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Re: [tracker2] Re: T2-301 not reporting packets sent/heard

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  • Lynn W. Deffenbaugh (Mr)
    You ll have to take questions about how aprs.fi displays various things to the aprs.fi Google Group and ask Hessu directly there. What is displayed at aprs.fi
    Message 1 of 19 , Oct 4, 2010
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      You'll have to take questions about how aprs.fi displays various things
      to the aprs.fi Google Group and ask Hessu directly there. What is
      displayed at aprs.fi is only under the control of that site, not the
      hardware or software routing packets to the APRS-IS.

      Lynn (D) - KJ4ERJ - Author of APRSISCE for Windows Mobile and Win32

      geoff5093 wrote:
      > That is not the issue. The raw packets even show that my digi was the first (and only) digi in the path that it took to APRS-IS. I had a TT4 setup in the same location and that would always show up correctly.
      >
      > That also doesn't explain why it isn't reporting stations that heard my digi.
      >
      > --- In tracker2@yahoogroups.com, James Ewen <ve6srv@...> wrote:
      >
      >> There is no setting to change. Read up on how the APRS-IS works.
      >>
      >> The APRS-IS is heavily filtered. Only the first copy of a packet heard
      >> by the APRS-IS will be seen on the APRS-IS stream.
      >>
      >> Your packet may be passed to the APRS-IS network 20 times through
      >> various routes, but only the first copy heard will show up on sites
      >> such as aprs.fi.
      >>
      >> If you want to see all the copies heard in your area, watch the RF network.
      >>
      >> James
      >> VE6SRV
      >>
      >> On 10/4/10, geoff5093 <geoff1055@...> wrote:
      >>
      >>> Yesterday I setup my T2-301 on a hilltop, and it works great when it comes
      >>> to digipeating packets, however when looking on a site such as aprs.fi it is
      >>> not reporting what stations heard my digi, and it only reports about 50-75%
      >>> of the the packets that it sends to APRS-IS. For instance, when I was
      >>> driving I could hear my digi repeating packets from my mobile, and when
      >>> viewing the APRS-IS info for my mobile, it reports that my digi heard it and
      >>> sent it to an IGate, however my digi doesn't always report as having heard
      >>> me. Is there some sort of setting that needs to be enabled for this?
      >>>
      >>> The digi is KB1POR-2
      >>>
      >>> Thanks!
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> ------------------------------------
      >>>
      >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • James Ewen
      ... Perhaps you can copy some packets that show the issues that you are seeing. Without knowing which stations you are watching, or what paths the packets
      Message 2 of 19 , Oct 4, 2010
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        On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 10:27 AM, geoff5093 <geoff1055@...> wrote:

        > That is not the issue.  The raw packets even show that my
        > digi was the first (and only) digi in the path that it took to
        > APRS-IS.  I had a TT4 setup in the same location and
        > that would always show up correctly.
        >
        > That also doesn't explain why it isn't reporting stations that heard my digi.

        Perhaps you can copy some packets that show the issues that you are seeing.

        Without knowing which stations you are watching, or what paths the
        packets took, we can wander around in circles for a long time.

        Grab some examples that show that you're not being reported properly.

        James
        VE6SRV
      • geoff5093
        Thanks for your help so far guys, if you look at all the raw data here (http://aprs.fi/?c=raw&call=KB1POR-2), you will see that the UNCAN digi and N1HKO IGate
        Message 3 of 19 , Oct 4, 2010
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          Thanks for your help so far guys, if you look at all the raw data here (http://aprs.fi/?c=raw&call=KB1POR-2), you will see that the UNCAN digi and N1HKO IGate heard my digi, however when viewing the info page for my digi (http://aprs.fi/info/a/KB1POR-2) you see that it's not reporting those stations as hearing me, even though it used to work with my TT4.

          Thanks
          Geoff

          --- In tracker2@yahoogroups.com, James Ewen <ve6srv@...> wrote:
          >
          > On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 10:27 AM, geoff5093 <geoff1055@...> wrote:
          >
          > > That is not the issue.  The raw packets even show that my
          > > digi was the first (and only) digi in the path that it took to
          > > APRS-IS.  I had a TT4 setup in the same location and
          > > that would always show up correctly.
          > >
          > > That also doesn't explain why it isn't reporting stations that heard my digi.
          >
          > Perhaps you can copy some packets that show the issues that you are seeing.
          >
          > Without knowing which stations you are watching, or what paths the
          > packets took, we can wander around in circles for a long time.
          >
          > Grab some examples that show that you're not being reported properly.
          >
          > James
          > VE6SRV
          >
        • Keith VE7GDH
          Geoff KB1POR wrote... ... Right... they were beacons sent fro KB1POR-2 using a path of WIDE2-1. ... I think you are right. It should have showed that you were
          Message 4 of 19 , Oct 4, 2010
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            Geoff KB1POR wrote...

            > ...if you look at all the raw data here (http://aprs.fi/?c=raw&call=KB1POR-2),
            > you will see that the UNCAN digi and N1HKO IGate heard my digi...

            Right... they were beacons sent fro KB1POR-2 using a path of WIDE2-1.

            > however when viewing the info page for my digi (http://aprs.fi/info/a/KB1POR-2)
            > you see that it's not reporting those stations as hearing me, even though it
            > used to work with my TT4.

            I think you are right. It should have showed that you were heard direct
            by UNCAN. I don't know why it doesn't show up on aprs.fi. I would have
            also expected it to show that N1HKO-10 had heard you direct. I think
            it is an aprs.fi issue and not a reflection of what actually took place on
            RF. I have no idea why aprs.fi isn't showing you what you would have
            expected it to do.

            If you look at db0anf.de, it will show that 9 stations have been digi'd
            (and then gated) by KB1POR-2, going back to June 29 2009. However,
            most activity is since August 2010.

            www.db0anf.de/app/aprs/stations/digiusers-KB1POR-2

            You could question Hessu about your concerns.

            73 es cul - Keith VE7GDH
            --
            "I may be lost, but I know exactly where I am!"
          • James Ewen
            I can t dig into the packets on my Blackberry, but the issue that you are probably seeing is a manifestation of the unknown variability when using a path of
            Message 5 of 19 , Oct 4, 2010
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              I can't dig into the packets on my Blackberry, but the issue that you
              are probably seeing is a manifestation of the unknown variability when
              using a path of WIDE2-1.

              Hessu has no way of knowing if your original path request was WIDE2-2
              or WIDE2-1. With only one inserted digipeater call in the used up
              WIDE2* path, it is unknown if the digipeater call inserted acted upon
              the first or second hop, and therefore Hessu does not report the
              inserted call as a heard direct station.

              You know that you only asked for 1 hop with a WIDE2-1 path, but
              Hessu's program doesn't know that, and thinks that one of the stations
              that should have handled the packet is missing. Rather than report
              incorrect information, Hessu reports nothing. This is a topic of
              discussion quite often, and I have suggested some ways of possibly
              working around the unknown, but there's no fix in the works yet.

              James
              VE6SRV

              On 10/4/10, Keith VE7GDH <ve7gdh@...> wrote:
              > Geoff KB1POR wrote...
              >
              >> ...if you look at all the raw data here
              >> (http://aprs.fi/?c=raw&call=KB1POR-2),
              >> you will see that the UNCAN digi and N1HKO IGate heard my digi...
              >
              > Right... they were beacons sent fro KB1POR-2 using a path of WIDE2-1.
              >
              >> however when viewing the info page for my digi
              >> (http://aprs.fi/info/a/KB1POR-2)
              >> you see that it's not reporting those stations as hearing me, even though
              >> it
              >> used to work with my TT4.
              >
              > I think you are right. It should have showed that you were heard direct
              > by UNCAN. I don't know why it doesn't show up on aprs.fi. I would have
              > also expected it to show that N1HKO-10 had heard you direct. I think
              > it is an aprs.fi issue and not a reflection of what actually took place on
              > RF. I have no idea why aprs.fi isn't showing you what you would have
              > expected it to do.
              >
              > If you look at db0anf.de, it will show that 9 stations have been digi'd
              > (and then gated) by KB1POR-2, going back to June 29 2009. However,
              > most activity is since August 2010.
              >
              > www.db0anf.de/app/aprs/stations/digiusers-KB1POR-2
              >
              > You could question Hessu about your concerns.
              >
              > 73 es cul - Keith VE7GDH
              > --
              > "I may be lost, but I know exactly where I am!"
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • qp2trz@yahoo.com
              James Forgive me for barging in here. I ve just started playing with packet. Could you please explain briefly the meaning of WIDE 2-1 and WIDE 2-2. Offlist if
              Message 6 of 19 , Oct 5, 2010
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                James

                Forgive me for barging in here.
                I've just started playing with packet. Could you please explain briefly the meaning of WIDE 2-1 and WIDE 2-2.
                Offlist if convenient please.

                Thank you

                Joseph VA3GOC
              • geoff5093
                ... Ah! Thanks, would that also explain why aprs.fi is only showing as KB1POR-2 hearing KB1POR-9 69 times, versus 229 on db0anf (which sounds more like it)?
                Message 7 of 19 , Oct 5, 2010
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                  --- In tracker2@yahoogroups.com, "Keith VE7GDH" <ve7gdh@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Geoff KB1POR wrote...
                  >
                  > > ...if you look at all the raw data here (http://aprs.fi/?c=raw&call=KB1POR-2),
                  > > you will see that the UNCAN digi and N1HKO IGate heard my digi...
                  >
                  > Right... they were beacons sent fro KB1POR-2 using a path of WIDE2-1.
                  >
                  > > however when viewing the info page for my digi (http://aprs.fi/info/a/KB1POR-2)
                  > > you see that it's not reporting those stations as hearing me, even though it
                  > > used to work with my TT4.
                  >
                  > I think you are right. It should have showed that you were heard direct
                  > by UNCAN. I don't know why it doesn't show up on aprs.fi. I would have
                  > also expected it to show that N1HKO-10 had heard you direct. I think
                  > it is an aprs.fi issue and not a reflection of what actually took place on
                  > RF. I have no idea why aprs.fi isn't showing you what you would have
                  > expected it to do.
                  >
                  > If you look at db0anf.de, it will show that 9 stations have been digi'd
                  > (and then gated) by KB1POR-2, going back to June 29 2009. However,
                  > most activity is since August 2010.
                  >
                  > www.db0anf.de/app/aprs/stations/digiusers-KB1POR-2
                  >
                  > You could question Hessu about your concerns.
                  >
                  > 73 es cul - Keith VE7GDH
                  > --
                  > "I may be lost, but I know exactly where I am!"
                  >
                  Ah! Thanks, would that also explain why aprs.fi is only showing as KB1POR-2 hearing KB1POR-9 69 times, versus 229 on db0anf (which sounds more like it)?

                  So the overall recommendation is to change my digi to WIDE2-2 instead of WIDE2-1, correct?
                • James Ewen
                  ... What do you mean by change my digi to WIDE2-2 instead of WIDE2-1 ? Do you mean change the outgoing path used by the digi? Are you changing this outgoing
                  Message 8 of 19 , Oct 5, 2010
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                    On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 7:59 AM, geoff5093 <geoff1055@...> wrote:

                    > So the overall recommendation is to change my digi
                    > to WIDE2-2 instead of WIDE2-1, correct?

                    What do you mean by "change my digi to WIDE2-2 instead of WIDE2-1"?

                    Do you mean change the outgoing path used by the digi?

                    Are you changing this outgoing path just to ensure that you can see
                    who is digipeating your digipeater? That's not really a good reason to
                    add extra load to the local RF network.

                    Remember that digipeaters by nature of the fact that they (should) be
                    situated on a spot with decent LOS to the local area are already 1 hop
                    ahead of the local mobile and home stations, should really use one
                    less hop than the local recommended path.

                    The digipeaters are there to support the regular users. If the
                    infrastructure is making so much noise that the regular users can't be
                    heard, then the infrastructure is degrading the network rather than
                    enhancing it.

                    Yes, adding one more hop to one digipeater won't shut down the
                    network, but if every diigpeater added one more hop, it adds a
                    significant load to the network.

                    If you want to use WIDE2-2 just so that you can see a bigger number on
                    the screen, that's not a truly valid justification.

                    Look at it this way, your digipeater is advertising that it is a
                    fill-in digi. That means that it should only respond to WIDE1-1. How
                    is someone 3 digipeaters away going to make use of that information?
                    The fill-in digipeater really only needs to advertise it's presence to
                    those in direct LOS to itself. Only people that can talk to it
                    directly will be able to use the WIDE1-1 alias hop. Sending packets 1
                    or 2 hops away on a regular basis is the equivalent of SPAMMING the RF
                    network.

                    APRS is not an RF propagation testing network. There are other
                    networks out there that do that kind of thing.

                    I hope this makes sense to you. Putting up a digipeater means you are
                    looking more to help others than to pat yourself on the back and watch
                    the "hits" on the online tallies.

                    James
                    VE6SRV
                  • James Ewen
                    ... Nope, on list means if one other person is wondering the same thing, I ve saved myself having to type this out twice. The way that we configure digipeaters
                    Message 9 of 19 , Oct 5, 2010
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                      On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 5:37 AM, <qp2trz@...> wrote:

                      > Forgive me for barging in here.
                      > I've just started playing with packet. Could you please explain
                      > briefly the meaning of WIDE 2-1 and WIDE 2-2.
                      > Offlist if convenient please.

                      Nope, on list means if one other person is wondering the same thing,
                      I've saved myself having to type this out twice.

                      The way that we configure digipeaters currently has them set up to act
                      upon an alias (WIDEn) with a numeric suffix (-N). As the digipeaters
                      act upon the packets (digipeating them), they also decrement the
                      numeric suffix. Once the numeric suffix reaches zero, the packet is no
                      longer digipeated.

                      For maximum efficiency we also configure home fill-in digipeaters
                      (which are designed to boost low powered trackers and HTs into the
                      main digipeater network) to act upon the WIDE1-1 alias. This is so
                      that the fill-in digipeaters and main digipeaters can all work on the
                      same alias. Home fill in digipeaters however ignore any other WIDEn-N
                      configuration.

                      The intial "n" tagged onto the back of the "WIDE" alias is just a
                      placeholder, which we use to indicate the initial number of hops
                      requested.

                      So, in order to ask for a single hop from a main digipeater, we have
                      to ask for a WIDE2-1 hop. (Remember that fill-in digipeaters only act
                      upon WIDE1-1) This looks like one hop has already been used up, unless
                      you know that the original request was for a single hop.

                      This is a work around to get a single hop out of a main digipeater,
                      and as such it kind of throws a monkey wrench into an otherwise fairly
                      straight forward plan.

                      Hope that clears things up for you. If not ask again, and we'll try
                      and get you straight.

                      James
                      VE6SRV
                    • Keith VE7GDH
                      Geoff KB1POR wrote... ... To re-phrase the answer from James, no. Your digi will function and help mobile stations even if it sends no beacons of its own.
                      Message 10 of 19 , Oct 6, 2010
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                        Geoff KB1POR wrote...

                        > Ah! Thanks, would that also explain why aprs.fi is only showing as
                        > KB1POR-2 hearing KB1POR-9 69 times, versus 229 on db0anf
                        > (which sounds more like it)?
                        >
                        > So the overall recommendation is to change my digi to WIDE2-2
                        > instead of WIDE2-1, correct?

                        To re-phrase the answer from James, no. Your digi will function and help
                        mobile stations even if it sends no beacons of its own. Sending them not too
                        frequently and with a short path should be more than enough to tell local
                        users of the existence of the digi. A "short" path could be no path at all,
                        as well as the one hop path that you are using.

                        73 es cul - Keith VE7GDH
                        --
                        "I may be lost, but I know exactly where I am!"
                      • geoff5093
                        ... I understand that wanting to see the traffic online isn t a reason to cause excess RF traffic, but every other digi in the area has the ability to see
                        Message 11 of 19 , Oct 8, 2010
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                          --- In tracker2@yahoogroups.com, "Keith VE7GDH" <ve7gdh@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Geoff KB1POR wrote...
                          >
                          > > Ah! Thanks, would that also explain why aprs.fi is only showing as
                          > > KB1POR-2 hearing KB1POR-9 69 times, versus 229 on db0anf
                          > > (which sounds more like it)?
                          > >
                          > > So the overall recommendation is to change my digi to WIDE2-2
                          > > instead of WIDE2-1, correct?
                          >
                          > To re-phrase the answer from James, no. Your digi will function and help
                          > mobile stations even if it sends no beacons of its own. Sending them not too
                          > frequently and with a short path should be more than enough to tell local
                          > users of the existence of the digi. A "short" path could be no path at all,
                          > as well as the one hop path that you are using.
                          >
                          > 73 es cul - Keith VE7GDH
                          > --
                          > "I may be lost, but I know exactly where I am!"
                          >
                          I understand that wanting to see the traffic online isn't a reason to cause excess RF traffic, but every other digi in the area has the ability to see online what stations the digi has heard, and what stations heard it. So either everyone is running wrong settings, or there is something specific to my digi that is causing it not to show up. I tested changing the beacon path from WIDE2-1 to WIDE2-2, and that did seem to solve the issue where my digi wasn't reporting who heard me, although it's not ideal to run WIDE2-2. My TT4 I had prior was set to run WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1, is that any better or worse then WIDE2-2?

                          Although another issue that is still present is that my digi is only reporting about 1/3-1/2 of the traffic it digi's and gets sent to APRS-IS. Right now I have the digi function set to WIDE1-1 with 1 hop, preempt and ID enabled.
                        • geoff5093
                          Correction, it s set to WIDE1 with 1 hop. Digipeat on my call is also enabled.
                          Message 12 of 19 , Oct 8, 2010
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                            Correction, it's set to WIDE1 with 1 hop. "Digipeat on my call" is also enabled.

                            --- In tracker2@yahoogroups.com, "geoff5093" <geoff1055@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In tracker2@yahoogroups.com, "Keith VE7GDH" <ve7gdh@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Geoff KB1POR wrote...
                            > >
                            > > > Ah! Thanks, would that also explain why aprs.fi is only showing as
                            > > > KB1POR-2 hearing KB1POR-9 69 times, versus 229 on db0anf
                            > > > (which sounds more like it)?
                            > > >
                            > > > So the overall recommendation is to change my digi to WIDE2-2
                            > > > instead of WIDE2-1, correct?
                            > >
                            > > To re-phrase the answer from James, no. Your digi will function and help
                            > > mobile stations even if it sends no beacons of its own. Sending them not too
                            > > frequently and with a short path should be more than enough to tell local
                            > > users of the existence of the digi. A "short" path could be no path at all,
                            > > as well as the one hop path that you are using.
                            > >
                            > > 73 es cul - Keith VE7GDH
                            > > --
                            > > "I may be lost, but I know exactly where I am!"
                            > >
                            > I understand that wanting to see the traffic online isn't a reason to cause excess RF traffic, but every other digi in the area has the ability to see online what stations the digi has heard, and what stations heard it. So either everyone is running wrong settings, or there is something specific to my digi that is causing it not to show up. I tested changing the beacon path from WIDE2-1 to WIDE2-2, and that did seem to solve the issue where my digi wasn't reporting who heard me, although it's not ideal to run WIDE2-2. My TT4 I had prior was set to run WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1, is that any better or worse then WIDE2-2?
                            >
                            > Although another issue that is still present is that my digi is only reporting about 1/3-1/2 of the traffic it digi's and gets sent to APRS-IS. Right now I have the digi function set to WIDE1-1 with 1 hop, preempt and ID enabled.
                            >
                          • Keith VE7GDH
                            Geoff KB1POR wrote... (back on Oct 8 2010) ... The KB1POR-2 digi is still using a path of WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1. It is a hard rule that no fixed station should be
                            Message 13 of 19 , Oct 17, 2010
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                              Geoff KB1POR wrote... (back on Oct 8 2010)

                              > I understand that wanting to see the traffic online isn't a reason to cause
                              > excess RF traffic, but every other digi in the area has the ability to see
                              > online what stations the digi has heard, and what stations heard it. So
                              > either everyone is running wrong settings, or there is something specific
                              > to my digi that is causing it not to show up. I tested changing the beacon
                              > path from WIDE2-1 to WIDE2-2, and that did seem to solve the issue
                              > where my digi wasn't reporting who heard me, although it's not ideal to
                              > run WIDE2-2. My TT4 I had prior was set to run WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1,
                              > is that any better or worse then WIDE2-2?

                              The KB1POR-2 digi is still using a path of WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1. It is a hard
                              rule that no fixed station should be using a path of WIDE1-1. It should be
                              even more so that a digi should NEVER use a path of WIDE1-1. Fill-in digis
                              are meant to help mobile stations make it to a high WIDEn-N digi if necessary.
                              Your digi indicates that it responds to WIDE1-1 but it also indicates that it is
                              390M HAAT... height above average terrain. Is that true? Keep in mind that
                              HAAT is not the same as ASL... above sea level. Either way, looking at the
                              map, your digi is fairly high up. It is possible that it should be a WIDEn-N
                              digi and not just a fill-in digi only. Being high, it is even more important
                              that it doesn't use a path of WIDE1-1 for its own beacons. If there aren't
                              a lot of fill-in digis in the area, it probably won't make much difference,
                              but why trigger every fill-in digi out to the horizon with its own beacons
                              when it isn't necessary? If yours really is a high digi, change the path for
                              its own beacons to WIDE2-1 and change it so it responds to WIDEn-N
                              and not just WIDE1-1... or if that it what it is already doing, remove the
                              W1 from your beacon comment. Being high, you should probably also
                              respond to SSn-N... with SS being the two letter designator for your state.
                              Is it NH for New Hampshire? If you do this, the symbol should be a star
                              with an S overlay.

                              > Although another issue that is still present is that my digi is only reporting about
                              > 1/3-1/2 of the traffic it digi's and gets sent to APRS-IS. Right now I have the digi
                              > function set to WIDE1-1 with 1 hop, preempt and ID enabled.

                              and you later added...

                              > Correction, it's set to WIDE1 with 1 hop. "Digipeat on my call" is also enabled.

                              See above re my thoughts on what the digi should respond to,

                              Why would you have pre-empt turned on for WIDE1-1? That function should be
                              reserved for non-generic digi aliases... such as TEMP or SAR... and usually not
                              in a high permanently installed digi... e.g. a SAR team could use a path of
                              WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1,SAR and if they are digipeated by the conventional APRS
                              network, that is great. If they are out of range of any conventional digis, and
                              if they brought their own digi that responds to SAR, it could be set for pre-emptive
                              digipeating and to respond to SAR even if the WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1 hadn't
                              already been used. To be useful their digi that responds to SAR would either
                              have to be set up somewhere that they themselves could hear it on RF, or
                              somewhere that could be heard by an IGate.

                              Regarding "what it hears"... you need to be there and either connect a computer
                              to see what it is hearing, or be listening on RF to see what it is digipeating.
                              Looking on the APRS-IS, you see a filtered view of what is making it to the
                              IGates. If a beacon is heard and digipeated (or not) by one or several digis,
                              and is gated by one or several IGates, only the first beacon gated is kept. With
                              30 second dupe checking, any other copies of the beacon that are gated later
                              are discarded. With the simplest example, If two IGates gate a beacon, and
                              one of them is a fraction of a second behind the other in gating that beacon,
                              the second copy will be discarded. When digipeaters are involved, there is
                              the possibility of a digi introducing delays. IGates can also introduce delays.
                              Delays could be caused by a digi holding off digipeating a beacon because
                              the frequency is busy, or the IGate computer could be "slow" or a KPC3+
                              running in KISS mode (for more than a week or two) could be introducing
                              delays. Tracking down the causes of delays and eliminating them when
                              possible is very desirable. However, they will happen. Your digi could be
                              working just fine... or not. Again, you can connect a terminal program to
                              see what it is hearing, or you need to be watching on RF to see what it is
                              digipeating.

                              Also, how often is KB1POR-2 sending its own beacon out? Looking at
                              aprs.fi, I see some beacons less than a minute apart, and others perhaps
                              7 minutes apart, and sometimes gaps of a longer duration. I would hazard
                              a guess that you are beaconing every few minutes (8?) but that one of the
                              nearby IGates is introducing delays... i.e. you are gated right away by
                              one IGate and a minute or so later by another. You could take a closer
                              look at http://aprs.fi/?c=raw&call=KB1POR-2&limit=1000&view=normal
                              Search the page for K1KWP (control-F in most browsers) and see if you
                              would agree. At least some of the time, you are being gated with no path
                              needed at all, so a one hop path for your digis own beacons would probably
                              be reasonable. More than enough to "put you on the map" for anyone looking
                              on the APRS-IS, and being a fairly high digi, between your direct beacons
                              and the ones with a one hop WIDE2-1, your presence should be pretty
                              apparent for anyone looking on RF. Perhaps back the beacon rate off to
                              every 10 minutes. If you can't be talked into a one hop path, then perhaps
                              back it off to every 20 minutes.

                              If you have a "problem" break it down into sections. Start by getting all of
                              the proper settings into the T2-301. Then test it to make sure all is working
                              OK. This will mean either connecting a terminal program to see what it is
                              hearing... and possibly comparing it to what another TNC right beside it
                              with a similar antenna is hearing, or going back and forth between the two
                              TNCs with the radios alternatively connected to the same antenna, or by
                              watching there or elsewhere on RF to see what it is digipeating. Basically,
                              program it first and then see if it is performing up to snuff. That would be
                              a combination of seeing what it is hearing, what it is digipeating, and
                              what is hearing it. Some you can do on the APRS-IS. Some needs to be done
                              on RF. Some can be done only at the site. Some could be done "down in
                              the valley" at your home QTH or down on the highway below.

                              73 es cul - Keith VE7GDH
                              --
                              "I may be lost, but I know exactly where I am!"
                            • geoff5093
                              Thanks for the information, I wasn t able to access my digi this past weekend to make the changes, but I m hoping to reconfigure it on Thursday using the
                              Message 14 of 19 , Oct 19, 2010
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                                Thanks for the information, I wasn't able to access my digi this past weekend to make the changes, but I'm hoping to reconfigure it on Thursday using the points you suggested. The elevation is around 2100', so the HAAT is pretty close to the 1280' slot.

                                I want it to be a WIDE2 digi, but presently the power consumption is too great, I am looking at replacing the 15W solar panel with something much larger to support the battery drain of a W2 digi. It also does support the NH-n path, so I can change the icon to an S overlay instead of D.

                                I believe it was set to beacon every 8-9 minutes, I can change that to 10 or 15 minutes in addition to changing the path to WIDE2-1.

                                My understanding of Preempt was that the digi would look in the entire path for a given path, such as WIDE1, SAR, NH-1, etc. I enabled it on WIDE1 so if someone was running a path of NH-1,WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1, it would still pick it up. Was I right in thinking that?

                                I had to replace the T2-301 with a TT4, since the T2-301 that I just bought is experiencing RX issues. I also can't seem to figure out how to display PHG and the voltage, I have the position set in the position parameters, and if I enter PHG in the comment field it does work, but if I enable voltage reporting it puts the voltage before PHG, so then stations no longer no what my PHG is.

                                --- In tracker2@yahoogroups.com, "Keith VE7GDH" <ve7gdh@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Geoff KB1POR wrote... (back on Oct 8 2010)
                                >
                                > > I understand that wanting to see the traffic online isn't a reason to cause
                                > > excess RF traffic, but every other digi in the area has the ability to see
                                > > online what stations the digi has heard, and what stations heard it. So
                                > > either everyone is running wrong settings, or there is something specific
                                > > to my digi that is causing it not to show up. I tested changing the beacon
                                > > path from WIDE2-1 to WIDE2-2, and that did seem to solve the issue
                                > > where my digi wasn't reporting who heard me, although it's not ideal to
                                > > run WIDE2-2. My TT4 I had prior was set to run WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1,
                                > > is that any better or worse then WIDE2-2?
                                >
                                > The KB1POR-2 digi is still using a path of WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1. It is a hard
                                > rule that no fixed station should be using a path of WIDE1-1. It should be
                                > even more so that a digi should NEVER use a path of WIDE1-1. Fill-in digis
                                > are meant to help mobile stations make it to a high WIDEn-N digi if necessary.
                                > Your digi indicates that it responds to WIDE1-1 but it also indicates that it is
                                > 390M HAAT... height above average terrain. Is that true? Keep in mind that
                                > HAAT is not the same as ASL... above sea level. Either way, looking at the
                                > map, your digi is fairly high up. It is possible that it should be a WIDEn-N
                                > digi and not just a fill-in digi only. Being high, it is even more important
                                > that it doesn't use a path of WIDE1-1 for its own beacons. If there aren't
                                > a lot of fill-in digis in the area, it probably won't make much difference,
                                > but why trigger every fill-in digi out to the horizon with its own beacons
                                > when it isn't necessary? If yours really is a high digi, change the path for
                                > its own beacons to WIDE2-1 and change it so it responds to WIDEn-N
                                > and not just WIDE1-1... or if that it what it is already doing, remove the
                                > W1 from your beacon comment. Being high, you should probably also
                                > respond to SSn-N... with SS being the two letter designator for your state.
                                > Is it NH for New Hampshire? If you do this, the symbol should be a star
                                > with an S overlay.
                                >
                                > > Although another issue that is still present is that my digi is only reporting about
                                > > 1/3-1/2 of the traffic it digi's and gets sent to APRS-IS. Right now I have the digi
                                > > function set to WIDE1-1 with 1 hop, preempt and ID enabled.
                                >
                                > and you later added...
                                >
                                > > Correction, it's set to WIDE1 with 1 hop. "Digipeat on my call" is also enabled.
                                >
                                > See above re my thoughts on what the digi should respond to,
                                >
                                > Why would you have pre-empt turned on for WIDE1-1? That function should be
                                > reserved for non-generic digi aliases... such as TEMP or SAR... and usually not
                                > in a high permanently installed digi... e.g. a SAR team could use a path of
                                > WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1,SAR and if they are digipeated by the conventional APRS
                                > network, that is great. If they are out of range of any conventional digis, and
                                > if they brought their own digi that responds to SAR, it could be set for pre-emptive
                                > digipeating and to respond to SAR even if the WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1 hadn't
                                > already been used. To be useful their digi that responds to SAR would either
                                > have to be set up somewhere that they themselves could hear it on RF, or
                                > somewhere that could be heard by an IGate.
                                >
                                > Regarding "what it hears"... you need to be there and either connect a computer
                                > to see what it is hearing, or be listening on RF to see what it is digipeating.
                                > Looking on the APRS-IS, you see a filtered view of what is making it to the
                                > IGates. If a beacon is heard and digipeated (or not) by one or several digis,
                                > and is gated by one or several IGates, only the first beacon gated is kept. With
                                > 30 second dupe checking, any other copies of the beacon that are gated later
                                > are discarded. With the simplest example, If two IGates gate a beacon, and
                                > one of them is a fraction of a second behind the other in gating that beacon,
                                > the second copy will be discarded. When digipeaters are involved, there is
                                > the possibility of a digi introducing delays. IGates can also introduce delays.
                                > Delays could be caused by a digi holding off digipeating a beacon because
                                > the frequency is busy, or the IGate computer could be "slow" or a KPC3+
                                > running in KISS mode (for more than a week or two) could be introducing
                                > delays. Tracking down the causes of delays and eliminating them when
                                > possible is very desirable. However, they will happen. Your digi could be
                                > working just fine... or not. Again, you can connect a terminal program to
                                > see what it is hearing, or you need to be watching on RF to see what it is
                                > digipeating.
                                >
                                > Also, how often is KB1POR-2 sending its own beacon out? Looking at
                                > aprs.fi, I see some beacons less than a minute apart, and others perhaps
                                > 7 minutes apart, and sometimes gaps of a longer duration. I would hazard
                                > a guess that you are beaconing every few minutes (8?) but that one of the
                                > nearby IGates is introducing delays... i.e. you are gated right away by
                                > one IGate and a minute or so later by another. You could take a closer
                                > look at http://aprs.fi/?c=raw&call=KB1POR-2&limit=1000&view=normal
                                > Search the page for K1KWP (control-F in most browsers) and see if you
                                > would agree. At least some of the time, you are being gated with no path
                                > needed at all, so a one hop path for your digis own beacons would probably
                                > be reasonable. More than enough to "put you on the map" for anyone looking
                                > on the APRS-IS, and being a fairly high digi, between your direct beacons
                                > and the ones with a one hop WIDE2-1, your presence should be pretty
                                > apparent for anyone looking on RF. Perhaps back the beacon rate off to
                                > every 10 minutes. If you can't be talked into a one hop path, then perhaps
                                > back it off to every 20 minutes.
                                >
                                > If you have a "problem" break it down into sections. Start by getting all of
                                > the proper settings into the T2-301. Then test it to make sure all is working
                                > OK. This will mean either connecting a terminal program to see what it is
                                > hearing... and possibly comparing it to what another TNC right beside it
                                > with a similar antenna is hearing, or going back and forth between the two
                                > TNCs with the radios alternatively connected to the same antenna, or by
                                > watching there or elsewhere on RF to see what it is digipeating. Basically,
                                > program it first and then see if it is performing up to snuff. That would be
                                > a combination of seeing what it is hearing, what it is digipeating, and
                                > what is hearing it. Some you can do on the APRS-IS. Some needs to be done
                                > on RF. Some can be done only at the site. Some could be done "down in
                                > the valley" at your home QTH or down on the highway below.
                                >
                                > 73 es cul - Keith VE7GDH
                                > --
                                > "I may be lost, but I know exactly where I am!"
                                >
                              • Keith VE7GDH
                                Geoff KB1POR wrote... ... If your callsign was in the AUTHLIST, you would be able to make the changes remotely by sending APRS messages to the T2-301. ...
                                Message 15 of 19 , Oct 19, 2010
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                                  Geoff KB1POR wrote...

                                  > Thanks for the information, I wasn't able to access my digi this past
                                  > weekend to make the changes, but I'm hoping to reconfigure it on Thursday...

                                  If your callsign was in the AUTHLIST, you would be able to make the changes
                                  remotely by sending APRS messages to the T2-301.

                                  > ...using the points you suggested. The elevation is around 2100', so the
                                  > HAAT is pretty close to the 1280' slot.

                                  There are probably programs for coming up with HAAT, but it can be a bit
                                  subjective coming up with it otherwise. I'm at about 550 feet ASL, but there
                                  are mountains in the 2K range not too far away, and 5-6K a bit further away,
                                  but then again, there's quite an expanse of water on the other side that's
                                  zero (pick your own units) ASL, so do I divide my height above ASL by half
                                  and use that, or take into account the higher terrain on the other side where
                                  there aren't very many roads. Anyway, as long as you have thought it through
                                  and come up with a fairly accurate figure, that's great.

                                  > I want it to be a WIDE2 digi, but presently the power consumption is too
                                  > great, I am looking at replacing the 15W solar panel with something much
                                  > larger to support the battery drain of a W2 digi. It also does support the
                                  > NH-n path, so I can change the icon to an S overlay instead of D.

                                  That's a good point. Power consumption could probably be higher if you
                                  were responding to beacons arriving via other digis as well as ones from
                                  just mobile stations in the immediate vicinity.

                                  > I believe it was set to beacon every 8-9 minutes, I can change that to 10
                                  > or 15 minutes in addition to changing the path to WIDE2-1.

                                  If the frequency isn't too busy, then every 8-9 minutes wouldn't be overkill,
                                  but every 10 minutes with a short path would be pretty usual. One nice
                                  thing about the KPC3+ is that it can send beacons with varying paths
                                  out of the box... e.g. once an hour with a two hop path. another time once
                                  an hour with a one hop path, and the rest of the hour every 10 minutes with
                                  no path at all. Perhaps a future firmware upgrade will at least partially
                                  support a feature like that... e.g. once an hour with a two hop and every 10
                                  minutes with no path.

                                  > My understanding of Preempt was that the digi would look in the entire path
                                  > for a given path, such as WIDE1, SAR, NH-1, etc. I enabled it on WIDE1
                                  > so if someone was running a path of NH-1,WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1, it would still
                                  > pick it up. Was I right in thinking that?

                                  The preemptive setting should never be used for a generic path. Both paths mentioned
                                  above are goofy. With your examples modified, a user should NEVER use a path of
                                  NHn-N,WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1. Only a mobile station should use WIDE1-1 and it should
                                  ONLY be used at the beginning of the path. It would be proper for a mobile station to
                                  use WIDE1-1,NH7-7 if they really wanted to flood a message or beacon to New
                                  Hampshire. A normal way of using the pre-emptive setting would be for a SAR team to
                                  use a path of WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1,SAR. The normal APRS network can chew on the
                                  WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1. If there was a digi within earshot responded to SAR, it would
                                  normally not do so unless the WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1 had already been used, OR unless
                                  that digi was set up for pre-emptive digipeating... i.e. to respond to SAR even if the earlier
                                  part of the path hadn't been used. Again, re-emptive digipeating should never be done
                                  for generic paths like WIDEn-N or NHn-N, including WIDE1-1.

                                  > I had to replace the T2-301 with a TT4, since the T2-301 that I just bought is
                                  > experiencing RX issues. I also can't seem to figure out how to display PHG
                                  > and the voltage, I have the position set in the position parameters, and if I enter
                                  > PHG in the comment field it does work, but if I enable voltage reporting it puts
                                  > the voltage before PHG, so then stations no longer no what my PHG is.

                                  That's too bad about the T2-301. I hope there is a solution. It's a very nice package
                                  with the T2 built right into the radio. I have a couple and I'm very happy with them.

                                  Re voltage and PHG...I thought there was a mention of that a while back, but couldn't
                                  find it. Scott or anyone else - any comment on voltage and PHG?

                                  73 es cul - Keith VE7GDH
                                  --
                                  "I may be lost, but I know exactly where I am!"
                                • Tom
                                  Do you guys know about the FCC on-line calculator for HAAT?   http://www.fcc.gov/mb/audio/bickel/haat_calculator.html   Enter your Lat/Lon and antenna height
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Oct 19, 2010
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                                    Do you guys know about the FCC on-line calculator for HAAT?
                                     
                                     
                                    Enter your Lat/Lon and antenna height above the ground.
                                     
                                    73,
                                    Tom, W3TMC


                                    --- On Tue, 10/19/10, Keith VE7GDH <ve7gdh@...> wrote:

                                    From: Keith VE7GDH <ve7gdh@...>
                                    Subject: Re: [tracker2] Re: T2-301 not reporting packets sent/heard
                                    To: tracker2@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Tuesday, October 19, 2010, 7:11 PM

                                     
                                    Geoff KB1POR wrote...

                                    > Thanks for the information, I wasn't able to access my digi this past
                                    > weekend to make the changes, but I'm hoping to reconfigure it on Thursday...

                                    If your callsign was in the AUTHLIST, you would be able to make the changes
                                    remotely by sending APRS messages to the T2-301.

                                    > ...using the points you suggested. The elevation is around 2100', so the
                                    > HAAT is pretty close to the 1280' slot.

                                    There are probably programs for coming up with HAAT, but it can be a bit
                                    subjective coming up with it otherwise. I'm at about 550 feet ASL, but there
                                    are mountains in the 2K range not too far away, and 5-6K a bit further away,
                                    but then again, there's quite an expanse of water on the other side that's
                                    zero (pick your own units) ASL, so do I divide my height above ASL by half
                                    and use that, or take into account the higher terrain on the other side where
                                    there aren't very many roads. Anyway, as long as you have thought it through
                                    and come up with a fairly accurate figure, that's great.

                                    > I want it to be a WIDE2 digi, but presently the power consumption is too
                                    > great, I am looking at replacing the 15W solar panel with something much
                                    > larger to support the battery drain of a W2 digi. It also does support the
                                    > NH-n path, so I can change the icon to an S overlay instead of D.

                                    That's a good point. Power consumption could probably be higher if you
                                    were responding to beacons arriving via other digis as well as ones from
                                    just mobile stations in the immediate vicinity.

                                    > I believe it was set to beacon every 8-9 minutes, I can change that to 10
                                    > or 15 minutes in addition to changing the path to WIDE2-1.

                                    If the frequency isn't too busy, then every 8-9 minutes wouldn't be overkill,
                                    but every 10 minutes with a short path would be pretty usual. One nice
                                    thing about the KPC3+ is that it can send beacons with varying paths
                                    out of the box... e.g. once an hour with a two hop path. another time once
                                    an hour with a one hop path, and the rest of the hour every 10 minutes with
                                    no path at all. Perhaps a future firmware upgrade will at least partially
                                    support a feature like that... e.g. once an hour with a two hop and every 10
                                    minutes with no path.

                                    > My understanding of Preempt was that the digi would look in the entire path
                                    > for a given path, such as WIDE1, SAR, NH-1, etc. I enabled it on WIDE1
                                    > so if someone was running a path of NH-1,WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1, it would still
                                    > pick it up. Was I right in thinking that?

                                    The preemptive setting should never be used for a generic path. Both paths mentioned
                                    above are goofy. With your examples modified, a user should NEVER use a path of
                                    NHn-N,WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1. Only a mobile station should use WIDE1-1 and it should
                                    ONLY be used at the beginning of the path. It would be proper for a mobile station to
                                    use WIDE1-1,NH7-7 if they really wanted to flood a message or beacon to New
                                    Hampshire. A normal way of using the pre-emptive setting would be for a SAR team to
                                    use a path of WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1,SAR. The normal APRS network can chew on the
                                    WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1. If there was a digi within earshot responded to SAR, it would
                                    normally not do so unless the WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1 had already been used, OR unless
                                    that digi was set up for pre-emptive digipeating... i.e. to respond to SAR even if the earlier
                                    part of the path hadn't been used. Again, re-emptive digipeating should never be done
                                    for generic paths like WIDEn-N or NHn-N, including WIDE1-1.

                                    > I had to replace the T2-301 with a TT4, since the T2-301 that I just bought is
                                    > experiencing RX issues. I also can't seem to figure out how to display PHG
                                    > and the voltage, I have the position set in the position parameters, and if I enter
                                    > PHG in the comment field it does work, but if I enable voltage reporting it puts
                                    > the voltage before PHG, so then stations no longer no what my PHG is.

                                    That's too bad about the T2-301. I hope there is a solution. It's a very nice package
                                    with the T2 built right into the radio. I have a couple and I'm very happy with them.

                                    Re voltage and PHG...I thought there was a mention of that a while back, but couldn't
                                    find it. Scott or anyone else - any comment on voltage and PHG?

                                    73 es cul - Keith VE7GDH
                                    --
                                    "I may be lost, but I know exactly where I am!"
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