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Re: [tracker2] Digi Question

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  • Keith VE7GDH
    James VE6SRV wrote... ... No, I m not being nasty. I m making an observation about a path being used by a digipeater. Yes, this is the T2 list, but not
    Message 1 of 24 , Mar 11, 2012
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      James VE6SRV wrote...

      > C'mon Keith... you're being nasty now... he only asked about the
      > digipeat aliases... 8)

      No, I'm not being nasty. I'm making an observation about a path
      being used by a digipeater. Yes, this is the T2 list, but not
      everyone is on every APRS list out there. I believe that using a
      non-abusive path is important enough to mention it on this list,
      even if you think I'm being nasty.

      > 3 hops is a little on the long side for sure.
      >
      > WD5MHZ>APU25N,GAYLOR*,K5CS-12*,WIDE3-1,qAR,KA5MGL
      :;442.425-R*030027z3458.72N/09419.35Wm442.425 +

      I completely missed that it was a repeater object, but had I
      noticed it, I would have been nasty about that one too. 8-)

      I don't have a D72, but I have had the use of a club-owned one for
      the last week and a half. Having had a chance to play around with
      it, I would actually disagree with the "voice repeater spec". I
      believe it is wrong to use the frequency for the name of the
      object. I would instead use the callsign of the repeater followed
      by -R to indicate at a glance at the station list that it's a
      repeater. Going on and using the "tune" button, it is imperative
      that the frequency is followed by MHz... e.g. 442.425MHz (case
      sensitive) followed by T136 for the tone and + for the offset, so
      my recommendation would be KA5MGL-R for the name of the
      object. I've played with repeater objects generated by a KPC3+,
      beacons from UI-View, from a script running on an IRLP node
      (local club meeting announcements) and an APRS IRLP status
      object, and my conclusion was the same in every case. I felt it
      was actually better to have the callsign for the object name
      instead of the frequency, or of course in the case of an IRLP
      node, IRLP-xxxx with the node number highly visible in the
      station list.

      Yes, I should be saying this over on the APRS SIG, but there
      are lots of T2s out there being used for digipeaters, so this
      should be useful information for those adding repeater objects.

      73 es cul - Keith VE7GDH
      --
      "I may be lost, but I know exactly where I am!"
    • James Ewen
      ... Sure you are... just like I am! ... Yeah, but that wasn t asked for. You know how it happens... getting labeled as mean and nasty, trying to dictate to
      Message 2 of 24 , Mar 11, 2012
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        On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 1:42 PM, Keith VE7GDH <ve7gdh@...> wrote:

        > > C'mon Keith... you're being nasty now...
        >
        > No, I'm not being nasty.

        Sure you are... just like I am!

        > I'm making an observation about a path
        > being used by a digipeater.

        Yeah, but that wasn't asked for. You know how it happens... getting
        labeled as mean and nasty, trying to dictate to others how they should
        run their equipment. (BTW, I am playing a bit of the Devil's advocate
        here as I fully agree with Keith's statements up until now)


        > > WD5MHZ>APU25N,GAYLOR*,K5CS-12*,WIDE3-1,qAR,KA5MGL
        > :;442.425-R*030027z3458.72N/09419.35Wm442.425 +
        >
        > I completely missed that it was a repeater object, but had I
        > noticed it, I would have been nasty about that one too. 8-)
        >
        > I don't have a D72, but I have had the use of a club-owned one for
        > the last week and a half. Having had a chance to play around with
        > it, I would actually disagree with the "voice repeater spec". I
        > believe it is wrong to use the frequency for the name of the
        > object. I would instead use the callsign of the repeater followed
        > by -R to indicate at a glance at the station list that it's a
        > repeater.

        You're swimming upstream here! When you see an object with a frequency
        in it, it is immediately recognizable as repeater object. There aren't
        many assigned callsigns that are all numbers.

        > Going on and using the "tune" button, it is imperative
        > that the frequency is followed by MHz... e.g. 442.425MHz (case
        > sensitive) followed by T136 for the tone and + for the offset, so
        > my recommendation would be KA5MGL-R for the name of the
        > object.

        You've been hitting the beer early today! KA5MGL is another station
        entirely. It was an i-gate about 180 km east of the repeater that
        gated the packet to the internet. You're also mixing up repeater
        objects and QSY information that I am seeing a lot of people doing.
        The guys in Calgary are getting their voice repeater objects all
        screwed up by trying to put QSY information into the repeater objects.
        They are different beasts. Close cousins, but still different.

        > I've played with repeater objects generated by a KPC3+,
        > beacons from UI-View, from a script running on an IRLP node
        > (local club meeting announcements) and an APRS  IRLP status
        > object, and my conclusion was the same in every case. I felt it
        > was actually better to have the callsign for the object name
        > instead of the frequency, or of course in the case of an IRLP
        > node, IRLP-xxxx with the node number highly visible in the
        > station list.

        You're going to have to fight the masses then. I like the frequency in
        the object name where it is highly visible, and very unlikely to be
        mistaken for anything else. If you were local here in Edmonton, and I
        told you to meet me on the VE6HM repeater, the first question out of
        your mouth would be "What's the frequency?". Why go that extra step?
        Why not just say "Hey Keith, meet me on 444.100 MHz.". There's no
        mistaking that I want to meet up with you on the UHF side of that
        repeater, not the VHF side (which uses the same callsign).

        The frequency is the key component of getting communicating. The
        callsign is irrelevant, it is only required for government
        identification purposes. You could jump back one more step... why not
        use the location name for the object? EDMNTN-1 would work (since we're
        using EDMNTN as the digipeater alias). But then which Edmonton
        repeater are you talking about? That adds even more ambiguity to the
        mix as there are a dozen or so repeaters to choose from.

        > Yes, I should be saying this over on the APRS SIG, but there
        > are lots of T2s out there being used for digipeaters, so this
        > should be useful information for those adding repeater objects.

        Indeed, but this isn't really the forum for hashing out proposed
        changes to an established protocol. We should limit the information to
        how to get things implemented in the OpenTracker line in accordance
        with the currently established protocols.

        On the script examples page in the wiki there's an attempt at sending
        a repeater object with what is purported to be a 12 minute interval.
        It in fact sends the object after 10 minutes in a 22 minute repetitive
        cycle.

        The biggest problem with the ease of disseminating information on the
        internet is that very few people attempt to ensure that the
        information being delivered is actually correct.

        --
        James
        VE6SRV
      • James Ewen
        On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 7:52 PM, redneckmike586@sbcglobal.net ... For further confirmation that the digipeater is hearing things out in the wild, here s an
        Message 3 of 24 , Mar 11, 2012
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          On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 7:52 PM, redneckmike586@...
          <kd5vxq@...> wrote:

          > Hello Group my t2 is set up as a digi but i think it should be getting more than
          > what it is the call on it is wd5mhz-1 its in one the the highest mt top's in Arkansas

          For further confirmation that the digipeater is hearing things out in
          the wild, here's an excerpt from this evening's propagation reports.

          WD5MHZ-1

          EM24tx (34.9638, -94.3747)

          Destination Location Bearing Distance
          WD5MHZ-2 EM25vd 32 24
          WD5MHZ EM25ue 20 25
          GAYLOR EM25ws 14 90
          K5CS-12 EM35if 73 106
          CLRWTR EM26ud 4 130
          DEGRAY EM34kf 124 144
          DECATU EM26sh 357 149
          W5BGM EM16rd 304 238
          K8CYJ EM13qr 237 251
          AE5PL-10 EM13rg 227 274
          W5NGU-3 EM13kf 233 318
          W5NGU-4 EM13hl 240 324
          W5BEC-5 EM11jg 213 485

          (These are direct hops, no digipeaters in between, unless there are
          misconfigured digipeaters in the network)

          --
          James
          VE6SRV

          (As seen here: www.mountainlake.k12.mn.us/ham/aprs/path.cgi?map=na)
        • Keith VE7GDH
          James VE6SRV wrote... ... Maybe I should quit while I m ahead! ... Perhaps, and I agree that to a human, a bunch of numbers will look like a frequency... but
          Message 4 of 24 , Mar 11, 2012
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            James VE6SRV wrote...

            > I fully agree with Keith's statements up until now)

            Maybe I should quit while I'm ahead!

            > You're swimming upstream here! When you see an object
            > with a frequency in it, it is immediately recognizable as
            > repeater object. There aren't many assigned callsigns that
            > are all numbers.

            Perhaps, and I agree that to a human, a bunch of numbers will look
            like a frequency... but someone with a D72 (and (I assume a D710
            but can only guess about a TM-350R) can NOT hit the tune / QSY
            button to automatically go to that frequency with the correct
            offset and tone entered for them. It was only after I had the use
            of the D72 that I was able to play around with a few things and
            see if they worked or not. With the frequency as the name of
            the object, I was left with a bunch of manual work to dial in a
            frequency, tone and offset... not all radios do the offset
            automatically. I can certainly do that, and hopefully most hams
            can, but I do know that have trouble even going from memory to
            VFO mode. When all they have to is hit a "tune" button, it's quick
            and exact. Admittedly, only three radios are capable of this right
            now, but for those that have them, it adds a whole level of
            convenience.

            > You've been hitting the beer early today! KA5MGL is another
            > station entirely...

            Oh well, as long as Mike knows the callsign to enter in the
            repeater object!

            > You're going to have to fight the masses then. I like the
            > frequency in the object name where it is highly visible, and
            > very unlikely to be mistaken for anything else. If you were
            > local here in Edmonton, and I told you to meet me on the
            > VE6HM repeater, the first question out of your mouth would
            > be "What's the frequency?"

            Not if there was already a repeater object advertising its
            frequency, tone, offset and callsign. Of course, there's always
            the possibility that I wouldn't want to talk to any hams in
            Edmonton!

            > Why go that extra step? Why not just say "Hey Keith, meet me on
            > 444.100 MHz.". There's no mistaking that I want to meet up with
            > you on the UHF side of that repeater, not the VHF side (which
            > uses the same callsign).

            Yes, frequencies work for me on voice. If I was yakking with
            someone else with a D72, D710 or an FM-350R, they could QSY
            as many times as they wanted to and I could press a button or two
            and join them with no confusion.

            > The frequency is the key component of getting communicating.
            > The callsign is irrelevant, it is only required for government
            > identification purposes.

            I take pride in knowing the callsign of local repeaters and
            referring to them by callsign. Sure, the government likes us to
            identify too, but I take pride in my callsign as well as well as
            what is around me. If I'm trying to get a visitor over to a
            particular repeater, I'll give them the frequency AND the
            callsign.

            The only reason I raised the subject of object names for repeaters
            is that I've had a chance to play around with a D72 and seen why
            the recommended settings just did NOT work.

            > You could jump back one more step... why not use the location
            > name for the object? EDMNTN-1 would work (since we're using
            > EDMNTN as the digipeater alias). But then which Edmonton
            > repeater are you talking about? That adds even more ambiguity
            > to the mix as there are a dozen or so repeaters to choose from.

            You can name it what you want, but I would recommend the callsign
            followed by -R and I would recommend entering the frequency as
            e.g. "147.320MHz" so people with the mentioned radios can just hit
            the tune / QSY button to go there. The tone and offset information
            follows the frequency. There's nothing to stop you from naming the
            object the same as the frequency to keep you happy and still
            having the frequency in the proper format in the comment for the
            benefit of the growing number of D72 / D710 / FTM-350R users.

            > Indeed, but this isn't really the forum for hashing out proposed
            > changes to an established protocol...

            I'll type up a note for the APRS SIG sometime. My suggests are
            based on what DOES work in a D72. I can only assume that the D710
            will be exactly the same. I'm making more of an assumption about
            the Yaesu, but perhaps someone can comment about that over on the
            APRS SIG. I was perfectly happy with the recommended settings for
            repeater objects until I found out they didn't work on a D72.

            73 es cul - Keith VE7GDH
            --
            "I may be lost, but I know exactly where I am!"
          • James Ewen
            ... Where s the fun in that? ... That s fine and dandy, but you can t dial in a callsign and have a radio magically find the frequency. I too know callsigns
            Message 5 of 24 , Mar 11, 2012
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              On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 10:28 PM, Keith VE7GDH <ve7gdh@...> wrote:

              >> I fully agree with Keith's statements up until now)
              >
              > Maybe I should quit while I'm ahead!

              Where's the fun in that?

              >> The frequency is the key component of getting communicating.
              >> The callsign is irrelevant, it is only required for government
              >> identification purposes.
              >
              > I take pride in knowing the callsign of local repeaters and
              > referring to them by callsign. Sure, the government likes us to
              > identify too, but I take pride in my callsign as well as well as
              > what is around me. If I'm trying to get a visitor over to a
              > particular repeater, I'll give them the frequency AND the
              > callsign.

              That's fine and dandy, but you can't dial in a callsign and have a
              radio magically find the frequency. I too know callsigns and
              frequencies of the local machines, but when in a new area, and given a
              bunch of useless information, I have to work hard to discard the
              useless information, and try and pick out the useful info from the
              rest. Callsign, location, repeater radio type, controller version,
              linked frequencies, number of backup batteries, etc are all nice
              things to know, but the number one thing you need is the frequency
              that the repeater operates on. That's available right on the display
              in the name of the object.

              The concept behind repeater objects is to get the information to the
              visitor to the area, not the knowledgeable local who probably already
              has the repeater programmed into their radio memories.

              > The only reason I raised the subject of object names for repeaters
              > is that I've had a chance to play around with a D72 and seen why
              > the recommended settings just did NOT work.

              It works on my D72 and D710.

              --
              James
              VE6SRV
            • James Ewen
              ... WD5MHZ-1 EM24tx 54 497 Another good long hop. 2012-03-12 04:53:24 N5TEQ-10 APRS,WD5MHZ-1,CLRWTR*,WIDE3-1,qAR,AC0JK-5:!3228.57NN09850.35W#PHG7440 N5TEQ
              Message 6 of 24 , Mar 11, 2012
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                On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 10:03 PM, James Ewen <ve6srv@...> wrote:

                > Destination     Location        Bearing Distance

                WD5MHZ-1 EM24tx 54 497

                Another good long hop.

                2012-03-12 04:53:24
                N5TEQ-10>APRS,WD5MHZ-1,CLRWTR*,WIDE3-1,qAR,AC0JK-5:!3228.57NN09850.35W#PHG7440
                N5TEQ Eastlan

                Of course, there are enhanced conditions in the area this evening, as
                many digipeaters in the area are catching some really long haul
                packets.

                N5TEQ-10 is running TRACE3-3 as an alternating path... no longer
                supported, but sadly, still in use.

                --
                James
                VE6SRV
              • Keith VE7GDH
                James VE6SRV wrote... ... Then I must be doing something wrong. I could only get the D72 to tune to the frequency embedded in the repeater object if the
                Message 7 of 24 , Mar 12, 2012
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                  James VE6SRV wrote...

                  > It works on my D72 and D710.

                  Then I must be doing something wrong. I could only get the
                  D72 to "tune" to the frequency embedded in the repeater
                  object if the format was e,g, 147.320MHz and I found it to
                  be case sensitive too.

                  73 es cul - Keith VE7GDH
                  --
                  "I may be lost, but I know exactly where I am!"
                • James Ewen
                  ... Case sensitivity is part of the specification. There are other things in APRS that are case sensitive, so does that make them broken as well? There are
                  Message 8 of 24 , Mar 12, 2012
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                    On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 1:12 AM, Keith VE7GDH <ve7gdh@...> wrote:

                    > Then I must be doing something wrong. I could only get the
                    > D72 to "tune" to the frequency embedded in the repeater
                    > object if the format was e,g, 147.320MHz and I found it to
                    > be case sensitive too.

                    Case sensitivity is part of the specification. There are other things
                    in APRS that are case sensitive, so does that make them broken as
                    well? There are details that are conveyed due to the case of specific
                    characters in the specification.

                    It's incorrect to consider a packet format incorrect just because of a
                    problem with the implementation of the decoding of that specification
                    in a specific piece of hardware as well. Modifying the specification
                    to work around limitations in a hardware implementation does not make
                    the specification wrong.

                    --
                    James
                    VE6SRV
                  • Fred Hillhouse
                    Does the D72 have to be in VFO mode to use the frequency in the name? I think the FTM-350, the frequency object can only be tuned if the radio is in VFO mode.
                    Message 9 of 24 , Mar 12, 2012
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                      Does the D72 have to be in VFO mode to use the frequency in the name?
                       
                      I think the FTM-350, the frequency object can only be tuned if the radio is in VFO mode. Two locals have been playing with those radios and discovered it.
                       
                      Best regards,
                      Fred, N7FMH


                      From: tracker2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:tracker2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Keith VE7GDH
                      Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 03:12
                      To: tracker2@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [tracker2] Digi Question

                       

                      James VE6SRV wrote...

                      > It works on my D72 and D710.

                      Then I must be doing something wrong. I could only get the
                      D72 to "tune" to the frequency embedded in the repeater
                      object if the format was e,g, 147.320MHz and I found it to
                      be case sensitive too.

                      73 es cul - Keith VE7GDH
                      --
                      "I may be lost, but I know exactly where I am!"

                    • Fred Hillhouse
                      UNCAN kicks out 3 repeater objects [actually 4, but it is 1-1/4M]. In our testing, the Kenwood TM-D710 and the Yaesu FTM-350 can tune to the objects. The
                      Message 10 of 24 , Mar 12, 2012
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                        UNCAN kicks out 3 repeater objects [actually 4, but it is 1-1/4M]. In our testing, the Kenwood TM-D710 and the Yaesu FTM-350 can tune to the objects. The TH-D72 was not tested but I suspect it operates the same as its sibling.
                         
                        Best regards,
                        Fred, N7FMH
                         
                         


                        From: tracker2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:tracker2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fred Hillhouse
                        Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 10:14
                        To: tracker2@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [tracker2] Digi Question

                         

                        Does the D72 have to be in VFO mode to use the frequency in the name?
                         
                        I think the FTM-350, the frequency object can only be tuned if the radio is in VFO mode. Two locals have been playing with those radios and discovered it.
                         
                        Best regards,
                        Fred, N7FMH


                        From: tracker2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:tracker2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Keith VE7GDH
                        Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 03:12
                        To: tracker2@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [tracker2] Digi Question

                         

                        James VE6SRV wrote...

                        > It works on my D72 and D710.

                        Then I must be doing something wrong. I could only get the
                        D72 to "tune" to the frequency embedded in the repeater
                        object if the format was e,g, 147.320MHz and I found it to
                        be case sensitive too.

                        73 es cul - Keith VE7GDH
                        --
                        "I may be lost, but I know exactly where I am!"

                      • James Ewen
                        ... No it does not have to be in VFO mode, you can have a memory pulled up on screen. However, when you TUNE or QSY (two different concepts), the radio will
                        Message 11 of 24 , Mar 12, 2012
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                          On Mon, Mar 12, 2012 at 8:13 AM, Fred Hillhouse <fmhillhouse@...> wrote:

                          > Does the D72 have to be in VFO mode to use the frequency in the name?

                          No it does not have to be in VFO mode, you can have a memory pulled up
                          on screen. However, when you TUNE or QSY (two different concepts), the
                          radio will get moved to VFO mode to enable access to the frequency. If
                          the radio stayed in memory mode, you would have to have a memory
                          configured that matched the information in the received packet.

                          It's no different than manual entry of frequency, offset, and tone
                          information into the radio, except that the radio fills in the
                          information for you.

                          --
                          James
                          VE6SRV
                        • Keith VE7GDH
                          James VE6SRV wrote... ... If you agree that MHz is case sensitive in the frequency for a repeater object, would you also consider the usage of beaconing a
                          Message 12 of 24 , Mar 13, 2012
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                            James VE6SRV wrote...

                            > Case sensitivity is part of the specification. There are other
                            > things in APRS that are case sensitive, so does that make them
                            > broken as well? There are details that are conveyed due to the
                            > case of specific characters in the specification.

                            If you agree that MHz is case sensitive in the frequency for a
                            repeater object, would you also consider the usage of beaconing a
                            repeater object is incorrect if it is just plain missing the MHz?
                            That is my point. If you beacon a repeater object where the only
                            place the frequency is shown is in the name of the object, it is
                            unusable for users of current crop of tune/QSY radios, namely the
                            TH-D72A/E, TM-D710A/E and the FTM-350AR. Yes, a human
                            can look at the frequency and (laboriously) dial in the frequency,
                            offset and tone but why go out of your way to remove some
                            extremely useful functionality in this new crop of radios?

                            > It's incorrect to consider a packet format incorrect just
                            > because of a problem with the implementation of the decoding
                            > of that specification in a specific piece of hardware as well.
                            > Modifying the specification to work around limitations in a
                            > hardware implementation does not make the specification wrong.

                            The specification itself is a moving target, and a number of times
                            changes have been recommended by Bob himself to fine tune it
                            to match Kenwood's implementation of his recommendations to
                            them. The new radios require a particular format to be able to
                            use the tune/QSY button. I'm not going to intentionally do
                            something to prevent them from being used to the fullest extent.
                            The format shown on the following page agrees with you...

                            www.aprs.org/localinfo.html

                            and the following page gets it right (mostly except for the
                            example of D256 which doesn't exist and a few other odds'n'ends)
                            and is compatible with the D72, D710 and FTM-350AR. That
                            is the route I will take. I didn't invent it. I just borrowed a
                            D72 and found what works and what doesn't. The "frequency
                            spec" page emphasizes FFF.FFFMHz or FFF.FF MHz but
                            does also show the frequency for the object name... but you
                            can't put MHz there to make it tuneable. Perhaps a compromise
                            would be to have the frequency in the object name to keep
                            you happy (and those that don't have a D72 etc.) and to also
                            have a tuneable frequency in the beacon comment. I would still
                            prefer to see the callsign but would fight more for a tuneable
                            frequency in the comment rather than leaving it out to spite
                            owners of the "new" tune/QSY capable radios.

                            www.aprs.org/info/freqspec.txt

                            Anyway, enough of this. I'll type up a note for the APRS SIG
                            when I get a chance.

                            73 es cul - Keith VE7GDH
                            ve7gdh@...
                          • Lynn W. Deffenbaugh (Mr)
                            Completing the off-topic thread here, why not put the frequency as the object name so that it shows up for the human in the readable station list AND put the
                            Message 13 of 24 , Mar 13, 2012
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                              Completing the off-topic thread here, why not put the frequency as the
                              object name so that it shows up for the human in the readable station
                              list AND put the FFF.FFFMHz or FFF.FF MHz (or whatever case is correct)
                              in the comment for use by the TUNE/QSY function?

                              Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Decloaking for comments...

                              On 3/13/2012 9:49 AM, Keith VE7GDH wrote:
                              > James VE6SRV wrote...
                              >
                              >> Case sensitivity is part of the specification. There are other
                              >> things in APRS that are case sensitive, so does that make them
                              >> broken as well? There are details that are conveyed due to the
                              >> case of specific characters in the specification.
                              > If you agree that MHz is case sensitive in the frequency for a
                              > repeater object, would you also consider the usage of beaconing a
                              > repeater object is incorrect if it is just plain missing the MHz?
                              > That is my point. If you beacon a repeater object where the only
                              > place the frequency is shown is in the name of the object, it is
                              > unusable for users of current crop of tune/QSY radios, namely the
                              > TH-D72A/E, TM-D710A/E and the FTM-350AR. Yes, a human
                              > can look at the frequency and (laboriously) dial in the frequency,
                              > offset and tone but why go out of your way to remove some
                              > extremely useful functionality in this new crop of radios?
                              >
                              >> It's incorrect to consider a packet format incorrect just
                              >> because of a problem with the implementation of the decoding
                              >> of that specification in a specific piece of hardware as well.
                              >> Modifying the specification to work around limitations in a
                              >> hardware implementation does not make the specification wrong.
                              > The specification itself is a moving target, and a number of times
                              > changes have been recommended by Bob himself to fine tune it
                              > to match Kenwood's implementation of his recommendations to
                              > them. The new radios require a particular format to be able to
                              > use the tune/QSY button. I'm not going to intentionally do
                              > something to prevent them from being used to the fullest extent.
                              > The format shown on the following page agrees with you...
                              >
                              > www.aprs.org/localinfo.html
                              >
                              > and the following page gets it right (mostly except for the
                              > example of D256 which doesn't exist and a few other odds'n'ends)
                              > and is compatible with the D72, D710 and FTM-350AR. That
                              > is the route I will take. I didn't invent it. I just borrowed a
                              > D72 and found what works and what doesn't. The "frequency
                              > spec" page emphasizes FFF.FFFMHz or FFF.FF MHz but
                              > does also show the frequency for the object name... but you
                              > can't put MHz there to make it tuneable. Perhaps a compromise
                              > would be to have the frequency in the object name to keep
                              > you happy (and those that don't have a D72 etc.) and to also
                              > have a tuneable frequency in the beacon comment. I would still
                              > prefer to see the callsign but would fight more for a tuneable
                              > frequency in the comment rather than leaving it out to spite
                              > owners of the "new" tune/QSY capable radios.
                              >
                              > www.aprs.org/info/freqspec.txt
                              >
                              > Anyway, enough of this. I'll type up a note for the APRS SIG
                              > when I get a chance.
                              >
                              > 73 es cul - Keith VE7GDH
                              > ve7gdh@...
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • Keith VE7GDH
                              Lynn KJ4ERJ wrote... ... That is what I said. Scroll way down below your top-posted non-edited for brevity reply to the last paragraph. 8-). My preference
                              Message 14 of 24 , Mar 13, 2012
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                                Lynn KJ4ERJ wrote...

                                > why not put the frequency as the object name so that it shows up
                                > for the human in the readable station list AND put the
                                > FFF.FFFMHz or FFF.FF MHz (or whatever case is correct) in the
                                > comment for use by the TUNE/QSY function?

                                That is what I said. Scroll way down below your "top-posted
                                non-edited for brevity" reply to the last paragraph. 8-). My
                                preference would be to use the callsign for the object name, but
                                the above compromise would allow the TUNE/QSY function to work.

                                73 es cul - Keith VE7GDH
                                --
                                "I may be lost, but I know exactly where I am!"
                              • James Ewen
                                ... I don t agree with the first part of the statement, so I don t agree with the second half either. BTEXT ;FFF.FFxyz*111111zDDMM.hhN/DDDMM.hhWrTnnn RXXm
                                Message 15 of 24 , Mar 13, 2012
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                                  On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 7:49 AM, Keith VE7GDH <ve7gdh@...> wrote:

                                  > If you agree that MHz is case sensitive in the frequency for a
                                  > repeater object, would you also consider the usage of beaconing a
                                  > repeater object is incorrect if it is just plain missing the MHz?

                                  I don't agree with the first part of the statement, so I don't agree
                                  with the second half either.

                                  BTEXT ;FFF.FFxyz*111111zDDMM.hhN/DDDMM.hhWrTnnn RXXm NETxxxxxx
                                  MTGxxxxx .........

                                  There is no specification for MHz as part of a repeater object.

                                  > That is my point. If you beacon a repeater object where the only
                                  > place the frequency is shown is in the name of the object, it is
                                  > unusable for users of current crop of tune/QSY radios, namely the
                                  > TH-D72A/E, TM-D710A/E and the FTM-350AR.

                                  It works on mine... 146.70-JE, 147.375+E, 145.250-R, 146.910-R,
                                  145.210-R, 147.06-HM, 146.64-SK, 145.45-HO repeater objects are all in
                                  the list of stations in my D72. All of them work.

                                  > The specification itself is a moving target, and a number of times
                                  > changes have been recommended by Bob himself to fine tune it
                                  > to match Kenwood's implementation of his recommendations to
                                  > them. The new radios require a particular format to be able to
                                  > use the tune/QSY button.

                                  That's a problem with one person modifying specifications to match a
                                  single manufacturer's implementation. By modifying the specification
                                  in such a manner, it makes it nearly impossible for other
                                  manufacturer's to design their equipment to meet the specification.
                                  That can lead to a huge problem for the protocol overall, as one
                                  manufacturer receives preferential treatment, possibly leading the
                                  other manufacturer's to abandon attempting to support that same
                                  protocol.

                                  > The format shown on the following page agrees with you...
                                  >
                                  > www.aprs.org/localinfo.html

                                  Correct, since that is the "definitive" page describing the voice
                                  repeater object definition.

                                  > and the following page gets it right (mostly except for the
                                  > example of D256 which doesn't exist and a few other odds'n'ends)
                                  > and is compatible with the D72, D710 and FTM-350AR. That
                                  > is the route I will take. I didn't invent it.

                                  You do realize that there are two (2) methods of specifying frequency
                                  information, do you not? I have been repeating this over and over
                                  again, but you keep appearing to be combining the two methods into a
                                  single concept. Voice repeater objects and the QSY information format
                                  are not one and the same.

                                  The second page you cite: http://www.aprs.org/info/freqspec.txt lays
                                  out both formats under totally different headings.

                                  The first paragraph of the section on APRS frequency formats describes
                                  the two formats.


                                  ********************************

                                  APRS FREQUENCY FORMATS:
                                  -----------------------

                                  There are two Frequency formats. The POSITION COMMENT format includes
                                  the frequency as FFF.FFFMHz in the free field text of a normal
                                  position or object report as noted above. The other is called the
                                  OBJECT format because it puts the Frequency in the OBJECT NAME using
                                  the format of FFF.FFxyz so that it shows up very clearly on the
                                  radio's station list. Of course, an object can also have a frequency
                                  in its position comment as well. If both the object name and the
                                  comment contain a frequency, then the name is considered the transmit
                                  frequency for the object and the frequency in its comment text is
                                  its split receive frequency.

                                  ********************************

                                  > I just borrowed a
                                  > D72 and found what works and what  doesn't. The "frequency
                                  > spec" page emphasizes FFF.FFFMHz or FFF.FF MHz

                                  For the POSITION COMMENT format.

                                  > but does also show the frequency for the object name...

                                  For the VOICE REPEATER FREQUENCY OBJECTS format.

                                  > but you can't put MHz there to make it tuneable.

                                  You don't need to, the radio will tune to the frequency embedded
                                  within the object name.

                                  > Perhaps a  compromise
                                  > would be to have the frequency in the object name to keep
                                  > you happy

                                  Not me, the APRS VOICE REPEATER FREQUENCY OBJECT specification.

                                  > (and those that don't have a D72 etc.) and to also
                                  > have a tuneable frequency in the beacon comment.

                                  As described in the above quote:

                                  *******************************
                                  the name is considered the transmit frequency for the object and the
                                  frequency in its comment text is its split receive frequency.
                                  *******************************

                                  > I would still
                                  > prefer to see the callsign but would fight more for a tuneable
                                  > frequency in the comment rather than leaving it out to spite
                                  > owners of the "new" tune/QSY capable radios.

                                  There's no spite involved... the callsign can be included in the
                                  comment portion of the object if so desired.

                                  > Anyway, enough of this. I'll type up a note for the APRS SIG
                                  > when I get a chance.

                                  That would be a good place to discuss the issue, but it would be best
                                  to get a good handle on the current implementation before suggesting
                                  changes.

                                  --
                                  James
                                  VE6SRV
                                • Keith VE7GDH
                                  James VE6SRV wrote... Obviously, this has gone on too long on the OT list, but... ... None of them work on the D72 that I have here. I tried every one from
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Mar 13, 2012
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                                    James VE6SRV wrote...

                                    Obviously, this has gone on too long on the OT list, but...

                                    > It works on mine... 146.70-JE, 147.375+E, 145.250-R, 146.910-R,
                                    > 145.210-R, 147.06-HM, 146.64-SK, 145.45-HO repeater objects
                                    > are all in the list of stations in my D72. All of them work.

                                    None of them work on the D72 that I have here. I tried every one
                                    from above (copied and pasted) as object names and in a beacon
                                    comment and the tune function didn't work with a single one.

                                    What does work in the D72 that I have here (actually two of
                                    them I have tried now) is FFF.FFFMHz or FFF.FF MHz
                                    in the comment.

                                    As I mentioned. I'll post on the APRS SIG when I have a moment.

                                    73 es cul - Keith VE7GDH
                                    --
                                    "I may be lost, but I know exactly where I am!"
                                  • James Ewen
                                    ... Then you have something wrong happening there. -- James VE6SRV
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Mar 14, 2012
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                                      On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 11:49 PM, Keith VE7GDH <ve7gdh@...> wrote:

                                      > None of them work on the D72 that I have here. I tried every one
                                      > from above (copied and pasted) as object names and in a beacon
                                      > comment and the tune function didn't work with a single one.

                                      Then you have something wrong happening there.

                                      --
                                      James
                                      VE6SRV
                                    • redneckmike586@sbcglobal.net
                                      Hey James, I just read this i thought i had it set up to send email anyways on the script how do i put this in the T2 do i copy and paste to the Script editor
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Apr 22, 2012
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                                        Hey James,
                                        I just read this i thought i had it set up to send email anyways on the script how do i put this in the T2 do i copy and paste to the Script editor or how do i do this? I have never done a script like this one.

                                        Thanks
                                        Mike Henry
                                        wd5mhz
                                        On Second
                                        > Increment Counter 1
                                        > If Counter 1 = 1800
                                        > Exec "BEA ;442.425+R*111111z3458.72N/09419.35WrT136 R40m WD5MHZ"
                                        > Set Counter 1 = 0
                                        > End Block
                                        > End Block

                                        --- In tracker2@yahoogroups.com, James Ewen <ve6srv@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 10:13 AM, Keith VE7GDH <ve7gdh@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > > But WHY is it beaconing with a path of WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1???
                                        >
                                        > C'mon Keith... you're being nasty now... he only asked about the
                                        > digipeat aliases... 8)
                                        >
                                        > > You said yourself that it is on one of the highest mountains in
                                        > > Arkansas. It will trigger every fill-in digi out to the horizon!
                                        > > Consider instead a one hop WIDE2-1.
                                        >
                                        > The T2 can use alternate paths, so you could reduce your impact on the
                                        > RF network by alternating between WIDE2-1 and an empty outgoing path.
                                        >
                                        > > With a high  digi nearby, consider a one hop WIDE2-1 for your
                                        > > iGate too.
                                        >
                                        > 3 hops is a little on the long side for sure.
                                        >
                                        > WD5MHZ>APU25N,GAYLOR*,K5CS-12*,WIDE3-1,qAR,KA5MGL:;442.425-R*030027z3458.72N/09419.35Wm442.425
                                        > +
                                        >
                                        > Sending a repeater object from your home station is less efficient
                                        > than sending it from the digipeater. Especially when you are sending
                                        > the repeater object out via 3 hops. Tunable voice repeater objects
                                        > should only be sent out as far as the repeater can be accessed.
                                        > There's no use in advertising the local repeater 200 miles outside of
                                        > it's coverage area. You can create a script in the T2 to send voice
                                        > repeater objects directly from the digipeater. Since the repeater you
                                        > are advertising is located quite close to the digipeater, if you can
                                        > see the voice repeater object on the screen of your APRS station, you
                                        > probably can work it.
                                        >
                                        > ;442.425-R*030027z3458.72N/09419.35Wm442.425 +
                                        >
                                        > The information you are sending is contradictory... the object name
                                        > indicates that the repeater has a negative offset, but the comment
                                        > text at the end seems to be indicating a positive offset.
                                        >
                                        > There should be a few minor changes to make it a permanent object for
                                        > transmission from the digipeater.
                                        >
                                        > Here's the information we have about the repeater:
                                        >
                                        > http://www.repeaterbook.com/repeaters/details.php?state_id=05&ID=206
                                        >
                                        > Of course the information here shows the repeater in the town of
                                        > Greenwood, whereas the location from the object being sent places it
                                        > in the bush on a hill about 3 miles from the WD5MHZ digipeater, which
                                        > is near a site that has towers on the hilltop.
                                        >
                                        > With the voice repeater spec in hand...
                                        >
                                        > BTEXT ;FFF.FFxyz*111111zDDMM.hhN/DDDMM.hhWrTnnn RXXm NETxxxxxx
                                        > MTGxxxxx .........
                                        >
                                        > Where ;FFF.FFxyz is the frequency, and "xyz" are optional local unique
                                        > characters
                                        > or ;FFF.FF5yz for 5 KHz repeaters and "yz" is one of over 3600
                                        > unique characters A-z, 0-9
                                        > or Example "xyz"s might be -IA for Iowa, -A for Atlanta, *SD
                                        > for SanDiego, etc
                                        > Where *111111z is the pseudo default null Date-Time field for the OBJECT format
                                        > Where DDMM.hhN/DDDMM.hhWr is the LAT/LONG and "r" symbol for a voice repeater
                                        > Where Tnnn is the tone in Hz (without tenths) and RXXm is the range in Miles
                                        > Where Netxxxxxx is the local weekly net time (if any)
                                        > Where Mtgyyyyy is the monthly club meeting time (if any)
                                        > Where ... are 9 more bytes of optional text that will not be displayed
                                        > on most mobiles but are visible on other clients
                                        >
                                        > There are a few things to change...
                                        >
                                        > ;442.425+R*111111z3458.72N/09419.35WrT136 R40m WD5MHZ
                                        >
                                        > Changed items:
                                        >
                                        > Positive offset
                                        > Permanent object timestamp
                                        > Icon is a repeater (Unless your repeater actually does Mic-E decoding)
                                        > Added CTCSS tone information
                                        > Added callsign of the repeater
                                        >
                                        > Here's a script that will send voice repeater objects every 10
                                        > minutes. You can easily vary the time interval to suite your desires.
                                        >
                                        > On Second
                                        > Increment Counter 1
                                        > If Counter 1 = 1800
                                        > Exec "BEA ;442.425+R*111111z3458.72N/09419.35WrT136 R40m WD5MHZ"
                                        > Set Counter 1 = 0
                                        > End Block
                                        > End Block
                                        >
                                        > > No fixed station should use WIDE1-1. A digi should never use
                                        > > WIDE1-1. Nothing that flies should use WIDE1-1...
                                        >
                                        > I'll second that!
                                        >
                                        > > Why does it have WD5MHZ in the beacon comment? It's already in
                                        > > MYCALL. You could shorten the beacons even further by enabling
                                        > > compressed beacons.
                                        >
                                        > That could be useful if he was running a tactical alias that better
                                        > described the location of the digipeater, such as HRTFRD. The use of
                                        > tactical aliases makes it easier to visualize the placement of the
                                        > digipeaters. It is much easier to pair HRTFRD with the town of
                                        > Hartford than it is to pair WD5MHZ-1 with Hartford.
                                        >
                                        > When running a tactical alias, it is important to send position
                                        > reports every 10 minutes in the USA to fulfill the FCC ID requirement
                                        > as your callsign is embedded in the comment section of the position
                                        > reports. With alternating paths of WIDE2-1 and <empty> going every 10
                                        > minutes, you'll end up with less network impact than your current
                                        > WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1 network clogging path every 20 minutes.
                                        >
                                        > --
                                        > James
                                        > VE6SRV
                                        >
                                        > PS. Sorry, but Keith and I as well as a number of others from the
                                        > NWAPRS group have been optimizing digipeater settings for well over a
                                        > decade. We're a little fanatical, but squeezing every little bit of
                                        > performance out of the digipeaters is fun for us. As a side effect,
                                        > your local APRS RF network will work better.
                                        >
                                      • James Ewen
                                        On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 4:50 PM, redneckmike586@sbcglobal.net ... To have the digipeater send email messages, you would need to have a script configured that
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Apr 22, 2012
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 4:50 PM, redneckmike586@...
                                          <kd5vxq@...> wrote:

                                          >  I just read this i thought i had it set up to send email

                                          To have the digipeater send email messages, you would need to have a
                                          script configured that initiates the message. If however you are
                                          talking about having the digipeater respond to remote commands sent by
                                          APRS messages, that would require having authorized remote operator
                                          callsigns assigned in the AUTH list.

                                          > anyways on the script how do i put this in the T2 do i copy and paste
                                          > to the Script editor or how do i do this? I have never done a script like this one.

                                          You'll need to enter the script into the script editor manually when
                                          on site. You can't just cut and paste the script into the editor. You
                                          have to go into the script editor, and click on the "On Second" button
                                          to get the first line to enter into the script window. Then you need
                                          to select "Counter 1" in "A" then press the "Increment A" button to
                                          get the second line. Then you'll need to enter "1800" into "C" and
                                          then press the "IF A = C" button to get the third line.

                                          You should be getting the idea... it's a little weird when you first
                                          get into using this script editor, but if you have any assembly
                                          language experience, it's kind of reminds you of that... You have to
                                          set your variables up, and then call the operation.

                                          >  On Second
                                          >>   Increment Counter 1
                                          >>   If Counter 1 = 1800
                                          >>     Exec "BEA ;442.425+R*111111z3458.72N/09419.35WrT136 R40m WD5MHZ"
                                          >>     Set Counter 1 = 0
                                          >>   End Block
                                          >> End Block

                                          Scott has a utility to dump the script as patch commands, but I have
                                          not been successful at patching a new script into the remote unit. I'm
                                          a little leery of trying to do so because of the ease of screwing up
                                          much more than just the scripts. The patch commands that Scott creates
                                          are too long to send as APRS messages, so I had to cut each line into
                                          two pieces, inserting new addresses as well. I sent all of that to my
                                          remote unit, and didn't get any joy.

                                          If the patch utility made shorter lines, and then when you sent a
                                          patch command to a remote unit, if it responded that it got the patch
                                          command successfully, I would be much less apprehensive about using
                                          the patch. Making the patch lines shorter, and adding a CRC checksum
                                          as the last value per line would allow the remote unit to check to see
                                          if the patch command arrived intact, and be able to send back a
                                          confirmation response letting you know that the command was received
                                          successfully.

                                          I do some fairly extensive scripting on my digipeaters, and when I
                                          screw up my scripts, or want to make a change, I end up having to
                                          drive back out to the digipeater. I have digipeaters that are up to 5
                                          hours away now, so it's really a pain to have to return to the site to
                                          fix a script up. I can make just about every other change to the
                                          digipeater remotely, scripting and profile switching settings remain a
                                          road trip item for me.

                                          If you send me the config that you have saved from WD5MHZ-2 I can load
                                          it up here and have a look at it to see what you have setup for
                                          AUTHLIST and scripting currently. I think your AUTHLIST is empty...

                                          --
                                          James
                                          VE6SRV
                                        • redneckmike586@sbcglobal.net
                                          Hey James can you send me your email and i will send you the config file. my email is wd5mhz@cox.net Also i should have been clear on the group email i dont
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Apr 23, 2012
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Hey James can you send me your email and i will send you the config file. my email is wd5mhz@...
                                            Also i should have been clear on the group email i dont want the digi to send email i had the settings for the group web only instead of send email so i didnt think anyone responded to the post lol sorry

                                            Thanks
                                            Mike Henry
                                            wd5mhz

                                            --- In tracker2@yahoogroups.com, James Ewen <ve6srv@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 4:50 PM, redneckmike586@...
                                            > <kd5vxq@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > >  I just read this i thought i had it set up to send email
                                            >
                                            > To have the digipeater send email messages, you would need to have a
                                            > script configured that initiates the message. If however you are
                                            > talking about having the digipeater respond to remote commands sent by
                                            > APRS messages, that would require having authorized remote operator
                                            > callsigns assigned in the AUTH list.
                                            >
                                            > > anyways on the script how do i put this in the T2 do i copy and paste
                                            > > to the Script editor or how do i do this? I have never done a script like this one.
                                            >
                                            > You'll need to enter the script into the script editor manually when
                                            > on site. You can't just cut and paste the script into the editor. You
                                            > have to go into the script editor, and click on the "On Second" button
                                            > to get the first line to enter into the script window. Then you need
                                            > to select "Counter 1" in "A" then press the "Increment A" button to
                                            > get the second line. Then you'll need to enter "1800" into "C" and
                                            > then press the "IF A = C" button to get the third line.
                                            >
                                            > You should be getting the idea... it's a little weird when you first
                                            > get into using this script editor, but if you have any assembly
                                            > language experience, it's kind of reminds you of that... You have to
                                            > set your variables up, and then call the operation.
                                            >
                                            > >  On Second
                                            > >>   Increment Counter 1
                                            > >>   If Counter 1 = 1800
                                            > >>     Exec "BEA ;442.425+R*111111z3458.72N/09419.35WrT136 R40m WD5MHZ"
                                            > >>     Set Counter 1 = 0
                                            > >>   End Block
                                            > >> End Block
                                            >
                                            > Scott has a utility to dump the script as patch commands, but I have
                                            > not been successful at patching a new script into the remote unit. I'm
                                            > a little leery of trying to do so because of the ease of screwing up
                                            > much more than just the scripts. The patch commands that Scott creates
                                            > are too long to send as APRS messages, so I had to cut each line into
                                            > two pieces, inserting new addresses as well. I sent all of that to my
                                            > remote unit, and didn't get any joy.
                                            >
                                            > If the patch utility made shorter lines, and then when you sent a
                                            > patch command to a remote unit, if it responded that it got the patch
                                            > command successfully, I would be much less apprehensive about using
                                            > the patch. Making the patch lines shorter, and adding a CRC checksum
                                            > as the last value per line would allow the remote unit to check to see
                                            > if the patch command arrived intact, and be able to send back a
                                            > confirmation response letting you know that the command was received
                                            > successfully.
                                            >
                                            > I do some fairly extensive scripting on my digipeaters, and when I
                                            > screw up my scripts, or want to make a change, I end up having to
                                            > drive back out to the digipeater. I have digipeaters that are up to 5
                                            > hours away now, so it's really a pain to have to return to the site to
                                            > fix a script up. I can make just about every other change to the
                                            > digipeater remotely, scripting and profile switching settings remain a
                                            > road trip item for me.
                                            >
                                            > If you send me the config that you have saved from WD5MHZ-2 I can load
                                            > it up here and have a look at it to see what you have setup for
                                            > AUTHLIST and scripting currently. I think your AUTHLIST is empty...
                                            >
                                            > --
                                            > James
                                            > VE6SRV
                                            >
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