTV? What is the distance and terrain between
                  Message 8 of 16 , May 4, 2012
                    On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 3:56 PM, Andrew Wawrzynowicz
                    <mechcondrid@...> wrote:
                    ...
                    > i am working on a backend server that will grab the picture data that it
                    > transmits and stores it on the server for a webpage to grab or link to, im
                    > just trying to figure out how to direct the packet data to the server (and
                    > find a sstv camera that doesnt convert it to audio itself)
                    ...


                    How did you decide on SSTV? What is the distance and terrain between
                    the camera and server? If feasible, I would try to tackle this with
                    900 MHz WiFi. The difference in quality would be phenomenal, if you
                    can pull it off.

                    I'm a sucker for Ubiquiti products, so I'd probably attempt it with
                    this set of equipment:
                    http://www.ubnt.com/airvision
                    http://dl.ubnt.com/datasheets/nanobridgem/nbm_ds_web.pdf

                    Apologies for being off-topic. I'd still use the Argent Data gear for
                    the weather station and reporting :-)


                    Tom KD7LXL
                  • Andrew Wawrzynowicz
                    ok i just thought sstv was the best option in terms of over the air cameras but if there s a way to just send a compressed jpeg via ax.25 then that would fit
                    Message 9 of 16 , May 4, 2012

                      ok i just thought sstv was the best option in terms of over the air cameras

                      but if there's a way to just send a compressed jpeg via ax.25 then that would fit my purposes like a glove

                      and the closest igate isnt that faraway only a few miles from where im going to set up the station (less than 8 miles)

                      and as for wifi i wasnt aware that it was available in a 900mhz flavor my friend is the one who has the igate setup soi might be able to do that, whats the range on a 900mhz transmitter? say 5-10 watts?

                       

                       

                    • Tom Hayward
                      On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 1:46 PM, Andrew Wawrzynowicz wrote: ... 900 MHz range is going to depend on terrain. If you can see the igate
                      Message 10 of 16 , May 4, 2012
                        On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 1:46 PM, Andrew Wawrzynowicz
                        <mechcondrid@...> wrote:
                        ...
                        > and as for wifi i wasnt aware that it was available in a 900mhz flavor my
                        > friend is the one who has the igate setup soi might be able to do that,
                        > whats the range on a 900mhz transmitter? say 5-10 watts?

                        900 MHz range is going to depend on terrain. If you can see the igate
                        from your weather station location, it should work. If you can almost
                        see it, it might work. If there are significant obstructions between
                        them, it likely won't work.

                        To figure out what you're dealing with, I would model the propagation
                        path in software such as Radio Mobile. Here's a link to a Radio Mobile
                        tutorial:
                        http://www.pizon.org/radio-mobile-tutorial/index.html

                        If you send me coordinates and antenna heights for both locations, I
                        could do this pretty quickly for you. The setup and learning curve for
                        Radio Mobile is a bit steep.


                        Tom KD7LXL
                      • Tom Hayward
                        ... One more thing... Another ethernet option is two Icom ID-1 rigs for a 128 Kbps 1.2 GHz link, but that will be expensive. If you find you need to stick with
                        Message 11 of 16 , May 4, 2012
                          On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 4:13 PM, Tom Hayward <tom@...> wrote:
                          > On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 1:46 PM, Andrew Wawrzynowicz
                          > <mechcondrid@...> wrote:
                          > ...
                          >> and as for wifi i wasnt aware that it was available in a 900mhz flavor my
                          >> friend is the one who has the igate setup soi might be able to do that,
                          >> whats the range on a 900mhz transmitter? say 5-10 watts?
                          >
                          > 900 MHz range is going to depend on terrain. If you can see the igate
                          > from your weather station location, it should work. If you can almost
                          > see it, it might work. If there are significant obstructions between
                          > them, it likely won't work.

                          One more thing...

                          Another ethernet option is two Icom ID-1 rigs for a 128 Kbps 1.2 GHz
                          link, but that will be expensive.

                          If you find you need to stick with VHF for propagation, I really like
                          the sound of the JPEG over UI frame idea, assuming you can get it
                          working with Argent gear.

                          Tom KD7LXL
                        • James Ewen
                          On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 1:46 PM, Andrew Wawrzynowicz ... SSTV works, you might want to read up on it and what it is, then try playing with it to see if it
                          Message 12 of 16 , May 4, 2012
                            On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 1:46 PM, Andrew Wawrzynowicz
                            <mechcondrid@...> wrote:

                            > ok i just thought sstv was the best option in terms of over the air
                            > cameras

                            SSTV works, you might want to read up on it and what it is, then try
                            playing with it to see if it really fits what you want to do.

                            > but if there's a way to just send a compressed jpeg via ax.25 then that
                            > would fit my purposes like a glove

                            Only if you are willing to send extremely low resolution images...
                            there's not a lot of bandwidth available. If you read up on Bob's
                            concept, it was talking about 4 minutes to send an image, and that's
                            128X256 resolution, and via simplex, no digipeaters.

                            > and the closest igate isnt that faraway only a few miles from where im
                            > going to set up the station (less than 8 miles)
                            >
                            > and as for wifi i wasnt aware that it was available in a 900mhz flavor my
                            > friend is the one who has the igate setup soi might be able to do that,
                            > whats the range on a 900mhz transmitter? say 5-10 watts?

                            Hundreds of thousands of miles given a clean line of sight and big
                            enough antennas...

                            What's your end use? There are people doing something similar where
                            they have a weather station at a hang gliding site, and also have a
                            camera set up so that they can also have a look see to see if what the
                            weather station is telling them jibes with what they see.

                            --
                            James
                            VE6SRV
                          • Ramon Gandia
                            ... Back when I was a rural ISP here in Nome, Alaska, I got a *lot* of experience using 900 mHz. The equipment was from FreeWave. The little box had serial
                            Message 13 of 16 , May 5, 2012
                              > >> whats the range on a 900mhz transmitter? say 5-10 watts?
                              > >
                              > > 900 MHz range is going to depend on terrain. If you can see the igate
                              > > from your weather station location ...

                              Back when I was a rural ISP here in Nome, Alaska, I got a *lot*
                              of experience using 900 mHz.

                              The equipment was from FreeWave. The little box had serial port
                              and about half a watt on unlicensed 900 mHz. Could use the built
                              in 3 inch whip, or an external antenna. Spread spectrum. Their new
                              stuff also has ethernet.

                              As hams, we can use the stuff with power amps as we are allowed 1.5 kw
                              on the band ...

                              Anyway, I had no problem connecting 20 to 30 miles on rolling hills.
                              It is best line of sight, but if the terrain is not too obstructed,
                              it will work fine.

                              I had a link from Skookum to Nome, about 50 miles, with 10 db yagis
                              at each end. It was very important to get the antennas up HIGH
                              off the ground. Dramatic difference between 20 ft and 50 ft.

                              Another 50 mile link used a vertical at the mountain, and a 24 db
                              parabolic here in Nome.

                              Neither one of those links was quite line of sight. With a 60X
                              spotting scope we could make out the Nome environments from the
                              mountain, but then a hill obscured the view. Regardless, it worked,
                              and worked very, very well.

                              In any case, the freewaves can be configured as end station, repeater
                              or one-to-many. Very flexible.

                              I have a lot of respect for FreeWave, 900 mHz and Spread Spectrum!
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