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Re: [tracker2] Digi: Filter based on distance?

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  • Lynn W. Deffenbaugh (Mr)
    It would only digi packets from the larger surrounding area if those packets are heard DIRECT by your digi. If your digi hears a digipeated packet running
    Message 1 of 28 , Aug 11, 2011
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      It would only digi packets from "the larger surrounding area" if those packets are heard DIRECT by your digi.  If your digi hears a digipeated packet running one of the recommended paths, then the WIDE1-1 at the front will have already been used and your digi will not react to it.

      How many simplex-direct stations do you expect your "mountain top", but still assumably lower antenna, digi to hear that are not coming from the valley?

      The best thing you can do is take your digi out to a similar area and fire it up.  Sit just below it with an APRS receiver/decoder and watch every single packet and see which ones your digi actually digipeats.  I think you'll be pleased with the results if your offroading area is really as far from the bulk of the actual packet sources as I get the impression it is.

      A WIDE1 digi only reacts to directly heard simplex packets, in general, not digiipeated packets.

      Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

      On 8/11/2011 4:54 PM, hamer669@... wrote: My issue with going WIDE1-1 has only been that if my digi is put on a mountain top, it will have good line of site to everything and it would still digi packets heard from the valley, and the larger surrounding area.  I think if I play with antennas, and location, I can reasonably filter it... I will have to get out there and do lots of trial and error. 



      -----Original Message-----
      From: James Ewen <ve6srv@...>
      To: tracker2 <tracker2@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thu, Aug 11, 2011 7:29 am
      Subject: Re: [tracker2] Digi: Filter based on distance?

       
      When you say the OT2 is set to digi your callsign, you mean digipeat
      on the callsign assigned to the digipeater, not digipeat a station
      with your callsign, correct?

      There is a way to drop the unit in place, and have it help boost
      stations out of the valley to the surrounding digipeaters. That is to
      set the unit up where it can hear in the valley, and configure it as a
      WIDE1-1 fill-in digipeater as suggested before.

      If however this is not acceptable, and you REQUIRE digipeating
      restricted to a defined area, then you are out of luck. There's
      nothing out there that will do that currently.

      Sometimes getting what you want means modifying your desires.

      On 8/11/11, hamer669@... <hamer669@...> wrote:
      > The tracker2 is already set to digi my callsign. The whole point of this
      > project is to help other off-roaders that know nothing of my digi. If there
      > is no way to do exactly what I want to do, I wil either limit it to my
      > callsign, or upgrade the solar panel.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: James Ewen <ve6srv@...>
      > To: tracker2 <tracker2@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Thu, Aug 11, 2011 1:59 am
      > Subject: Re: [tracker2] Digi: Filter based on distance?
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 4:09 AM, <hamer669@...> wrote:
      >
      >> If I have read the APRS manuals correctly, if one does this, then
      >> the digis wont digi the packet; the only digi to forward the packet would
      >> be mine.
      >
      > That is correct, but you have already stated that there is 0 APRS
      > coverage in the valley, so no digipeaters can hear the packets anyway.
      >
      >> The digis in the area are going to be looking for WIDEN-n.
      >> If you change the default path and put a proprietary alias...
      >> I don't think local digis would pick it up.
      >
      > That is correct, which is why you would ADD OFFRD1-1 as the first hop
      > request, followed by WIDE2-1 or WIDE2-2. Your digi would act upon the
      > OFFRD1-1, and then the other digis would act upon the WIDE2-N part.
      >
      > The biggest detractor to this is that people seem to think that APRS
      > hardware is set it and forget it hardware. There is a large group that
      > resist having to interact with their gear. Embedded trackers with no
      > way to interface with them enforce this thinking. The users would have
      > to change their outgoing path when they get in the area, and then
      > change it back when they leave.
      >
      > Enabling preemption and using a path such as WIDE2-2,OFFRD1-1,WIDE2-2
      > brings it's own unique issues to the table.
      >
      > --
      > James
      > VE6SRV
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >

      --
      James
      VE6SRV

    • James Ewen
      On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 3:12 PM, Lynn W. Deffenbaugh (Mr) ... Or, you can just sit where you are thinking about putting the digipeater and watch the incoming
      Message 2 of 28 , Aug 11, 2011
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        On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 3:12 PM, Lynn W. Deffenbaugh (Mr)
        <ldeffenb@...> wrote:

        > The best thing you can do is take your digi out to a similar area and fire it up.
        > Sit just below it with an APRS receiver/decoder and watch every single packet
        > and see which ones your digi actually digipeats.

        Or, you can just sit where you are thinking about putting the
        digipeater and watch the incoming packets. Only packets with the first
        hop showing WIDE1-1 will be acted upon by a WIDE1-1 fill-in
        digipeater.

        Here's a guy wandering around the area.

        W6SV>3URVQU,WA6LDQ-3,WIDE1*,WIDE2-1:`.;6l!1k/"@E} 1989 GMC mobile
        This packet would not trigger the fill-in digi because the WIDE1-1 hop
        request has been acted upon by a digipeater. The digipeater that
        handled the packet is also not new-paradigm compliant. WIDE1* shows as
        used up, and the digipeater that handled the packet neglected to
        insert it's callsign.


        W6SV>3URVQU,WA6LDQ-3,WIDE1,KA6PTJ-3*,WIDE2:`.;6l rk/"@K}
        This packet would not trigger the fill-in digi because the WIDE1-1 hop
        request has been acted upon by the WA6LDQ-3 digipeater. It was then
        acted upon by KA6PTJ-3 which responded to the WIDE2-1 request.

        W6SV>3URQXX,WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1:`.=3n!Sk/"A1}
        This packet WOULD trigger your fill-in only digipeater IF it heard
        this packet with the hop requests exactly as seen here, direct from
        the originating station.

        Only packets that are heard with the first hop request of WIDE1-1
        intact will trigger the fill-in digipeater.

        --
        James
        VE6SRV
      • Patrick May
        ... One of the things I think a lot of people are not understanding is what the OP means by the Valley. That s the Southern San Joaquin Valley in California.
        Message 3 of 28 , Aug 11, 2011
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          On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 2:45 PM, James Ewen <ve6srv@...> wrote:
          > On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 3:12 PM, Lynn W. Deffenbaugh (Mr)
          > <ldeffenb@...> wrote:
          >
          >> The best thing you can do is take your digi out to a similar area and fire it up.
          >> Sit just below it with an APRS receiver/decoder and watch every single packet
          >> and see which ones your digi actually digipeats.
          >
          > Or, you can just sit where you are thinking about putting the
          > digipeater and watch the incoming packets. Only packets with the first
          > hop showing WIDE1-1 will be acted upon by a WIDE1-1 fill-in
          > digipeater.
          >
          > Here's a guy wandering around the area.
          >
          > W6SV>3URVQU,WA6LDQ-3,WIDE1*,WIDE2-1:`.;6l!1k/"@E} 1989 GMC mobile
          > This packet would not trigger the fill-in digi because the WIDE1-1 hop
          > request has been acted upon by a digipeater. The digipeater that
          > handled the packet is also not new-paradigm compliant. WIDE1* shows as
          > used up, and the digipeater that handled the packet neglected to
          > insert it's callsign.
          >
          >
          > W6SV>3URVQU,WA6LDQ-3,WIDE1,KA6PTJ-3*,WIDE2:`.;6l rk/"@K}
          > This packet would not trigger the fill-in digi because the WIDE1-1 hop
          > request has been acted upon by the WA6LDQ-3 digipeater. It was then
          > acted upon by KA6PTJ-3 which responded to the WIDE2-1 request.
          >
          > W6SV>3URQXX,WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1:`.=3n!Sk/"A1}
          > This packet WOULD trigger your fill-in only digipeater IF it heard
          > this packet with the hop requests exactly as seen here, direct from
          > the originating station.
          >
          > Only packets that are heard with the first hop request of WIDE1-1
          > intact will trigger the fill-in digipeater.
          >
          > --
          > James
          > VE6SRV
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >

          One of the things I think a lot of people are not understanding is
          what the OP means by "the Valley." That's the Southern San Joaquin
          Valley in California. The area that's he's trying to serve is probably
          an OHV route in a canyon or small valley (just a few miles wide at the
          most). The "fill in" digi would have an effective HAAT of 6,000 feet
          to the south, west and north west. I'm assuming the proposed station
          is probably between Visalia and Bakersfield. At 6,000', he might even
          be seeing into the Mojave Desert through the Tehachapi Range. What
          makes for great voice repeater locations makes for some issues in a
          system like APRS. Voice repeaters are normally on mountains 4,000 to
          6,000'. One is at 7,000' that I know of.

          When I used to run APRS (K6BRW-9, formerly KI6QOH-9) in the truck (GPS
          died) around Fresno/Clovis I would regularly hit a digi east of
          Visalia at 5 watts through a quarter wave. You're talking 60 miles
          easy. One hop (I started running WIDE2-1) is all we need here to hit
          an iGate that might be over 60 miles away. I ran an iGate (Xastir) for
          a while as well. I only pulled a 50 mile radius via APRS-IS, but most
          of the stations on the screen were heard on RF. From San Francisco
          Bay, Sacramento, down to LA, San Diego and even Vegas. I don't
          consider any of those locations local to me. They are all 3+ hours
          away by car.

          Personally I wouldn't run any of the WIDE paths. Run something
          "non-standard" for the path that it will digi and just reach out to
          your local 4x4 and other clubs that might make use of the digi.
        • Lynn W. Deffenbaugh (Mr)
          ... I disagree about the compliance of the digi. I d have to say that this was digipeated by WA6LDQ-3 which decremented the original WIDE1-1 to WIDE1-0,
          Message 4 of 28 , Aug 11, 2011
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            On 8/11/2011 5:45 PM, James Ewen wrote:
            > W6SV>3URVQU,WA6LDQ-3,WIDE1*,WIDE2-1:`.;6l!1k/"@E} 1989 GMC mobile
            > This packet would not trigger the fill-in digi because the WIDE1-1 hop
            > request has been acted upon by a digipeater. The digipeater that
            > handled the packet is also not new-paradigm compliant. WIDE1* shows as
            > used up, and the digipeater that handled the packet neglected to
            > insert it's callsign.

            I disagree about the compliance of the digi. I'd have to say that this
            was digipeated by WA6LDQ-3 which decremented the original WIDE1-1 to
            WIDE1-0, suppressed the zero, and marked WIDE1* used in the
            retransmitted packet.

            A non-new-paradigm digi would have retransmitted one of the following:

            W6SV>3URVQU,WIDE1*,WIDE2-1....
            or
            W6SV>3URVQU,WIDE1-1*,WIDE2-1....

            Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32


            >
            > W6SV>3URVQU,WA6LDQ-3,WIDE1,KA6PTJ-3*,WIDE2:`.;6l rk/"@K}
            > This packet would not trigger the fill-in digi because the WIDE1-1 hop
            > request has been acted upon by the WA6LDQ-3 digipeater. It was then
            > acted upon by KA6PTJ-3 which responded to the WIDE2-1 request.
            >
            > W6SV>3URQXX,WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1:`.=3n!Sk/"A1}
            > This packet WOULD trigger your fill-in only digipeater IF it heard
            > this packet with the hop requests exactly as seen here, direct from
            > the originating station.
            >
            > Only packets that are heard with the first hop request of WIDE1-1
            > intact will trigger the fill-in digipeater.
            >
            > --
            > James
            > VE6SRV
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • James Ewen
            On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 4:25 PM, Lynn W. Deffenbaugh (Mr) ... You re right... I screwed up and copied the wrong packet out of the list... I hurriedly put the
            Message 5 of 28 , Aug 11, 2011
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              On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 4:25 PM, Lynn W. Deffenbaugh (Mr)
              <ldeffenb@...> wrote:


              > I disagree about the compliance of the digi.  I'd have to say that this
              > was digipeated by WA6LDQ-3 which decremented the original WIDE1-1 to
              > WIDE1-0, suppressed the zero, and marked WIDE1* used in the
              > retransmitted packet.

              You're right... I screwed up and copied the wrong packet out of the
              list... I hurriedly put the message together before going for a two
              hour drive to swap out a KPC-9612+ that was in an AVL setup, but
              didn't survive a lightning strike, and then the two hour return
              trip... The digipeater for that setup is co-located with a superior
              OT2 based APRS digipeater... http://aprs.fi/EDSON.

              --
              James
              VE6SRV
            • James Ewen
              On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 4:22 PM, Patrick May ... Well, Chris first described it as a remote valley. The San Joaquin Valley probably wouldn t be considered a
              Message 6 of 28 , Aug 11, 2011
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                On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 4:22 PM, Patrick May
                <blackandredwarrior@...> wrote:

                > One of the things I think a lot of people are not understanding is
                > what the OP means by "the Valley." That's the Southern San Joaquin
                > Valley in California.

                Well, Chris first described it as a remote valley. The San Joaquin
                Valley probably wouldn't be considered a remote valley.

                > The area that's he's trying to serve is probably
                > an OHV route in a canyon or small valley (just a few miles wide at the
                > most).

                There you go... Chris went on to name the valley, Black Gulch (and the
                highway running through it Highway 178), which is not quite the whole
                southern San Joaquin Valley.

                > The "fill in" digi would have an effective HAAT of 6,000 feet
                > to the south, west and north west

                That would require one extremely large tower to get a HAAT of 6000
                feet. Lightner Peak which would look down into Black Gulch is only
                about 6,400 feet ASL. Breckenridge Mountain further away where it
                would not do as good of a job seeing into the Gulch is about 7,500
                feet ASL. The Kern River in the bottom of the Gulch is at about 2100
                feet. To get a Height Above Average Terrain of 6,000 feet, Chris would
                need a tower about 3,000 feet tall on top of Lightner Peak. Notice
                that the "AT" in HAAT stands for Average Terrain, not absolute sea
                level. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Height_above_average_terrain%5d

                > I'm assuming the proposed station
                > is probably between Visalia and Bakersfield.

                Northeast of Bakersfield to be precise.

                > At 6,000', he might even
                > be seeing into the Mojave Desert through the Tehachapi Range. What
                > makes for great voice repeater locations makes for some issues in a
                > system like APRS.

                Hence the many suggestions to NOT place the APRS fill-in digipeater on
                the TOP of a mountain, but rather to use the mountains to shadow it
                from the surrounding area, and to focus it's receive area into the
                valley of interest (Black Gulch).

                > Personally I wouldn't run any of the WIDE paths. Run something
                > "non-standard" for the path that it will digi and just reach out to
                > your local 4x4 and other clubs that might make use of the digi.

                That has also been suggested, but Chris would like the fill-in
                digipeater to be able to boost people out of the valley (Black Gulch)
                without requiring the end users to have to change their mode of
                operation. That would mean that a WIDE1-1 fill-in digipeater down on
                the side of the hill looking into the Black Gulch valley would the the
                "best" solution given the specified parameters.

                --
                James
                VE6SRV
              • hamer669@aol.com
                Well-said, and thank you ALL for your input, it is very valuable. I drove the area last weekend and I found a couple promising locations. I drove all around
                Message 7 of 28 , Aug 11, 2011
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                  Well-said, and thank you ALL for your input, it is very valuable.

                  I drove the area last weekend and I found a couple promising locations.  I drove all around the ridges above black gulch and when I went home, I looked at the GPS track that was captured by the internet servers, and I came across a couple promising areas.

                  http://aprs.fi/?call=kc6wta-12&mt=roadmap&z=11&timerange=604800

                  The peak west of Petite Place has some promising coverage of black gulch, and when I was there, I heard a LOT of traffic.  I did not have a laptop so I was not able to see the traffic, and it could have easily been the three digis in the area.  There were some distant stations in the mix, however.

                  The other issue I am mindful of, but did not mention, is that with multipath and multiple digis relaying the same packet at the same time, causing hetrodyning to stations using the network, me adding a temporary digi to a mountaintop could easily reek havoc on other station's ability to receive telemetry.

                  I think I will build my mobile digi with the OT2 and take it up there this weekend and then see how many digi packets it counts in the INFO string.  That will give me a good indication..





                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: James Ewen <ve6srv@...>
                  To: tracker2 <tracker2@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thu, Aug 11, 2011 8:35 pm
                  Subject: Re: [tracker2] Digi: Filter based on distance?

                   
                  On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 4:22 PM, Patrick May
                  <blackandredwarrior@...> wrote:

                  > One of the things I think a lot of people are not understanding is
                  > what the OP means by "the Valley." That's the Southern San Joaquin
                  > Valley in California.

                  Well, Chris first described it as a remote valley. The San Joaquin
                  Valley probably wouldn't be considered a remote valley.

                  > The area that's he's trying to serve is probably
                  > an OHV route in a canyon or small valley (just a few miles wide at the
                  > most).

                  There you go... Chris went on to name the valley, Black Gulch (and the
                  highway running through it Highway 178), which is not quite the whole
                  southern San Joaquin Valley.

                  > The "fill in" digi would have an effective HAAT of 6,000 feet
                  > to the south, west and north west

                  That would require one extremely large tower to get a HAAT of 6000
                  feet. Lightner Peak which would look down into Black Gulch is only
                  about 6,400 feet ASL. Breckenridge Mountain further away where it
                  would not do as good of a job seeing into the Gulch is about 7,500
                  feet ASL. The Kern River in the bottom of the Gulch is at about 2100
                  feet. To get a Height Above Average Terrain of 6,000 feet, Chris would
                  need a tower about 3,000 feet tall on top of Lightner Peak. Notice
                  that the "AT" in HAAT stands for Average Terrain, not absolute sea
                  level. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Height_above_average_terrain]

                  > I'm assuming the proposed station
                  > is probably between Visalia and Bakersfield.

                  Northeast of Bakersfield to be precise.

                  > At 6,000', he might even
                  > be seeing into the Mojave Desert through the Tehachapi Range. What
                  > makes for great voice repeater locations makes for some issues in a
                  > system like APRS.

                  Hence the many suggestions to NOT place the APRS fill-in digipeater on
                  the TOP of a mountain, but rather to use the mountains to shadow it
                  from the surrounding area, and to focus it's receive area into the
                  valley of interest (Black Gulch).

                  > Personally I wouldn't run any of the WIDE paths. Run something
                  > "non-standard" for the path that it will digi and just reach out to
                  > your local 4x4 and other clubs that might make use of the digi.

                  That has also been suggested, but Chris would like the fill-in
                  digipeater to be able to boost people out of the valley (Black Gulch)
                  without requiring the end users to have to change their mode of
                  operation. That would mean that a WIDE1-1 fill-in digipeater down on
                  the side of the hill looking into the Black Gulch valley would the the
                  "best" solution given the specified parameters.

                  --
                  James
                  VE6SRV
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