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Thanks for the Great Ideas Expressed on Theodore Roosevelt

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  • Keith Simon
    Patrick What a GREAT parallel history concept! Gallipolli, ,Savros Bay, Inchon landing (minus any counterpart of Wolmi-Do Island (yup - no such dramatic tidal
    Message 1 of 24 , Dec 14, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      Patrick

      What a GREAT parallel history concept!

      Gallipolli, ,Savros Bay, Inchon landing (minus any counterpart of
      Wolmi-Do Island (yup - no such dramatic tidal fluctuations at
      Gallipolli as in the Inchon attack),Asquith. Verdun, le mot de
      Cambronne, the St Michiel Salient, Metz and the Sedan, Jutland, the
      Kriegsmarine, the Battle of the Somme-Passchendale, Aisne, Michael as
      Czar; Kerenksy becomes Prime Minister? Wowie Zowie! Incredible
      stuff, but I'm not sure the average Joe or Jane will turn off
      American Idol and to dive into such a book. I'm sure legions of
      history fans, amatuer as well as professional will really have fun
      with such a book! And "I" will certainly eat it up! So keep at it,
      man!

      And congratulations on both your work and Dr./Commander Hendrix's
      work in progress. These great reports really make me proud to be
      associated in some way with the people that have joined this group -
      whether or not they are active contributors to the posts.

      Mr Gallen's comments on Dr. Gable's study were really useful. I
      didn't even know he undertook such a study - that's because I'm a
      POST Gable student of TR, unfortunately. This is why I also
      appreciate the great contributions and ideas expressed by Linda
      Milano and other friends of Dr. John. I consider it a personal
      tragedy of mine, that the Theodore Roosevelt Association Folks came
      out here to Portland, OR for their 2005 Annual Meeting and here I
      was - not a half hour away from a group I didn't even know existed!!!
      This is why I'm so adamant about getting the word out to potential
      members both of this group as well as the Theodore Roosevelt
      Association which can be found at www.theodoreroosevelt.org URL.

      Thanks to Harry Lembeck and the other recent contributors as well.

      Keith

      This is something I really love about this group that - the
      companionship of people who both admire as well as appreciate the
      enormous scope of Theodore Roosevelt!


      --- In tr-m@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Healy <patrickjhealy2001@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Actually, the Serbians start the war in both scenarios (supporters
      of Serbia will not like my book).  TR responds more forcefully to
      both the British Admiralty Orders in Council and Germany's
      Declaration of Unrestricted Submarine Warfare than Wilson did and his
      preparations for combat are far more progressive and realistic.
      >  
      > As you point out, Theodore Roosevelt's skills as a diplomat and
      negotiator remain seriously underrated.  I plan to address those in a
      sequel already under development that covers the  postwar period
      (1917-1919).  The present work deals with the war, the runup to it
      and the period immediately afterwards (1913 -1916) and showcases his
      skills a Commander-in- Chief -- strategist, military technocrat,
      logistician, and consummate master of warfare as a political and
      diplomatic art and simply a military one.
      >  
      > Some highlights --
      >  
      >       Gallipolli -- Intial landings by the ANZAC achieve only
      limited success until.....a brilliant amphibious stroke by American
      Marines and Army Regulars awards the Allies the capture of
      Constantiople.  I had a lot of fun with this one since their landing
      ground at Savros Bay was similar to that of the Inchon landing (minus
      any counterpart of Wolmi-Do Island.  Churchill, the mastermind of the
      original, if somewhat clumsy attack is transformed into a hero by the
      US Marine Corps and succeeds Asquith as Prime Minister.
      >  
      >      Verdun -- All the elements of a Gigantic Custer's Last Stand
      with one happy difference.  It is a success.  The battle-weary but
      tenacious French veterans fighting on against the relentless German
      attack; their battle-wise commander re-echoing le mot
      de Cambronne when called on to surrender; the dramatic arrival of the
      American relief force, spearheaded by the "Rainbow Division", under
      their handsome young general; the lightning counterattack that
      reduces the St Michiel Salient and lays the groundwork for the
      attacks on Metz and Sedan.
      >  
      >    Jutland -- The combined Anglo-American Atlantic Fleet deals a
      deathblow to the Kriegsmarine, nicely complimenting the success of US
      convoys and destroyers against the U-boats in the North Atlantic the
      year before.
      >  
      >    Somme-Passchendale -- A slow steady advance by the British
      supported by the US Second Army gradually pushes the Germans back
      >  
      >    Aisne -- With the bulk of the German Army tied down against the
      British further north and west and against the Franco-American drive
      in the Saar, the US Third Army, employing its powerful new brigade of
      tanks, strikes the center of the German lines in "Operation Grand
      Slam.
      >  
      >   Russia -- No revolution, but Rasputin is killed; Michael succeeds
      Nicholas as Czar; Kerenksy becomes Prime Minister
      >
      >
      >
      > From: Henry Hendrix <henryhendrix@...>
      > Subject: RE: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography of TR
      by Henry Pr ingle - Online
      > To: tr-m@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Saturday, December 13, 2008, 11:56 AM
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > I felt compelled to jump in here as I am in the final process of
      editing my own book on TR and so many of the topics raised here have
      been part of the themes I have tried to address in my research. 
      First the Pringle book. Pringle represents the first of the
      revisionist camp that emerged in the late 1920s and early 1930s. 
      This camp, intellectually descendent out of the Marx-Hegallian school
      of history (know, I am not saying that they were all communist) that
      believed that government was a necessary tool in the process of
      perfecting man.  Pringle and Howard Hill and Fred Rippy all wrote
      books very critical of Roosevelt as a means of lowering his
      legitimacy in the eyes of the general public even as they raised the
      historical profile of their hero, Woodrow Wilson.  TR represented
      rugged individualism, Wilson represented collective responsability
      and in the great battle of ideas it was necessary for one ideal to
      defeat the other.  I have always thought
      > of Pringle in this light.
      > I completely agree with Keith that TR was the epitome of balance
      while in office, however he was not balanced out of office.  A review
      of his speeches show his tendancy towards radicalism when not in
      power.  Like Patrick, I have often wondered what he would have been
      like if he had been President during WWI, but then I have to remember
      that TR had several chances to take this nation into war during his
      administration and he found a way to negotiate or mediate his way out
      of every one of them.  There was no greater champion of negotiation
      and dialogue in the world during his presidency, so Patrick you will
      need to be very careful about how you introduce your scenario, maybe
      have someone else start the war, and let TR finish it.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > To: tr-m@yahoogroups. com
      > From: patrickjhealy2001@ yahoo.com
      > Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 21:38:27 -0800
      > Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography of TR
      by Henry Pr ingle - Online
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Your comments are interesting and inspiring.  I am actually writing
      an alternative history of the election of 1912 and the Great War that
      explores these questions and I sense that your views generally
      correspond to my own.
      >
      > --- On Fri, 12/12/08, Keith Simon <simonamerica@ gmail.com> wrote:
      >
      > From: Keith Simon <simonamerica@ gmail.com>
      > Subject: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography of TR by
      Henry Pr ingle - Online
      > To: tr-m@yahoogroups. com
      > Date: Friday, December 12, 2008, 3:21 PM
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > I think that one key to understanding TR was his search for balance
      > between the conflicting social and political forces of his time as
      > well as his absolute faith in the need for an ordered domestic and
      > international community. I think the tragic example of his brother
      > Elliot's slide into UN-controlled DIS-order and IM-balance served
      to
      > warn him on a personal level of the of larger social and political
      > perils of abandoning public "sanity" for either the anarchists on
      the
      > ultra-left or the so-called "stand patters" on the reactionary
      right.
      >
      > TR was an incredible student of history and also well knew the
      > dangers that both the national as well as the international
      community
      > faced at the beginning of the 20th Century. His work to resolve the
      > Russo-Japanese War, for example is the direct outgrowth of this
      > search for balance and order - in the International Stage. His
      > settling of the Coal Strike demonstrates this on the US National
      > Stage as well.
      >
      > Had he lived and become president in 1912, I believe he would have
      > served to prevent Germany from the slide into War. His
      international
      > standing was so great that he might even have been able to mediated
      a
      > peace settlement after the assasination of Arch-Duke Ferdinand of
      > Serbia in Sarajevo that touched off World War 1. That's speculation
      > to be sure, but Germany's Kaisar stood in awe of Roosevelt and both
      > respected him as an international force for good (Speak Softly) as
      > well as his willingness to prevent war (The Big Stick). Would that
      he
      > would have been nominated in 1912 by his party. A tremendous loss
      to
      > the World Sanity and Order it twas.
      >
      > as well as order --- In tr-m@yahoogroups. com, "jmgallen@ ."
      > <JMGallen@ .> wrote:
      > >
      > > Dr. John Gable also warned me of factual distortions in Pringle's
      > book.
      > > Jim Gallen
      > >
      > > -- "Patrick J. Healy" <patrickjhealy2001@ ...> wrote:
      > >
      > > Pringle is a liberal and a neo-liberal at that -- enough said. I
      am
      > > sure, had he lived in TR's time his heroes would have been Eugene
      > Debs
      > > and William Jennings Bryan
      > >
      > > --- In tr-m@yahoogroups. com, "Keith Simon" <simonamerica@ >
      wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Henry Pringle made a excellent living trying to knock TR off
      his
      > > > proverbial "high horse" in American public opinion in his
      widely
      > read
      > > > biography Theodore Roosevelt - A Biography by Henry F. Pringle
      > and
      > > you
      > > > can read it online at the following URL.
      > > > http://books. google.com/ books?id= x0WGYBSt2hsC& output=html
      > > >
      > > > While highly (and deliberately, in my opinion) critical of TR,
      > some
      > > say
      > > > that this book did much to damage TR's reputation which was not
      > > really
      > > > restored in the public eye until the Edmund Morris 1979
      > biography.
      > > > Nevertheless, even Morris' biography of TR makes reference to
      it.
      > I
      > > > found it useful as a sign of the post-WW1 iconaclast attitude
      > common
      > > > among the so-called "lost generation." Your thoughts on this
      book?
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
      > > Click here to find the perfect picture with our powerful photo
      > search features.
      > >
      > http://thirdpartyof fers.juno. com/TGL2131/ fc/PnY6rbtzjionM
      PGA0cWOR4YQN2
      > 7vRJC9LRS382ZPOPZJT vcZ0bKOC/
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Send e-mail anywhere. No map, no compass. Get your Hotmail® account
      now.
      >
    • Patrick Healy
      People like you make me yearn to quit the engineering profession and write full time!  I must confess the idea WAS not original.....several short stories have
      Message 2 of 24 , Dec 14, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        People like you make me yearn to quit the engineering profession and write full time!  I must confess the idea WAS not original.....several short stories have been written on the subject.  To the best of my knowledge, however, this is the first full-length novel written on the subject -- also my first on any subject.  Alas, as I cannot afford to write full time, completion is probably a year away.
         
        As a fan and admirer of TR, I have endeavored NOT to "give him any breaks" -- military or otherwise -- or to take any "easy ways out".  I hope I have kept the story credible.

        --- On Sun, 12/14/08, Keith Simon <simonamerica@...> wrote:
        From: Keith Simon <simonamerica@...>
        Subject: [tr-m] Thanks for the Great Ideas Expressed on Theodore Roosevelt
        To: tr-m@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Sunday, December 14, 2008, 7:42 AM

        Patrick

        What a GREAT parallel history concept!

        Gallipolli, ,Savros Bay, Inchon landing (minus any counterpart of
        Wolmi-Do Island (yup - no such dramatic tidal fluctuations at
        Gallipolli as in the Inchon attack),Asquith. Verdun, le mot de
        Cambronne, the St Michiel Salient, Metz and the Sedan, Jutland, the
        Kriegsmarine, the Battle of the Somme-Passchendale, Aisne, Michael as
        Czar; Kerenksy becomes Prime Minister? Wowie Zowie! Incredible
        stuff, but I'm not sure the average Joe or Jane will turn off
        American Idol and to dive into such a book. I'm sure legions of
        history fans, amatuer as well as professional will really have fun
        with such a book! And "I" will certainly eat it up! So keep at it,
        man!

        And congratulations on both your work and Dr./Commander Hendrix's
        work in progress. These great reports really make me proud to be
        associated in some way with the people that have joined this group -
        whether or not they are active contributors to the posts.

        Mr Gallen's comments on Dr. Gable's study were really useful. I
        didn't even know he undertook such a study - that's because I'm a
        POST Gable student of TR, unfortunately. This is why I also
        appreciate the great contributions and ideas expressed by Linda
        Milano and other friends of Dr. John. I consider it a personal
        tragedy of mine, that the Theodore Roosevelt Association Folks came
        out here to Portland, OR for their 2005 Annual Meeting and here I
        was - not a half hour away from a group I didn't even know existed!!!
        This is why I'm so adamant about getting the word out to potential
        members both of this group as well as the Theodore Roosevelt
        Association which can be found at www.theodorerooseve lt.org URL.

        Thanks to Harry Lembeck and the other recent contributors as well.

        Keith

        This is something I really love about this group that - the
        companionship of people who both admire as well as appreciate the
        enormous scope of Theodore Roosevelt!

        --- In tr-m@yahoogroups. com, Patrick Healy <patrickjhealy2001@ ...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Actually, the Serbians start the war in both scenarios (supporters
        of Serbia will not like my book).  TR responds more forcefully to
        both the British Admiralty Orders in Council and Germany's
        Declaration of Unrestricted Submarine Warfare than Wilson did and his
        preparations for combat are far more progressive and realistic.
        >  
        > As you point out, Theodore Roosevelt's skills as a diplomat and
        negotiator remain seriously underrated.  I plan to address those in a
        sequel already under development that covers the  postwar period
        (1917-1919).  The present work deals with the war, the runup to it
        and the period immediately afterwar ds (1913 -1916) and showcases his
        skills a Commander-in- Chief -- strategist, military technocrat,
        logistician, and consummate master of warfare as a political and
        diplomatic art and simply a military one.
        >  
        > Some highlights --
        >  
        >       Gallipolli -- Intial landings by the ANZAC achieve only
        limited success until.....a brilliant amphibious stroke by American
        Marines and Army Regulars awards the Allies the capture of
        Constantiople.  I had a lot of fun with this one since their landing
        ground at Savros Bay was similar to that of the Inchon landing (minus
        any counterpart of Wolmi-Do Island.  Churchill, the mastermind of the
        original, if somewhat clumsy attack is transformed into a hero by the
        US Marine Corps and succeeds Asquith as Prime Minister.
        >  
        >      Verdun -- All the elements of a Gigantic Custer's Last Stand
        with one happy difference.  It is a success.  The battle-weary but
        tenacious French veterans fighting on against the relentless German
        attack; their battle-wise commander re-echoing le mot
        de Cambronne when called on to surrender; the dramatic arrival of the
        American relief force, spearheaded by the "Rainbow Division", under
        their handsome young general; the lightning counterattack that
        reduces the St Michiel Salient and lays the groundwork for the
        attacks on Metz and Sedan.
        >  
        >    Jutland -- The combined Anglo-American  Atlantic Fleet deals a
        deathblow to the Kriegsmarine, nicely complimenting the success of US
        convoys and destroyers against the U-boats in the North Atlantic the
        year before.
        >  
        >    Somme-Passchendale -- A slow steady advance by the British
        supported by the US Second Army gradually pushes the Germans back
        >  
        >    Aisne -- With the bulk of the German Army tied down against the
        British further north and west and against the Franco-American drive
        in the Saar, the US Third Army, employing its powerful new brigade of
        tanks, strikes the center of the German lines in "Operation Grand
        Slam.
        >  
        >   Russia -- No revolution, but Rasputin is killed; Michael succeeds
        Nicholas as Czar; Kerenksy becomes Prime Minister
        >
        >
        >
        > From: Henry Hendrix <henryhendrix@ ...>
        > Subject: RE: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography of TR
        by Henry Pr ingle - Online
        > To: tr-m@yahoogroups. com
        > Date: Saturday, December 13, 2008, 11:56 AM
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > I felt compelled to jump in here as I am in the final process of
        editing my own book on TR and so many of the topics raised here have
        been part of the themes I have tried to address in my research. 
        First the Pringle book. Pringle represents the first of the
        revisionist camp that emerged in the late 1920s and early 1930s. 
        This camp, intellectually descendent out of the Marx-Hegallian school
        of history (know, I am not saying that they were all communist) that
        believed that government was a necessary tool in the process of
        perfecting man.  Pringle and Howard Hill and Fred Rippy all wrote
        books very critical of Roosevelt as a means of lowering his
        legitimacy in the eyes of the general public even as they raised the
        historical profile of their hero, Woodrow Wilson.  TR represented
        rugged individualism, Wilson represented collective responsability
        and in the great battle of ideas it was necessary for one ideal to
        defeat the other.  I have always thought
        > of Pringle in this light.
        > I completely agree with Keith that TR was the epitome of balance
        while in office, however he was not balanced out of office.  A review
        of his speeches show his tendancy towards radicalism when not in
        power.  Like Patrick, I have often wondered what he would have been
        like if he had been President during WWI, but then I have to remember
        that TR had several chances to take this nation into war during his
        administration and he found a way to negotiate or mediate his way out
        of every one of them.  There was no greater champion of negotiation
        and dialogue in the world during his presidency, so Patrick you will
        need to be very careful about how you introduce your scenario, maybe
        have someone else start the war, and let TR finish it.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > To: tr-m@yahoogroups. com
        > From: patrickjhealy2001@ yahoo.com
        > Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 21:38:27 -0800
        > Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography of TR
        by Henry Pr ingle - Online
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Your comments are interesting and inspiring.  I am actually writing
        an alternative history of the election of 1912 and the Great War that
        explores these questions and I sense that your views generally
        correspond to my own.
        >
        > --- On Fri, 12/12/08, Keith Simon <simonamerica@ gmail.com> wrote:
        >
        > From: Keith Simon <simonamerica@ gmail.com>
        > Subject: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography of TR by
        Henry Pr ingle - Online
        > To: tr-m@yahoogroups. com
        > Date: Friday, December 12, 2008, 3:21 PM
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > I think that one key to understanding TR was his search for balance
        > between the conflicting social and political forces of his time as
        > well as his absolute faith in the need for an ordered domestic and
        > international community. I think the tragic example of his brother
        > Elliot's slide into UN-controlled DIS-order and IM-balance served
        to
        > warn him on a personal level of the of larger social and political
        > perils of abandoning public "sanity" for either the anarchists on
        the
        > ultra-left or the so-called "stand patters" on the reactionary
        right.
        >
        > TR was an incredible student of history and also well knew the
        > dangers that both the national as well as the international
        community
        > faced at the beginning of the 20th Century. His work to resolve the
        > Russo-Japanese War, for example is the direct outgrowth of this
        > search for balance and order - in the International Stage. His
        > settling of the Coal Strike demonstrates this on the US National
        > Stage as well.
        >
        > Had he lived and become president in 1912, I believe he would have
        > served to prevent Germany from the slide into War. His
        international
        > standing was so great that he might even have been able to mediated
        a
        > peace settlement after the assasination of Arch-Duke Ferdinand of
        > Serbia in Sarajevo that touched off World War 1. That's speculation
        > to be sure, but Germany's Kaisar stood in awe of Roosevelt and both
        > respected him as an international force for good (Speak Softly) as
        > well as his willingness to prevent war (The Big Stick). Would that
        he
        > would have been nominated in 1912 by his party. A tremendous loss
        to
        > the World Sanity and Order it twas.
        >
        > as well as order --- In tr-m@yahoogroups. com, "jmgallen@ ."
        > <JMGallen@ .> wrote:
        > >
        > > Dr. John Gable also warned me of factual distortions in Pringle's
        > book.
        > > Jim Gallen
        > >
        > > -- "Patrick J. Healy" <patrickjhealy2001@ ...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Pringle is a liberal and a neo-liberal at that -- enough said. I
        am
        > > sure, had he lived in TR's time his heroes would have been Eugene
        > Debs
        > > and William Jennings Bryan
        > >
        > > --- In tr-m@yahoogroups. com, "Keith Simon" <simonamerica@ >
        wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Henry Pringle made a excellent living trying to knock TR off
        his
        > > > proverbial "high horse" in American public opinion in his
        widely
        > read
        > > > biography Theodore Roosevelt - A Biography by Henry F. Pringle
        > and
        > > you
        > > > can read it online at the following URL.
        > > > http://books. google.com/ books?id= x0WGYBSt2hsC& output=html
        > > >
        > > > While highly (and deliberately, in my opinion) critical of TR,
        > some
        > > say
        > > > that this book did much to damage TR's reputation which was not
        > > really
        > > > restored in the public eye until the Edmund Morris 1979
        > biography.
        > > > Nevertheless, even Morris' biography of TR makes reference to
        it.
        > I
        > > > found it useful as a sign of the post-WW1 iconaclast attitude
        > common
        > > > among the so-called "lost generation." Your thoughts on this
        book?
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
        > > Click here to find the perfect picture with our powerful photo
        > search features.
        > >
        > http://thirdpartyof fers.juno. com/TGL2131/ fc/PnY6rbtzjionM
        PGA0cWOR4YQN2
        > 7vRJC9LRS382ZPOPZJT vcZ0bKOC/
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Send e-mail anywhere. No map, no compass. Get your Hotmail® account
        now.
        >


      • Patrick J. Healy
        The average American probably would not turn off American Idol for ANY book -- and that includes this author. On the other hand, my niece is already working
        Message 3 of 24 , Dec 15, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          The average American probably would not turn off American Idol for
          ANY book -- and that includes this author. On the other hand, my
          niece is already working up a cast for the TV-miniseries!


          --- In tr-m@yahoogroups.com, "Keith Simon" <simonamerica@...> wrote:
          >
          > Patrick
          >
          > What a GREAT parallel history concept!
          >
          > Gallipolli, ,Savros Bay, Inchon landing (minus any counterpart of
          > Wolmi-Do Island (yup - no such dramatic tidal fluctuations at
          > Gallipolli as in the Inchon attack),Asquith. Verdun, le mot de
          > Cambronne, the St Michiel Salient, Metz and the Sedan, Jutland, the
          > Kriegsmarine, the Battle of the Somme-Passchendale, Aisne, Michael
          as
          > Czar; Kerenksy becomes Prime Minister? Wowie Zowie! Incredible
          > stuff, but I'm not sure the average Joe or Jane will turn off
          > American Idol and to dive into such a book. I'm sure legions of
          > history fans, amatuer as well as professional will really have fun
          > with such a book! And "I" will certainly eat it up! So keep at it,
          > man!
          >
          > And congratulations on both your work and Dr./Commander Hendrix's
          > work in progress. These great reports really make me proud to be
          > associated in some way with the people that have joined this group -
          > whether or not they are active contributors to the posts.
          >
          > Mr Gallen's comments on Dr. Gable's study were really useful. I
          > didn't even know he undertook such a study - that's because I'm a
          > POST Gable student of TR, unfortunately. This is why I also
          > appreciate the great contributions and ideas expressed by Linda
          > Milano and other friends of Dr. John. I consider it a personal
          > tragedy of mine, that the Theodore Roosevelt Association Folks came
          > out here to Portland, OR for their 2005 Annual Meeting and here I
          > was - not a half hour away from a group I didn't even know
          existed!!!
          > This is why I'm so adamant about getting the word out to potential
          > members both of this group as well as the Theodore Roosevelt
          > Association which can be found at www.theodoreroosevelt.org URL.
          >
          > Thanks to Harry Lembeck and the other recent contributors as well.
          >
          > Keith
          >
          > This is something I really love about this group that - the
          > companionship of people who both admire as well as appreciate the
          > enormous scope of Theodore Roosevelt!
          >
          >
          > --- In tr-m@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Healy <patrickjhealy2001@>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > Actually, the Serbians start the war in both scenarios (supporters
          > of Serbia will not like my book).  TR responds more forcefully to
          > both the British Admiralty Orders in Council and Germany's
          > Declaration of Unrestricted Submarine Warfare than Wilson did and
          his
          > preparations for combat are far more progressive and realistic.
          > >  
          > > As you point out, Theodore Roosevelt's skills as a diplomat and
          > negotiator remain seriously underrated.  I plan to address those in
          a
          > sequel already under development that covers the  postwar period
          > (1917-1919).  The present work deals with the war, the runup to it
          > and the period immediately afterwards (1913 -1916) and showcases his
          > skills a Commander-in- Chief -- strategist, military technocrat,
          > logistician, and consummate master of warfare as a political and
          > diplomatic art and simply a military one.
          > >  
          > > Some highlights --
          > >  
          > >       Gallipolli -- Intial landings by the ANZAC achieve only
          > limited success until.....a brilliant amphibious stroke by American
          > Marines and Army Regulars awards the Allies the capture of
          > Constantiople.  I had a lot of fun with this one since their landing
          > ground at Savros Bay was similar to that of the Inchon landing
          (minus
          > any counterpart of Wolmi-Do Island.  Churchill, the mastermind of
          the
          > original, if somewhat clumsy attack is transformed into a hero by
          the
          > US Marine Corps and succeeds Asquith as Prime Minister.
          > >  
          > >      Verdun -- All the elements of a Gigantic Custer's Last Stand
          > with one happy difference.  It is a success.  The battle-weary but
          > tenacious French veterans fighting on against the relentless German
          > attack; their battle-wise commander re-echoing le mot
          > de Cambronne when called on to surrender; the dramatic arrival of
          the
          > American relief force, spearheaded by the "Rainbow Division", under
          > their handsome young general; the lightning counterattack that
          > reduces the St Michiel Salient and lays the groundwork for the
          > attacks on Metz and Sedan.
          > >  
          > >    Jutland -- The combined Anglo-American Atlantic Fleet deals a
          > deathblow to the Kriegsmarine, nicely complimenting the success of
          US
          > convoys and destroyers against the U-boats in the North Atlantic the
          > year before.
          > >  
          > >    Somme-Passchendale -- A slow steady advance by the British
          > supported by the US Second Army gradually pushes the Germans back
          > >  
          > >    Aisne -- With the bulk of the German Army tied down against the
          > British further north and west and against the Franco-American drive
          > in the Saar, the US Third Army, employing its powerful new brigade
          of
          > tanks, strikes the center of the German lines in "Operation Grand
          > Slam.
          > >  
          > >   Russia -- No revolution, but Rasputin is killed; Michael
          succeeds
          > Nicholas as Czar; Kerenksy becomes Prime Minister
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > From: Henry Hendrix <henryhendrix@>
          > > Subject: RE: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography of
          TR
          > by Henry Pr ingle - Online
          > > To: tr-m@yahoogroups.com
          > > Date: Saturday, December 13, 2008, 11:56 AM
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > I felt compelled to jump in here as I am in the final process of
          > editing my own book on TR and so many of the topics raised here have
          > been part of the themes I have tried to address in my research. 
          > First the Pringle book. Pringle represents the first of the
          > revisionist camp that emerged in the late 1920s and early 1930s. 
          > This camp, intellectually descendent out of the Marx-Hegallian
          school
          > of history (know, I am not saying that they were all communist) that
          > believed that government was a necessary tool in the process of
          > perfecting man.  Pringle and Howard Hill and Fred Rippy all wrote
          > books very critical of Roosevelt as a means of lowering his
          > legitimacy in the eyes of the general public even as they raised the
          > historical profile of their hero, Woodrow Wilson.  TR represented
          > rugged individualism, Wilson represented collective responsability
          > and in the great battle of ideas it was necessary for one ideal to
          > defeat the other.  I have always thought
          > > of Pringle in this light.
          > > I completely agree with Keith that TR was the epitome of balance
          > while in office, however he was not balanced out of office.  A
          review
          > of his speeches show his tendancy towards radicalism when not in
          > power.  Like Patrick, I have often wondered what he would have been
          > like if he had been President during WWI, but then I have to
          remember
          > that TR had several chances to take this nation into war during his
          > administration and he found a way to negotiate or mediate his way
          out
          > of every one of them.  There was no greater champion of negotiation
          > and dialogue in the world during his presidency, so Patrick you will
          > need to be very careful about how you introduce your scenario, maybe
          > have someone else start the war, and let TR finish it.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > To: tr-m@yahoogroups. com
          > > From: patrickjhealy2001@ yahoo.com
          > > Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 21:38:27 -0800
          > > Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography of
          TR
          > by Henry Pr ingle - Online
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Your comments are interesting and inspiring.  I am actually
          writing
          > an alternative history of the election of 1912 and the Great War
          that
          > explores these questions and I sense that your views generally
          > correspond to my own.
          > >
          > > --- On Fri, 12/12/08, Keith Simon <simonamerica@ gmail.com> wrote:
          > >
          > > From: Keith Simon <simonamerica@ gmail.com>
          > > Subject: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography of TR by
          > Henry Pr ingle - Online
          > > To: tr-m@yahoogroups. com
          > > Date: Friday, December 12, 2008, 3:21 PM
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > I think that one key to understanding TR was his search for
          balance
          > > between the conflicting social and political forces of his time as
          > > well as his absolute faith in the need for an ordered domestic and
          > > international community. I think the tragic example of his brother
          > > Elliot's slide into UN-controlled DIS-order and IM-balance served
          > to
          > > warn him on a personal level of the of larger social and political
          > > perils of abandoning public "sanity" for either the anarchists on
          > the
          > > ultra-left or the so-called "stand patters" on the reactionary
          > right.
          > >
          > > TR was an incredible student of history and also well knew the
          > > dangers that both the national as well as the international
          > community
          > > faced at the beginning of the 20th Century. His work to resolve
          the
          > > Russo-Japanese War, for example is the direct outgrowth of this
          > > search for balance and order - in the International Stage. His
          > > settling of the Coal Strike demonstrates this on the US National
          > > Stage as well.
          > >
          > > Had he lived and become president in 1912, I believe he would have
          > > served to prevent Germany from the slide into War. His
          > international
          > > standing was so great that he might even have been able to
          mediated
          > a
          > > peace settlement after the assasination of Arch-Duke Ferdinand of
          > > Serbia in Sarajevo that touched off World War 1. That's
          speculation
          > > to be sure, but Germany's Kaisar stood in awe of Roosevelt and
          both
          > > respected him as an international force for good (Speak Softly) as
          > > well as his willingness to prevent war (The Big Stick). Would that
          > he
          > > would have been nominated in 1912 by his party. A tremendous loss
          > to
          > > the World Sanity and Order it twas.
          > >
          > > as well as order --- In tr-m@yahoogroups. com, "jmgallen@ ."
          > > <JMGallen@ .> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Dr. John Gable also warned me of factual distortions in
          Pringle's
          > > book.
          > > > Jim Gallen
          > > >
          > > > -- "Patrick J. Healy" <patrickjhealy2001@ ...> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Pringle is a liberal and a neo-liberal at that -- enough said. I
          > am
          > > > sure, had he lived in TR's time his heroes would have been
          Eugene
          > > Debs
          > > > and William Jennings Bryan
          > > >
          > > > --- In tr-m@yahoogroups. com, "Keith Simon" <simonamerica@ >
          > wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > Henry Pringle made a excellent living trying to knock TR off
          > his
          > > > > proverbial "high horse" in American public opinion in his
          > widely
          > > read
          > > > > biography Theodore Roosevelt - A Biography by Henry F. Pringle
          > > and
          > > > you
          > > > > can read it online at the following URL.
          > > > > http://books. google.com/ books?id= x0WGYBSt2hsC& output=html
          > > > >
          > > > > While highly (and deliberately, in my opinion) critical of TR,
          > > some
          > > > say
          > > > > that this book did much to damage TR's reputation which was
          not
          > > > really
          > > > > restored in the public eye until the Edmund Morris 1979
          > > biography.
          > > > > Nevertheless, even Morris' biography of TR makes reference to
          > it.
          > > I
          > > > > found it useful as a sign of the post-WW1 iconaclast attitude
          > > common
          > > > > among the so-called "lost generation." Your thoughts on this
          > book?
          > > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
          > > > Click here to find the perfect picture with our powerful photo
          > > search features.
          > > >
          > > http://thirdpartyof fers.juno. com/TGL2131/ fc/PnY6rbtzjionM
          > PGA0cWOR4YQN2
          > > 7vRJC9LRS382ZPOPZJT vcZ0bKOC/
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Send e-mail anywhere. No map, no compass. Get your Hotmail®
          account
          > now.
          > >
          >
        • Keith Simon
          Well some great recent films have been on totally obsure topics like that new Australia film. I suspect few Americans ever even heard of Darwin, Australia
          Message 4 of 24 , Dec 15, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Well some great recent films have been on totally obsure topics like
            that new Australia film.

            I suspect few Americans ever even heard of Darwin, Australia before
            the movie, or even realized that the Japanese raided that part of the
            Australia. It took a great dramatic movie to grab the public's
            attention. That movie is magnificent and is a real instant classic.
            After people actuallly show up and watch the movie, maybe they'll
            bother to follow up with some online research or a book or the
            History Channel. This is why I've contributed to the wikipedia
            article on TR and uploaded most of the photos you'll see on that site
            and expanded the coverage to a discussion of one of the biographer,
            Pringles's points, the Trip down the River of Doubt and also expanded
            almost ALL the articles on TR's family including his parents, and
            even his Bulloch uncles - Why. Because, like it or not, people DO use
            even the often non-serious articles at wikipedia.org. And I KNOW some
            folks in this group are fairly hostile to wikipedia. Nevertheless, it
            remains the first place a huge crowd goes to. I've added a LOT of
            material, not only on the Roosevelts but on Lincoln, the Battle of
            the Little Bighorn, artillery "call for fire," and a lot of obscure
            little items that I'm either interested in or trained in - like US
            Army/Marine Corps Artillery, for example - good ole Fort Sill.

            So, I think that dramatic movie and TV series can really be a portal
            to renews public interest in historical topics. The HBO series,
            Rome, while unbelievably violent, pornographic and fairly disgusting
            at times, really grabbed the public's immagination. By the way, as an
            ond High School and college Latin student, I DID find one inaccuracy
            in the movie that, to my suprise, escaped Terrence Stamp, the
            historical consultant's inspection. In season one of that series,
            Julius Caesar's neice, Atia says, "Well as they say, 'nothing new
            under the sun.'" Mr. Stamp must have been sleeping in his own Latin
            class because the Romans actually used to say, "Nulla nova sub luna."
            (not sub sola) which is clearly translas "nothing new under the
            moon!" I was genuinely suprised that that one slipped past the
            historians. But I guess a ancient historian isn't necessarlily a
            classical languages student. There was once a time - TR's time, that
            this would have been an absolute impossibility. All ancient
            historians of his day would have known both Latin as well as some
            Greek - at least enough to get by. TR, himself studied both Latin and
            Greek to prepare for college at the then Harvard College. Apparently,
            he continued from time to time, to read ancient texts. I think it was
            Edmund Morris who gives the example of TR campaigning for NY
            governor, and TR is asked on the train, by a newspaper reporter, the
            name and topic of a book that TR seems so totally immersed in. TR
            tells the reporter that he would probably not be interested in the
            book. When TR tosses the book to the writer, the writer is amazed
            that the book is on the topic of Greek Philosophy, with many passages
            from Aristotle and Plato, etc. - but then the amazing thing - the
            entire text of the discussion is in GERMAN! So here is TR reading a
            book in German about Greek philosophy! I LOVED that little scene that
            sheds some light into the enormous breath and scope of TR's academic
            interests. Studying in Dresden, Germany as a child must have
            certainly helped lay the groundwork for TR's continued interest in
            German - he loved the great German writers, Goethe and Schiller too
            and quoted hundereds of lines of their poetry to a totallu amazed
            group of German businessman visiting the White House who said that
            they, themselves were embarassed to admit that, they had not even
            thought much about German literature since their university days
            (Morris, again, I think it was)



            rraliaa during the war. You have to put enough story lineand passsion
            and umpph into--- In tr-m@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick J. Healy"
            <patrickjhealy2001@...> wrote:
            >
            > The average American probably would not turn off American Idol for
            > ANY book -- and that includes this author. On the other hand, my
            > niece is already working up a cast for the TV-miniseries!
            >
            >
            > --- In tr-m@yahoogroups.com, "Keith Simon" <simonamerica@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Patrick
            > >
            > > What a GREAT parallel history concept!
            > >
            > > Gallipolli, ,Savros Bay, Inchon landing (minus any counterpart of
            > > Wolmi-Do Island (yup - no such dramatic tidal fluctuations at
            > > Gallipolli as in the Inchon attack),Asquith. Verdun, le mot de
            > > Cambronne, the St Michiel Salient, Metz and the Sedan, Jutland,
            the
            > > Kriegsmarine, the Battle of the Somme-Passchendale, Aisne,
            Michael
            > as
            > > Czar; Kerenksy becomes Prime Minister? Wowie Zowie! Incredible
            > > stuff, but I'm not sure the average Joe or Jane will turn off
            > > American Idol and to dive into such a book. I'm sure legions of
            > > history fans, amatuer as well as professional will really have fun
            > > with such a book! And "I" will certainly eat it up! So keep at
            it,
            > > man!
            > >
            > > And congratulations on both your work and Dr./Commander Hendrix's
            > > work in progress. These great reports really make me proud to be
            > > associated in some way with the people that have joined this
            group -
            > > whether or not they are active contributors to the posts.
            > >
            > > Mr Gallen's comments on Dr. Gable's study were really useful. I
            > > didn't even know he undertook such a study - that's because I'm a
            > > POST Gable student of TR, unfortunately. This is why I also
            > > appreciate the great contributions and ideas expressed by Linda
            > > Milano and other friends of Dr. John. I consider it a personal
            > > tragedy of mine, that the Theodore Roosevelt Association Folks
            came
            > > out here to Portland, OR for their 2005 Annual Meeting and here I
            > > was - not a half hour away from a group I didn't even know
            > existed!!!
            > > This is why I'm so adamant about getting the word out to potential
            > > members both of this group as well as the Theodore Roosevelt
            > > Association which can be found at www.theodoreroosevelt.org URL.
            > >
            > > Thanks to Harry Lembeck and the other recent contributors as well.
            > >
            > > Keith
            > >
            > > This is something I really love about this group that - the
            > > companionship of people who both admire as well as appreciate the
            > > enormous scope of Theodore Roosevelt!
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In tr-m@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Healy <patrickjhealy2001@>
            > > wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Actually, the Serbians start the war in both scenarios
            (supporters
            > > of Serbia will not like my book).  TR responds more forcefully to
            > > both the British Admiralty Orders in Council and Germany's
            > > Declaration of Unrestricted Submarine Warfare than Wilson did and
            > his
            > > preparations for combat are far more progressive and realistic.
            > > >  
            > > > As you point out, Theodore Roosevelt's skills as a diplomat and
            > > negotiator remain seriously underrated.  I plan to address those
            in
            > a
            > > sequel already under development that covers the  postwar period
            > > (1917-1919).  The present work deals with the war, the runup to it
            > > and the period immediately afterwards (1913 -1916) and showcases
            his
            > > skills a Commander-in- Chief -- strategist, military technocrat,
            > > logistician, and consummate master of warfare as a political and
            > > diplomatic art and simply a military one.
            > > >  
            > > > Some highlights --
            > > >  
            > > >       Gallipolli -- Intial landings by the ANZAC achieve only
            > > limited success until.....a brilliant amphibious stroke by
            American
            > > Marines and Army Regulars awards the Allies the capture of
            > > Constantiople.  I had a lot of fun with this one since their
            landing
            > > ground at Savros Bay was similar to that of the Inchon landing
            > (minus
            > > any counterpart of Wolmi-Do Island.  Churchill, the mastermind of
            > the
            > > original, if somewhat clumsy attack is transformed into a hero by
            > the
            > > US Marine Corps and succeeds Asquith as Prime Minister.
            > > >  
            > > >      Verdun -- All the elements of a Gigantic Custer's Last
            Stand
            > > with one happy difference.  It is a success.  The battle-weary but
            > > tenacious French veterans fighting on against the relentless
            German
            > > attack; their battle-wise commander re-echoing le mot
            > > de Cambronne when called on to surrender; the dramatic arrival of
            > the
            > > American relief force, spearheaded by the "Rainbow Division",
            under
            > > their handsome young general; the lightning counterattack that
            > > reduces the St Michiel Salient and lays the groundwork for the
            > > attacks on Metz and Sedan.
            > > >  
            > > >    Jutland -- The combined Anglo-American Atlantic Fleet deals a
            > > deathblow to the Kriegsmarine, nicely complimenting the success
            of
            > US
            > > convoys and destroyers against the U-boats in the North Atlantic
            the
            > > year before.
            > > >  
            > > >    Somme-Passchendale -- A slow steady advance by the British
            > > supported by the US Second Army gradually pushes the Germans back
            > > >  
            > > >    Aisne -- With the bulk of the German Army tied down against
            the
            > > British further north and west and against the Franco-American
            drive
            > > in the Saar, the US Third Army, employing its powerful new
            brigade
            > of
            > > tanks, strikes the center of the German lines in "Operation Grand
            > > Slam.
            > > >  
            > > >   Russia -- No revolution, but Rasputin is killed; Michael
            > succeeds
            > > Nicholas as Czar; Kerenksy becomes Prime Minister
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > From: Henry Hendrix <henryhendrix@>
            > > > Subject: RE: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography
            of
            > TR
            > > by Henry Pr ingle - Online
            > > > To: tr-m@yahoogroups.com
            > > > Date: Saturday, December 13, 2008, 11:56 AM
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > I felt compelled to jump in here as I am in the final process of
            > > editing my own book on TR and so many of the topics raised here
            have
            > > been part of the themes I have tried to address in my research. 
            > > First the Pringle book. Pringle represents the first of the
            > > revisionist camp that emerged in the late 1920s and early 1930s. 
            > > This camp, intellectually descendent out of the Marx-Hegallian
            > school
            > > of history (know, I am not saying that they were all communist)
            that
            > > believed that government was a necessary tool in the process of
            > > perfecting man.  Pringle and Howard Hill and Fred Rippy all wrote
            > > books very critical of Roosevelt as a means of lowering his
            > > legitimacy in the eyes of the general public even as they raised
            the
            > > historical profile of their hero, Woodrow Wilson.  TR represented
            > > rugged individualism, Wilson represented collective responsability
            > > and in the great battle of ideas it was necessary for one ideal to
            > > defeat the other.  I have always thought
            > > > of Pringle in this light.
            > > > I completely agree with Keith that TR was the epitome of balance
            > > while in office, however he was not balanced out of office.  A
            > review
            > > of his speeches show his tendancy towards radicalism when not in
            > > power.  Like Patrick, I have often wondered what he would have
            been
            > > like if he had been President during WWI, but then I have to
            > remember
            > > that TR had several chances to take this nation into war during
            his
            > > administration and he found a way to negotiate or mediate his way
            > out
            > > of every one of them.  There was no greater champion of
            negotiation
            > > and dialogue in the world during his presidency, so Patrick you
            will
            > > need to be very careful about how you introduce your scenario,
            maybe
            > > have someone else start the war, and let TR finish it.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > To: tr-m@yahoogroups. com
            > > > From: patrickjhealy2001@ yahoo.com
            > > > Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 21:38:27 -0800
            > > > Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography
            of
            > TR
            > > by Henry Pr ingle - Online
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Your comments are interesting and inspiring.  I am actually
            > writing
            > > an alternative history of the election of 1912 and the Great War
            > that
            > > explores these questions and I sense that your views generally
            > > correspond to my own.
            > > >
            > > > --- On Fri, 12/12/08, Keith Simon <simonamerica@ gmail.com>
            wrote:
            > > >
            > > > From: Keith Simon <simonamerica@ gmail.com>
            > > > Subject: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography of TR
            by
            > > Henry Pr ingle - Online
            > > > To: tr-m@yahoogroups. com
            > > > Date: Friday, December 12, 2008, 3:21 PM
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > I think that one key to understanding TR was his search for
            > balance
            > > > between the conflicting social and political forces of his time
            as
            > > > well as his absolute faith in the need for an ordered domestic
            and
            > > > international community. I think the tragic example of his
            brother
            > > > Elliot's slide into UN-controlled DIS-order and IM-balance
            served
            > > to
            > > > warn him on a personal level of the of larger social and
            political
            > > > perils of abandoning public "sanity" for either the anarchists
            on
            > > the
            > > > ultra-left or the so-called "stand patters" on the reactionary
            > > right.
            > > >
            > > > TR was an incredible student of history and also well knew the
            > > > dangers that both the national as well as the international
            > > community
            > > > faced at the beginning of the 20th Century. His work to resolve
            > the
            > > > Russo-Japanese War, for example is the direct outgrowth of this
            > > > search for balance and order - in the International Stage. His
            > > > settling of the Coal Strike demonstrates this on the US National
            > > > Stage as well.
            > > >
            > > > Had he lived and become president in 1912, I believe he would
            have
            > > > served to prevent Germany from the slide into War. His
            > > international
            > > > standing was so great that he might even have been able to
            > mediated
            > > a
            > > > peace settlement after the assasination of Arch-Duke Ferdinand
            of
            > > > Serbia in Sarajevo that touched off World War 1. That's
            > speculation
            > > > to be sure, but Germany's Kaisar stood in awe of Roosevelt and
            > both
            > > > respected him as an international force for good (Speak Softly)
            as
            > > > well as his willingness to prevent war (The Big Stick). Would
            that
            > > he
            > > > would have been nominated in 1912 by his party. A tremendous
            loss
            > > to
            > > > the World Sanity and Order it twas.
            > > >
            > > > as well as order --- In tr-m@yahoogroups. com, "jmgallen@ ."
            > > > <JMGallen@ .> wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > Dr. John Gable also warned me of factual distortions in
            > Pringle's
            > > > book.
            > > > > Jim Gallen
            > > > >
            > > > > -- "Patrick J. Healy" <patrickjhealy2001@ ...> wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > Pringle is a liberal and a neo-liberal at that -- enough
            said. I
            > > am
            > > > > sure, had he lived in TR's time his heroes would have been
            > Eugene
            > > > Debs
            > > > > and William Jennings Bryan
            > > > >
            > > > > --- In tr-m@yahoogroups. com, "Keith Simon" <simonamerica@ >
            > > wrote:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Henry Pringle made a excellent living trying to knock TR off
            > > his
            > > > > > proverbial "high horse" in American public opinion in his
            > > widely
            > > > read
            > > > > > biography Theodore Roosevelt - A Biography by Henry F.
            Pringle
            > > > and
            > > > > you
            > > > > > can read it online at the following URL.
            > > > > > http://books. google.com/ books?id= x0WGYBSt2hsC&
            output=html
            > > > > >
            > > > > > While highly (and deliberately, in my opinion) critical of
            TR,
            > > > some
            > > > > say
            > > > > > that this book did much to damage TR's reputation which was
            > not
            > > > > really
            > > > > > restored in the public eye until the Edmund Morris 1979
            > > > biography.
            > > > > > Nevertheless, even Morris' biography of TR makes reference
            to
            > > it.
            > > > I
            > > > > > found it useful as a sign of the post-WW1 iconaclast
            attitude
            > > > common
            > > > > > among the so-called "lost generation." Your thoughts on this
            > > book?
            > > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________
            _________ _
            > > > > Click here to find the perfect picture with our powerful photo
            > > > search features.
            > > > >
            > > > http://thirdpartyof fers.juno. com/TGL2131/ fc/PnY6rbtzjionM
            > > PGA0cWOR4YQN2
            > > > 7vRJC9LRS382ZPOPZJT vcZ0bKOC/
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Send e-mail anywhere. No map, no compass. Get your Hotmail®
            > account
            > > now.
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • Patrick J. Healy
            This post raises, albeit in a backhanded manner, one of the most lamentable aspects of TRs life. Despite mountains of evidence to the contrary, he remains THE
            Message 5 of 24 , Dec 15, 2008
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              This post raises, albeit in a backhanded manner, one of the most
              lamentable aspects of TRs life. Despite mountains of evidence to the
              contrary, he remains THE most underrated intellectual ever to occupy
              the White House. The general public perception, particularly amoung
              young Americans, is that he was a macho neanderthal somewhere to the
              right of Rambo.

              Few people care about the fact that he was fluent in six languages --
              besides Latin and Greek -- that he wrote 42 books, wore a Phi Beta
              Kappa Key, won a Nobel Peace Prize, predicted the wars between
              America and Germany or foresaw them as postwar allies against
              Russia. This last, btw, was from a paper he wrote at Harvard when he
              was 19 -- about seven years after he first expressed his own
              Presidential ambitions.

              Most of our young people today find it hard to believe that such a
              man ever even existed. Then again, why set the bar too high? Most
              of their contemporary role models would have a real problem with that.


              --- In tr-m@yahoogroups.com, "Keith Simon" <simonamerica@...> wrote:
              >
              > Well some great recent films have been on totally obsure topics
              like
              > that new Australia film.
              >
              > I suspect few Americans ever even heard of Darwin, Australia before
              > the movie, or even realized that the Japanese raided that part of
              the
              > Australia. It took a great dramatic movie to grab the public's
              > attention. That movie is magnificent and is a real instant classic.
              > After people actuallly show up and watch the movie, maybe they'll
              > bother to follow up with some online research or a book or the
              > History Channel. This is why I've contributed to the wikipedia
              > article on TR and uploaded most of the photos you'll see on that
              site
              > and expanded the coverage to a discussion of one of the biographer,
              > Pringles's points, the Trip down the River of Doubt and also
              expanded
              > almost ALL the articles on TR's family including his parents, and
              > even his Bulloch uncles - Why. Because, like it or not, people DO
              use
              > even the often non-serious articles at wikipedia.org. And I KNOW
              some
              > folks in this group are fairly hostile to wikipedia. Nevertheless,
              it
              > remains the first place a huge crowd goes to. I've added a LOT of
              > material, not only on the Roosevelts but on Lincoln, the Battle of
              > the Little Bighorn, artillery "call for fire," and a lot of obscure
              > little items that I'm either interested in or trained in - like US
              > Army/Marine Corps Artillery, for example - good ole Fort Sill.
              >
              > So, I think that dramatic movie and TV series can really be a
              portal
              > to renews public interest in historical topics. The HBO series,
              > Rome, while unbelievably violent, pornographic and fairly
              disgusting
              > at times, really grabbed the public's immagination. By the way, as
              an
              > ond High School and college Latin student, I DID find one
              inaccuracy
              > in the movie that, to my suprise, escaped Terrence Stamp, the
              > historical consultant's inspection. In season one of that series,
              > Julius Caesar's neice, Atia says, "Well as they say, 'nothing new
              > under the sun.'" Mr. Stamp must have been sleeping in his own Latin
              > class because the Romans actually used to say, "Nulla nova sub
              luna."
              > (not sub sola) which is clearly translas "nothing new under the
              > moon!" I was genuinely suprised that that one slipped past the
              > historians. But I guess a ancient historian isn't necessarlily a
              > classical languages student. There was once a time - TR's time,
              that
              > this would have been an absolute impossibility. All ancient
              > historians of his day would have known both Latin as well as some
              > Greek - at least enough to get by. TR, himself studied both Latin
              and
              > Greek to prepare for college at the then Harvard College.
              Apparently,
              > he continued from time to time, to read ancient texts. I think it
              was
              > Edmund Morris who gives the example of TR campaigning for NY
              > governor, and TR is asked on the train, by a newspaper reporter,
              the
              > name and topic of a book that TR seems so totally immersed in. TR
              > tells the reporter that he would probably not be interested in the
              > book. When TR tosses the book to the writer, the writer is amazed
              > that the book is on the topic of Greek Philosophy, with many
              passages
              > from Aristotle and Plato, etc. - but then the amazing thing - the
              > entire text of the discussion is in GERMAN! So here is TR reading
              a
              > book in German about Greek philosophy! I LOVED that little scene
              that
              > sheds some light into the enormous breath and scope of TR's
              academic
              > interests. Studying in Dresden, Germany as a child must have
              > certainly helped lay the groundwork for TR's continued interest in
              > German - he loved the great German writers, Goethe and Schiller too
              > and quoted hundereds of lines of their poetry to a totallu amazed
              > group of German businessman visiting the White House who said that
              > they, themselves were embarassed to admit that, they had not even
              > thought much about German literature since their university days
              > (Morris, again, I think it was)
              >
              >
              >
              > rraliaa during the war. You have to put enough story lineand
              passsion
              > and umpph into--- In tr-m@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick J. Healy"
              > <patrickjhealy2001@> wrote:
              > >
              > > The average American probably would not turn off American Idol
              for
              > > ANY book -- and that includes this author. On the other hand, my
              > > niece is already working up a cast for the TV-miniseries!
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In tr-m@yahoogroups.com, "Keith Simon" <simonamerica@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Patrick
              > > >
              > > > What a GREAT parallel history concept!
              > > >
              > > > Gallipolli, ,Savros Bay, Inchon landing (minus any counterpart
              of
              > > > Wolmi-Do Island (yup - no such dramatic tidal fluctuations at
              > > > Gallipolli as in the Inchon attack),Asquith. Verdun, le mot de
              > > > Cambronne, the St Michiel Salient, Metz and the Sedan, Jutland,
              > the
              > > > Kriegsmarine, the Battle of the Somme-Passchendale, Aisne,
              > Michael
              > > as
              > > > Czar; Kerenksy becomes Prime Minister? Wowie Zowie! Incredible
              > > > stuff, but I'm not sure the average Joe or Jane will turn off
              > > > American Idol and to dive into such a book. I'm sure legions of
              > > > history fans, amatuer as well as professional will really have
              fun
              > > > with such a book! And "I" will certainly eat it up! So keep at
              > it,
              > > > man!
              > > >
              > > > And congratulations on both your work and Dr./Commander
              Hendrix's
              > > > work in progress. These great reports really make me proud to
              be
              > > > associated in some way with the people that have joined this
              > group -
              > > > whether or not they are active contributors to the posts.
              > > >
              > > > Mr Gallen's comments on Dr. Gable's study were really useful. I
              > > > didn't even know he undertook such a study - that's because I'm
              a
              > > > POST Gable student of TR, unfortunately. This is why I also
              > > > appreciate the great contributions and ideas expressed by Linda
              > > > Milano and other friends of Dr. John. I consider it a personal
              > > > tragedy of mine, that the Theodore Roosevelt Association Folks
              > came
              > > > out here to Portland, OR for their 2005 Annual Meeting and here
              I
              > > > was - not a half hour away from a group I didn't even know
              > > existed!!!
              > > > This is why I'm so adamant about getting the word out to
              potential
              > > > members both of this group as well as the Theodore Roosevelt
              > > > Association which can be found at www.theodoreroosevelt.org URL.
              > > >
              > > > Thanks to Harry Lembeck and the other recent contributors as
              well.
              > > >
              > > > Keith
              > > >
              > > > This is something I really love about this group that - the
              > > > companionship of people who both admire as well as appreciate
              the
              > > > enormous scope of Theodore Roosevelt!
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > --- In tr-m@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Healy <patrickjhealy2001@>
              > > > wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Actually, the Serbians start the war in both scenarios
              > (supporters
              > > > of Serbia will not like my book).  TR responds more forcefully
              to
              > > > both the British Admiralty Orders in Council and Germany's
              > > > Declaration of Unrestricted Submarine Warfare than Wilson did
              and
              > > his
              > > > preparations for combat are far more progressive and realistic.
              > > > >  
              > > > > As you point out, Theodore Roosevelt's skills as a diplomat
              and
              > > > negotiator remain seriously underrated.  I plan to address
              those
              > in
              > > a
              > > > sequel already under development that covers the  postwar period
              > > > (1917-1919).  The present work deals with the war, the runup to
              it
              > > > and the period immediately afterwards (1913 -1916) and
              showcases
              > his
              > > > skills a Commander-in- Chief -- strategist, military technocrat,
              > > > logistician, and consummate master of warfare as a political and
              > > > diplomatic art and simply a military one.
              > > > >  
              > > > > Some highlights --
              > > > >  
              > > > >       Gallipolli -- Intial landings by the ANZAC achieve only
              > > > limited success until.....a brilliant amphibious stroke by
              > American
              > > > Marines and Army Regulars awards the Allies the capture of
              > > > Constantiople.  I had a lot of fun with this one since their
              > landing
              > > > ground at Savros Bay was similar to that of the Inchon landing
              > > (minus
              > > > any counterpart of Wolmi-Do Island.  Churchill, the mastermind
              of
              > > the
              > > > original, if somewhat clumsy attack is transformed into a hero
              by
              > > the
              > > > US Marine Corps and succeeds Asquith as Prime Minister.
              > > > >  
              > > > >      Verdun -- All the elements of a Gigantic Custer's Last
              > Stand
              > > > with one happy difference.  It is a success.  The battle-weary
              but
              > > > tenacious French veterans fighting on against the relentless
              > German
              > > > attack; their battle-wise commander re-echoing le mot
              > > > de Cambronne when called on to surrender; the dramatic arrival
              of
              > > the
              > > > American relief force, spearheaded by the "Rainbow Division",
              > under
              > > > their handsome young general; the lightning counterattack that
              > > > reduces the St Michiel Salient and lays the groundwork for the
              > > > attacks on Metz and Sedan.
              > > > >  
              > > > >    Jutland -- The combined Anglo-American Atlantic Fleet
              deals a
              > > > deathblow to the Kriegsmarine, nicely complimenting the success
              > of
              > > US
              > > > convoys and destroyers against the U-boats in the North
              Atlantic
              > the
              > > > year before.
              > > > >  
              > > > >    Somme-Passchendale -- A slow steady advance by the British
              > > > supported by the US Second Army gradually pushes the Germans
              back
              > > > >  
              > > > >    Aisne -- With the bulk of the German Army tied down
              against
              > the
              > > > British further north and west and against the Franco-American
              > drive
              > > > in the Saar, the US Third Army, employing its powerful new
              > brigade
              > > of
              > > > tanks, strikes the center of the German lines in "Operation
              Grand
              > > > Slam.
              > > > >  
              > > > >   Russia -- No revolution, but Rasputin is killed; Michael
              > > succeeds
              > > > Nicholas as Czar; Kerenksy becomes Prime Minister
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > From: Henry Hendrix <henryhendrix@>
              > > > > Subject: RE: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography
              > of
              > > TR
              > > > by Henry Pr ingle - Online
              > > > > To: tr-m@yahoogroups.com
              > > > > Date: Saturday, December 13, 2008, 11:56 AM
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > I felt compelled to jump in here as I am in the final process
              of
              > > > editing my own book on TR and so many of the topics raised here
              > have
              > > > been part of the themes I have tried to address in my research. 
              > > > First the Pringle book. Pringle represents the first of the
              > > > revisionist camp that emerged in the late 1920s and early
              1930s. 
              > > > This camp, intellectually descendent out of the Marx-Hegallian
              > > school
              > > > of history (know, I am not saying that they were all communist)
              > that
              > > > believed that government was a necessary tool in the process of
              > > > perfecting man.  Pringle and Howard Hill and Fred Rippy all
              wrote
              > > > books very critical of Roosevelt as a means of lowering his
              > > > legitimacy in the eyes of the general public even as they
              raised
              > the
              > > > historical profile of their hero, Woodrow Wilson.  TR
              represented
              > > > rugged individualism, Wilson represented collective
              responsability
              > > > and in the great battle of ideas it was necessary for one ideal
              to
              > > > defeat the other.  I have always thought
              > > > > of Pringle in this light.
              > > > > I completely agree with Keith that TR was the epitome of
              balance
              > > > while in office, however he was not balanced out of office.  A
              > > review
              > > > of his speeches show his tendancy towards radicalism when not in
              > > > power.  Like Patrick, I have often wondered what he would have
              > been
              > > > like if he had been President during WWI, but then I have to
              > > remember
              > > > that TR had several chances to take this nation into war during
              > his
              > > > administration and he found a way to negotiate or mediate his
              way
              > > out
              > > > of every one of them.  There was no greater champion of
              > negotiation
              > > > and dialogue in the world during his presidency, so Patrick you
              > will
              > > > need to be very careful about how you introduce your scenario,
              > maybe
              > > > have someone else start the war, and let TR finish it.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > To: tr-m@yahoogroups. com
              > > > > From: patrickjhealy2001@ yahoo.com
              > > > > Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 21:38:27 -0800
              > > > > Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography
              > of
              > > TR
              > > > by Henry Pr ingle - Online
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Your comments are interesting and inspiring.  I am actually
              > > writing
              > > > an alternative history of the election of 1912 and the Great
              War
              > > that
              > > > explores these questions and I sense that your views generally
              > > > correspond to my own.
              > > > >
              > > > > --- On Fri, 12/12/08, Keith Simon <simonamerica@ gmail.com>
              > wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > From: Keith Simon <simonamerica@ gmail.com>
              > > > > Subject: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography of
              TR
              > by
              > > > Henry Pr ingle - Online
              > > > > To: tr-m@yahoogroups. com
              > > > > Date: Friday, December 12, 2008, 3:21 PM
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > I think that one key to understanding TR was his search for
              > > balance
              > > > > between the conflicting social and political forces of his
              time
              > as
              > > > > well as his absolute faith in the need for an ordered
              domestic
              > and
              > > > > international community. I think the tragic example of his
              > brother
              > > > > Elliot's slide into UN-controlled DIS-order and IM-balance
              > served
              > > > to
              > > > > warn him on a personal level of the of larger social and
              > political
              > > > > perils of abandoning public "sanity" for either the
              anarchists
              > on
              > > > the
              > > > > ultra-left or the so-called "stand patters" on the reactionary
              > > > right.
              > > > >
              > > > > TR was an incredible student of history and also well knew the
              > > > > dangers that both the national as well as the international
              > > > community
              > > > > faced at the beginning of the 20th Century. His work to
              resolve
              > > the
              > > > > Russo-Japanese War, for example is the direct outgrowth of
              this
              > > > > search for balance and order - in the International Stage. His
              > > > > settling of the Coal Strike demonstrates this on the US
              National
              > > > > Stage as well.
              > > > >
              > > > > Had he lived and become president in 1912, I believe he would
              > have
              > > > > served to prevent Germany from the slide into War. His
              > > > international
              > > > > standing was so great that he might even have been able to
              > > mediated
              > > > a
              > > > > peace settlement after the assasination of Arch-Duke
              Ferdinand
              > of
              > > > > Serbia in Sarajevo that touched off World War 1. That's
              > > speculation
              > > > > to be sure, but Germany's Kaisar stood in awe of Roosevelt
              and
              > > both
              > > > > respected him as an international force for good (Speak
              Softly)
              > as
              > > > > well as his willingness to prevent war (The Big Stick). Would
              > that
              > > > he
              > > > > would have been nominated in 1912 by his party. A tremendous
              > loss
              > > > to
              > > > > the World Sanity and Order it twas.
              > > > >
              > > > > as well as order --- In tr-m@yahoogroups. com, "jmgallen@ ."
              > > > > <JMGallen@ .> wrote:
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Dr. John Gable also warned me of factual distortions in
              > > Pringle's
              > > > > book.
              > > > > > Jim Gallen
              > > > > >
              > > > > > -- "Patrick J. Healy" <patrickjhealy2001@ ...> wrote:
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Pringle is a liberal and a neo-liberal at that -- enough
              > said. I
              > > > am
              > > > > > sure, had he lived in TR's time his heroes would have been
              > > Eugene
              > > > > Debs
              > > > > > and William Jennings Bryan
              > > > > >
              > > > > > --- In tr-m@yahoogroups. com, "Keith Simon" <simonamerica@ >
              > > > wrote:
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Henry Pringle made a excellent living trying to knock TR
              off
              > > > his
              > > > > > > proverbial "high horse" in American public opinion in his
              > > > widely
              > > > > read
              > > > > > > biography Theodore Roosevelt - A Biography by Henry F.
              > Pringle
              > > > > and
              > > > > > you
              > > > > > > can read it online at the following URL.
              > > > > > > http://books. google.com/ books?id= x0WGYBSt2hsC&
              > output=html
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > While highly (and deliberately, in my opinion) critical
              of
              > TR,
              > > > > some
              > > > > > say
              > > > > > > that this book did much to damage TR's reputation which
              was
              > > not
              > > > > > really
              > > > > > > restored in the public eye until the Edmund Morris 1979
              > > > > biography.
              > > > > > > Nevertheless, even Morris' biography of TR makes
              reference
              > to
              > > > it.
              > > > > I
              > > > > > > found it useful as a sign of the post-WW1 iconaclast
              > attitude
              > > > > common
              > > > > > > among the so-called "lost generation." Your thoughts on
              this
              > > > book?
              > > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________
              > _________ _
              > > > > > Click here to find the perfect picture with our powerful
              photo
              > > > > search features.
              > > > > >
              > > > > http://thirdpartyof fers.juno. com/TGL2131/ fc/PnY6rbtzjionM
              > > > PGA0cWOR4YQN2
              > > > > 7vRJC9LRS382ZPOPZJT vcZ0bKOC/
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Send e-mail anywhere. No map, no compass. Get your Hotmail®
              > > account
              > > > now.
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • Linda E. Milano
              TR was actually planning on running again in 1920. He spent the last day of his life going through paperwork to make sure everything was in order and there
              Message 6 of 24 , Dec 15, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                TR was actually planning on running again in 1920.  He spent the last day of his life going through paperwork to make sure everything was in order and there was nothing the opposition could dredge up to throw at him during the campaign.
                 
                Best,
                Linda Milano
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 9:46 PM
                Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography of TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online

                He did live until 1919.  He probably would have been nominated in 1920 had he lived.

                Jim Gallen

                -- "Keith Simon" <simonamerica@ gmail.com> wrote:

                I think that one key to understanding TR was his search for balance
                between the conflicting social and political forces of his time as
                well as his absolute faith in the need for an ordered domestic and
                international community. I think the tragic example of his brother
                Elliot's slide into UN-controlled DIS-order and IM-balance served to
                warn him on a personal level of the of larger social and political
                perils of abandoning public "sanity" for either the anarchists on the
                ultra-left or the so-called "stand patters" on the reactionary right.

                TR was an incredible student of history and also well knew the
                dangers that both the national as well as the international community
                faced at the beginning of the 20th Century. His work to resolve the
                Russo-Japanese War, for example is the direct outgrowth of this
                search for balance and order - in the International Stage. His
                settling of the Coal Strike demonstrates this on the US National
                Stage as well.

                Had he lived and become president in 1912, I believe he would have
                served to prevent Germany from the slide into War. His international
                standing was so great that he might even have been able to mediated a
                peace settlement after the assasination of Arch-Duke Ferdinand of
                Serbia in Sarajevo that touched off World War 1. That's speculation
                to be sure, but Germany's Kaisar stood in awe of Roosevelt and both
                respected him as an international force for good (Speak Softly) as
                well as his willingness to prevent war (The Big Stick). Would that he
                would have been nominated in 1912 by his party. A tremendous loss to
                the World Sanity and Order it twas.

                as well as order --- In tr-m@yahoogroups. com, "jmgallen@.. ."
                <JMGallen@.. .> wrote:
                >
                > Dr. John Gable also warned me of factual distortions in Pringle's
                book.
                > Jim Gallen
                >
                > -- "Patrick J. Healy" <patrickjhealy2001@ ...> wrote:
                >
                > Pringle is a liberal and a neo-liberal at that -- enough said. I am
                > sure, had he lived in TR's time his heroes would have been Eugene
                Debs
                > and William Jennings Bryan
                >
                > --- In tr-m@yahoogroups. com, "Keith Simon" <simonamerica@ > wrote:
                > >
                > > Henry Pringle made a excellent living trying to knock TR off his
                > > proverbial "high horse" in American public opinion in his widely
                read
                > > biography Theodore Roosevelt - A Biography by Henry F. Pringle
                and
                > you
                > > can read it online at the following URL.
                > > http://books. google.com/ books?id= x0WGYBSt2hsC& output=html
                > >
                > > While highly (and deliberately, in my opinion) critical of TR,
                some
                > say
                > > that this book did much to damage TR's reputation which was not
                > really
                > > restored in the public eye until the Edmund Morris 1979
                biography.
                > > Nevertheless, even Morris' biography of TR makes reference to it.
                I
                > > found it useful as a sign of the post-WW1 iconaclast attitude
                common
                > > among the so-called "lost generation." Your thoughts on this book?
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                > Click here to find the perfect picture with our powerful photo
                search features.
                >
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              • Linda E. Milano
                That election was the first time that primaries were ever held - and TR won them. However, the Republican powers-that-were set aside the primary results and
                Message 7 of 24 , Dec 15, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  That election was the first time that primaries were ever held - and TR won them.  However, the Republican powers-that-were set aside the primary results and nominated Tart.  They were afraid of TR...
                   
                  Best,
                  Linda Milano
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 12:43 AM
                  Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography of TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online

                  He came within two primaries and 10,000 votes of defeating Taft and going on to an easy win over Wilson in 1912.   I'm writing a book that explores both the credibility and the consequence of the alternate scenario and the impact on the Great War is enormous.
                   
                  Although an admirer of TR, I am trying not to "give him any breaks" or take the "easy way out".

                  --- On Fri, 12/12/08, jmgallen@juno. com <JMGallen@Juno. com> wrote:
                  From: jmgallen@juno. com <JMGallen@Juno. com>
                  Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography of TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online
                  To: tr-m@yahoogroups. com
                  Date: Friday, December 12, 2008, 6:46 PM

                  He did live until 1919.  He probably would have been nominated in 1920 had he lived.
                  Jim Gallen

                  -- "Keith Simon" <simonamerica@ gmail.com> wrote:
                  I think that one key to understanding TR was his search for balance
                  between the conflicting social and political forces of his time as
                  well as his absolute faith in the need for an ordered domestic and
                  international community. I think the tragic example of his brother
                  Elliot's slide into UN-controlled DIS-order and IM-balance served to
                  warn him on a personal level of the of larger social and political
                  perils of abandoning public "sanity" for either the anarchists on the
                  ultra-left or the so-called "stand patters" on the reactionary right.

                  TR was an incredible student of history and also well knew the
                  dangers that both the national as well as the international community
                  faced at the beginning of the 20th Century. His work to resolve the
                  Russo-Japanese War, for example is the direct outgrowth of this
                  search for balance and order - in the International Stage. His
                  settling of the Coal Strike demonstrates this on the US National
                  Stage as well.

                  Had he lived and become president in 1912, I believe he would have
                  served to prevent Germany from the slide into War. His international
                  standing was so great that he might even have been able to mediated a
                  peace settlement after the assasination of Arch-Duke Ferdinand of
                  Serbia in Sarajevo that touched off World War 1. That's speculation
                  to be sure, but Germany's Kaisar stood in awe of Roosevelt and both
                  respected him as an international force for good (Speak Softly) as
                  well as his willingness to prevent war (The Big Stick). Would that he
                  would have been nominated in 1912 by his party. A tremendous loss to
                  the World Sanity and Order it twas.

                  as well as order --- In tr-m@yahoogroups. com, "jmgallen@.. ."
                  <JMGallen@.. .> wrote:
                  >
                  > Dr. John Gable also warned me of factual distortions in Pringle's
                  book.
                  > Jim Gallen
                  >
                  > -- "Patrick J. Healy" <patrickjhealy2001@ ...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Pringle is a liberal and a neo-liberal at that -- enough said. I am
                  > sure, had he lived in TR's time his heroes would have been Eugene
                  Debs
                  > and William Jennings Bryan
                  >
                  > --- In tr-m@yahoogroups. com, "Keith Simon" <simonamerica@ > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Henry Pringle made a excellent living trying to knock TR off his
                  > > proverbial "high horse" in American public opinion in his widely
                  read
                  > > biography Theodore Roosevelt - A Biography by Henry F. Pringle
                  and
                  > you
                  > > can read it online at the following URL.
                  > > http://books. google.com/ books?id= x0WGYBSt2hsC& output=html
                  > >
                  > > While highly (and deliberately, in my opinion) critical of TR,
                  some
                  > say
                  > > that this book did much to damage TR's reputation which was not
                  > really
                  > > restored in the public eye until the Edmund Morris 1979
                  biography.
                  > > Nevertheless, even Morris' biography of TR makes reference to it.
                  I
                  > > found it useful as a sign of the post-WW1 iconaclast attitude
                  common
                  > > among the so-called "lost generation." Your thoughts on this book?
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                  > Click here to find the perfect picture with our powerful photo
                  search features.
                  >
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                  7vRJC9LRS382ZPOPZJT vcZ0bKOC/
                  >



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                • Linda E. Milano
                  TR came home from his 1910 tour through Europe saying that there was going to be a war and that the US would be drawn into it, preaching readiness at that
                  Message 8 of 24 , Dec 15, 2008
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                    TR came home from his 1910 tour through Europe saying that there was going to be a war and that the US would be drawn into it, preaching readiness at that time.  This was especially so after his visit to Kaiser Wilhelm II to review the troops.
                     
                    Actually, Wilhelm sent TR a series of pictures taken at that event.  Wilhelm had personally written comments about people in the photos on the back of each, most of them highly unflattering.  When his staff realized what he had done, they requested that TR send the photos back, to be replaced by a set of identical photos without the comments.  TR respectfully declined, saying that he would not show the photos to anyone else or disclose the comments.  The photos, with comments, are still at Sagamore Hill, in a wooden box on top of TR's desk in the North Room.
                     
                    John Gable was always of the opinion that, had he won the 1912 election, TR would have been able to avert World War I - which in turn would have prevented World War II.
                     
                    At the end of the war, TR wrote a series of letters to European heads of state (especially the King of England) making suggestions about how the peace treaty should be set up.  They can be found in the eight and final book of "The Collected Letters of Theodore Roosevelt."  Again, if his suggestions had been followed, the conditions that led to World War II would have been averted.
                     
                    Best,
                    Linda Milano
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 12:38 AM
                    Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography of TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online

                    Your comments are interesting and inspiring.  I am actually writing an alternative history of the election of 1912 and the Great War that explores these questions and I sense that your views generally correspond to my own.

                    --- On Fri, 12/12/08, Keith Simon <simonamerica@ gmail.com> wrote:
                    From: Keith Simon <simonamerica@ gmail.com>
                    Subject: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography of TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online
                    To: tr-m@yahoogroups. com
                    Date: Friday, December 12, 2008, 3:21 PM

                    I think that one key to understanding TR was his search for balance
                    between the conflicting social and political forces of his time as
                    well as his absolute faith in the need for an ordered domestic and
                    international community. I think the tragic example of his brother
                    Elliot's slide into UN-controlled DIS-order and IM-balance served to
                    warn him on a personal level of the of larger social and political
                    perils of abandoning public "sanity" for either the anarchists on the
                    ultra-left or the so-called "stand patters" on the reactionary right.

                    TR was an incredible student of history and also well knew the
                    dangers that both the national as well as the international community
                    faced at the beginning of the 20th Century. His work to resolve the
                    Russo-Japanese War, for example is the direct outgrowth of this
                    search for balance and order - in the International Stage. His
                    settling of the Coal Strike demonstrates this on the US National
                    Stage as well.

                    Had he lived and become president in 1912, I believe he would have
                    served to prevent Germany from the slide into War. His international
                    standing was so great that he might even have been able to mediated a
                    peace settlement after the assasination of Arch-Duke Ferdinand of
                    Serbia in Sarajevo that touched off World War 1. That's speculation
                    to be sure, but Germany's Kaisar stood in awe of Roosevelt and both
                    respected him as an international force for good (Speak Softly) as
                    well as his willingness to prevent war (The Big Stick). Would that he
                    would have been nominated in 1912 by his party. A tremendous loss to
                    the World Sanity and Order it twas.

                    as well as order --- In tr-m@yahoogroups. com, "jmgallen@.. ."
                    <JMGallen@.. .> wrote:
                    >
                    > Dr. John Gable also warned me of factual distortions in Pringle's
                    book.
                    > Jim Gallen
                    >
                    > -- "Patrick J. Healy" <patrickjhealy2001@ ...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Pringle is a liberal and a neo-liberal at that -- enough said. I am
                    > sure, had he lived in TR's time his heroes would have been Eugene
                    Debs
                    > and William Jennings Bryan
                    >
                    > --- In tr-m@yahoogroups. com, "Keith Simon" <simonamerica@ > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Henry Pringle made a excellent living trying to knock TR off his
                    > > proverbial "high horse" in American public opinion in his widely
                    read
                    > > biography Theodore Roosevelt - A Biography by Henry F. Pringle
                    and
                    > you
                    > > can read it online at the following URL.
                    > > http://books. google.com/ books?id= x0WGYBSt2hsC& output=html
                    > >
                    > > While highly (and deliberately, in my opinion) critical of TR,
                    some
                    > say
                    > > that this book did much to damage TR's reputation which was not
                    > really
                    > > restored in the public eye until the Edmund Morris 1979
                    biography.
                    > > Nevertheless, even Morris' biography of TR makes reference to it.
                    I
                    > > found it useful as a sign of the post-WW1 iconaclast attitude
                    common
                    > > among the so-called "lost generation." Your thoughts on this book?
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                    > Click here to find the perfect picture with our powerful photo
                    search features.
                    >
                    http://thirdpartyof fers.juno. com/TGL2131/ fc/PnY6rbtzjionM PGA0cWOR4YQN2
                    7vRJC9LRS382ZPOPZJT vcZ0bKOC/
                    >


                  • Larry Bodine
                    TR also had a photographic memory. He could recall everything he read, even if it was a decade earlier. Larry Bodine, Esq. Charter Member, Board of Directors
                    Message 9 of 24 , Dec 15, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment

                      TR also had a photographic memory.  He could recall everything he read, even if it was a decade earlier.

                       

                       

                      Larry Bodine, Esq.

                      Charter Member, Board of Directors

                      Chicago Bullmoose Chapter

                      Theodore Roosevelt Association

                      691 Wingate Road | Glen Ellyn, IL 60137

                      630.942.0977

                      Lbodine@...

                      www.chicagobullmoose.org

                      “It is not the critic who counts. The credit belongs

                      To the man who is actually in the arena.”

                       

                      From: tr-m@yahoogroups.com [mailto:tr-m@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Patrick J. Healy
                      Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 8:50 AM
                      To: tr-m@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [tr-m] Re: Thanks for the Great Ideas Expressed on Theodore Roosevelt

                       

                      This post raises, albeit in a backhanded manner, one of the most
                      lamentable aspects of TRs life. Despite mountains of evidence to the
                      contrary, he remains THE most underrated intellectual ever to occupy
                      the White House. The general public perception, particularly amoung
                      young Americans, is that he was a macho neanderthal somewhere to the
                      right of Rambo.

                      Few people care about the fact that he was fluent in six languages --
                      besides Latin and Greek -- that he wrote 42 books, wore a Phi Beta
                      Kappa Key, won a Nobel Peace Prize, predicted the wars between
                      America and Germany or foresaw them as postwar allies against
                      Russia. This last, btw, was from a paper he wrote at Harvard when he
                      was 19 -- about seven years after he first expressed his own
                      Presidential ambitions.

                      Most of our young people today find it hard to believe that such a
                      man ever even existed. Then again, why set the bar too high? Most
                      of their contemporary role models would have a real problem with that.

                      --- In tr-m@yahoogroups.com, "Keith Simon" <simonamerica@...> wrote:

                      >
                      > Well some great recent films have been on totally obsure topics
                      like
                      > that new Australia film.
                      >
                      > I suspect few Americans ever even heard of Darwin, Australia before
                      > the movie, or even realized that the Japanese raided that part of
                      the
                      > Australia. It took a great dramatic movie to grab the public's
                      > attention. That movie is magnificent and is a real instant classic.
                      > After people actuallly show up and watch the movie, maybe they'll
                      > bother to follow up with some online research or a book or the
                      > History Channel. This is why I've contributed to the wikipedia
                      > article on TR and uploaded most of the photos you'll see on that
                      site
                      > and expanded the coverage to a discussion of one of the biographer,
                      > Pringles's points, the Trip down the River of Doubt and also
                      expanded
                      > almost ALL the articles on TR's family including his parents, and
                      > even his Bulloch uncles - Why. Because, like it or not, people DO
                      use
                      > even the often non-serious articles at wikipedia.org. And I KNOW
                      some
                      > folks in this group are fairly hostile to wikipedia. Nevertheless,
                      it
                      > remains the first place a huge crowd goes to. I've added a LOT of
                      > material, not only on the Roosevelts but on Lincoln, the Battle of
                      > the Little Bighorn, artillery "call for fire," and a lot of
                      obscure
                      > little items that I'm either interested in or trained in - like US
                      > Army/Marine Corps Artillery, for example - good ole Fort Sill.
                      >
                      > So, I think that dramatic movie and TV series can really be a
                      portal
                      > to renews public interest in historical topics. The HBO series,
                      > Rome, while unbelievably violent, pornographic and fairly
                      disgusting
                      > at times, really grabbed the public's immagination. By the way, as
                      an
                      > ond High School and college Latin student, I DID find one
                      inaccuracy
                      > in the movie that, to my suprise, escaped Terrence Stamp, the
                      > historical consultant's inspection. In season one of that series,
                      > Julius Caesar's neice, Atia says, "Well as they say, 'nothing new
                      > under the sun.'" Mr. Stamp must have been sleeping in his own Latin
                      > class because the Romans actually used to say, "Nulla nova sub
                      luna."
                      > (not sub sola) which is clearly translas "nothing new under the
                      > moon!" I was genuinely suprised that that one slipped past the
                      > historians. But I guess a ancient historian isn't necessarlily a
                      > classical languages student. There was once a time - TR's time,
                      that
                      > this would have been an absolute impossibility. All ancient
                      > historians of his day would have known both Latin as well as some
                      > Greek - at least enough to get by. TR, himself studied both Latin
                      and
                      > Greek to prepare for college at the then Harvard College.
                      Apparently,
                      > he continued from time to time, to read ancient texts. I think it
                      was
                      > Edmund Morris who gives the example of TR campaigning for NY
                      > governor, and TR is asked on the train, by a newspaper reporter,
                      the
                      > name and topic of a book that TR seems so totally immersed in. TR
                      > tells the reporter that he would probably not be interested in the
                      > book. When TR tosses the book to the writer, the writer is amazed
                      > that the book is on the topic of Greek Philosophy, with many
                      passages
                      > from Aristotle and Plato, etc. - but then the amazing thing - the
                      > entire text of the discussion is in GERMAN! So here is TR reading
                      a
                      > book in German about Greek philosophy! I LOVED that little scene
                      that
                      > sheds some light into the enormous breath and scope of TR's
                      academic
                      > interests. Studying in Dresden, Germany as a child must have
                      > certainly helped lay the groundwork for TR's continued interest in
                      > German - he loved the great German writers, Goethe and Schiller too
                      > and quoted hundereds of lines of their poetry to a totallu amazed
                      > group of German businessman visiting the White House who said that
                      > they, themselves were embarassed to admit that, they had not even
                      > thought much about German literature since their university days
                      > (Morris, again, I think it was)
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > rraliaa during the war. You have to put enough story lineand
                      passsion
                      > and umpph into--- In tr-m@yahoogroups.com,
                      "Patrick J. Healy"
                      > <patrickjhealy2001@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > The average American probably would not turn off American Idol
                      for
                      > > ANY book -- and that includes this author. On the other hand, my
                      > > niece is already working up a cast for the TV-miniseries!
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In tr-m@yahoogroups.com,
                      "Keith Simon" <simonamerica@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Patrick
                      > > >
                      > > > What a GREAT parallel history concept!
                      > > >
                      > > > Gallipolli, ,Savros Bay, Inchon landing (minus any counterpart
                      of
                      > > > Wolmi-Do Island (yup - no such dramatic tidal fluctuations at
                      > > > Gallipolli as in the Inchon attack),Asquith. Verdun, le mot de
                      > > > Cambronne, the St Michiel Salient, Metz and the Sedan, Jutland,
                      > the
                      > > > Kriegsmarine, the Battle of the Somme-Passchendale, Aisne,
                      > Michael
                      > > as
                      > > > Czar; Kerenksy becomes Prime Minister? Wowie Zowie! Incredible
                      > > > stuff, but I'm not sure the average Joe or Jane will turn off
                      > > > American Idol and to dive into such a book. I'm sure legions of
                      > > > history fans, amatuer as well as professional will really have
                      fun
                      > > > with such a book! And "I" will certainly eat it up! So
                      keep at
                      > it,
                      > > > man!
                      > > >
                      > > > And congratulations on both your work and Dr./Commander
                      Hendrix's
                      > > > work in progress. These great reports really make me proud to
                      be
                      > > > associated in some way with the people that have joined this
                      > group -
                      > > > whether or not they are active contributors to the posts.
                      > > >
                      > > > Mr Gallen's comments on Dr. Gable's study were really useful. I
                      > > > didn't even know he undertook such a study - that's because I'm
                      a
                      > > > POST Gable student of TR, unfortunately. This is why I also
                      > > > appreciate the great contributions and ideas expressed by Linda
                      > > > Milano and other friends of Dr. John. I consider it a personal
                      > > > tragedy of mine, that the Theodore Roosevelt Association Folks
                      > came
                      > > > out here to Portland, OR for their 2005 Annual Meeting and here
                      I
                      > > > was - not a half hour away from a group I didn't even know
                      > > existed!!!
                      > > > This is why I'm so adamant about getting the word out to
                      potential
                      > > > members both of this group as well as the Theodore Roosevelt
                      > > > Association which can be found at www.theodoreroosevelt.org URL.
                      > > >
                      > > > Thanks to Harry Lembeck and the other recent contributors as
                      well.
                      > > >
                      > > > Keith
                      > > >
                      > > > This is something I really love about this group that - the
                      > > > companionship of people who both admire as well as appreciate
                      the
                      > > > enormous scope of Theodore Roosevelt!
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In tr-m@yahoogroups.com,
                      Patrick Healy <patrickjhealy2001@>
                      > > > wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Actually, the Serbians start the war in both scenarios
                      > (supporters
                      > > > of Serbia will not like my book).  TR responds more
                      forcefully
                      to
                      > > > both the British Admiralty Orders in Council and Germany's
                      > > > Declaration of Unrestricted Submarine Warfare than Wilson did
                      and
                      > > his
                      > > > preparations for combat are far more progressive and realistic.
                      > > > >  
                      > > > > As you point out, Theodore Roosevelt's skills as a diplomat
                      and
                      > > > negotiator remain seriously underrated.  I plan to address
                      those
                      > in
                      > > a
                      > > > sequel already under development that covers the  postwar
                      period
                      > > > (1917-1919).  The present work deals with the war, the
                      runup to
                      it
                      > > > and the period immediately afterwards (1913 -1916) and
                      showcases
                      > his
                      > > > skills a Commander-in- Chief -- strategist, military technocrat,
                      > > > logistician, and consummate master of warfare as a political and
                      > > > diplomatic art and simply a military one.
                      > > > >  
                      > > > > Some highlights --
                      > > > >  
                      > > > >       Gallipolli -- Intial
                      landings by the ANZAC achieve only
                      > > > limited success until.....a brilliant amphibious stroke by
                      > American
                      > > > Marines and Army Regulars awards the Allies the capture of
                      > > > Constantiople.  I had a lot of fun with this one since
                      their
                      > landing
                      > > > ground at Savros Bay was similar to that of the Inchon landing
                      > > (minus
                      > > > any counterpart of Wolmi-Do Island.  Churchill, the
                      mastermind
                      of
                      > > the
                      > > > original, if somewhat clumsy attack is transformed into a hero
                      by
                      > > the
                      > > > US Marine Corps and succeeds Asquith as Prime Minister.
                      > > > >  
                      > > > >      Verdun -- All the elements of a
                      Gigantic Custer's Last
                      > Stand
                      > > > with one happy difference.  It is a success.  The
                      battle-weary
                      but
                      > > > tenacious French veterans fighting on against
                      the relentless
                      > German
                      > > > attack; their battle-wise commander re-echoing le mot
                      > > > de Cambronne when called on to surrender; the dramatic
                      arrival
                      of
                      > > the
                      > > > American relief force, spearheaded by the "Rainbow
                      Division",
                      > under
                      > > > their handsome young general; the lightning counterattack that
                      > > > reduces the St Michiel Salient and lays the groundwork for the
                      > > > attacks on Metz and Sedan.
                      > > > >  
                      > > > >    Jutland -- The combined Anglo-American Atlantic
                      Fleet
                      deals a
                      > > > deathblow to the Kriegsmarine, nicely complimenting the success
                      > of
                      > > US
                      > > > convoys and destroyers against the U-boats in the North
                      Atlantic
                      > the
                      > > > year before.
                      > > > >  
                      > > > >    Somme-Passchendale -- A slow steady advance by
                      the British
                      > > > supported by the US Second Army gradually pushes the Germans
                      back
                      > > > >  
                      > > > >    Aisne -- With the bulk of the German Army
                      tied down
                      against
                      > the
                      > > > British further north and west and against the Franco-American
                      > drive
                      > > > in the Saar, the US Third Army, employing its powerful new
                      > brigade
                      > > of
                      > > > tanks, strikes the center of the German lines in "Operation
                      Grand
                      > > > Slam.
                      > > > >  
                      > > > >   Russia -- No revolution, but Rasputin is killed;
                      Michael
                      > > succeeds
                      > > > Nicholas as Czar; Kerenksy becomes Prime Minister
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > From: Henry Hendrix <henryhendrix@>
                      > > > > Subject: RE: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical
                      Biography
                      > of
                      > > TR
                      > > > by Henry Pr ingle - Online
                      > > > > To: tr-m@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > > Date: Saturday, December 13, 2008, 11:56 AM
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I felt compelled to jump in here as I am in the final
                      process
                      of
                      > > > editing my own book on TR and so many of the topics raised here
                      > have
                      > > > been part of the themes I have tried to address in my
                      research. 
                      > > > First the Pringle book. Pringle represents the first of the
                      > > > revisionist camp that emerged in the late 1920s and early
                      1930s. 
                      > > > This camp, intellectually descendent out of the Marx-Hegallian
                      > > school
                      > > > of history (know, I am not saying that they were all communist)
                      > that
                      > > > believed that government was a necessary tool in the process of
                      > > > perfecting man.  Pringle and Howard Hill and Fred Rippy all
                      wrote
                      > > > books very critical of Roosevelt as a means of lowering his
                      > > > legitimacy in the eyes of the general public even as they
                      raised
                      > the
                      > > > historical profile of their hero, Woodrow Wilson.  TR
                      represented
                      > > > rugged individualism, Wilson represented collective
                      responsability
                      > > > and in the great battle of ideas it was necessary for one ideal
                      to
                      > > > defeat the other.  I have always thought
                      > > > > of Pringle in this light.
                      > > > > I completely agree with Keith that TR was the epitome of
                      balance
                      > > > while in office, however he was not balanced out of
                      office.  A
                      > > review
                      > > > of his speeches show his tendancy towards radicalism when not in
                      > > > power.  Like Patrick, I have often wondered what he would
                      have
                      > been
                      > > > like if he had been President during WWI, but then I have to
                      > > remember
                      > > > that TR had several chances to take this nation into war during
                      > his
                      > > > administration and he found a way to negotiate or mediate his
                      way
                      > > out
                      > > > of every one of them.  There was no greater champion of
                      > negotiation
                      > > > and dialogue in the world during his presidency, so Patrick you
                      > will
                      > > > need to be very careful about how you introduce your scenario,
                      > maybe
                      > > > have someone else start the war, and let TR finish it.
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > To: tr-m@yahoogroups. com
                      > > > > From: patrickjhealy2001@ yahoo.com
                      > > > > Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 21:38:27 -0800
                      > > > > Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical
                      Biography
                      > of
                      > > TR
                      > > > by Henry Pr ingle - Online
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Your comments are interesting and inspiring.  I am
                      actually
                      > > writing
                      > > > an alternative history of the election of 1912 and the Great
                      War
                      > > that
                      > > > explores these questions and I sense that your views generally
                      > > > correspond to my own.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- On Fri, 12/12/08, Keith Simon <simonamerica@
                      gmail.com>
                      > wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > From: Keith Simon <simonamerica@ gmail.com>
                      > > > > Subject: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography
                      of
                      TR
                      > by
                      > > > Henry Pr ingle - Online
                      > > > > To: tr-m@yahoogroups. com
                      > > > > Date: Friday, December 12, 2008, 3:21 PM
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I think that one key to understanding TR was his search for
                      > > balance
                      > > > > between the conflicting social and political forces of his
                      time
                      > as
                      > > > > well as his absolute faith in the need for an ordered
                      domestic
                      > and
                      > > > > international community. I think the tragic example of his
                      > brother
                      > > > > Elliot's slide into UN-controlled DIS-order and IM-balance
                      > served
                      > > > to
                      > > > > warn him on a personal level of the of larger social and
                      > political
                      > > > > perils of abandoning public "sanity" for either
                      the
                      anarchists
                      > on
                      > > > the
                      > > > > ultra-left or the so-called "stand patters" on
                      the reactionary
                      > > > right.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > TR was an incredible student of history and also well knew
                      the
                      > > > > dangers that both the national as well as the international
                      > > > community
                      > > > > faced at the beginning of the 20th Century. His work to
                      resolve
                      > > the
                      > > > > Russo-Japanese War, for example is the direct outgrowth of
                      this
                      > > > > search for balance and order - in the International Stage.
                      His
                      > > > > settling of the Coal Strike demonstrates this on the US
                      National
                      > > > > Stage as well.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Had he lived and become president in 1912, I believe he
                      would
                      > have
                      > > > > served to prevent Germany from the slide into War. His
                      > > > international
                      > > > > standing was so great that he might even have been able to
                      > > mediated
                      > > > a
                      > > > > peace settlement after the assasination of Arch-Duke
                      Ferdinand
                      > of
                      > > > > Serbia in Sarajevo that touched off World War 1. That's
                      > > speculation
                      > > > > to be sure, but Germany's Kaisar stood in awe of Roosevelt
                      and
                      > > both
                      > > > > respected him as an international force for good (Speak
                      Softly)
                      > as
                      > > > > well as his willingness to prevent war (The Big Stick).
                      Would
                      > that
                      > > > he
                      > > > > would have been nominated in 1912 by his party. A
                      tremendous
                      > loss
                      > > > to
                      > > > > the World Sanity and Order it twas.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > as well as order --- In tr-m@yahoogroups. com,
                      "jmgallen@ ."
                      > > > > <JMGallen@ .> wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Dr. John Gable also warned me of factual distortions
                      in
                      > > Pringle's
                      > > > > book.
                      > > > > > Jim Gallen
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > -- "Patrick J. Healy" <patrickjhealy2001@
                      ...> wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Pringle is a liberal and a neo-liberal at that --
                      enough
                      > said. I
                      > > > am
                      > > > > > sure, had he lived in TR's time his heroes would have
                      been
                      > > Eugene
                      > > > > Debs
                      > > > > > and William Jennings Bryan
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > --- In tr-m@yahoogroups. com, "Keith Simon"
                      <simonamerica@ >
                      > > > wrote:
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Henry Pringle made a excellent living trying to
                      knock TR
                      off
                      > > > his
                      > > > > > > proverbial "high horse" in American
                      public opinion in his
                      > > > widely
                      > > > > read
                      > > > > > > biography Theodore Roosevelt - A Biography by
                      Henry F.
                      > Pringle
                      > > > > and
                      > > > > > you
                      > > > > > > can read it online at the following URL.
                      > > > > > > http://books.
                      google.com/ books?id= x0WGYBSt2hsC&
                      > output=html
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > While highly (and deliberately, in my opinion)
                      critical
                      of
                      > TR,
                      > > > > some
                      > > > > > say
                      > > > > > > that this book did much to damage TR's reputation
                      which
                      was
                      > > not
                      > > > > > really
                      > > > > > > restored in the public eye until the Edmund
                      Morris 1979
                      > > > > biography.
                      > > > > > > Nevertheless, even Morris' biography of TR makes
                      reference
                      > to
                      > > > it.
                      > > > > I
                      > > > > > > found it useful as a sign of the post-WW1
                      iconaclast
                      > attitude
                      > > > > common
                      > > > > > > among the so-called "lost generation."
                      Your thoughts on
                      this
                      > > > book?
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________
                      > _________ _
                      > > > > > Click here to find the perfect picture with our
                      powerful
                      photo
                      > > > > search features.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > http://thirdpartyof
                      fers.juno. com/TGL2131/ fc/PnY6rbtzjionM
                      > > > PGA0cWOR4YQN2
                      > > > > 7vRJC9LRS382ZPOPZJT vcZ0bKOC/
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Send e-mail anywhere. No map, no compass. Get your Hotmail®
                      > > account
                      > > > now.
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >

                    • Patrick Healy
                      My book gives TR the 10,000 votes he needed to take two more primaries which would have put him over the top.  The results of removing this pawn from the
                      Message 10 of 24 , Dec 15, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        My book gives TR the 10,000 votes he needed to take two more primaries which would have put him over the top.  The results of removing this pawn from the historical chessboard for America are merely interesting; for the world they are transformational.

                        --- On Mon, 12/15/08, Linda E. Milano <lemilano@...> wrote:
                        From: Linda E. Milano <lemilano@...>
                        Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography of TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online
                        To: tr-m@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Monday, December 15, 2008, 8:59 AM

                        That election was the first time that primaries were ever held - and TR won them.  However, the Republican powers-that- were set aside the primary results and nominated Tart.  They were afraid of TR...
                         
                        Best,
                        Linda Milano
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 12:43 AM
                        Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography of TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online

                        He came within two primaries and 10,000 votes of defeating Taft and going on to an easy win over Wilson in 1912.   I'm writing a book that explores both the credibility and the consequence of the alternate scenario and the impact on the Great War is enormous.
                         
                        Although an admirer of TR, I am trying not to "give him any breaks" or take the "easy way out".

                        --- On Fri, 12/12/08, jmgallen@juno. com <JMGallen@Juno. com> wrote:
                        From: jmgallen@juno. com <JMGallen@Juno. com>
                        Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography of TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online
                        To: tr-m@yahoogroups. com
                        Date: Friday, December 12, 2008, 6:46 PM

                        He did live until 1919.  He probably would have been nominated in 1920 had he lived.
                        Jim Gallen

                        -- "Keith Simon" <simonamerica@ gmail.com> wrote:
                        I think that one key to understanding TR was his search for balance
                        between the conflicting social and political forces of his time as
                        well as his absolute faith in the need for an ordered domestic and
                        international community. I think the tragic example of his brother
                        Elliot's slide into UN-controlled DIS-order and IM-balance served to
                        warn him on a personal level of the of larger social and political
                        perils of abandoning public "sanity" for either the anarchists on the
                        ultra-left or the so-called "stand patters" on the reactionary right.

                        TR was an incredible student of history and also well knew the
                        dangers that both the national as well as the international community
                        faced at the beginning of the 20th Century. His work to resolve the
                        Russo-Japanese War, for example is the direct outgrowth of this
                        search for balance and order - in the International Stage. His
                        settling of the Coal Strike demonstrates this on the US National
                        Stage as well.

                        Had he lived and become president in 1912, I believe he would have
                        served to prevent Germany from the slide into War. His international
                        standing was so great that he might even have been able to mediated a
                        peace settlement after the assasination of Arch-Duke Ferdinand of
                        Serbia in Sarajevo that touched off World War 1. That's speculation
                        to be sure, but Germany's Kaisar stood in awe of Roosevelt and both
                        respected him as an international force for good (Speak Softly) as
                        well as his willingness to prevent war (The Big Stick). Would that he
                        would have been nominated in 1912 by his party. A tremendous loss to
                        the World Sanity and Order it twas.

                        as well as order --- In tr-m@yahoogroups. com, "jmgallen@.. ."
                        <JMGallen@.. .> wrote:
                        >
                        > Dr. John Gable also warned me of factual distortions in Pringle's
                        book.
                        > Jim Gallen
                        >
                        > -- "Patrick J. Healy" <patrickjhealy2001@ ...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Pringle is a liberal and a neo-liberal at that -- enough said. I am
                        > sure, had he lived in TR's time his heroes would have been Eugene
                        Debs
                        > and William Jennings Bryan
                        >
                        > --- In tr-m@yahoogroups. com, "Keith Simon" <simonamerica@ > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Henry Pringle made a excellent living trying to knock TR off his
                        > > proverbial "high horse" in American public opinion in his widely
                        read
                        > > biography Theodore Roosevelt - A Biography by Henry F. Pringle
                        and
                        > you
                        > > can read it online at the following URL.
                        > > http://books. google.com/ books?id= x0WGYBSt2hsC& output=html
                        > >
                        > > While highly (and deliberately, in my opinion) critical of TR,
                        some
                        > say
                        > > that this book did much to damage TR's reputation which was not
                        > really
                        > > restored in the public eye until the Edmund Morris 1979
                        biography.
                        > > Nevertheless, even Morris' biography of TR makes reference to it.
                        I
                        > > found it useful as a sign of the post-WW1 iconaclast attitude
                        common
                        > > among the so-called "lost generation." Your thoughts on this book?
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                        > Click here to find the perfect picture with our powerful photo
                        search features.
                        >
                        http://thirdpartyof fers.juno. com/TGL2131/ fc/PnY6rbtzjionM PGA0cWOR4YQN2
                        7vRJC9LRS382ZPOPZJT vcZ0bKOC/
                        >



                        ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ ___
                        Save $15 on Flowers and Gifts from FTD!
                        Shop now at www.ftd.com/ 17007



                      • Patrick Healy
                        I do not agree that TR could have prevented World War One.  The US Navy he would have inherited was only fourth largest and only about half as strong as
                        Message 11 of 24 , Dec 15, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I do not agree that TR could have prevented World War One.  The US Navy he would have inherited was only fourth largest and only about half as strong as Germany.  The Army was tiny and any substantial buildup would have been hard for him to justify under prewar conditions.  Unquestionably he would have intervened early and with greater effectiveness than Wilson did; I believe and my research I think supports the view that the difference would have been somewhere between decisive and spectacular.  I do not think there is any doubt that he would have shortened the war and reduced the loss of life by a third to half!
                           
                          The Peace Treaty would have been more realistic and hence more just.  TR also believed that America and Germany would eventually HAVE to become allies against Russia.  Whether he would have been able to prevent World War II by pre-emptive diplomacy twenty years removed is more questionable -- particularly with rspect to Japan.  However, certainly the history of the Second World War, would have been very different -- it is not even clear what the alignments would have been, let alone anything else.

                          --- On Mon, 12/15/08, Linda E. Milano <lemilano@...> wrote:
                          From: Linda E. Milano <lemilano@...>
                          Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography of TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online
                          To: tr-m@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Monday, December 15, 2008, 9:14 AM

                          TR came home from his 1910 tour through Europe saying that there was going to be a war and that the US would be drawn into it, preaching readiness at that time.  This was especially so after his visit to Kaiser Wilhelm II to review the troops.
                           
                          Actually, Wilhelm sent TR a series of pictures taken at that event.  Wilhelm had personally written comments about people in the photos on the back of each, most of them highly unflattering.  When his staff realized what he had done, they requested that TR send the photos back, to be replaced by a set of identical photos without the comments.  TR respectfully declined, saying that he would not show the photos to anyone else or disclose the comments.  The photos, with comments, are still at Sagamore Hill, in a wooden box on top of TR's desk in the North Room.
                           
                          John Gable was always of the opinion that, had he won the 1912 election, TR would have been able to avert World War I - which in turn would have prevented World War II.
                           
                          At the end of the war, TR wrote a series of letters to European heads of state (especially the King of England) making suggestions about how the peace treaty should be set up.  They can be found in the eight and final book of "The Collected Letters of Theodore Roosevelt."  Again, if his suggestions had been followed, the conditions that led to World War II would have been averted.
                           
                          Best,
                          Linda Milano
                           
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 12:38 AM
                          Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography of TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online

                          Your comments are interesting and inspiring.  I am actually writing an alternative history of the election of 1912 and the Great War that explores these questions and I sense that your views generally correspond to my own.

                          --- On Fri, 12/12/08, Keith Simon <simonamerica@ gmail.com> wrote:
                          From: Keith Simon <simonamerica@ gmail.com>
                          Subject: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography of TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online
                          To: tr-m@yahoogroups. com
                          Date: Friday, December 12, 2008, 3:21 PM

                          I think that one key to understanding TR was his search for balance
                          between the conflicting social and political forces of his time as
                          well as his absolute faith in the need for an ordered domestic and
                          international community. I think the tragic example of his brother
                          Elliot's slide into UN-controlled DIS-order and IM-balance served to
                          warn him on a personal level of the of larger social and political
                          perils of abandoning public "sanity" for either the anarchists on the
                          ultra-left or the so-called "stand patters" on the reactionary right.

                          TR was an incredible student of history and also well knew the
                          dangers that both the national as well as the international community
                          faced at the beginning of the 20th Century. His work to resolve the
                          Russo-Japanese War, for example is the direct outgrowth of this
                          search for balance and order - in the International Stage. His
                          settling of the Coal Strike demonstrates this on the US National
                          Stage as well.

                          Had he lived and become president in 1912, I believe he would have
                          served to prevent Germany from the slide into War. His international
                          standing was so great that he might even have been able to mediated a
                          peace settlement after the assasination of Arch-Duke Ferdinand of
                          Serbia in Sarajevo that touched off World War 1. That's speculation
                          to be sure, but Germany's Kaisar stood in awe of Roosevelt and both
                          respected him as an international force for good (Speak Softly) as
                          well as his willingness to prevent war (The Big Stick). Would that he
                          would have been nominated in 1912 by his party. A tremendous loss to
                          the World Sanity and Order it twas.

                          as well as order --- In tr-m@yahoogroups. com, "jmgallen@.. ."
                          <JMGallen@.. .> wrote:
                          >
                          > Dr. John Gable also warned me of factual distortions in Pringle's
                          book.
                          > Jim Gallen
                          >
                          > -- "Patrick J. Healy" <patrickjhealy2001@ ...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Pringle is a liberal and a neo-liberal at that -- enough said. I am
                          > sure, had he lived in TR's time his heroes would have been Eugene
                          Debs
                          > and William Jennings Bryan
                          >
                          > --- In tr-m@yahoogroups. com, "Keith Simon" <simonamerica@ > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Henry Pringle made a excellent living trying to knock TR off his
                          > > proverbial "high horse" in American public opinion in his widely
                          read
                          > > biography Theodore Roosevelt - A Biography by Henry F. Pringle
                          and
                          > you
                          > > can read it online at the following URL.
                          > > http://books. google.com/ books?id= x0WGYBSt2hsC& output=html
                          > >
                          > > While highly (and deliberately, in my opinion) critical of TR,
                          some
                          > say
                          > > that this book did much to damage TR's reputation which was not
                          > really
                          > > restored in the public eye until the Edmund Morris 1979
                          biography.
                          > > Nevertheless, even Morris' biography of TR makes reference to it.
                          I
                          > > found it useful as a sign of the post-WW1 iconaclast attitude
                          common
                          > > among the so-called "lost generation." Your thoughts on this book?
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                          > Click here to find the perfect picture with our powerful photo
                          search features.
                          >
                          http://thirdpartyof fers.juno. com/TGL2131/ fc/PnY6rbtzjionM PGA0cWOR4YQN2
                          7vRJC9LRS382ZPOPZJT vcZ0bKOC/
                          >



                        • Linda E. Milano
                          You re thinking military options - I m talking diplomatic. Even in 1910 TR saw it coming. Also, many of the issues that set off Germany in the 1930 s and
                          Message 12 of 24 , Dec 15, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            You're thinking military options - I'm talking diplomatic.  Even in 1910 TR saw it coming.
                             
                            Also, many of the issues that set off Germany in the 1930's and 1940's were a direct result of the peace treaty that ended World War I.
                             
                            And, even while he was in the White House, TR warned about Japan.  A more active watch might have prevented a lot of problems.
                             
                            Best,
                            Linda Milano
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:22 PM
                            Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography of TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online

                            I do not agree that TR could have prevented World War One.  The US Navy he would have inherited was only fourth largest and only about half as strong as Germany.  The Army was tiny and any substantial buildup would have been hard for him to justify under prewar conditions.  Unquestionably he would have intervened early and with greater effectiveness than Wilson did; I believe and my research I think supports the view that the difference would have been somewhere between decisive and spectacular.  I do not think there is any doubt that he would have shortened the war and reduced the loss of life by a third to half!
                             
                            The Peace Treaty would have been more realistic and hence more just.  TR also believed that America and Germany would eventually HAVE to become allies against Russia.  Whether he would have been able to prevent World War II by pre-emptive diplomacy twenty years removed is more questionable -- particularly with rspect to Japan.  However, certainly the history of the Second World War, would have been very different -- it is not even clear what the alignments would have been, let alone anything else.

                            --- On Mon, 12/15/08, Linda E. Milano <lemilano@optonline. net> wrote:
                            From: Linda E. Milano <lemilano@optonline. net>
                            Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography of TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online
                            To: tr-m@yahoogroups. com
                            Date: Monday, December 15, 2008, 9:14 AM

                            TR came home from his 1910 tour through Europe saying that there was going to be a war and that the US would be drawn into it, preaching readiness at that time.  This was especially so after his visit to Kaiser Wilhelm II to review the troops.
                             
                            Actually, Wilhelm sent TR a series of pictures taken at that event.  Wilhelm had personally written comments about people in the photos on the back of each, most of them highly unflattering.  When his staff realized what he had done, they requested that TR send the photos back, to be replaced by a set of identical photos without the comments.  TR respectfully declined, saying that he would not show the photos to anyone else or disclose the comments.  The photos, with comments, are still at Sagamore Hill, in a wooden box on top of TR's desk in the North Room.
                             
                            John Gable was always of the opinion that, had he won the 1912 election, TR would have been able to avert World War I - which in turn would have prevented World War II.
                             
                            At the end of the war, TR wrote a series of letters to European heads of state (especially the King of England) making suggestions about how the peace treaty should be set up.  They can be found in the eight and final book of "The Collected Letters of Theodore Roosevelt."  Again, if his suggestions had been followed, the conditions that led to World War II would have been averted.
                             
                            Best,
                            Linda Milano
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 12:38 AM
                            Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography of TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online

                            Your comments are interesting and inspiring.  I am actually writing an alternative history of the election of 1912 and the Great War that explores these questions and I sense that your views generally correspond to my own.

                            --- On Fri, 12/12/08, Keith Simon <simonamerica@ gmail.com> wrote:
                            From: Keith Simon <simonamerica@ gmail.com>
                            Subject: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography of TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online
                            To: tr-m@yahoogroups. com
                            Date: Friday, December 12, 2008, 3:21 PM

                            I think that one key to understanding TR was his search for balance
                            between the conflicting social and political forces of his time as
                            well as his absolute faith in the need for an ordered domestic and
                            international community. I think the tragic example of his brother
                            Elliot's slide into UN-controlled DIS-order and IM-balance served to
                            warn him on a personal level of the of larger social and political
                            perils of abandoning public "sanity" for either the anarchists on the
                            ultra-left or the so-called "stand patters" on the reactionary right.

                            TR was an incredible student of history and also well knew the
                            dangers that both the national as well as the international community
                            faced at the beginning of the 20th Century. His work to resolve the
                            Russo-Japanese War, for example is the direct outgrowth of this
                            search for balance and order - in the International Stage. His
                            settling of the Coal Strike demonstrates this on the US National
                            Stage as well.

                            Had he lived and become president in 1912, I believe he would have
                            served to prevent Germany from the slide into War. His international
                            standing was so great that he might even have been able to mediated a
                            peace settlement after the assasination of Arch-Duke Ferdinand of
                            Serbia in Sarajevo that touched off World War 1. That's speculation
                            to be sure, but Germany's Kaisar stood in awe of Roosevelt and both
                            respected him as an international force for good (Speak Softly) as
                            well as his willingness to prevent war (The Big Stick). Would that he
                            would have been nominated in 1912 by his party. A tremendous loss to
                            the World Sanity and Order it twas.

                            as well as order --- In tr-m@yahoogroups. com, "jmgallen@.. ."
                            <JMGallen@.. .> wrote:
                            >
                            > Dr. John Gable also warned me of factual distortions in Pringle's
                            book.
                            > Jim Gallen
                            >
                            > -- "Patrick J. Healy" <patrickjhealy2001@ ...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Pringle is a liberal and a neo-liberal at that -- enough said. I am
                            > sure, had he lived in TR's time his heroes would have been Eugene
                            Debs
                            > and William Jennings Bryan
                            >
                            > --- In tr-m@yahoogroups. com, "Keith Simon" <simonamerica@ > wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Henry Pringle made a excellent living trying to knock TR off his
                            > > proverbial "high horse" in American public opinion in his widely
                            read
                            > > biography Theodore Roosevelt - A Biography by Henry F. Pringle
                            and
                            > you
                            > > can read it online at the following URL.
                            > > http://books. google.com/ books?id= x0WGYBSt2hsC& output=html
                            > >
                            > > While highly (and deliberately, in my opinion) critical of TR,
                            some
                            > say
                            > > that this book did much to damage TR's reputation which was not
                            > really
                            > > restored in the public eye until the Edmund Morris 1979
                            biography.
                            > > Nevertheless, even Morris' biography of TR makes reference to it.
                            I
                            > > found it useful as a sign of the post-WW1 iconaclast attitude
                            common
                            > > among the so-called "lost generation." Your thoughts on this book?
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                            > Click here to find the perfect picture with our powerful photo
                            search features.
                            >
                            http://thirdpartyof fers.juno. com/TGL2131/ fc/PnY6rbtzjionM PGA0cWOR4YQN2
                            7vRJC9LRS382ZPOPZJT vcZ0bKOC/
                            >



                          • Linda E. Milano
                            That would have just meant that there were two more primaries that would have been set aside... Linda ... From: Patrick Healy To: tr-m@yahoogroups.com Sent:
                            Message 13 of 24 , Dec 15, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              That would have just meant that there were two more primaries that would have been set aside...
                               
                              Linda
                               
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:01 PM
                              Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography of TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online

                              My book gives TR the 10,000 votes he needed to take two more primaries which would have put him over the top.  The results of removing this pawn from the historical chessboard for America are merely interesting; for the world they are transformational.

                              --- On Mon, 12/15/08, Linda E. Milano <lemilano@optonline. net> wrote:
                              From: Linda E. Milano <lemilano@optonline. net>
                              Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography of TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online
                              To: tr-m@yahoogroups. com
                              Date: Monday, December 15, 2008, 8:59 AM

                              That election was the first time that primaries were ever held - and TR won them.  However, the Republican powers-that- were set aside the primary results and nominated Tart.  They were afraid of TR...
                               
                              Best,
                              Linda Milano
                               
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 12:43 AM
                              Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography of TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online

                              He came within two primaries and 10,000 votes of defeating Taft and going on to an easy win over Wilson in 1912.   I'm writing a book that explores both the credibility and the consequence of the alternate scenario and the impact on the Great War is enormous.
                               
                              Although an admirer of TR, I am trying not to "give him any breaks" or take the "easy way out".

                              --- On Fri, 12/12/08, jmgallen@juno. com <JMGallen@Juno. com> wrote:
                              From: jmgallen@juno. com <JMGallen@Juno. com>
                              Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography of TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online
                              To: tr-m@yahoogroups. com
                              Date: Friday, December 12, 2008, 6:46 PM

                              He did live until 1919.  He probably would have been nominated in 1920 had he lived.
                              Jim Gallen

                              -- "Keith Simon" <simonamerica@ gmail.com> wrote:
                              I think that one key to understanding TR was his search for balance
                              between the conflicting social and political forces of his time as
                              well as his absolute faith in the need for an ordered domestic and
                              international community. I think the tragic example of his brother
                              Elliot's slide into UN-controlled DIS-order and IM-balance served to
                              warn him on a personal level of the of larger social and political
                              perils of abandoning public "sanity" for either the anarchists on the
                              ultra-left or the so-called "stand patters" on the reactionary right.

                              TR was an incredible student of history and also well knew the
                              dangers that both the national as well as the international community
                              faced at the beginning of the 20th Century. His work to resolve the
                              Russo-Japanese War, for example is the direct outgrowth of this
                              search for balance and order - in the International Stage. His
                              settling of the Coal Strike demonstrates this on the US National
                              Stage as well.

                              Had he lived and become president in 1912, I believe he would have
                              served to prevent Germany from the slide into War. His international
                              standing was so great that he might even have been able to mediated a
                              peace settlement after the assasination of Arch-Duke Ferdinand of
                              Serbia in Sarajevo that touched off World War 1. That's speculation
                              to be sure, but Germany's Kaisar stood in awe of Roosevelt and both
                              respected him as an international force for good (Speak Softly) as
                              well as his willingness to prevent war (The Big Stick). Would that he
                              would have been nominated in 1912 by his party. A tremendous loss to
                              the World Sanity and Order it twas.

                              as well as order --- In tr-m@yahoogroups. com, "jmgallen@.. ."
                              <JMGallen@.. .> wrote:
                              >
                              > Dr. John Gable also warned me of factual distortions in Pringle's
                              book.
                              > Jim Gallen
                              >
                              > -- "Patrick J. Healy" <patrickjhealy2001@ ...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Pringle is a liberal and a neo-liberal at that -- enough said. I am
                              > sure, had he lived in TR's time his heroes would have been Eugene
                              Debs
                              > and William Jennings Bryan
                              >
                              > --- In tr-m@yahoogroups. com, "Keith Simon" <simonamerica@ > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Henry Pringle made a excellent living trying to knock TR off his
                              > > proverbial "high horse" in American public opinion in his widely
                              read
                              > > biography Theodore Roosevelt - A Biography by Henry F. Pringle
                              and
                              > you
                              > > can read it online at the following URL.
                              > > http://books. google.com/ books?id= x0WGYBSt2hsC& output=html
                              > >
                              > > While highly (and deliberately, in my opinion) critical of TR,
                              some
                              > say
                              > > that this book did much to damage TR's reputation which was not
                              > really
                              > > restored in the public eye until the Edmund Morris 1979
                              biography.
                              > > Nevertheless, even Morris' biography of TR makes reference to it.
                              I
                              > > found it useful as a sign of the post-WW1 iconaclast attitude
                              common
                              > > among the so-called "lost generation." Your thoughts on this book?
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                              > Click here to find the perfect picture with our powerful photo
                              search features.
                              >
                              http://thirdpartyof fers.juno. com/TGL2131/ fc/PnY6rbtzjionM PGA0cWOR4YQN2
                              7vRJC9LRS382ZPOPZJT vcZ0bKOC/
                              >



                              ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ ___
                              Save $15 on Flowers and Gifts from FTD!
                              Shop now at www.ftd.com/ 17007



                            • Patrick J. Healy
                              Please do not misunderstand, as I pointed out, the history of BOTH conflicts and indeed the entire period WOULD have been very different. I was only pointing
                              Message 14 of 24 , Dec 16, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Please do not misunderstand, as I pointed out, the history of BOTH
                                conflicts and indeed the entire period WOULD have been very
                                different. I was only pointing out that the power of the United
                                States, then as now, has limits and that therefore there are limits
                                to what any American President, including TR, can realistically do.

                                You do, however, once again, highlight the difficulty one faces in
                                any speculative work. Literally, almost anything is POSSIBLE;
                                deciding what is credible is more difficult -- much less what is
                                likely to have actually happened. This is particularly true as one
                                moves further from the Point of Departure -- in this case the summer
                                of 1912.


                                --- In tr-m@yahoogroups.com, "Linda E. Milano" <lemilano@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > You're thinking military options - I'm talking diplomatic. Even in
                                1910 TR saw it coming.
                                >
                                > Also, many of the issues that set off Germany in the 1930's and
                                1940's were a direct result of the peace treaty that ended World War
                                I.
                                >
                                > And, even while he was in the White House, TR warned about Japan.
                                A more active watch might have prevented a lot of problems.
                                >
                                > Best,
                                > Linda Milano
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: Patrick Healy
                                > To: tr-m@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:22 PM
                                > Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography of
                                TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online
                                >
                                >
                                > I do not agree that TR could have prevented World War One.
                                The US Navy he would have inherited was only fourth largest and only
                                about half as strong as Germany. The Army was tiny and any
                                substantial buildup would have been hard for him to justify under
                                prewar conditions. Unquestionably he would have intervened early and
                                with greater effectiveness than Wilson did; I believe and my research
                                I think supports the view that the difference would have been
                                somewhere between decisive and spectacular. I do not think there is
                                any doubt that he would have shortened the war and reduced the loss
                                of life by a third to half!
                                >
                                > The Peace Treaty would have been more realistic and hence
                                more just. TR also believed that America and Germany would
                                eventually HAVE to become allies against Russia. Whether he would
                                have been able to prevent World War II by pre-emptive diplomacy
                                twenty years removed is more questionable -- particularly with rspect
                                to Japan. However, certainly the history of the Second World War,
                                would have been very different -- it is not even clear what the
                                alignments would have been, let alone anything else.
                                >
                                > --- On Mon, 12/15/08, Linda E. Milano <lemilano@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > From: Linda E. Milano <lemilano@...>
                                > Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical
                                Biography of TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online
                                > To: tr-m@yahoogroups.com
                                > Date: Monday, December 15, 2008, 9:14 AM
                                >
                                >
                                > TR came home from his 1910 tour through Europe saying
                                that there was going to be a war and that the US would be drawn into
                                it, preaching readiness at that time. This was especially so after
                                his visit to Kaiser Wilhelm II to review the troops.
                                >
                                > Actually, Wilhelm sent TR a series of pictures taken at
                                that event. Wilhelm had personally written comments about people in
                                the photos on the back of each, most of them highly unflattering.
                                When his staff realized what he had done, they requested that TR send
                                the photos back, to be replaced by a set of identical photos without
                                the comments. TR respectfully declined, saying that he would not
                                show the photos to anyone else or disclose the comments. The photos,
                                with comments, are still at Sagamore Hill, in a wooden box on top of
                                TR's desk in the North Room.
                                >
                                > John Gable was always of the opinion that, had he won the
                                1912 election, TR would have been able to avert World War I - which
                                in turn would have prevented World War II.
                                >
                                > At the end of the war, TR wrote a series of letters to
                                European heads of state (especially the King of England) making
                                suggestions about how the peace treaty should be set up. They can be
                                found in the eight and final book of "The Collected Letters of
                                Theodore Roosevelt." Again, if his suggestions had been followed,
                                the conditions that led to World War II would have been averted.
                                >
                                > Best,
                                > Linda Milano
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: Patrick Healy
                                > To: tr-m@yahoogroups. com
                                > Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 12:38 AM
                                > Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical
                                Biography of TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online
                                >
                                >
                                > Your comments are interesting and inspiring. I
                                am actually writing an alternative history of the election of 1912
                                and the Great War that explores these questions and I sense that your
                                views generally correspond to my own.
                                >
                                > --- On Fri, 12/12/08, Keith Simon <simonamerica@
                                gmail.com> wrote:
                                >
                                > From: Keith Simon <simonamerica@ gmail.com>
                                > Subject: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical
                                Biography of TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online
                                > To: tr-m@yahoogroups. com
                                > Date: Friday, December 12, 2008, 3:21 PM
                                >
                                >
                                > I think that one key to understanding TR was
                                his search for balance
                                > between the conflicting social and political
                                forces of his time as
                                > well as his absolute faith in the need for an
                                ordered domestic and
                                > international community. I think the tragic
                                example of his brother
                                > Elliot's slide into UN-controlled DIS-order and
                                IM-balance served to
                                > warn him on a personal level of the of larger
                                social and political
                                > perils of abandoning public "sanity" for either
                                the anarchists on the
                                > ultra-left or the so-called "stand patters" on
                                the reactionary right.
                                >
                                > TR was an incredible student of history and
                                also well knew the
                                > dangers that both the national as well as the
                                international community
                                > faced at the beginning of the 20th Century. His
                                work to resolve the
                                > Russo-Japanese War, for example is the direct
                                outgrowth of this
                                > search for balance and order - in the
                                International Stage. His
                                > settling of the Coal Strike demonstrates this
                                on the US National
                                > Stage as well.
                                >
                                > Had he lived and become president in 1912, I
                                believe he would have
                                > served to prevent Germany from the slide into
                                War. His international
                                > standing was so great that he might even have
                                been able to mediated a
                                > peace settlement after the assasination of Arch-
                                Duke Ferdinand of
                                > Serbia in Sarajevo that touched off World War
                                1. That's speculation
                                > to be sure, but Germany's Kaisar stood in awe
                                of Roosevelt and both
                                > respected him as an international force for
                                good (Speak Softly) as
                                > well as his willingness to prevent war (The Big
                                Stick). Would that he
                                > would have been nominated in 1912 by his party.
                                A tremendous loss to
                                > the World Sanity and Order it twas.
                                >
                                > as well as order --- In tr-m@yahoogroups.
                                com, "jmgallen@ ."
                                > <JMGallen@ .> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Dr. John Gable also warned me of factual
                                distortions in Pringle's
                                > book.
                                > > Jim Gallen
                                > >
                                > > -- "Patrick J. Healy"
                                <patrickjhealy2001@ ...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Pringle is a liberal and a neo-liberal at
                                that -- enough said. I am
                                > > sure, had he lived in TR's time his heroes
                                would have been Eugene
                                > Debs
                                > > and William Jennings Bryan
                                > >
                                > > --- In tr-m@yahoogroups. com, "Keith Simon"
                                <simonamerica@ > wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Henry Pringle made a excellent living
                                trying to knock TR off his
                                > > > proverbial "high horse" in American public
                                opinion in his widely
                                > read
                                > > > biography Theodore Roosevelt - A Biography
                                by Henry F. Pringle
                                > and
                                > > you
                                > > > can read it online at the following URL.
                                > > > http://books. google.com/ books?id=
                                x0WGYBSt2hsC& output=html
                                > > >
                                > > > While highly (and deliberately, in my
                                opinion) critical of TR,
                                > some
                                > > say
                                > > > that this book did much to damage TR's
                                reputation which was not
                                > > really
                                > > > restored in the public eye until the Edmund
                                Morris 1979
                                > biography.
                                > > > Nevertheless, even Morris' biography of TR
                                makes reference to it.
                                > I
                                > > > found it useful as a sign of the post-WW1
                                iconaclast attitude
                                > common
                                > > > among the so-called "lost generation." Your
                                thoughts on this book?
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > ____________ _________ _________ _________
                                _________ _________ _
                                > > Click here to find the perfect picture with
                                our powerful photo
                                > search features.
                                > >
                                > http://thirdpartyof fers.juno. com/TGL2131/
                                fc/PnY6rbtzjionM PGA0cWOR4YQN2
                                > 7vRJC9LRS382ZPOPZJT vcZ0bKOC/
                                > >
                                >
                              • Patrick J. Healy
                                That was what I thought at first.....but when I delved into the details of the convention and examined some of the key procedural votes, I found out that in
                                Message 15 of 24 , Dec 16, 2008
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  That was what I thought at first.....but when I delved into the
                                  details of the convention and examined some of the key procedural
                                  votes, I found out that in fact that was a very near thing. It was
                                  this discovery, that made me decide that this scenario really
                                  deserved to be more than a short story.

                                  --- In tr-m@yahoogroups.com, "Linda E. Milano" <lemilano@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > That would have just meant that there were two more primaries that
                                  would have been set aside...
                                  >
                                  > Linda
                                  >
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: Patrick Healy
                                  > To: tr-m@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:01 PM
                                  > Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography of
                                  TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > My book gives TR the 10,000 votes he needed to take two
                                  more primaries which would have put him over the top. The results of
                                  removing this pawn from the historical chessboard for America are
                                  merely interesting; for the world they are transformational.
                                  >
                                  > --- On Mon, 12/15/08, Linda E. Milano <lemilano@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > From: Linda E. Milano <lemilano@...>
                                  > Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical
                                  Biography of TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online
                                  > To: tr-m@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Date: Monday, December 15, 2008, 8:59 AM
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > That election was the first time that primaries were ever
                                  held - and TR won them. However, the Republican powers-that- were
                                  set aside the primary results and nominated Tart. They were afraid
                                  of TR...
                                  >
                                  > Best,
                                  > Linda Milano
                                  >
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: Patrick Healy
                                  > To: tr-m@yahoogroups. com
                                  > Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 12:43 AM
                                  > Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical
                                  Biography of TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > He came within two primaries and 10,000 votes of
                                  defeating Taft and going on to an easy win over Wilson in 1912. I'm
                                  writing a book that explores both the credibility and the consequence
                                  of the alternate scenario and the impact on the Great War is enormous.
                                  >
                                  > Although an admirer of TR, I am trying not
                                  to "give him any breaks" or take the "easy way out".
                                  >
                                  > --- On Fri, 12/12/08, jmgallen@juno. com
                                  <JMGallen@Juno. com> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > From: jmgallen@juno. com <JMGallen@Juno. com>
                                  > Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly
                                  Critical Biography of TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online
                                  > To: tr-m@yahoogroups. com
                                  > Date: Friday, December 12, 2008, 6:46 PM
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > He did live until 1919. He probably would have
                                  been nominated in 1920 had he lived.
                                  > Jim Gallen
                                  >
                                  > -- "Keith Simon" <simonamerica@ gmail.com>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I think that one key to understanding TR was
                                  his search for balance
                                  > between the conflicting social and political
                                  forces of his time as
                                  > well as his absolute faith in the need for an
                                  ordered domestic and
                                  > international community. I think the tragic
                                  example of his brother
                                  > Elliot's slide into UN-controlled DIS-order and
                                  IM-balance served to
                                  > warn him on a personal level of the of larger
                                  social and political
                                  > perils of abandoning public "sanity" for either
                                  the anarchists on the
                                  > ultra-left or the so-called "stand patters" on
                                  the reactionary right.
                                  >
                                  > TR was an incredible student of history and
                                  also well knew the
                                  > dangers that both the national as well as the
                                  international community
                                  > faced at the beginning of the 20th Century. His
                                  work to resolve the
                                  > Russo-Japanese War, for example is the direct
                                  outgrowth of this
                                  > search for balance and order - in the
                                  International Stage. His
                                  > settling of the Coal Strike demonstrates this
                                  on the US National
                                  > Stage as well.
                                  >
                                  > Had he lived and become president in 1912, I
                                  believe he would have
                                  > served to prevent Germany from the slide into
                                  War. His international
                                  > standing was so great that he might even have
                                  been able to mediated a
                                  > peace settlement after the assasination of Arch-
                                  Duke Ferdinand of
                                  > Serbia in Sarajevo that touched off World War
                                  1. That's speculation
                                  > to be sure, but Germany's Kaisar stood in awe
                                  of Roosevelt and both
                                  > respected him as an international force for
                                  good (Speak Softly) as
                                  > well as his willingness to prevent war (The Big
                                  Stick). Would that he
                                  > would have been nominated in 1912 by his party.
                                  A tremendous loss to
                                  > the World Sanity and Order it twas.
                                  >
                                  > as well as order --- In tr-m@yahoogroups.
                                  com, "jmgallen@ ."
                                  > <JMGallen@ .> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Dr. John Gable also warned me of factual
                                  distortions in Pringle's
                                  > book.
                                  > > Jim Gallen
                                  > >
                                  > > -- "Patrick J. Healy"
                                  <patrickjhealy2001@ ...> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Pringle is a liberal and a neo-liberal at
                                  that -- enough said. I am
                                  > > sure, had he lived in TR's time his heroes
                                  would have been Eugene
                                  > Debs
                                  > > and William Jennings Bryan
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In tr-m@yahoogroups. com, "Keith Simon"
                                  <simonamerica@ > wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Henry Pringle made a excellent living
                                  trying to knock TR off his
                                  > > > proverbial "high horse" in American public
                                  opinion in his widely
                                  > read
                                  > > > biography Theodore Roosevelt - A Biography
                                  by Henry F. Pringle
                                  > and
                                  > > you
                                  > > > can read it online at the following URL.
                                  > > > http://books. google.com/ books?id=
                                  x0WGYBSt2hsC& output=html
                                  > > >
                                  > > > While highly (and deliberately, in my
                                  opinion) critical of TR,
                                  > some
                                  > > say
                                  > > > that this book did much to damage TR's
                                  reputation which was not
                                  > > really
                                  > > > restored in the public eye until the Edmund
                                  Morris 1979
                                  > biography.
                                  > > > Nevertheless, even Morris' biography of TR
                                  makes reference to it.
                                  > I
                                  > > > found it useful as a sign of the post-WW1
                                  iconaclast attitude
                                  > common
                                  > > > among the so-called "lost generation." Your
                                  thoughts on this book?
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > ____________ _________ _________ _________
                                  _________ _________ _
                                  > > Click here to find the perfect picture with
                                  our powerful photo
                                  > search features.
                                  > >
                                  > http://thirdpartyof fers.juno. com/TGL2131/
                                  fc/PnY6rbtzjionM PGA0cWOR4YQN2
                                  > 7vRJC9LRS382ZPOPZJT vcZ0bKOC/
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ____________ _________ _________ _________
                                  _________ _________ ___
                                  > Save $15 on Flowers and Gifts from FTD!
                                  > Shop now at www.ftd.com/ 17007
                                  >
                                • Linda E. Milano
                                  You missed the point - the Republican hierarchy would not have given him the nomination, no matter what. A better scenario would have been for him to win on
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Dec 16, 2008
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    You missed the point - the Republican hierarchy would not have given him the nomination, no matter what.  A better scenario would have been for him to win on the Progressive / Bull Moose ticket.  A lot of the voters who voted for Taft did so only because they wouldn't cross party lines.  IF they had voted for TR, he would have won - and established a viable third party.  Now THAT would be an interesting concept to explore.
                                     
                                    Best,
                                    Linda Milano
                                     
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 7:40 AM
                                    Subject: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography of TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online

                                    That was what I thought at first.....but when I delved into the
                                    details of the convention and examined some of the key procedural
                                    votes, I found out that in fact that was a very near thing. It was
                                    this discovery, that made me decide that this scenario really
                                    deserved to be more than a short story.

                                    --- In tr-m@yahoogroups. com, "Linda E. Milano" <lemilano@.. .> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > That would have just meant that there were two more primaries that
                                    would have been set aside...
                                    >
                                    > Linda
                                    >
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: Patrick Healy
                                    > To: tr-m@yahoogroups. com
                                    > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:01 PM
                                    > Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical Biography of
                                    TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > My book gives TR the 10,000 votes he needed to take two
                                    more primaries which would have put him over the top. The results of
                                    removing this pawn from the historical chessboard for America are
                                    merely interesting; for the world they are transformational.
                                    >
                                    > --- On Mon, 12/15/08, Linda E. Milano <lemilano@.. .> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > From: Linda E. Milano <lemilano@.. .>
                                    > Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical
                                    Biography of TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online
                                    > To: tr-m@yahoogroups. com
                                    > Date: Monday, December 15, 2008, 8:59 AM
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > That election was the first time that primaries were ever
                                    held - and TR won them. However, the Republican powers-that- were
                                    set aside the primary results and nominated Tart. They were afraid
                                    of TR...
                                    >
                                    > Best,
                                    > Linda Milano
                                    >
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: Patrick Healy
                                    > To: tr-m@yahoogroups. com
                                    > Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 12:43 AM
                                    > Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly Critical
                                    Biography of TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > He came within two primaries and 10,000 votes of
                                    defeating Taft and going on to an easy win over Wilson in 1912. I'm
                                    writing a book that explores both the credibility and the consequence
                                    of the alternate scenario and the impact on the Great War is enormous.
                                    >
                                    > Although an admirer of TR, I am trying not
                                    to "give him any breaks" or take the "easy way out".
                                    >
                                    > --- On Fri, 12/12/08, jmgallen@juno. com
                                    <JMGallen@Juno. com> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > From: jmgallen@juno. com <JMGallen@Juno. com>
                                    > Subject: Re: [tr-m] Re: First Major Highly
                                    Critical Biography of TR by Henry Pr ingle - Online
                                    > To: tr-m@yahoogroups. com
                                    > Date: Friday, December 12, 2008, 6:46 PM
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > He did live until 1919. He probably would have
                                    been nominated in 1920 had he lived.
                                    > Jim Gallen
                                    >
                                    > -- "Keith Simon" <simonamerica@ gmail.com>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I think that one key to understanding TR was
                                    his search for balance
                                    > between the conflicting social and political
                                    forces of his time as
                                    > well as his absolute faith in the need for an
                                    ordered domestic and
                                    > international community. I think the tragic
                                    example of his brother
                                    > Elliot's slide into UN-controlled DIS-order and
                                    IM-balance served to
                                    > warn him on a personal level of the of larger
                                    social and political
                                    > perils of abandoning public "sanity" for either
                                    the anarchists on the
                                    > ultra-left or the so-called "stand patters" on
                                    the reactionary right.
                                    >
                                    > TR was an incredible student of history and
                                    also well knew the
                                    > dangers that both the national as well as the
                                    international community
                                    > faced at the beginning of the 20th Century. His
                                    work to resolve the
                                    > Russo-Japanese War, for example is the direct
                                    outgrowth of this
                                    > search for balance and order - in the
                                    International Stage. His
                                    > settling of the Coal Strike demonstrates this
                                    on the US National
                                    > Stage as well.
                                    >
                                    > Had he lived and become president in 1912, I
                                    believe he would have
                                    > served to prevent Germany from the slide into
                                    War. His international
                                    > standing was so great that he might even have
                                    been able to mediated a
                                    > peace settlement after the assasination of Arch-
                                    Duke Ferdinand of
                                    > Serbia in Sarajevo that touched off World War
                                    1. That's speculation
                                    > to be sure, but Germany's Kaisar stood in awe
                                    of Roosevelt and both
                                    > respected him as an international force for
                                    good (Speak Softly) as
                                    > well as his willingness to prevent war (The Big
                                    Stick). Would that he
                                    > would have been nominated in 1912 by his party.
                                    A tremendous loss to
                                    > the World Sanity and Order it twas.
                                    >
                                    > as well as order --- In tr-m@yahoogroups.
                                    com, "jmgallen@ ."
                                    > <JMGallen@ .> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Dr. John Gable also warned me of factual
                                    distortions in Pringle's
                                    > book.
                                    > > Jim Gallen
                                    > >
                                    > > -- "Patrick J. Healy"
                                    <patrickjhealy2001@ ...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Pringle is a liberal and a neo-liberal at
                                    that -- enough said. I am
                                    > > sure, had he lived in TR's time his heroes
                                    would have been Eugene
                                    > Debs
                                    > > and William Jennings Bryan
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In tr-m@yahoogroups. com, "Keith Simon"
                                    <simonamerica@ > wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Henry Pringle made a excellent living
                                    trying to knock TR off his
                                    > > > proverbial "high horse" in American public
                                    opinion in his widely
                                    > read
                                    > > > biography Theodore Roosevelt - A Biography
                                    by Henry F. Pringle
                                    > and
                                    > > you
                                    > > > can read it online at the following URL.
                                    > > > http://books. google.com/ books?id=
                                    x0WGYBSt2hsC& output=html
                                    > > >
                                    > > > While highly (and deliberately, in my
                                    opinion) critical of TR,
                                    > some
                                    > > say
                                    > > > that this book did much to damage TR's
                                    reputation which was not
                                    > > really
                                    > > > restored in the public eye until the Edmund
                                    Morris 1979
                                    > biography.
                                    > > > Nevertheless, even Morris' biography of TR
                                    makes reference to it.
                                    > I
                                    > > > found it useful as a sign of the post-WW1
                                    iconaclast attitude
                                    > common
                                    > > > among the so-called "lost generation." Your
                                    thoughts on this book?
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
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