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Packets passing through the same T2 twice

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  • notrobbage
    I wonder why the following would occur. All stations are Tracker2 until VK6RX-1 i-gate running Xastir. It seems VK6RAV-3 hasn t noticed it already dealt with
    Message 1 of 12 , Nov 25, 2011
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      I wonder why the following would occur. All stations are Tracker2 until VK6RX-1 i-gate running Xastir.
      It seems VK6RAV-3 hasn't noticed it already dealt with the two packets. VK6RAV-3 doesn't usually hear VK6RAA-3 with the 350km separation but it's that time of year again.



      2011-11-25 04:30:24 WST: VK6RAA-3>APOT21,VK6RAV-3*,VK6RPT-3*,VK6RAV-3*,WIDE3*,qAR,VK6RX-1:!3439.25S/11738.47E#13.1V 24C
      2011-11-25 06:31:19 WST: VK6RAA-3>APOT21,VK6RAV-3*,VK6RKN-3*,VK6RAV-3*,WIDE3*,qAR,VK6RX-1:!3439.25S/11738.47E#13.0V 23C
    • Lynn W. Deffenbaugh (Mr)
      A possibly better intro question is whether or not the Tracker2 has dupe detection in it s digipeater logic and, if so, how long is the signature (or whole
      Message 2 of 12 , Nov 25, 2011
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        A possibly better intro question is whether or not the Tracker2 has dupe
        detection in it's digipeater logic and, if so, how long is the signature
        (or whole packet?) retained for checking?

        Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32


        On 11/25/2011 3:50 AM, notrobbage wrote:
        > I wonder why the following would occur. All stations are Tracker2 until VK6RX-1 i-gate running Xastir.
        > It seems VK6RAV-3 hasn't noticed it already dealt with the two packets. VK6RAV-3 doesn't usually hear VK6RAA-3 with the 350km separation but it's that time of year again.
        >
        >
        >
        > 2011-11-25 04:30:24 WST: VK6RAA-3>APOT21,VK6RAV-3*,VK6RPT-3*,VK6RAV-3*,WIDE3*,qAR,VK6RX-1:!3439.25S/11738.47E#13.1V 24C
        > 2011-11-25 06:31:19 WST: VK6RAA-3>APOT21,VK6RAV-3*,VK6RKN-3*,VK6RAV-3*,WIDE3*,qAR,VK6RX-1:!3439.25S/11738.47E#13.0V 23C
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • James Ewen
        On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 1:50 AM, notrobbage wrote: You need to point these issues out in big bold print for me! 8) I was going to
        Message 3 of 12 , Nov 25, 2011
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          On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 1:50 AM, notrobbage <vk6ufo@...> wrote:

          You need to point these issues out in big bold print for me! 8) I was
          going to tell you that the packets were different, and sent 2 hours
          apart, but then finally clued in on the double handling by VK6RAV-3...
          It's still early here!

          > It seems VK6RAV-3 hasn't noticed it already dealt with the two packets.

          > 2011-11-25 04:30:24 WST: VK6RAA-3>APOT21,VK6RAV-3*,VK6RPT-3*,VK6RAV-3*,WIDE3*,qAR,VK6RX-1:!3439.25S/11738.47E#13.1V  24C
          > 2011-11-25 06:31:19 WST: VK6RAA-3>APOT21,VK6RAV-3*,VK6RKN-3*,VK6RAV-3*,WIDE3*,qAR,VK6RX-1:!3439.25S/11738.47E#13.0V  23C

          What are the digipeater settings on VK6RAV-3?

          The OT2 does dupe detection, and has a user adjustable dupe time.

          It looks like VK6RAA-3 is using a WIDE3-3 outgoing path, as the other
          packets sent by the station have that path.

          Have a look at other packets around the time of the issues, don't just
          focus on the single packet...

          Here's another issue. It may or may not factor into the problem. I
          don't see how the VK6RPT-3 station could be modifying the payload, but
          if it did somehow, that would cause the double handling.

          Both packets below look the same if you aren't paying attention, but
          the second packet has an extra character on the end of the payload,
          making it a new packet.

          2011-11-24 13:30:18 MST:
          VK6RAA-3>APOT21,WIDE3-3,qAR,VK6SR-5:!3439.25S/11738.47E#13.1V 24C
          2011-11-24 13:30:24 MST:
          VK6RAA-3>APOT21,VK6RAV-3*,VK6RPT-3*,VK6RAV-3*,WIDE3*,qAR,VK6RX-1:!3439.25S/11738.47E#13.1V
          24C

          2011-11-24 13:30:18 MST VK6RAA-3: 66 bytes
          0x00 V K 6 R A A - 3 > A P O T 2 1 , W I D E 3 - 3 , q A R , V K 6 S
          564b365241412d333e41504f5432312c57494445332d332c7141522c564b3653
          0x20 R - 5 : ! 3 4 3 9 . 2 5 S / 1 1 7 3 8 . 4 7 E # 1 3 . 1 V 2
          522d353a21333433392e3235532f31313733382e3437452331332e3156202032
          0x40 4 C
          3443

          2011-11-24 13:30:24 MST VK6RAA-3: 96 bytes
          0x00 V K 6 R A A - 3 > A P O T 2 1 , V K 6 R A V - 3 * , V K 6 R P T
          564b365241412d333e41504f5432312c564b365241562d332a2c564b36525054
          0x20 - 3 * , V K 6 R A V - 3 * , W I D E 3 * , q A R , V K 6 R X - 1
          2d332a2c564b365241562d332a2c57494445332a2c7141522c564b3652582d31
          0x40 : ! 3 4 3 9 . 2 5 S / 1 1 7 3 8 . 4 7 E # 1 3 . 1 V 2 4 C
          3a21333433392e3235532f31313733382e3437452331332e3156202032344320

          If that modification happened in mid-flight, it would make sense as to
          why it was handled twice, but normally the extra character being added
          onto the packet has been prescribed to i-gate software if I'm not
          mistaken. If that is the case, the mystery double handling continues.
          Well, even if that is the case, there's still a mystery afoot!


          --
          James
          VE6SRV
        • Rob
          ... James, I re-configured that digi myself a few months back, so it should be 30 sec dupe time although I can t confirm right now. The digi is difficult to
          Message 4 of 12 , Nov 25, 2011
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            On 25/11/11 22:42, James Ewen wrote:

             

            What are the digipeater settings on VK6RAV-3?

            The OT2 does dupe detection, and has a user adjustable dupe time.


            James, I re-configured that digi myself a few months back, so it should be 30 sec dupe time although I can't confirm right now. The digi is difficult to access physically. If I can work out how to send messages using the repeater group's callsign, I'll do it over the air.
            I monitored the traffic from and through that digi for a couple of days after it was re-configured so I was surprised to see the duplicate handling this late.

            It looks like VK6RAA-3 is using a WIDE3-3 outgoing path, as the other
            packets sent by the station have that path.


            Yeah, all the stations involved are in the country and spread far apart. We're entering ducting season so it will happen more often now.


            Here's another issue. It may or may not factor into the problem. I
            don't see how the VK6RPT-3 station could be modifying the payload, but
            if it did somehow, that would cause the double handling.

            I haven't heard of T2 modifying the payload. I've seen a Kantronics that was removing trailing spaces and causing double traffic for those packets.
            I better check that the DUPETIME is correct first before turning this into a drama :)


            -- 
            Rob, VK6UFO, VK6RN
          • James Ewen
            ... Yeah, but it s pretty darned easy to access remotely. ... Why worry about using the repeater group s callsign... use your own callsign. Your station, your
            Message 5 of 12 , Nov 25, 2011
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              On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 6:16 PM, Rob <vk6ufo@...> wrote:

              > James, I re-configured that digi myself a few months back, so it should be
              > 30 sec dupe time although I can't confirm right now. The digi is difficult to
              > access physically.

              Yeah, but it's pretty darned easy to access remotely.

              > If I can work out how to send messages using the repeater group's callsign,
              > I'll do it over the air.

              Why worry about using the repeater group's callsign... use your own
              callsign. Your station, your callsign. There's no need to use someone
              else's callsign.

              Did you configure the OT2 with your callsign in the AUTHLIST?

              AUTHLIST +/‐<callsign>
              Displays or changes the list of callsigns authorized for remote access.
              +callsign adds a callsign to the list, ‐callsign removes a callsign from the
              list, and ʹnoneʹ erases the entire list. Up to six callsigns can be stored.

              This callsign list can be found in the config GUI under the Access List button.

              You can send commands to the OT2 using plain old APRS messages.

              > I monitored the traffic from and through that digi for a couple of days
              > after it was re-configured so I was surprised to see the duplicate handling this late.

              This is anomalous operations for sure!

              > I haven't heard of T2 modifying the payload. I've seen a Kantronics that was
              > removing trailing spaces and causing double traffic for those packets.

              Yes, the modified duplicates issue is an old beast, but this is new if
              all the stations are OT2 units.

              > I better check that the DUPETIME is correct first before turning this into a drama :)

              You have a copy of your configuration saved locally, do you not?

              --
              James
              VE6SRV
            • Scott Miller
              Yes, 30 seconds by default, or until the hash list fills up. I ll have to see if I can duplicate the problem. If there s any possibility of getting an
              Message 6 of 12 , Nov 25, 2011
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                Yes, 30 seconds by default, or until the hash list fills up. I'll have
                to see if I can duplicate the problem. If there's any possibility of
                getting an off-the-air recording, that would be great.

                Scott

                On 11/25/2011 5:30 AM, Lynn W. Deffenbaugh (Mr) wrote:
                > A possibly better intro question is whether or not the Tracker2 has dupe
                > detection in it's digipeater logic and, if so, how long is the signature
                > (or whole packet?) retained for checking?
                >
                > Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32
                >
                > On 11/25/2011 3:50 AM, notrobbage wrote:
                > > I wonder why the following would occur. All stations are Tracker2
                > until VK6RX-1 i-gate running Xastir.
                > > It seems VK6RAV-3 hasn't noticed it already dealt with the two
                > packets. VK6RAV-3 doesn't usually hear VK6RAA-3 with the 350km
                > separation but it's that time of year again.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > 2011-11-25 04:30:24 WST:
                > VK6RAA-3>APOT21,VK6RAV-3*,VK6RPT-3*,VK6RAV-3*,WIDE3*,qAR,VK6RX-1:!3439.25S/11738.47E#13.1V
                > 24C
                > > 2011-11-25 06:31:19 WST:
                > VK6RAA-3>APOT21,VK6RAV-3*,VK6RKN-3*,VK6RAV-3*,WIDE3*,qAR,VK6RX-1:!3439.25S/11738.47E#13.0V
                > 23C
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ------------------------------------
                > >
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
              • James Ewen
                ... The dupetime was 0... -- James VE6SRV
                Message 7 of 12 , Nov 25, 2011
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                  On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 11:35 PM, Scott Miller <scott@...> wrote:

                  > Yes, 30 seconds by default, or until the hash list fills up.  I'll have
                  > to see if I can duplicate the problem.  If there's any possibility of
                  > getting an off-the-air recording, that would be great.

                  The dupetime was 0...

                  --
                  James
                  VE6SRV
                • Rob
                  ... As James says, the DUPETIME was zero contrary to what the last saved config file shows. Possibly caused by the loose nut between the chair and the
                  Message 8 of 12 , Nov 26, 2011
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                    On 26/11/11 14:35, Scott Miller wrote:
                    > Yes, 30 seconds by default, or until the hash list fills up. I'll have
                    > to see if I can duplicate the problem. If there's any possibility of
                    > getting an off-the-air recording, that would be great.
                    As James says, the DUPETIME was zero contrary to what the last saved
                    config file shows. Possibly caused by the loose nut between the chair
                    and the keyboard, or on air fiddling. On the plus side, I've now
                    experienced operating a T2 over the air and I didn't break anything.

                    --
                    Rob, VK6UFO, VK6RN
                  • steve sharp
                    Interesting! I asked the following question in another forum.... Been tinkering with another T2 and noticed these weird logs 2011-11-22 16:47:57 EST:
                    Message 9 of 12 , Nov 27, 2011
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                      Interesting!

                      I asked the following question in another forum....

                      "Been tinkering with another T2 and noticed these weird logs

                      2011-11-22 16:47:57 EST: VK2ARS-8>APOT21,VK4RGC-3*,WIDE2-2,qAR,VK4FIL-1:/064808h2819.63S/15323.83EU349/006/A=00004613.6V
                      2011-11-22 16:47:57 EST: VK2ARS-8>APOT21,TCPIP*,qAS,VK4OG-1:/064808h2819.63S/15323.83EU349/006/A=00004613.6V
                      2011-11-22 16:48:30 EST: VK2ARS-8>APOT21,VK2RPL-3,WIDE1*,WIDE2-1,qAR,VK4FIL-1:/064840h2819.62S/15323.75EU245/002/A=00000213.7V
                      2011-11-22 16:48:30 EST: VK2ARS-8>APOT21,TCPIP*,qAS,VK4OG-1:/064840h2819.62S/15323.75EU245/002/A=00000213.7V
                      2011-11-22 16:51:03 EST: VK2ARS-8>APOT21,VK4RGC-3*,WIDE2-2,qAR,VK4FIL-1:/065115h2820.32S/15323.85EU186/008/A=00002613.5V
                      2011-11-22 16:51:03 EST: VK2ARS-8>APOT21,TCPIP*,qAS,VK4OG-1:/065115h2820.32S/15323.85EU186/008/A=00002613.5V

                      Can someone explain (in 20 words or less;-) why I'm getting what appears to be a duplicate packet from VK4OG-1 or am I just interpreting this incorrectly?

                      73 Steve VK2ARS (ex-VK2POO)"

                      The reply I received was:
                      "Hi Steve,

                      The "duplicate" packets show up because there is actually a subtle difference between them. Its an unfortunate reality that different I-Gate software behaves differently when handling spaces in messages. This has been discussed on the aprssig group. UI-View strips trailing spaces in incoming messages before it repeats them whereas other software does not. See here:
                      http://www.tapr.org/pipermail/aprssig/2011-April/035989.html

                      In your case, the VK4FIL-1 I-Gate is running UI-View and is stripping the spaces on the end. The VK4OG-1 I-Gate is running AGWTracker which does not strip the spaces. The APRS-IS sees these as two different packets so both get through. If both I-Gates ran the same software, it would overcome the problem. Alternately, if the trailing space was removed from VK2ARS-8 messages, that would solve it too.

                      Cheers ... Gerard, VK2IO"

                      73 Steve

                      --- In tracker2@yahoogroups.com, "notrobbage" <vk6ufo@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I wonder why the following would occur. All stations are Tracker2 until VK6RX-1 i-gate running Xastir.
                      > It seems VK6RAV-3 hasn't noticed it already dealt with the two packets. VK6RAV-3 doesn't usually hear VK6RAA-3 with the 350km separation but it's that time of year again.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > 2011-11-25 04:30:24 WST: VK6RAA-3>APOT21,VK6RAV-3*,VK6RPT-3*,VK6RAV-3*,WIDE3*,qAR,VK6RX-1:!3439.25S/11738.47E#13.1V 24C
                      > 2011-11-25 06:31:19 WST: VK6RAA-3>APOT21,VK6RAV-3*,VK6RKN-3*,VK6RAV-3*,WIDE3*,qAR,VK6RX-1:!3439.25S/11738.47E#13.0V 23C
                      >
                    • Jason KG4WSV
                      ... Not quite. Either would make the problem go away, but to _solve_ the problem, the igate that is running the broken software would need to run some correct
                      Message 10 of 12 , Nov 27, 2011
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                        > If both I-Gates ran the same software, it would overcome the problem. Alternately, if the trailing space was removed from VK2ARS-8 messages, that would solve it too.

                        Not quite.

                        Either would make the problem go away, but to _solve_ the problem, the
                        igate that is running the broken software would need to run some
                        correct software

                        Hint: the one modifying the packet payload is broken.

                        -Jason
                        kg4wsv
                      • Lynn W. Deffenbaugh (Mr)
                        ... Move your cursor CAREFULLY through the pairs of packets. The first ends after the V and the second (the duplicate gated by VK4OG-1) has a trailing
                        Message 11 of 12 , Nov 28, 2011
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                          On 11/27/2011 4:45 PM, steve sharp wrote:
                          > "Been tinkering with another T2 and noticed these weird logs
                          >
                          > 2011-11-22 16:47:57 EST: VK2ARS-8>APOT21,VK4RGC-3*,WIDE2-2,qAR,VK4FIL-1:/064808h2819.63S/15323.83EU349/006/A=00004613.6V
                          > 2011-11-22 16:47:57 EST: VK2ARS-8>APOT21,TCPIP*,qAS,VK4OG-1:/064808h2819.63S/15323.83EU349/006/A=00004613.6V
                          > 2011-11-22 16:48:30 EST: VK2ARS-8>APOT21,VK2RPL-3,WIDE1*,WIDE2-1,qAR,VK4FIL-1:/064840h2819.62S/15323.75EU245/002/A=00000213.7V
                          > 2011-11-22 16:48:30 EST: VK2ARS-8>APOT21,TCPIP*,qAS,VK4OG-1:/064840h2819.62S/15323.75EU245/002/A=00000213.7V
                          > 2011-11-22 16:51:03 EST: VK2ARS-8>APOT21,VK4RGC-3*,WIDE2-2,qAR,VK4FIL-1:/065115h2820.32S/15323.85EU186/008/A=00002613.5V
                          > 2011-11-22 16:51:03 EST: VK2ARS-8>APOT21,TCPIP*,qAS,VK4OG-1:/065115h2820.32S/15323.85EU186/008/A=00002613.5V
                          >
                          > Can someone explain (in 20 words or less;-) why I'm getting what appears to be a duplicate packet from VK4OG-1 or am I just interpreting this incorrectly?

                          Move your cursor CAREFULLY through the pairs of packets. The first ends
                          after the V and the second (the "duplicate" gated by VK4OG-1) has a
                          trailing space. They're different packets, it's just that our
                          computers don't show us the spaces unless we try harder.

                          But the packets gated by VK4OG-1 are "bad" in another way as well.
                          VK2ARS-8 was NOT connected to APRS-IS, but was an RF station (based on
                          the first packet) so why, oh why did VK4OG-1 change the path to TCPIP*?

                          Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32
                        • Randy Love
                          Neither UI-View32 nor AGWTracker is completely correct. AGWTracker doesn t modify the payload, but it does truncate the path replacing all RF path data with
                          Message 12 of 12 , Nov 28, 2011
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                            Neither UI-View32 nor AGWTracker is completely correct.

                            AGWTracker doesn't modify the payload, but it does truncate the path replacing all RF path data with TCPIP* when it gates a packet. Don't know why, but it does.

                            UI-View32 maintains the integrity of the path, but bumbles the payload by stripping trailing spaces..

                            Randy
                            WF5X

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