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Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography of TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online

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  • Linda E. Milano
    You re thinking military options - I m talking diplomatic. Even in 1910 TR saw it coming. Also, many of the issues that set off Germany in the 1930 s and
    Message 1 of 24 , Dec 15, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      You're thinking military options - I'm talking diplomatic.  Even in 1910 TR saw it coming.
       
      Also, many of the issues that set off Germany in the 1930's and 1940's were a direct result of the peace treaty that ended World War I.
       
      And, even while he was in the White House, TR warned about Japan.  A more active watch might have prevented a lot of problems.
       
      Best,
      Linda Milano
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:22 PM
      Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography of TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online

      I do not agree that TR could have prevented World War One.  The US Navy he would have inherited was only fourth largest and only about half as strong as Germany.  The Army was tiny and any substantial buildup would have been hard for him to justify under prewar conditions.  Unquestionably he would have intervened early and with greater effectiveness than Wilson did; I believe and my research I think supports the view that the difference would have been somewhere between decisive and spectacular.  I do not think there is any doubt that he would have shortened the war and reduced the loss of life by a third to half!
       
      The Peace Treaty would have been more realistic and hence more just.  TR also believed that America and Germany would eventually HAVE to become allies against Russia.  Whether he would have been able to prevent World War II by pre-emptive diplomacy twenty years removed is more questionable -- particularly with rspect to Japan.  However, certainly the history of the Second World War, would have been very different -- it is not even clear what the alignments would have been, let alone anything else.

      --- On Mon, 12/15/08, Linda E. Milano <lemilano@optonline. net> wrote:
      From: Linda E. Milano <lemilano@optonline. net>
      Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography of TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online
      To: tr-m@yahoogroups. com
      Date: Monday, December 15, 2008, 9:14 AM

      TR came home from his 1910 tour through Europe saying that there was going to be a war and that the US would be drawn into it, preaching readiness at that time.  This was especially so after his visit to Kaiser Wilhelm II to review the troops.
       
      Actually, Wilhelm sent TR a series of pictures taken at that event.  Wilhelm had personally written comments about people in the photos on the back of each, most of them highly unflattering.  When his staff realized what he had done, they requested that TR send the photos back, to be replaced by a set of identical photos without the comments.  TR respectfully declined, saying that he would not show the photos to anyone else or disclose the comments.  The photos, with comments, are still at Sagamore Hill, in a wooden box on top of TR's desk in the North Room.
       
      John Gable was always of the opinion that, had he won the 1912 election, TR would have been able to avert World War I - which in turn would have prevented World War II.
       
      At the end of the war, TR wrote a series of letters to European heads of state (especially the King of England) making suggestions about how the peace treaty should be set up.  They can be found in the eight and final book of "The Collected Letters of Theodore Roosevelt."  Again, if his suggestions had been followed, the conditions that led to World War II would have been averted.
       
      Best,
      Linda Milano
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 12:38 AM
      Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography of TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online

      Your comments are interesting and inspiring.  I am actually writing an alternative history of the election of 1912 and the Great War that explores these questions and I sense that your views generally correspond to my own.

      --- On Fri, 12/12/08, Keith Simon <simonamerica@ gmail.com> wrote:
      From: Keith Simon <simonamerica@ gmail.com>
      Subject: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography of TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online
      To: tr-m@yahoogroups. com
      Date: Friday, December 12, 2008, 3:21 PM

      I think that one key to understanding TR was his search for balance
      between the conflicting social and political forces of his time as
      well as his absolute faith in the need for an ordered domestic and
      international community. I think the tragic example of his brother
      Elliot's slide into UN-controlled DIS-order and IM-balance served to
      warn him on a personal level of the of larger social and political
      perils of abandoning public "sanity" for either the anarchists on the
      ultra-left or the so-called "stand patters" on the reactionary right.

      TR was an incredible student of history and also well knew the
      dangers that both the national as well as the international community
      faced at the beginning of the 20th Century. His work to resolve the
      Russo-Japanese War, for example is the direct outgrowth of this
      search for balance and order - in the International Stage. His
      settling of the Coal Strike demonstrates this on the US National
      Stage as well.

      Had he lived and become president in 1912, I believe he would have
      served to prevent Germany from the slide into War. His international
      standing was so great that he might even have been able to mediated a
      peace settlement after the assasination of Arch-Duke Ferdinand of
      Serbia in Sarajevo that touched off World War 1. That's speculation
      to be sure, but Germany's Kaisar stood in awe of Roosevelt and both
      respected him as an international force for good (Speak Softly) as
      well as his willingness to prevent war (The Big Stick). Would that he
      would have been nominated in 1912 by his party. A tremendous loss to
      the World Sanity and Order it twas.

      as well as order --- In tr-m@yahoogroups. com, "jmgallen@.. ."
      <JMGallen@.. .> wrote:
      >
      > Dr. John Gable also warned me of factual distortions in Pringle's
      book.
      > Jim Gallen
      >
      > -- "Patrick J. Healy" <patrickjhealy2001@ ...> wrote:
      >
      > Pringle is a liberal and a neo-liberal at that -- enough said. I am
      > sure, had he lived in TR's time his heroes would have been Eugene
      Debs
      > and William Jennings Bryan
      >
      > --- In tr-m@yahoogroups. com, "Keith Simon" <simonamerica@ > wrote:
      > >
      > > Henry Pringle made a excellent living trying to knock TR off his
      > > proverbial "high horse" in American public opinion in his widely
      read
      > > biography Theodore Roosevelt - A Biography by Henry F. Pringle
      and
      > you
      > > can read it online at the following URL.
      > > http://books. google.com/ books?id= x0WGYBSt2hsC& output=html
      > >
      > > While highly (and deliberately, in my opinion) critical of TR,
      some
      > say
      > > that this book did much to damage TR's reputation which was not
      > really
      > > restored in the public eye until the Edmund Morris 1979
      biography.
      > > Nevertheless, even Morris' biography of TR makes reference to it.
      I
      > > found it useful as a sign of the post-WW1 iconaclast attitude
      common
      > > among the so-called "lost generation." Your thoughts on this book?
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
      > Click here to find the perfect picture with our powerful photo
      search features.
      >
      http://thirdpartyof fers.juno. com/TGL2131/ fc/PnY6rbtzjionM PGA0cWOR4YQN2
      7vRJC9LRS382ZPOPZJT vcZ0bKOC/
      >



    • Linda E. Milano
      That would have just meant that there were two more primaries that would have been set aside... Linda ... From: Patrick Healy To: tr-m@yahoogroups.com Sent:
      Message 2 of 24 , Dec 15, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        That would have just meant that there were two more primaries that would have been set aside...
         
        Linda
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:01 PM
        Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography of TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online

        My book gives TR the 10,000 votes he needed to take two more primaries which would have put him over the top.  The results of removing this pawn from the historical chessboard for America are merely interesting; for the world they are transformational.

        --- On Mon, 12/15/08, Linda E. Milano <lemilano@optonline. net> wrote:
        From: Linda E. Milano <lemilano@optonline. net>
        Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography of TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online
        To: tr-m@yahoogroups. com
        Date: Monday, December 15, 2008, 8:59 AM

        That election was the first time that primaries were ever held - and TR won them.  However, the Republican powers-that- were set aside the primary results and nominated Tart.  They were afraid of TR...
         
        Best,
        Linda Milano
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 12:43 AM
        Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography of TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online

        He came within two primaries and 10,000 votes of defeating Taft and going on to an easy win over Wilson in 1912.   I'm writing a book that explores both the credibility and the consequence of the alternate scenario and the impact on the Great War is enormous.
         
        Although an admirer of TR, I am trying not to "give him any breaks" or take the "easy way out".

        --- On Fri, 12/12/08, jmgallen@juno. com <JMGallen@Juno. com> wrote:
        From: jmgallen@juno. com <JMGallen@Juno. com>
        Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography of TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online
        To: tr-m@yahoogroups. com
        Date: Friday, December 12, 2008, 6:46 PM

        He did live until 1919.  He probably would have been nominated in 1920 had he lived.
        Jim Gallen

        -- "Keith Simon" <simonamerica@ gmail.com> wrote:
        I think that one key to understanding TR was his search for balance
        between the conflicting social and political forces of his time as
        well as his absolute faith in the need for an ordered domestic and
        international community. I think the tragic example of his brother
        Elliot's slide into UN-controlled DIS-order and IM-balance served to
        warn him on a personal level of the of larger social and political
        perils of abandoning public "sanity" for either the anarchists on the
        ultra-left or the so-called "stand patters" on the reactionary right.

        TR was an incredible student of history and also well knew the
        dangers that both the national as well as the international community
        faced at the beginning of the 20th Century. His work to resolve the
        Russo-Japanese War, for example is the direct outgrowth of this
        search for balance and order - in the International Stage. His
        settling of the Coal Strike demonstrates this on the US National
        Stage as well.

        Had he lived and become president in 1912, I believe he would have
        served to prevent Germany from the slide into War. His international
        standing was so great that he might even have been able to mediated a
        peace settlement after the assasination of Arch-Duke Ferdinand of
        Serbia in Sarajevo that touched off World War 1. That's speculation
        to be sure, but Germany's Kaisar stood in awe of Roosevelt and both
        respected him as an international force for good (Speak Softly) as
        well as his willingness to prevent war (The Big Stick). Would that he
        would have been nominated in 1912 by his party. A tremendous loss to
        the World Sanity and Order it twas.

        as well as order --- In tr-m@yahoogroups. com, "jmgallen@.. ."
        <JMGallen@.. .> wrote:
        >
        > Dr. John Gable also warned me of factual distortions in Pringle's
        book.
        > Jim Gallen
        >
        > -- "Patrick J. Healy" <patrickjhealy2001@ ...> wrote:
        >
        > Pringle is a liberal and a neo-liberal at that -- enough said. I am
        > sure, had he lived in TR's time his heroes would have been Eugene
        Debs
        > and William Jennings Bryan
        >
        > --- In tr-m@yahoogroups. com, "Keith Simon" <simonamerica@ > wrote:
        > >
        > > Henry Pringle made a excellent living trying to knock TR off his
        > > proverbial "high horse" in American public opinion in his widely
        read
        > > biography Theodore Roosevelt - A Biography by Henry F. Pringle
        and
        > you
        > > can read it online at the following URL.
        > > http://books. google.com/ books?id= x0WGYBSt2hsC& output=html
        > >
        > > While highly (and deliberately, in my opinion) critical of TR,
        some
        > say
        > > that this book did much to damage TR's reputation which was not
        > really
        > > restored in the public eye until the Edmund Morris 1979
        biography.
        > > Nevertheless, even Morris' biography of TR makes reference to it.
        I
        > > found it useful as a sign of the post-WW1 iconaclast attitude
        common
        > > among the so-called "lost generation." Your thoughts on this book?
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
        > Click here to find the perfect picture with our powerful photo
        search features.
        >
        http://thirdpartyof fers.juno. com/TGL2131/ fc/PnY6rbtzjionM PGA0cWOR4YQN2
        7vRJC9LRS382ZPOPZJT vcZ0bKOC/
        >



        ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ ___
        Save $15 on Flowers and Gifts from FTD!
        Shop now at www.ftd.com/ 17007



      • Patrick J. Healy
        Please do not misunderstand, as I pointed out, the history of BOTH conflicts and indeed the entire period WOULD have been very different. I was only pointing
        Message 3 of 24 , Dec 16, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          Please do not misunderstand, as I pointed out, the history of BOTH
          conflicts and indeed the entire period WOULD have been very
          different. I was only pointing out that the power of the United
          States, then as now, has limits and that therefore there are limits
          to what any American President, including TR, can realistically do.

          You do, however, once again, highlight the difficulty one faces in
          any speculative work. Literally, almost anything is POSSIBLE;
          deciding what is credible is more difficult -- much less what is
          likely to have actually happened. This is particularly true as one
          moves further from the Point of Departure -- in this case the summer
          of 1912.


          --- In tr-m@yahoogroups.com, "Linda E. Milano" <lemilano@...> wrote:
          >
          > You're thinking military options - I'm talking diplomatic. Even in
          1910 TR saw it coming.
          >
          > Also, many of the issues that set off Germany in the 1930's and
          1940's were a direct result of the peace treaty that ended World War
          I.
          >
          > And, even while he was in the White House, TR warned about Japan.
          A more active watch might have prevented a lot of problems.
          >
          > Best,
          > Linda Milano
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Patrick Healy
          > To: tr-m@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:22 PM
          > Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography of
          TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online
          >
          >
          > I do not agree that TR could have prevented World War One.
          The US Navy he would have inherited was only fourth largest and only
          about half as strong as Germany. The Army was tiny and any
          substantial buildup would have been hard for him to justify under
          prewar conditions. Unquestionably he would have intervened early and
          with greater effectiveness than Wilson did; I believe and my research
          I think supports the view that the difference would have been
          somewhere between decisive and spectacular. I do not think there is
          any doubt that he would have shortened the war and reduced the loss
          of life by a third to half!
          >
          > The Peace Treaty would have been more realistic and hence
          more just. TR also believed that America and Germany would
          eventually HAVE to become allies against Russia. Whether he would
          have been able to prevent World War II by pre-emptive diplomacy
          twenty years removed is more questionable -- particularly with rspect
          to Japan. However, certainly the history of the Second World War,
          would have been very different -- it is not even clear what the
          alignments would have been, let alone anything else.
          >
          > --- On Mon, 12/15/08, Linda E. Milano <lemilano@...> wrote:
          >
          > From: Linda E. Milano <lemilano@...>
          > Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical
          Biography of TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online
          > To: tr-m@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Monday, December 15, 2008, 9:14 AM
          >
          >
          > TR came home from his 1910 tour through Europe saying
          that there was going to be a war and that the US would be drawn into
          it, preaching readiness at that time. This was especially so after
          his visit to Kaiser Wilhelm II to review the troops.
          >
          > Actually, Wilhelm sent TR a series of pictures taken at
          that event. Wilhelm had personally written comments about people in
          the photos on the back of each, most of them highly unflattering.
          When his staff realized what he had done, they requested that TR send
          the photos back, to be replaced by a set of identical photos without
          the comments. TR respectfully declined, saying that he would not
          show the photos to anyone else or disclose the comments. The photos,
          with comments, are still at Sagamore Hill, in a wooden box on top of
          TR's desk in the North Room.
          >
          > John Gable was always of the opinion that, had he won the
          1912 election, TR would have been able to avert World War I - which
          in turn would have prevented World War II.
          >
          > At the end of the war, TR wrote a series of letters to
          European heads of state (especially the King of England) making
          suggestions about how the peace treaty should be set up. They can be
          found in the eight and final book of "The Collected Letters of
          Theodore Roosevelt." Again, if his suggestions had been followed,
          the conditions that led to World War II would have been averted.
          >
          > Best,
          > Linda Milano
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Patrick Healy
          > To: tr-m@yahoogroups. com
          > Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 12:38 AM
          > Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical
          Biography of TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online
          >
          >
          > Your comments are interesting and inspiring. I
          am actually writing an alternative history of the election of 1912
          and the Great War that explores these questions and I sense that your
          views generally correspond to my own.
          >
          > --- On Fri, 12/12/08, Keith Simon <simonamerica@
          gmail.com> wrote:
          >
          > From: Keith Simon <simonamerica@ gmail.com>
          > Subject: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical
          Biography of TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online
          > To: tr-m@yahoogroups. com
          > Date: Friday, December 12, 2008, 3:21 PM
          >
          >
          > I think that one key to understanding TR was
          his search for balance
          > between the conflicting social and political
          forces of his time as
          > well as his absolute faith in the need for an
          ordered domestic and
          > international community. I think the tragic
          example of his brother
          > Elliot's slide into UN-controlled DIS-order and
          IM-balance served to
          > warn him on a personal level of the of larger
          social and political
          > perils of abandoning public "sanity" for either
          the anarchists on the
          > ultra-left or the so-called "stand patters" on
          the reactionary right.
          >
          > TR was an incredible student of history and
          also well knew the
          > dangers that both the national as well as the
          international community
          > faced at the beginning of the 20th Century. His
          work to resolve the
          > Russo-Japanese War, for example is the direct
          outgrowth of this
          > search for balance and order - in the
          International Stage. His
          > settling of the Coal Strike demonstrates this
          on the US National
          > Stage as well.
          >
          > Had he lived and become president in 1912, I
          believe he would have
          > served to prevent Germany from the slide into
          War. His international
          > standing was so great that he might even have
          been able to mediated a
          > peace settlement after the assasination of Arch-
          Duke Ferdinand of
          > Serbia in Sarajevo that touched off World War
          1. That's speculation
          > to be sure, but Germany's Kaisar stood in awe
          of Roosevelt and both
          > respected him as an international force for
          good (Speak Softly) as
          > well as his willingness to prevent war (The Big
          Stick). Would that he
          > would have been nominated in 1912 by his party.
          A tremendous loss to
          > the World Sanity and Order it twas.
          >
          > as well as order --- In tr-m@yahoogroups.
          com, "jmgallen@ ."
          > <JMGallen@ .> wrote:
          > >
          > > Dr. John Gable also warned me of factual
          distortions in Pringle's
          > book.
          > > Jim Gallen
          > >
          > > -- "Patrick J. Healy"
          <patrickjhealy2001@ ...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Pringle is a liberal and a neo-liberal at
          that -- enough said. I am
          > > sure, had he lived in TR's time his heroes
          would have been Eugene
          > Debs
          > > and William Jennings Bryan
          > >
          > > --- In tr-m@yahoogroups. com, "Keith Simon"
          <simonamerica@ > wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Henry Pringle made a excellent living
          trying to knock TR off his
          > > > proverbial "high horse" in American public
          opinion in his widely
          > read
          > > > biography Theodore Roosevelt - A Biography
          by Henry F. Pringle
          > and
          > > you
          > > > can read it online at the following URL.
          > > > http://books. google.com/ books?id=
          x0WGYBSt2hsC& output=html
          > > >
          > > > While highly (and deliberately, in my
          opinion) critical of TR,
          > some
          > > say
          > > > that this book did much to damage TR's
          reputation which was not
          > > really
          > > > restored in the public eye until the Edmund
          Morris 1979
          > biography.
          > > > Nevertheless, even Morris' biography of TR
          makes reference to it.
          > I
          > > > found it useful as a sign of the post-WW1
          iconaclast attitude
          > common
          > > > among the so-called "lost generation." Your
          thoughts on this book?
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ____________ _________ _________ _________
          _________ _________ _
          > > Click here to find the perfect picture with
          our powerful photo
          > search features.
          > >
          > http://thirdpartyof fers.juno. com/TGL2131/
          fc/PnY6rbtzjionM PGA0cWOR4YQN2
          > 7vRJC9LRS382ZPOPZJT vcZ0bKOC/
          > >
          >
        • Patrick J. Healy
          That was what I thought at first.....but when I delved into the details of the convention and examined some of the key procedural votes, I found out that in
          Message 4 of 24 , Dec 16, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            That was what I thought at first.....but when I delved into the
            details of the convention and examined some of the key procedural
            votes, I found out that in fact that was a very near thing. It was
            this discovery, that made me decide that this scenario really
            deserved to be more than a short story.

            --- In tr-m@yahoogroups.com, "Linda E. Milano" <lemilano@...> wrote:
            >
            > That would have just meant that there were two more primaries that
            would have been set aside...
            >
            > Linda
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: Patrick Healy
            > To: tr-m@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:01 PM
            > Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography of
            TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online
            >
            >
            > My book gives TR the 10,000 votes he needed to take two
            more primaries which would have put him over the top. The results of
            removing this pawn from the historical chessboard for America are
            merely interesting; for the world they are transformational.
            >
            > --- On Mon, 12/15/08, Linda E. Milano <lemilano@...> wrote:
            >
            > From: Linda E. Milano <lemilano@...>
            > Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical
            Biography of TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online
            > To: tr-m@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Monday, December 15, 2008, 8:59 AM
            >
            >
            > That election was the first time that primaries were ever
            held - and TR won them. However, the Republican powers-that- were
            set aside the primary results and nominated Tart. They were afraid
            of TR...
            >
            > Best,
            > Linda Milano
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: Patrick Healy
            > To: tr-m@yahoogroups. com
            > Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 12:43 AM
            > Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical
            Biography of TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online
            >
            >
            > He came within two primaries and 10,000 votes of
            defeating Taft and going on to an easy win over Wilson in 1912. I'm
            writing a book that explores both the credibility and the consequence
            of the alternate scenario and the impact on the Great War is enormous.
            >
            > Although an admirer of TR, I am trying not
            to "give him any breaks" or take the "easy way out".
            >
            > --- On Fri, 12/12/08, jmgallen@juno. com
            <JMGallen@Juno. com> wrote:
            >
            > From: jmgallen@juno. com <JMGallen@Juno. com>
            > Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly
            Critical Biography of TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online
            > To: tr-m@yahoogroups. com
            > Date: Friday, December 12, 2008, 6:46 PM
            >
            >
            > He did live until 1919. He probably would have
            been nominated in 1920 had he lived.
            > Jim Gallen
            >
            > -- "Keith Simon" <simonamerica@ gmail.com>
            wrote:
            >
            > I think that one key to understanding TR was
            his search for balance
            > between the conflicting social and political
            forces of his time as
            > well as his absolute faith in the need for an
            ordered domestic and
            > international community. I think the tragic
            example of his brother
            > Elliot's slide into UN-controlled DIS-order and
            IM-balance served to
            > warn him on a personal level of the of larger
            social and political
            > perils of abandoning public "sanity" for either
            the anarchists on the
            > ultra-left or the so-called "stand patters" on
            the reactionary right.
            >
            > TR was an incredible student of history and
            also well knew the
            > dangers that both the national as well as the
            international community
            > faced at the beginning of the 20th Century. His
            work to resolve the
            > Russo-Japanese War, for example is the direct
            outgrowth of this
            > search for balance and order - in the
            International Stage. His
            > settling of the Coal Strike demonstrates this
            on the US National
            > Stage as well.
            >
            > Had he lived and become president in 1912, I
            believe he would have
            > served to prevent Germany from the slide into
            War. His international
            > standing was so great that he might even have
            been able to mediated a
            > peace settlement after the assasination of Arch-
            Duke Ferdinand of
            > Serbia in Sarajevo that touched off World War
            1. That's speculation
            > to be sure, but Germany's Kaisar stood in awe
            of Roosevelt and both
            > respected him as an international force for
            good (Speak Softly) as
            > well as his willingness to prevent war (The Big
            Stick). Would that he
            > would have been nominated in 1912 by his party.
            A tremendous loss to
            > the World Sanity and Order it twas.
            >
            > as well as order --- In tr-m@yahoogroups.
            com, "jmgallen@ ."
            > <JMGallen@ .> wrote:
            > >
            > > Dr. John Gable also warned me of factual
            distortions in Pringle's
            > book.
            > > Jim Gallen
            > >
            > > -- "Patrick J. Healy"
            <patrickjhealy2001@ ...> wrote:
            > >
            > > Pringle is a liberal and a neo-liberal at
            that -- enough said. I am
            > > sure, had he lived in TR's time his heroes
            would have been Eugene
            > Debs
            > > and William Jennings Bryan
            > >
            > > --- In tr-m@yahoogroups. com, "Keith Simon"
            <simonamerica@ > wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Henry Pringle made a excellent living
            trying to knock TR off his
            > > > proverbial "high horse" in American public
            opinion in his widely
            > read
            > > > biography Theodore Roosevelt - A Biography
            by Henry F. Pringle
            > and
            > > you
            > > > can read it online at the following URL.
            > > > http://books. google.com/ books?id=
            x0WGYBSt2hsC& output=html
            > > >
            > > > While highly (and deliberately, in my
            opinion) critical of TR,
            > some
            > > say
            > > > that this book did much to damage TR's
            reputation which was not
            > > really
            > > > restored in the public eye until the Edmund
            Morris 1979
            > biography.
            > > > Nevertheless, even Morris' biography of TR
            makes reference to it.
            > I
            > > > found it useful as a sign of the post-WW1
            iconaclast attitude
            > common
            > > > among the so-called "lost generation." Your
            thoughts on this book?
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ____________ _________ _________ _________
            _________ _________ _
            > > Click here to find the perfect picture with
            our powerful photo
            > search features.
            > >
            > http://thirdpartyof fers.juno. com/TGL2131/
            fc/PnY6rbtzjionM PGA0cWOR4YQN2
            > 7vRJC9LRS382ZPOPZJT vcZ0bKOC/
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ____________ _________ _________ _________
            _________ _________ ___
            > Save $15 on Flowers and Gifts from FTD!
            > Shop now at www.ftd.com/ 17007
            >
          • Linda E. Milano
            You missed the point - the Republican hierarchy would not have given him the nomination, no matter what. A better scenario would have been for him to win on
            Message 5 of 24 , Dec 16, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              You missed the point - the Republican hierarchy would not have given him the nomination, no matter what.  A better scenario would have been for him to win on the Progressive / Bull Moose ticket.  A lot of the voters who voted for Taft did so only because they wouldn't cross party lines.  IF they had voted for TR, he would have won - and established a viable third party.  Now THAT would be an interesting concept to explore.
               
              Best,
              Linda Milano
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 7:40 AM
              Subject: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography of TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online

              That was what I thought at first.....but when I delved into the
              details of the convention and examined some of the key procedural
              votes, I found out that in fact that was a very near thing. It was
              this discovery, that made me decide that this scenario really
              deserved to be more than a short story.

              --- In tr-m@yahoogroups. com, "Linda E. Milano" <lemilano@.. .> wrote:
              >
              > That would have just meant that there were two more primaries that
              would have been set aside...
              >
              > Linda
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Patrick Healy
              > To: tr-m@yahoogroups. com
              > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:01 PM
              > Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography of
              TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online
              >
              >
              > My book gives TR the 10,000 votes he needed to take two
              more primaries which would have put him over the top. The results of
              removing this pawn from the historical chessboard for America are
              merely interesting; for the world they are transformational.
              >
              > --- On Mon, 12/15/08, Linda E. Milano <lemilano@.. .> wrote:
              >
              > From: Linda E. Milano <lemilano@.. .>
              > Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical
              Biography of TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online
              > To: tr-m@yahoogroups. com
              > Date: Monday, December 15, 2008, 8:59 AM
              >
              >
              > That election was the first time that primaries were ever
              held - and TR won them. However, the Republican powers-that- were
              set aside the primary results and nominated Tart. They were afraid
              of TR...
              >
              > Best,
              > Linda Milano
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Patrick Healy
              > To: tr-m@yahoogroups. com
              > Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 12:43 AM
              > Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical
              Biography of TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online
              >
              >
              > He came within two primaries and 10,000 votes of
              defeating Taft and going on to an easy win over Wilson in 1912. I'm
              writing a book that explores both the credibility and the consequence
              of the alternate scenario and the impact on the Great War is enormous.
              >
              > Although an admirer of TR, I am trying not
              to "give him any breaks" or take the "easy way out".
              >
              > --- On Fri, 12/12/08, jmgallen@juno. com
              <JMGallen@Juno. com> wrote:
              >
              > From: jmgallen@juno. com <JMGallen@Juno. com>
              > Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly
              Critical Biography of TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online
              > To: tr-m@yahoogroups. com
              > Date: Friday, December 12, 2008, 6:46 PM
              >
              >
              > He did live until 1919. He probably would have
              been nominated in 1920 had he lived.
              > Jim Gallen
              >
              > -- "Keith Simon" <simonamerica@ gmail.com>
              wrote:
              >
              > I think that one key to understanding TR was
              his search for balance
              > between the conflicting social and political
              forces of his time as
              > well as his absolute faith in the need for an
              ordered domestic and
              > international community. I think the tragic
              example of his brother
              > Elliot's slide into UN-controlled DIS-order and
              IM-balance served to
              > warn him on a personal level of the of larger
              social and political
              > perils of abandoning public "sanity" for either
              the anarchists on the
              > ultra-left or the so-called "stand patters" on
              the reactionary right.
              >
              > TR was an incredible student of history and
              also well knew the
              > dangers that both the national as well as the
              international community
              > faced at the beginning of the 20th Century. His
              work to resolve the
              > Russo-Japanese War, for example is the direct
              outgrowth of this
              > search for balance and order - in the
              International Stage. His
              > settling of the Coal Strike demonstrates this
              on the US National
              > Stage as well.
              >
              > Had he lived and become president in 1912, I
              believe he would have
              > served to prevent Germany from the slide into
              War. His international
              > standing was so great that he might even have
              been able to mediated a
              > peace settlement after the assasination of Arch-
              Duke Ferdinand of
              > Serbia in Sarajevo that touched off World War
              1. That's speculation
              > to be sure, but Germany's Kaisar stood in awe
              of Roosevelt and both
              > respected him as an international force for
              good (Speak Softly) as
              > well as his willingness to prevent war (The Big
              Stick). Would that he
              > would have been nominated in 1912 by his party.
              A tremendous loss to
              > the World Sanity and Order it twas.
              >
              > as well as order --- In tr-m@yahoogroups.
              com, "jmgallen@ ."
              > <JMGallen@ .> wrote:
              > >
              > > Dr. John Gable also warned me of factual
              distortions in Pringle's
              > book.
              > > Jim Gallen
              > >
              > > -- "Patrick J. Healy"
              <patrickjhealy2001@ ...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Pringle is a liberal and a neo-liberal at
              that -- enough said. I am
              > > sure, had he lived in TR's time his heroes
              would have been Eugene
              > Debs
              > > and William Jennings Bryan
              > >
              > > --- In tr-m@yahoogroups. com, "Keith Simon"
              <simonamerica@ > wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Henry Pringle made a excellent living
              trying to knock TR off his
              > > > proverbial "high horse" in American public
              opinion in his widely
              > read
              > > > biography Theodore Roosevelt - A Biography
              by Henry F. Pringle
              > and
              > > you
              > > > can read it online at the following URL.
              > > > http://books. google.com/ books?id=
              x0WGYBSt2hsC& output=html
              > > >
              > > > While highly (and deliberately, in my
              opinion) critical of TR,
              > some
              > > say
              > > > that this book did much to damage TR's
              reputation which was not
              > > really
              > > > restored in the public eye until the Edmund
              Morris 1979
              > biography.
              > > > Nevertheless, even Morris' biography of TR
              makes reference to it.
              > I
              > > > found it useful as a sign of the post-WW1
              iconaclast attitude
              > common
              > > > among the so-called "lost generation." Your
              thoughts on this book?
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ____________ _________ _________ _________
              _________ _________ _
              > > Click here to find the perfect picture with
              our powerful photo
              > search features.
              > >
              > http://thirdpartyof fers.juno. com/TGL2131/
              fc/PnY6rbtzjionM PGA0cWOR4YQN2
              > 7vRJC9LRS382ZPOPZJT vcZ0bKOC/
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ____________ _________ _________ _________
              _________ _________ ___
              > Save $15 on Flowers and Gifts from FTD!
              > Shop now at www.ftd.com/ 17007
              >

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