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T2-135 Digipeating Issues

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  • Gil
    I have a T2-135 system that I ve had for a few years. It has always worked pretty well. It is presently running as a fill-in digi at my house (responding to
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 30, 2011
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      I have a T2-135 system that I've had for a few years. It has always worked pretty well. It is presently running as a fill-in digi at my house (responding to WIDE1-1 and my call sign, WB2UTI-1) using build 55863. The transmitter is running about 9 - 10 Watts out to a 6 dB gain antenna about 15 feet above ground level in my attic (I'm in an antenna restricted community - and if I run much more power, it sets off my smoke alarms - but that's another problem altogether...).

      My community is also set up for "golf cart" access to almost everywhere, so,naturally, when I got one myself, it had to have a radio/APRS beacon in it. I manage that with a Kenwood D72 and an external antenna mounted on the cart (with enough of a ground plane to get less than 1.5:1 for an SWR). I even recently put a Mirage dual band amplifier into that system to be sure that I was getting enough power out to be heard. I increased the tranmitter delay on the D72 to be sure the amplifier was up to full output before getting the packet data.

      Here's my problem. When I'm out in that vehicle, most of the time I don't seem to be getting digipeated by my own home station and most other digipeater stations are far enough away that I don't usually get heard by them (that was the whole point of putting up a fill-in digi at my house). What is particularly frustrating is that if I hook up the Alinco radio to APRSPoint (I like the Microsoft maps...) and track myself (WB2UTI-7) when I'm out and about in the golf cart, when I get home and check it, the display map shows every beacon I sent and it traces my path perfectly. But if I go to aprs.fi, I'm lucky to get maybe two position reports (out of 25 - 30) for the same trip. So the radio seems to be hearing and decoding me OK and passing that along to APRSPoint, but more often than not, it's not digipeating me (my path in the D72 is WB2UTI-1,WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1). I have the home station set to beacon occasionally and aprs.fi hears every one of those beacons, so I know that radio is capable of hitting the nearest I-Gate.

      I'm running pretty much the default smart-beacon profile on the D72 radio and the beacons are not more frequent than two minutes or so at the shortest (so I don't think they're coming in too frequently for the digipeater to respond). I only rarely get the acknowledging two tones in the radio to indicate that a digipeater has heard and repeated me and when I do, it's occasionally when some distant digipeater has heard me. I do hear and decode other stations on my D72 so I think that's working OK. I do get the acknowledgement when I'm close to home, but even then, those beacons don't necessarily show up on aprs.fi (packet collisions on the output of my home station?).

      As for settings on the T2, I have WIDE1-1 enabled for digipeating as well as digipeating on my call in both profiles (which are identical).

      I understand that packet collisions occur but I would not have expected that to be the majority case for most beacons sent by my mobile station or for my home station. I'm outside the high traffic area where I used to live.

      Any thoughts on what might be going on here? I know it's probably something obvious that I've overlooked.

      Thanks,

      Gil, WB2UTI
    • Keith VE7GDH
      Gil WB2UTI wrote... ... First, fixed stations, let alone digis, should not use WIDE1-1 anywhere in their own path. A one hop WIDE2-1 path should be used
      Message 2 of 14 , Dec 2, 2011
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        Gil WB2UTI wrote...

        > I have a T2-135 system that I've had for a few years. It has
        > always worked pretty well. It is presently running as a fill-in
        > digi at my house (responding to WIDE1-1 and my call sign,
        > WB2UTI-1)

        First, fixed stations, let alone digis, should not use WIDE1-1
        anywhere in their own path. A one hop WIDE2-1 path should
        be used instead of the two hop WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1 that you
        are using now. There also shouldn't be a need for it to beacon
        as often as it is, and you seem to be sending your PHG in a
        separate transmission.

        Keep in mind that my comment about "beaconing often"
        could be caused by delayed packets going through a nearby
        digi. You could test that by using some time stamped
        beacons sent manually from the T2-135 and then checking
        on aprs.fi.

        http://aprs.fi/?c=raw&call=WB2UTI-1
        2011-12-02 12:24:51 UTC:
        WB2UTI-1>APOT21,K4OZS-10,WIDE1*,WIDE2-1,qAR,KG4YZY-11
        :!2852.92N108200.09W#
        2011-12-02 12:26:13 UTC:
        WB2UTI-1>APOT21,K4OZS-10,WIDE1,WC4PEM-14,WIDE2*,qAR,WF4HEM-13
        :>PHG3130

        > ...it had to have a radio/APRS beacon in it. I manage that with
        > a Kenwood D72 and an external antenna mounted on the cart...
        > I don't seem to be getting digipeated by my own home station
        > and most other digipeater stations are far enough away that I
        > don't usually get heard by them...
        > What is particularly frustrating is that if I hook up the Alinco
        > radio... and track myself... the display map shows every
        > beacon I sent and it traces my path perfectly. But if I go to
        > aprs.fi, I'm lucky to get maybe two position reports (out of
        > 25 - 30) for the same trip. So the radio seems to be
        > hearing and decoding me OK and passing that along to
        > APRSPoint, but more often than not, it's not digipeating
        > me (my path in the D72 is WB2UTI-1,WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1).
        > I have the home station set to beacon occasionally and aprs.fi
        > hears every one of those beacons, so I know that radio is
        > capable of hitting the nearest I-Gate.

        That would be a three hop path. Why not use a generic two
        hop WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1 in the D72, or even a one hop
        WIDE1-1 if the T2-135 is making it to an iGate in one hop
        as often as it would appear? By starting the path with
        WB2UTI-1, the D72 isn't going to be digipeated by
        anything else unless it is heard by WB2UTI-1, but you
        seem to be indicating that the T2-135 consistently hears
        the D72 but isn't digipeating it.

        Also, WIDE1-1 should never be used anywhere except at
        the beginning of a path.

        What is the TX delay on he T2-135? If it was too short, it
        could explain why the digipeated packets aren't being heard,
        but that doesn't seem to make sense as its own beacons are
        being heard, at least by another digi or an iGate, if not by
        the D72.

        > I'm running pretty much the default smart-beacon profile on the
        > D72 radio and the beacons are not more frequent than two minutes
        > or so at the shortest (so I don't think they're coming in too
        > frequently for the digipeater to respond). I only rarely get
        > the acknowledging two tones in the radio to indicate that a
        > digipeater has heard and repeated me and when I do, it's
        > occasionally when some distant digipeater has heard me.

        Any chance that the amplifier is causing a problem? Does
        it use an antenna relay, or does it use something like PIN
        diodes? Bring the D72 into the shack and test it there where
        you can watch the T2-135 to see it transmit right after a
        D72 beacon, and listen for the "digipeated" confirmation
        on the D72.

        > I do hear and decode other stations on my D72 so I think that's
        > working OK. I do get the acknowledgement when I'm close to
        > home, but even then, those beacons don't necessarily show up on
        > aprs.fi (packet collisions on the output of my home station?).

        Break it down into sections. Change the T2-135 over to a one
        hop WIDE2-1 and test that most of the beacons are making it to
        an iGate.

        Also try a two hop WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1 from the D72.

        > As for settings on the T2, I have WIDE1-1 enabled for
        > digipeating as well as digipeating on my call in both profiles
        > (which are identical).

        Do you have profile switching enabled? If so, for what parameters?

        Then check and see if the T2-135 decodes most of the beacons
        from the D72, and see if the D72 can consistently decode the
        T2-135.

        Finally, see if the T2-135 consistently digipeats the D72.
        Listen with another radio. Distorted tones or short transmit
        delays might be apparent by ear.

        http://aprs.fi/?c=raw&call=WB2UTI-7

        One thing seems definite. The D72 isn't making it to an iGate
        very often, and in spite of my thoughts above, it seems to
        need a three hop path.

        73 es cul - Keith VE7GDH
        --
        "I may be lost, but I know exactly where I am!"
      • Scott Miller
        Hi Gil, Try connecting to the T2-135 with a terminal program to watch the traffic. You can also check the INFO command to see if it has digipeated a packet.
        Message 3 of 14 , Dec 2, 2011
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          Hi Gil,

          Try connecting to the T2-135 with a terminal program to watch the
          traffic. You can also check the INFO command to see if it has
          digipeated a packet. And make sure you've got profile switching
          disabled - if you get it set up wrong, it'll dump the RX buffer every
          time it switches profiles.

          If the T2-135 can hear your D72, and the nearest IGate can hear the
          T2-135, then it's most likely a configuration problem.

          Scott

          On 11/30/2011 2:44 PM, Gil wrote:
          > I have a T2-135 system that I've had for a few years. It has always
          > worked pretty well. It is presently running as a fill-in digi at my
          > house (responding to WIDE1-1 and my call sign, WB2UTI-1) using build
          > 55863. The transmitter is running about 9 - 10 Watts out to a 6 dB gain
          > antenna about 15 feet above ground level in my attic (I'm in an antenna
          > restricted community - and if I run much more power, it sets off my
          > smoke alarms - but that's another problem altogether...).
          >
          > My community is also set up for "golf cart" access to almost everywhere,
          > so,naturally, when I got one myself, it had to have a radio/APRS beacon
          > in it. I manage that with a Kenwood D72 and an external antenna mounted
          > on the cart (with enough of a ground plane to get less than 1.5:1 for an
          > SWR). I even recently put a Mirage dual band amplifier into that system
          > to be sure that I was getting enough power out to be heard. I increased
          > the tranmitter delay on the D72 to be sure the amplifier was up to full
          > output before getting the packet data.
          >
          > Here's my problem. When I'm out in that vehicle, most of the time I
          > don't seem to be getting digipeated by my own home station and most
          > other digipeater stations are far enough away that I don't usually get
          > heard by them (that was the whole point of putting up a fill-in digi at
          > my house). What is particularly frustrating is that if I hook up the
          > Alinco radio to APRSPoint (I like the Microsoft maps...) and track
          > myself (WB2UTI-7) when I'm out and about in the golf cart, when I get
          > home and check it, the display map shows every beacon I sent and it
          > traces my path perfectly. But if I go to aprs.fi, I'm lucky to get maybe
          > two position reports (out of 25 - 30) for the same trip. So the radio
          > seems to be hearing and decoding me OK and passing that along to
          > APRSPoint, but more often than not, it's not digipeating me (my path in
          > the D72 is WB2UTI-1,WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1). I have the home station set to
          > beacon occasionally and aprs.fi hears every one of those beacons, so I
          > know that radio is capable of hitting the nearest I-Gate.
          >
          > I'm running pretty much the default smart-beacon profile on the D72
          > radio and the beacons are not more frequent than two minutes or so at
          > the shortest (so I don't think they're coming in too frequently for the
          > digipeater to respond). I only rarely get the acknowledging two tones in
          > the radio to indicate that a digipeater has heard and repeated me and
          > when I do, it's occasionally when some distant digipeater has heard me.
          > I do hear and decode other stations on my D72 so I think that's working
          > OK. I do get the acknowledgement when I'm close to home, but even then,
          > those beacons don't necessarily show up on aprs.fi (packet collisions on
          > the output of my home station?).
          >
          > As for settings on the T2, I have WIDE1-1 enabled for digipeating as
          > well as digipeating on my call in both profiles (which are identical).
          >
          > I understand that packet collisions occur but I would not have expected
          > that to be the majority case for most beacons sent by my mobile station
          > or for my home station. I'm outside the high traffic area where I used
          > to live.
          >
          > Any thoughts on what might be going on here? I know it's probably
          > something obvious that I've overlooked.
          >
          > Thanks,
          >
          > Gil, WB2UTI
          >
          >
        • Gil
          Keith, Thanks for your reply. I have taken some of the steps you ve outlined. I probably knew that I shouldn t have WIDE1-1 in the home station beacon path,
          Message 4 of 14 , Dec 2, 2011
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            Keith,

            Thanks for your reply. I have taken some of the steps you've outlined. I probably knew that I shouldn't have WIDE1-1 in the home station beacon path, but forgot about that. I have changed that to WIDE2-1 and it seems to work. (Actually, it didn't seem to at first, so I put in the call sign of the nearest wide digipeater and had it working that way for a little while, but then decided that shouldn't be necessary so I changed it back to just WIDE2-1 and it does seem to work - through that same digi, K4OZS-10.)

            The T2-135 digi function is set to respond to (now only) WIDE1-1 as is my understanding of a fill-in digi.

            I set the D72's path to WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1. I apparently had that also mistakenly set to WIDE1-1,WIDE2-2 without realizing it (the font size in the display is pretty small...).

            I left the transmit delay on the D72 set to 400 ms (default seems to be 200 ms). I had already increased that to compensate for possible start up delays in the amplifier (it does have a relay).

            I went for a long ride and had similar results to what I saw before. I did get one direct response from a distant digi so I have reason to believe the mobile setup is working, including the amplifier. However, once again, the D72 works fine in the house and I get all the appropriate actions and responses from the home station. But, although the home station hears, decodes, and plots all the beacons the mobile transmits when it's miles away, it digi's very few of them. On that particular excursion, I think two beacons made it to APRSIS and one of those was direct from another digi.

            (If you look through the raw data, you may see some paths that included TEMP1-1 - I happened to go to my mother-in-law's house where my wife showed up in her car with a D700 on board (WB2UTI-8). (My wife is N2FCD but we both use that car often enough that it seemed easier to just use my call...) I wanted to see if I could get that radio to digi the D72, but it didn't do it right off and I didn't want to fiddle with that. My D710 will do it nicely.)

            I do not have profile switching enabled on the T2 and both profiles are identical (I've never been quite convinced I had profile switching under control so it seemed easier just to avoid it).

            I can sit at the computer and beacon the D72, see the T2-135 digipeat it, and see the D72 show up on aprs.fi. I can do the same thing from the garage with the amplifier in line and get the same result.

            What's still puzzling me is that everything works near or at home but not several miles away - even though the T2-135 clearly hears me and decodes the packets at the most distant locations I've tried. Whenever the home station beacons, the D72 hears, decodes, and displays its beacon. Other digi's hear the mobile radio occasionally and properly repeat it suggesting the D72 and the amplifier are working properly. This all seems to rule everything out...

            Aha! Maybe I just found another factor (I've been tinkering while writing this mote). I had the DR-135 radio set to narrow FM - I was under the impression that it was supposed to decode better in that mode. I've changed it to "Wide", which I suspect is not FM broadcast wide but "normal" FM communications width. I'll see if that helps. That's the only thing I can think of at this point.

            Thanks again for your well thought out comments. I appreciate the time it must have taken to sort through that epic posting of mine.

            Gil, WB2UTI
          • Gil
            Hi, Scott. I m not sure if I have profile switching disabled, but I don t have it enabled, that is, I don t have anything checked in the profile switching
            Message 5 of 14 , Dec 2, 2011
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              Hi, Scott.

              I'm not sure if I have profile switching disabled, but I don't have it enabled, that is, I don't have anything checked in the profile switching criteria for either profile. I do have them both identical, but I didn't realize that still might not be enough.

              Perhaps you can comment on the other issue I realized might be involved. I was under the impression that the T2-135 system worked better in Narrow FM mode, which is where I've had it set. I've just now changed it to WIDE to see if that will make any difference, but I'll trust your knowledge of where it should be.

              Gil, WB2UTI

              --- In tracker2@yahoogroups.com, Scott Miller <scott@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Gil,
              >
              > Try connecting to the T2-135 with a terminal program to watch the
              > traffic. You can also check the INFO command to see if it has
              > digipeated a packet. And make sure you've got profile switching
              > disabled - if you get it set up wrong, it'll dump the RX buffer every
              > time it switches profiles.
              >
              > If the T2-135 can hear your D72, and the nearest IGate can hear the
              > T2-135, then it's most likely a configuration problem.
              >
              > Scott
            • qp2trz
              Greetings Everyone. I notice I have the same issues with my Tracker 2 as far as digipeating is concerned; I have followed closely message 13253 and its
              Message 6 of 14 , Jan 6, 2012
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                Greetings Everyone.

                I notice I have the same issues with my Tracker 2 as far as digipeating is concerned; I have followed closely message 13253 and its conversation.
                I have done everything Keith suggested and it still does not digipeat my YAESU.

                Perhaps a little background...

                My first step is to have my Tracker 2 located in my car digipeat my YAESU portable and nobody else (strictly during testing) whilst I am walking my poochies on the Trans-Canada Trail.

                I figure the first step is to have the car digipeat my portable only.

                My portable is hit and miss to the towers direct and I wish to have a better relay to the towers via my car's digipeater.

                I confirm my car receives my portable.
                I confirm my portable receives my car.
                I confirm the towers receive my car.

                I have a terminal program running at the car and confirm the car is decoding the portable.
                The portable decodes the car and the odd tower fine.

                The car's call is VA3GOC-1, the portable's call is VA3GOC.

                The portable's path is WIDE1-1, WIDE2-1
                The car's path (now) is the same.
                I did have it set to Keith's suggestion (WIDE2-1) with no luck.

                I noticed in the User's manual a text command 'DIGI on/off'. I have not set that command but I do have the digipeater enabled using the configuration software.

                Is there a special alias I must use or something with the car's configuration in the Digi menu?

                I test the WIDE2-1 setting at work still with no digipeat of my portable. The car hits the towers fine. The portable is hit and miss to the towers.

                Best Wishes and thank you for any and all help.

                Joey, VA3GOC
              • James Ewen
                ... Okay we know those things are working then. ... Which path did you change as per Keith s suggestion, the car s path or your portable s path? If you NEED
                Message 7 of 14 , Jan 6, 2012
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                  On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 12:11 PM, qp2trz <qp2trz@...> wrote:

                  > I confirm my car receives my portable.
                  > I confirm my portable receives my car.
                  > I confirm the towers receive my car.

                  Okay we know those things are working then.

                  > The portable's path is WIDE1-1, WIDE2-1
                  > The car's path (now) is the same.
                  > I did have it set to Keith's suggestion (WIDE2-1) with no luck.

                  Which path did you change as per Keith's suggestion, the car's path or
                  your portable's path? If you NEED WIDE1-1 in the car's path to be
                  heard, then that will impact the operation of the portable through the
                  car.

                  > I noticed in the User's manual a text command 'DIGI on/off'. I have not
                  > set that command but I do have the digipeater enabled using the configuration software.

                  How is the digipeater enabled with the configuration software? We need
                  to know what you have configured.

                  > Is there a special alias I must use or something with the car's configuration
                  > in the Digi menu?

                  Special in what sense? You will need to have the digipeater set up to
                  digipeat on the desired alias.

                  > I test the WIDE2-1 setting at work still with no digipeat of my portable.

                  Test the WIDE2-1 setting at work with what? Are you setting the path
                  in the portable to WIDE2-1, and trying to hit the main digipeaters
                  direct, or do you have another station at work that you have set up as
                  a digipeater?

                  > The car hits the towers fine. The portable is hit and miss to the towers.

                  With the missing information above, these results might make some sense.

                  DIGI ON is probably the easiest way to test the operation of your car
                  as a digipeater. Set DIGI ON, and then use an outgoing path on the
                  portable of VA3GOC-1,WIDE2-1.

                  This will make the car digipeat the portable station via the callsign
                  of the car. Now, if your car can't be heard by the main digipeaters,
                  you won't get into them with the portable station either. You will
                  however hear your portable station being digipeated by the car.

                  --
                  James
                  VE6SRV
                • Matthias Granberry
                  inline ... VA3GOC-1,WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1 will use the car as the first hop and then use WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1 as the car would normally operate. Matthias
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jan 6, 2012
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                    inline

                    On Friday, January 6, 2012 at 1:55 PM, James Ewen wrote:

                     


                    DIGI ON is probably the easiest way to test the operation of your car
                    as a digipeater. Set DIGI ON, and then use an outgoing path on the
                    portable of VA3GOC-1,WIDE2-1.

                    This will make the car digipeat the portable station via the callsign

                    of the car. Now, if your car can't be heard by the main digipeaters,
                    you won't get into them with the portable station either. You will
                    however hear your portable station being digipeated by the car.


                    VA3GOC-1,WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1 will use the car as the first hop and then use WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1 as the car would normally operate.
                     
                    Matthias
                  • qp2trz
                    My thanks to everyone who replied to my post. I added an alias to the end of the path settings of my portable and added that alias to the tracker 2s alias
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jan 8, 2012
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                      My thanks to everyone who replied to my post.

                      I added an alias to the end of the path settings of my portable and added that alias to the tracker 2s alias list.
                      I then enabled that alias in the digi's alias menu and tadah.
                      I now wonder if I am at the mercy of the car's digipeater or will conventional digis still accept the path as WIDE 1-1, WIDE 2-1, ALIAS when in range.
                      I heard a second acknowledgement only once during the test. My locations of the test were far enough away that a five watt portable would not hit the towers directly.

                      Once again my thanks to Keith, James and Matthias.

                      I love learning stuff.

                      Joey VA3GOC
                    • James Ewen
                      ... If by tadah, you mean you are getting digipeated by the car, then you obviously have preemption turned on. ... If you are preempting on ALIAS in the OT2,
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jan 8, 2012
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                        On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 4:51 PM, qp2trz <qp2trz@...> wrote:

                        > I added an alias to the end of the path settings of my portable and
                        > added that alias to the tracker 2s alias list.
                        > I then enabled that alias in the digi's alias menu and tadah.

                        If by tadah, you mean you are getting digipeated by the car, then you
                        obviously have preemption turned on.

                        > I now wonder if I am at the mercy of the car's digipeater or will
                        > conventional digis still accept the path as WIDE 1-1, WIDE 2-1, ALIAS
                        > when in range.

                        If you are preempting on ALIAS in the OT2, then you won't get
                        digipeated by the conventional digipeaters as the conventional
                        digipeater aliases are before the preempted digipeat alias.

                        Digipeater aliases are used in the order they are found in the list.
                        Digipeaters don't pick and choose randomly (the closest is preemption
                        which can scan down the list skipping some aliases), they work in
                        sequential order.

                        Think of it like a list of places your wife is sending you to. When
                        she says go to the store, the gas station, and then the dry cleaner's,
                        you don't get to choose which one is closest. You HAVE to go to them
                        in that order. No ifs, ands, or buts...

                        With preemption (which is only supported by very few digipeaters), it
                        will look down the list and find the first entry that matches the
                        preemption alias. It will then mark all previous aliases as used up
                        (it has to, that's the way AX.25 works). Using the shopping list
                        scenario above, it would be like you stopped at the dry cleaner's and
                        then went home. The wife wouldn't be too pleased with you.

                        > I heard a second acknowledgement only once during the test. My locations
                        > of the test were far enough away that a five watt portable would not hit the towers directly.

                        That second acknowledgement was probably from a main digipeater
                        somewhere that DID hear you. If you are using preemptive digipeating,
                        none of the other digipeaters will respond once the ALIAS digipeater
                        acts upon the packet.

                        Don't guess at this stuff, LOOK at the packets you are sending around,
                        and see what happens to them as they are handled.

                        --
                        James
                        VE6SRV
                      • John Belsize
                        ... Yes I do. ... Doesn t this cut down on redundant traffic? The portable made it to the car and the car made it to an I-Gate. ... Understood. So what I heard
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jan 8, 2012
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                          >If by tadah, you mean you are getting digipeated by the car, then you
                          >obviously have preemption turned on

                          Yes I do.

                          >If you are preempting on ALIAS in the OT2, then you won't get
                          >digipeated by the conventional digipeaters as the conventional
                          >digipeater aliases are before the preempted digipeat alias.

                          Doesn't this cut down on redundant traffic? The portable made it to the car and the car made it to an I-Gate.

                          >That second acknowledgement was probably from a main digipeater
                          >somewhere that DID hear you. If you are using preemptive digipeating,
                          >none of the other digipeaters will respond once the ALIAS digipeater
                          >acts upon the packet.

                          Understood.
                          So what I heard was the car digipeating me then a main digipeater digipeating me,
                          with the main digipeater (Which is an I-gate) acknowledging  my packet directly.
                          That shouldn't have happened? Because it was transmitted immediately after the car digipeated me?

                          >Don't guess at this stuff, LOOK at the packets you are sending around,
                          >and see what happens to them as they are handled.

                          What I expected was more second acknowledgements as I proceeded closer to the main digipeater.
                          Because I received only one I started wondering if adding the alias at the end of the path made the main digipeaters ignore me.

                          More learning!

                          Once again my thanks to all for your help.
                          I'm amazed the car digipeats my portable at all and the car is still received by conventional sites.

                          Joey  VA3GOC

                        • James Ewen
                          ... Well, previously you said that the car makes it to the towers... I didn t realize that your local digipeater was also an i-gate. If you only need a single
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jan 8, 2012
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                            On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 6:17 PM, John Belsize <qp2trz@...> wrote:

                            > >If you are preempting on ALIAS in the OT2, then you won't get
                            > >digipeated by the conventional digipeaters as the conventional
                            > >digipeater aliases are before the preempted digipeat alias.
                            >
                            > Doesn't this cut down on redundant traffic? The portable made it to the
                            > car and the car made it to an I-Gate.

                            Well, previously you said that the car makes it to the towers... I
                            didn't realize that your local digipeater was also an i-gate. If you
                            only need a single hop to get to your desired destination, then
                            perhaps a path of WIDE2-1,VA3GOC-1 in the portable would be better.
                            The car will preempt as long as it is running and can hear the
                            portable. When the portable is in range of the main digipeaters,
                            you'll be digipeated by them, and then by your car.

                            > >That second acknowledgement was probably from a main digipeater
                            > >somewhere that DID hear you. If you are using preemptive digipeating,
                            > >none of the other digipeaters will respond once the ALIAS digipeater
                            > >acts upon the packet.
                            >
                            > Understood.
                            > So what I heard was the car digipeating me then a main digipeater digipeating me,
                            > with the main digipeater (Which is an I-gate) acknowledging  my packet directly.
                            > That shouldn't have happened? Because it was transmitted immediately after the car digipeated me?

                            The packet from the main digipeater was digipeating what it heard
                            directly, not what it heard via your car.

                            Again, looking at the packets will show you what's happening:

                            I've cut most of the stuff out that we aren't interested in, to focus
                            on what we are interested in...

                            VA3GOC>T3TT1U,WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1,TINYFD,qAR,VE3LSR-4:

                            This first one shows us the outgoing path you are using,
                            WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1,TINYFD. The qAR,VE3LSR-4 shows us who heard you and
                            gated you to the internet.

                            VA3GOC>T3TT1U,WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1,VA3GOC-1*,qAR,VE3LSR-4:

                            In this one, you can see that the TT2 acted upon the TINYFD alias,
                            inserting it's own callsign before the packet was gated to the
                            internet. Be aware that some TNCs will show a * after each used up
                            path, while others only show the * after the last used up alias. It
                            doesn't matter a whole lot, as any path element to the left of the
                            last * is considered used. Since there are no path elements after
                            VA3GOC-1*, there will be no more hops.

                            VA3GOC>T3TT1U,VE3REK,WIDE1,WIDE2-1,VA3GOC-1*,qAR,VE3LSR-4:

                            With this packet you can see that VE3REK acted upon the packet, and
                            then VA3GOC-1 acted upon it using preemption to skip the WIDE2-1 hop
                            request.

                            You're really hitting the APRS network pretty hard... each time you
                            have been active in the last couple days, you've pumped over 60
                            packets per hour into the network, and your speed has only been
                            recorded at a maximum of 6 km/h... Your vehicle is even worse with
                            upwards of 100 packets per hour for many hours, with over 50 packet
                            per hour for 24 hours.

                            You're not going to make many friends like that. Also, try keeping
                            your packets as short as possible. Long packets take up a lot of
                            airtime. Putting long comments that don't mean anything to anyone or
                            provide any useful information again just waste airtime that others
                            could be using.

                            Remember to play nice with the rest of the kids in the sandbox, and
                            share the toys available.

                            > >Don't guess at this stuff, LOOK at the packets you are sending around,
                            > >and see what happens to them as they are handled.
                            >
                            > What I expected was more second acknowledgements as I proceeded
                            > closer to the main digipeater.
                            > Because I received only one I started wondering if adding the alias at
                            > the end of the path made the main digipeaters ignore me.

                            If the main digis can hear you directly, they will digipeat you, but
                            if they hear you only after being digipeated by your car, there's not
                            next hop request, so they don't digipeat you.

                            The better solution is to have the car set up as a digipeater, and
                            change the outgoing path in the portable to use the car alias as the
                            first hop when you want to bounce through the car.

                            If you were around here with those beacon rates, and were not willing
                            to reduce the abusive rates, I'd be working to make all my digipeaters
                            ignore your stations in order to try and allow the digipeater network
                            to survive. If you truly need to know that your vehicle is parked in
                            your driveway every 30 seconds, you really need to look at building
                            your own digipeater network on a separate frequency, and leave 144.390
                            for the hundreds of other users that use reasonable rates.

                            I'm not trying to be a pain, but your stations are hogging the
                            resources in a seriously abusive manner.

                            Packet rate: 27 seconds between packets on average during 1357 seconds.
                            This station is transmitting packets at a high rate, which can cause
                            congestion in the APRS network.

                            http://aprs.fi/info/graphs/a/VA3GOC-1
                            http://aprs.fi/info/graphs/a/VA3GOC

                            Please think about others when setting up your station.

                            --
                            James
                            VE6SRV
                          • John Belsize
                            Thanks James! No need to repeat the packet rate comment again. I only set everything up to this rate to gaurantee throughput that I could analyse and monitor
                            Message 13 of 14 , Jan 9, 2012
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                              Thanks James!

                              No need to repeat the packet rate comment again.

                              I only set everything up to this rate to gaurantee throughput that I could analyse and monitor while testing and learning. Looking at archives from months ago, even with that rate, I hit the towers direct perhaps 2 per-cent of the time . Now that I am digipeated by the car I hit the towers 100 per cent.
                              Even the D-Star guys around here suggested that rate for testing.
                              Now that I can get my packets to the I-gate I'll step back the rate considerably.
                              I've observed from the list that two-minutes is generally accepted.

                              With that in mind, should the car's beacon rate be different from the portable's beacon rate or should they be the same? My portable does not hit the towers directly with any reliability so when I am on foot I will be relying on the car for digipeating.

                              This is a great hobby and I have no intention of being known as anything other than an accepted member.

                              Once again my thanks to you and all that have helped me get my packets on the air.

                              Joey VA3GOC

                              P.S. your reply below I'm printing and reading over and over.



                              From: James Ewen <ve6srv@...>
                              To: tracker2@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Sunday, January 8, 2012 11:23:35 PM
                              Subject: Re: [tracker2] Re: Digipeating Issues

                              On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 6:17 PM, John Belsize <qp2trz@...> wrote:

                              > >If you are preempting on ALIAS in the OT2, then you won't get
                              > >digipeated by the conventional digipeaters as the conventional
                              > >digipeater aliases are before the preempted digipeat alias.
                              >
                              > Doesn't this cut down on redundant traffic? The portable made it to the
                              > car and the car made it to an I-Gate.

                              Well, previously you said that the car makes it to the towers... I
                              didn't realize that your local digipeater was also an i-gate. If you
                              only need a single hop to get to your desired destination, then
                              perhaps a path of WIDE2-1,VA3GOC-1 in the portable would be better.
                              The car will preempt as long as it is running and can hear the
                              portable. When the portable is in range of the main digipeaters,
                              you'll be digipeated by them, and then by your car.

                              > >That second acknowledgement was probably from a main digipeater
                              > >somewhere that DID hear you. If you are using preemptive digipeating,
                              > >none of the other digipeaters will respond once the ALIAS digipeater
                              > >acts upon the packet.
                              >
                              > Understood.
                              > So what I heard was the car digipeating me then a main digipeater digipeating me,
                              > with the main digipeater (Which is an I-gate) acknowledging  my packet directly.
                              > That shouldn't have happened? Because it was transmitted immediately after the car digipeated me?

                              The packet from the main digipeater was digipeating what it heard
                              directly, not what it heard via your car.

                              Again, looking at the packets will show you what's happening:

                              I've cut most of the stuff out that we aren't interested in, to focus
                              on what we are interested in...

                              VA3GOC>T3TT1U,WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1,TINYFD,qAR,VE3LSR-4:

                              This first one shows us the outgoing path you are using,
                              WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1,TINYFD. The qAR,VE3LSR-4 shows us who heard you and
                              gated you to the internet.

                              VA3GOC>T3TT1U,WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1,VA3GOC-1*,qAR,VE3LSR-4:

                              In this one, you can see that the TT2 acted upon the TINYFD alias,
                              inserting it's own callsign before the packet was gated to the
                              internet. Be aware that some TNCs will show a * after each used up
                              path, while others only show the * after the last used up alias. It
                              doesn't matter a whole lot, as any path element to the left of the
                              last * is considered used. Since there are no path elements after
                              VA3GOC-1*, there will be no more hops.

                              VA3GOC>T3TT1U,VE3REK,WIDE1,WIDE2-1,VA3GOC-1*,qAR,VE3LSR-4:

                              With this packet you can see that VE3REK acted upon the packet, and
                              then VA3GOC-1 acted upon it using preemption to skip the WIDE2-1 hop
                              request.

                              You're really hitting the APRS network pretty hard... each time you
                              have been active in the last couple days, you've pumped over 60
                              packets per hour into the network, and your speed has only been
                              recorded at a maximum of 6 km/h... Your vehicle is even worse with
                              upwards of 100 packets per hour for many hours, with over 50 packet
                              per hour for 24 hours.

                              You're not going to make many friends like that. Also, try keeping
                              your packets as short as possible. Long packets take up a lot of
                              airtime. Putting long comments that don't mean anything to anyone or
                              provide any useful information again just waste airtime that others
                              could be using.

                              Remember to play nice with the rest of the kids in the sandbox, and
                              share the toys available.

                              > >Don't guess at this stuff, LOOK at the packets you are sending around,
                              > >and see what happens to them as they are handled.
                              >
                              > What I expected was more second acknowledgements as I proceeded
                              > closer to the main digipeater.
                              > Because I received only one I started wondering if adding the alias at
                              > the end of the path made the main digipeaters ignore me.

                              If the main digis can hear you directly, they will digipeat you, but
                              if they hear you only after being digipeated by your car, there's not
                              next hop request, so they don't digipeat you.

                              The better solution is to have the car set up as a digipeater, and
                              change the outgoing path in the portable to use the car alias as the
                              first hop when you want to bounce through the car.

                              If you were around here with those beacon rates, and were not willing
                              to reduce the abusive rates, I'd be working to make all my digipeaters
                              ignore your stations in order to try and allow the digipeater network
                              to survive. If you truly need to know that your vehicle is parked in
                              your driveway every 30 seconds, you really need to look at building
                              your own digipeater network on a separate frequency, and leave 144.390
                              for the hundreds of other users that use reasonable rates.

                              I'm not trying to be a pain, but your stations are hogging the
                              resources in a seriously abusive manner.

                              Packet rate:    27 seconds between packets on average during 1357 seconds.
                              This station is transmitting packets at a high rate, which can cause
                              congestion in the APRS network.

                              http://aprs.fi/info/graphs/a/VA3GOC-1
                              http://aprs.fi/info/graphs/a/VA3GOC

                              Please think about others when setting up your station.

                              --
                              James
                              VE6SRV


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                            • Gil
                              This is in regard to an older message of mine. I was having trouble with my T2-135 system digipeating my D72 HT. I have since switched off the D72 with my
                              Message 14 of 14 , Jan 13, 2012
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                                This is in regard to an older message of mine. I was having trouble with my T2-135 system digipeating my D72 HT. I have since switched off the D72 with my older D7A. That seems to have made a significant difference in whether I'm digipeated by my own home station (WB2UTI-1). It's much more reliable with the D7 (into the same amplifier and antenna) than the D72 was.

                                Is anyone aware of any difference in the tone quality or de- or pre emphasis situation between the two radios? I'm not aware of any adjustments I can make in the D72 that would affect the tones.

                                Gil, WB2UTI

                                --- In tracker2@yahoogroups.com, Scott Miller <scott@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Hi Gil,
                                >
                                > Try connecting to the T2-135 with a terminal program to watch the
                                > traffic. You can also check the INFO command to see if it has
                                > digipeated a packet. And make sure you've got profile switching
                                > disabled - if you get it set up wrong, it'll dump the RX buffer every
                                > time it switches profiles.
                                >
                                > If the T2-135 can hear your D72, and the nearest IGate can hear the
                                > T2-135, then it's most likely a configuration problem.
                                >
                                > Scott
                                >
                                > On 11/30/2011 2:44 PM, Gil wrote:
                                > > I have a T2-135 system that I've had for a few years. It has always
                                > > worked pretty well. It is presently running as a fill-in digi at my
                                > > house (responding to WIDE1-1 and my call sign, WB2UTI-1) using build
                                > > 55863. The transmitter is running about 9 - 10 Watts out to a 6 dB gain
                                > > antenna about 15 feet above ground level in my attic (I'm in an antenna
                                > > restricted community - and if I run much more power, it sets off my
                                > > smoke alarms - but that's another problem altogether...).
                                > >
                                > > My community is also set up for "golf cart" access to almost everywhere,
                                > > so,naturally, when I got one myself, it had to have a radio/APRS beacon
                                > > in it. I manage that with a Kenwood D72 and an external antenna mounted
                                > > on the cart (with enough of a ground plane to get less than 1.5:1 for an
                                > > SWR). I even recently put a Mirage dual band amplifier into that system
                                > > to be sure that I was getting enough power out to be heard. I increased
                                > > the tranmitter delay on the D72 to be sure the amplifier was up to full
                                > > output before getting the packet data.
                                > >
                                > > Here's my problem. When I'm out in that vehicle, most of the time I
                                > > don't seem to be getting digipeated by my own home station and most
                                > > other digipeater stations are far enough away that I don't usually get
                                > > heard by them (that was the whole point of putting up a fill-in digi at
                                > > my house). What is particularly frustrating is that if I hook up the
                                > > Alinco radio to APRSPoint (I like the Microsoft maps...) and track
                                > > myself (WB2UTI-7) when I'm out and about in the golf cart, when I get
                                > > home and check it, the display map shows every beacon I sent and it
                                > > traces my path perfectly. But if I go to aprs.fi, I'm lucky to get maybe
                                > > two position reports (out of 25 - 30) for the same trip. So the radio
                                > > seems to be hearing and decoding me OK and passing that along to
                                > > APRSPoint, but more often than not, it's not digipeating me (my path in
                                > > the D72 is WB2UTI-1,WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1). I have the home station set to
                                > > beacon occasionally and aprs.fi hears every one of those beacons, so I
                                > > know that radio is capable of hitting the nearest I-Gate.
                                > >
                                > > I'm running pretty much the default smart-beacon profile on the D72
                                > > radio and the beacons are not more frequent than two minutes or so at
                                > > the shortest (so I don't think they're coming in too frequently for the
                                > > digipeater to respond). I only rarely get the acknowledging two tones in
                                > > the radio to indicate that a digipeater has heard and repeated me and
                                > > when I do, it's occasionally when some distant digipeater has heard me.
                                > > I do hear and decode other stations on my D72 so I think that's working
                                > > OK. I do get the acknowledgement when I'm close to home, but even then,
                                > > those beacons don't necessarily show up on aprs.fi (packet collisions on
                                > > the output of my home station?).
                                > >
                                > > As for settings on the T2, I have WIDE1-1 enabled for digipeating as
                                > > well as digipeating on my call in both profiles (which are identical).
                                > >
                                > > I understand that packet collisions occur but I would not have expected
                                > > that to be the majority case for most beacons sent by my mobile station
                                > > or for my home station. I'm outside the high traffic area where I used
                                > > to live.
                                > >
                                > > Any thoughts on what might be going on here? I know it's probably
                                > > something obvious that I've overlooked.
                                > >
                                > > Thanks,
                                > >
                                > > Gil, WB2UTI
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
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