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Re: [tr-m] Discussion Topic - What Were TR's Greatest Mistakes - Personal & Political?

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  • Harry Lembeck
    He regretted the decision, made on a sincere belief the precedent set by President Washington was one to follow and also on impulse immediately after the 1904
    Message 1 of 21 , Feb 12, 2007
      He regretted the decision, made on a sincere belief the precedent set
      by President Washington was one to follow and also on impulse
      immediately after the 1904 election results came in.

      Harry Lembeck
      On Feb 12, 2007, at 9:22 AM, Jarmon, Joshua wrote:

      > I think TR's most glaring mistake was vowing not to seek a third term
      > in 1912. I have always felt that he could have gotten the necessary
      > support to get the complete backing of the party. Does anyone have any
      > other insight into what led TR to make the initial decision regarding
      > his third term?
      >
      > ________________________________
      >
      > From: tr-m@yahoogroups.com on behalf of simonatl
      > Sent: Sun 2/11/2007 10:17 AM
      > To: tr-m@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [tr-m] Discussion Topic - What Were TR's Greatest Mistakes -
      > Personal & Political?
      >
      > No one's perfect as they say. On that CSPAN 4 hour show on TR in 1999,
      > Dr. Gable was asked the same question. Ideas, anyone?
      >
      > <winmail.dat>
    • Jarmon, Joshua
      I guess the debate should be whether it was a mistake for TR to run for a second elected term. Had he not made the statements in question, I wonder if his
      Message 2 of 21 , Feb 12, 2007
        I guess the debate should be whether it was a mistake for TR to run for a second elected term. Had he not made the statements in question, I wonder if his critics would have labeled him as "power hungry".

        ________________________________

        From: tr-m@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Harry Lembeck
        Sent: Mon 2/12/2007 10:14 AM
        To: tr-m@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [tr-m] Discussion Topic - What Were TR's Greatest Mistakes - Personal & Political?


        He regretted the decision, made on a sincere belief the precedent set by President Washington was one to follow and also on impulse immediately after the 1904 election results came in.

        Harry Lembeck
        On Feb 12, 2007, at 9:22 AM, Jarmon, Joshua wrote:


        I think TR's most glaring mistake was vowing not to seek a third term in 1912. I have always felt that he could have gotten the necessary support to get the complete backing of the party. Does anyone have any other insight into what led TR to make the initial decision regarding his third term?



        ________________________________



        From: tr-m@yahoogroups.com on behalf of simonatl


        Sent: Sun 2/11/2007 10:17 AM


        To: tr-m@yahoogroups.com


        Subject: [tr-m] Discussion Topic - What Were TR's Greatest Mistakes - Personal & Political?



        No one's perfect as they say. On that CSPAN 4 hour show on TR in 1999,


        Dr. Gable was asked the same question. Ideas, anyone?



        <winmail.dat>
      • DRVOTE@MINDSPRING.COM
        I had not heard about TR trying to do away with the Marine Corps. Could someone provide me with the full details or a link to a source to find out more about
        Message 3 of 21 , Feb 12, 2007
          I had not heard about TR trying to do away with the Marine Corps.
          Could someone provide me with the full details or a link to a source
          to find out more about this?
          Why would he do this? He held the military in such high regard.
          I can't imagine why he would want to do this except maybe to
          increase the size of the Navy, which was his first love.

          All the best,
          John Olsen





          -----Original Message-----
          From: tr-m@yahoogroups.com [mailto:tr-m@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
          Henry Hendrix
          Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 5:34 PM
          To: tr-m@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [tr-m] Discussion Topic - What Were TR's Greatest Mistakes
          - Personal & Political?


          The courts martial of the african american regiment for the 'incident' in
          Brownsville is, without a doubt, TR's most agregious mistake.
          After that, he would probably say his appointment of Oliver Holmes Jr to the
          Supreme Court was a mistake, history proved him wrong on that one.
          From a military standpoint, his attempt to do away with the Marine Corps
          still reverberates to this day, which is unfortunate given the
          sophistication that he displayed utilizing the Corps.
          r
          Jerry









          >From: "simonatl" <simonatl@...>
          >Reply-To: tr-m@yahoogroups.com
          >To: tr-m@yahoogroups.com
          >Subject: [tr-m] Discussion Topic - What Were TR's Greatest Mistakes -
          >Personal & Political?
          >Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 16:17:18 -0000
          >
          >No one's perfect as they say. On that CSPAN 4 hour show on TR in 1999,
          >Dr. Gable was asked the same question. Ideas, anyone?
          >
          >
          >
          >To Post a message, send it to: tr-m@...
          >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: tr-m-unsubscribe@...
          >Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >

          _________________________________________________________________
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          Academy Awards®
          http://movies.msn.com/movies/oscars2007/?icid=ncoscartagline1



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        • Henry Hendrix
          TR made the strategic mistake of conceptualizing the Marine Corps predominantly as a ground force rather than naval infantry/security, and hence felt it should
          Message 4 of 21 , Feb 13, 2007
            TR made the strategic mistake of conceptualizing the Marine Corps
            predominantly as a ground force rather than naval infantry/security, and
            hence felt it should be aligned under the Army. In 1908 he signed an
            executive order removing Marines from all capital ships as a preliminary
            step towards transfering them to the Army. This decision was reversed by
            Taft in 1909. While the incident is seldom remembered or discussed in
            historical circles, the Marines have never forgotten and TR remains a
            controversial figure to them. Also, from a constitutional law perspective,
            this case is remembered for the firestorm it set off between the executive
            branch and the legislature over the extent of the executive to issue
            'executive orders' without congressional sanction. An ok secondary source
            on this is LCOL kenneth J. Clifford's (USMCR) 'Progress and Purpose: A
            Developmental History of the United States Marine Corps 1900-1970.' pp. 2-5.
            r
            Jerry









            >From: <DRVOTE@...>
            >Reply-To: tr-m@yahoogroups.com
            >To: <tr-m@yahoogroups.com>
            >Subject: RE: [tr-m] Discussion Topic - What Were TR's Greatest Mistakes -
            >Personal & Political?
            >Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 16:19:12 -0900
            >
            >I had not heard about TR trying to do away with the Marine Corps.
            >Could someone provide me with the full details or a link to a source
            >to find out more about this?
            >Why would he do this? He held the military in such high regard.
            >I can't imagine why he would want to do this except maybe to
            >increase the size of the Navy, which was his first love.
            >
            > All the best,
            > John Olsen
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >-----Original Message-----
            >From: tr-m@yahoogroups.com [mailto:tr-m@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
            >Henry Hendrix
            >Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 5:34 PM
            >To: tr-m@yahoogroups.com
            >Subject: RE: [tr-m] Discussion Topic - What Were TR's Greatest Mistakes
            >- Personal & Political?
            >
            >
            >The courts martial of the african american regiment for the 'incident' in
            >Brownsville is, without a doubt, TR's most agregious mistake.
            >After that, he would probably say his appointment of Oliver Holmes Jr to
            >the
            >Supreme Court was a mistake, history proved him wrong on that one.
            >From a military standpoint, his attempt to do away with the Marine Corps
            >still reverberates to this day, which is unfortunate given the
            >sophistication that he displayed utilizing the Corps.
            >r
            >Jerry
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > >From: "simonatl" <simonatl@...>
            > >Reply-To: tr-m@yahoogroups.com
            > >To: tr-m@yahoogroups.com
            > >Subject: [tr-m] Discussion Topic - What Were TR's Greatest Mistakes -
            > >Personal & Political?
            > >Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 16:17:18 -0000
            > >
            > >No one's perfect as they say. On that CSPAN 4 hour show on TR in 1999,
            > >Dr. Gable was asked the same question. Ideas, anyone?
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >To Post a message, send it to: tr-m@...
            > >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: tr-m-unsubscribe@...
            > >Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >_________________________________________________________________
            >From predictions to trailers, check out the MSN Entertainment Guide to the
            >Academy Awards�
            >http://movies.msn.com/movies/oscars2007/?icid=ncoscartagline1
            >
            >
            >
            >To Post a message, send it to: tr-m@...
            >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: tr-m-unsubscribe@...
            >Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >To Post a message, send it to: tr-m@...
            >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: tr-m-unsubscribe@...
            >Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >

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          • Harry Lembeck
            Today, I understand there are no Marine detachments aboard navy ships. Nor are Marines any longer in charge of security for navy installations. In Vietnam,
            Message 5 of 21 , Feb 13, 2007
              Today, I understand there are no Marine detachments aboard navy ships.
              Nor are Marines any longer in charge of security for navy
              installations. In Vietnam, the Marines were cast in the role of the
              army - sustained ground combat - and had to rethink everything from the
              size of their weapons (e.g., until maybe 4 years after they arrived in
              Vietnam, Marines had no 175 mm. guns like the army had from day one) to
              their supply chain (no longer could a Marine depend on what he carried
              to the beach, because he no longer was going to go back aboard ship
              when the objective was taken). In short, the Marine Corps became in
              many respects just like the army.

              Of course, there are reasons to maintain the Marine Corps anyway. But
              TR was awfully farsighted, because evidently he could see the
              transformation where Marines became more like soldiers and the Marine
              Corps became more like the army.

              Harry Lembeck
              On Feb 13, 2007, at 10:04 AM, Henry Hendrix wrote:

              > TR made the strategic mistake of conceptualizing the Marine Corps
              > predominantly as a ground force rather than naval infantry/security,
              > and
              > hence felt it should be aligned under the Army. In 1908 he signed an
              > executive order removing Marines from all capital ships as a
              > preliminary
              > step towards transfering them to the Army. This decision was reversed
              > by
              > Taft in 1909. While the incident is seldom remembered or discussed in
              > historical circles, the Marines have never forgotten and TR remains a
              > controversial figure to them. Also, from a constitutional law
              > perspective,
              > this case is remembered for the firestorm it set off between the
              > executive
              > branch and the legislature over the extent of the executive to issue
              > 'executive orders' without congressional sanction. An ok secondary
              > source
              > on this is LCOL kenneth J. Clifford's (USMCR) 'Progress and Purpose: A
              > Developmental History of the United States Marine Corps 1900-1970.'
              > pp. 2-5.
              > r
              > Jerry
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >> From: <DRVOTE@...>
              >> Reply-To: tr-m@yahoogroups.com
              >> To: <tr-m@yahoogroups.com>
              >> Subject: RE: [tr-m] Discussion Topic - What Were TR's Greatest
              >> Mistakes -
              >> Personal & Political?
              >> Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 16:19:12 -0900
              >>
              >> I had not heard about TR trying to do away with the Marine Corps.
              >> Could someone provide me with the full details or a link to a source
              >> to find out more about this?
              >> Why would he do this? He held the military in such high regard.
              >> I can't imagine why he would want to do this except maybe to
              >> increase the size of the Navy, which was his first love.
              >>
              >> All the best,
              >> John Olsen
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> -----Original Message-----
              >> From: tr-m@yahoogroups.com [mailto:tr-m@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
              >> Henry Hendrix
              >> Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 5:34 PM
              >> To: tr-m@yahoogroups.com
              >> Subject: RE: [tr-m] Discussion Topic - What Were TR's Greatest
              >> Mistakes
              >> - Personal & Political?
              >>
              >>
              >> The courts martial of the african american regiment for the
              >> 'incident' in
              >> Brownsville is, without a doubt, TR's most agregious mistake.
              >> After that, he would probably say his appointment of Oliver Holmes Jr
              >> to
              >> the
              >> Supreme Court was a mistake, history proved him wrong on that one.
              >> From a military standpoint, his attempt to do away with the Marine
              >> Corps
              >> still reverberates to this day, which is unfortunate given the
              >> sophistication that he displayed utilizing the Corps.
              >> r
              >> Jerry
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>> From: "simonatl" <simonatl@...>
              >>> Reply-To: tr-m@yahoogroups.com
              >>> To: tr-m@yahoogroups.com
              >>> Subject: [tr-m] Discussion Topic - What Were TR's Greatest Mistakes -
              >>> Personal & Political?
              >>> Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 16:17:18 -0000
              >>>
              >>> No one's perfect as they say. On that CSPAN 4 hour show on TR in
              >>> 1999,
              >>> Dr. Gable was asked the same question. Ideas, anyone?
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>> To Post a message, send it to: tr-m@...
              >>> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: tr-m-unsubscribe@...
              >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>
              >> _________________________________________________________________
              >> From predictions to trailers, check out the MSN Entertainment Guide
              >> to the
              >> Academy Awards®
              >> http://movies.msn.com/movies/oscars2007/?icid=ncoscartagline1
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> To Post a message, send it to: tr-m@...
              >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: tr-m-unsubscribe@...
              >> Yahoo! Groups Links
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> To Post a message, send it to: tr-m@...
              >> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: tr-m-unsubscribe@...
              >> Yahoo! Groups Links
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >
              > _________________________________________________________________
              > Turn searches into helpful donations. Make your search count.
              > http://click4thecause.live.com/search/charity/default.aspx?
              > source=hmemtagline_donation&FORM=WLMTAG
              >
              >
              >
              > To Post a message, send it to: tr-m@...
              > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: tr-m-unsubscribe@...
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              >
              >
              >
              >
            • John Willson
              I believe TR s greatest personal mistake was his almost pathological avoidance of the subject of his first wife, Alice Lee, following her tragic death in 1884,
              Message 6 of 21 , Feb 15, 2007
                I believe TR's greatest personal mistake was his almost pathological avoidance of the subject of his first wife, Alice Lee, following her tragic death in 1884, and the lasting psychological effects this may have had on their daughter, Alice.
                 
                I believe his greatest political mistake was his descent into a kind of Croly-type radical (for the times), regulationist, federalism leading to his split with the Republican Party, his nomination by the Progressive Party for President in 1912, and the eventual election of the Democrat, Woodrow Wilson.
                 

                simonatl <simonatl@...> wrote:
                No one's perfect as they say. On that CSPAN 4 hour show on TR in 1999,
                Dr. Gable was asked the same question. Ideas, anyone?


              • Harry Lembeck
                Funny, yesterday I was talking to Greg Wynn, and he says TR s worst mistake was Taft, which is another way of saying what John just said about the 1912 split,
                Message 7 of 21 , Feb 15, 2007
                  Funny, yesterday I was talking to Greg Wynn, and he says TR's worst
                  mistake was Taft, which is another way of saying what John just said
                  about the 1912 split, which led to Wlison.
                  On Feb 15, 2007, at 12:50 PM, John Willson wrote:

                  >> I believe TR's greatest personal mistake was his almost pathological
                  >> avoidance of the subject of his first wife, Alice Lee, following her
                  >> tragic death in 1884, and the lasting psychological effects this may
                  >> have had on their daughter, Alice. 
                  > I believe his greatest political mistake was his descent into a kind
                  > of Croly-type radical (for the times), regulationist, federalism
                  > leading to his split with the Republican Party, his nomination by the
                  > Progressive Party for President in 1912, and the eventual election of
                  > the Democrat, Woodrow Wilson.
                  >  
                  >
                  > simonatl <simonatl@...> wrote:
                  >> No one's perfect as they say. On that CSPAN 4 hour show on TR in 1999,
                  >> Dr. Gable was asked the same question. Ideas, anyone?
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  Harry
                • Jeremy Johnston
                  I am going to put a different spin on this...I think TR s biggest mistake was going back to the Republican Party in 1916 and campaigning for Hughes! (My
                  Message 8 of 21 , Feb 15, 2007
                    I am going to put a different spin on this...I think TR's biggest mistake was going back to the Republican Party in 1916 and campaigning for Hughes! (My sincerest apologies to my Republican friends) By going back to the Republican party, TR destroyed the Progressive Party, a.k.a. the Bull Moose Party. Wilson simply countered TR's actions by passing through a number of progressive reforms to win over the progressives who were disheartened by TR's bolt back to the Republicans. That, in addition to the "He Kept Us Out of the War" slogan, paved the way for a second Wilson term. What if TR stayed with the Progressive Party? Would we continue to have this vibrant political party with us today? Imagine having a significant third choice in our American political arena. This would have been a tremendous political legacy left to the American public by TR.

                    Jeremy Johnston
                    Assistant Professor of History
                    Northwest College
                    231 West 6th Street
                    Powell, WY 82435
                    (307)754-6008
                    jeremy.johnston@...
                    Northwest College Homepage: www.northwestcollege.edu
                    History Homepage: www.northwestcollege.edu/area/history

                    ________________________________

                    From: tr-m@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Harry Lembeck
                    Sent: Thu 2/15/2007 11:41 AM
                    To: tr-m@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [tr-m] Discussion Topic - What Were TR's Greatest Mistakes - Personal & Political?


                    Funny, yesterday I was talking to Greg Wynn, and he says TR's worst mistake was Taft, which is another way of saying what John just said about the 1912 split, which led to Wlison.
                    On Feb 15, 2007, at 12:50 PM, John Willson wrote:


                    I believe TR's greatest personal mistake was his almost pathological avoidance of the subject of his first wife, Alice Lee, following her tragic death in 1884, and the lasting psychological effects this may have had on their daughter, Alice.


                    I believe his greatest political mistake was his descent into a kind of Croly-type radical (for the times), regulationist, federalism leading to his split with the Republican Party, his nomination by the Progressive Party for President in 1912, and the eventual election of the Democrat, Woodrow Wilson.






                    simonatl <simonatl@...> wrote:


                    No one's perfect as they say. On that CSPAN 4 hour show on TR in 1999,


                    Dr. Gable was asked the same question. Ideas, anyone?






                    Harry
                  • Harry Lembeck
                    And to this day, Wilson is called a progressive, even though he may have been anything but. Harry
                    Message 9 of 21 , Feb 15, 2007
                      And to this day, Wilson is called a progressive, even though he may
                      have been anything but.

                      Harry
                      On Feb 15, 2007, at 2:56 PM, Jeremy Johnston wrote:

                      > I am going to put a different spin on this...I think TR's biggest
                      > mistake was going back to the Republican Party in 1916 and campaigning
                      > for Hughes! (My sincerest apologies to my Republican friends) By going
                      > back to the Republican party, TR destroyed the Progressive Party,
                      > a.k.a. the Bull Moose Party. Wilson simply countered TR's actions by
                      > passing through a number of progressive reforms to win over the
                      > progressives who were disheartened by TR's bolt back to the
                      > Republicans. That, in addition to the "He Kept Us Out of the War"
                      > slogan, paved the way for a second Wilson term. What if TR stayed with
                      > the Progressive Party? Would we continue to have this vibrant
                      > political party with us today? Imagine having a significant third
                      > choice in our American political arena. This would have been a
                      > tremendous political legacy left to the American public by TR.
                      >
                      > Jeremy Johnston
                      > Assistant Professor of History
                      > Northwest College
                      > 231 West 6th Street
                      > Powell, WY 82435
                      > (307)754-6008
                      > jeremy.johnston@...
                      > Northwest College Homepage: www.northwestcollege.edu
                      > History Homepage: www.northwestcollege.edu/area/history
                      >
                      > ________________________________
                      >
                      > From: tr-m@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Harry Lembeck
                      > Sent: Thu 2/15/2007 11:41 AM
                      > To: tr-m@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: Re: [tr-m] Discussion Topic - What Were TR's Greatest
                      > Mistakes - Personal & Political?
                      >
                      > Funny, yesterday I was talking to Greg Wynn, and he says TR's worst
                      > mistake was Taft, which is another way of saying what John just said
                      > about the 1912 split, which led to Wlison.
                      > On Feb 15, 2007, at 12:50 PM, John Willson wrote:
                      >
                      > I believe TR's greatest personal mistake was his almost pathological
                      > avoidance of the subject of his first wife, Alice Lee, following her
                      > tragic death in 1884, and the lasting psychological effects this may
                      > have had on their daughter, Alice.
                      >
                      > I believe his greatest political mistake was his descent into a kind
                      > of Croly-type radical (for the times), regulationist, federalism
                      > leading to his split with the Republican Party, his nomination by the
                      > Progressive Party for President in 1912, and the eventual election of
                      > the Democrat, Woodrow Wilson.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > simonatl <simonatl@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > No one's perfect as they say. On that CSPAN 4 hour show on TR in 1999,
                      >
                      > Dr. Gable was asked the same question. Ideas, anyone?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Harry
                      > <winmail.dat>
                    • Linda Milano
                      OK - as for not mentioning Alice Lee - he brought his second wife, Edith, to a home he had planned with his first wife. Their everyday serving pieces at meals
                      Message 10 of 21 , Feb 15, 2007
                        OK - as for not mentioning Alice Lee - he brought his second wife, Edith, to a home he had planned with his first wife.  Their everyday serving pieces at meals were actually wedding gifts from his first marriage.  Edith's sitting room was actually the room Alice had planned as hers.  Edith was raising Alice's child as her own.  To a certain extent, this reticence was more out of respect for Edith than an avoidance on his part.
                         
                        You must remember, that by the time she got married, his daughter had all of her parents' correspondence and all of her father's journals from the day he met her mother to when her mother died.  Also, at the end of her life she opened her photo albums to a biographer - she had several pictures of her parents together, which she had claimed for years that she had never seen.
                         
                        Best,
                        Linda Milano
                         
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 12:50 PM
                        Subject: Re: [tr-m] Discussion Topic - What Were TR's Greatest Mistakes - Personal & Political?

                        I believe TR's greatest personal mistake was his almost pathological avoidance of the subject of his first wife, Alice Lee, following her tragic death in 1884, and the lasting psychological effects this may have had on their daughter, Alice.
                         
                        I believe his greatest political mistake was his descent into a kind of Croly-type radical (for the times), regulationist, federalism leading to his split with the Republican Party, his nomination by the Progressive Party for President in 1912, and the eventual election of the Democrat, Woodrow Wilson.
                         

                        simonatl <simonatl@yahoo. com> wrote:
                        No one's perfect as they say. On that CSPAN 4 hour show on TR in 1999,
                        Dr. Gable was asked the same question. Ideas, anyone?


                      • John Willson
                        The Progressive Party was clobbered in every State but California in the 1914 mid-term elections. TR wisely realized that the party was over (no pun intended)
                        Message 11 of 21 , Feb 19, 2007
                          The Progressive Party was clobbered in every State but California in the 1914 mid-term elections. TR wisely realized that the party was over (no pun intended) and refused to accept the Progressive Party nomination for President in 1916. To suggest that TR should have done otherwise and that he could have revived the failing Party is naive.
                          Those who hold this view should certainly read chapters 9 & 10 of John Gable's scholarly work, "The Bull Moose Years."

                          Jeremy Johnston <jeremy.johnston@...> wrote:
                          I am going to put a different spin on this...I think TR's biggest mistake was going back to the Republican Party in 1916 and campaigning for Hughes! (My sincerest apologies to my Republican friends) By going back to the Republican party, TR destroyed the Progressive Party, a.k.a. the Bull Moose Party. Wilson simply countered TR's actions by passing through a number of progressive reforms to win over the progressives who were disheartened by TR's bolt back to the Republicans. That, in addition to the "He Kept Us Out of the War" slogan, paved the way for a second Wilson term. What if TR stayed with the Progressive Party? Would we continue to have this vibrant political party with us today? Imagine having a significant third choice in our American political arena. This would have been a tremendous political legacy left to the American public by TR.

                          Jeremy Johnston
                          Assistant Professor of History
                          Northwest College
                          231 West 6th Street
                          Powell, WY 82435
                          (307)754-6008
                          jeremy.johnston@ northwestcollege .edu
                          Northwest College Homepage: www.northwestcolleg e.edu
                          History Homepage: www.northwestcolleg e.edu/area/ history

                          ____________ _________ _________ __

                          From: tr-m@yahoogroups. com on behalf of Harry Lembeck
                          Sent: Thu 2/15/2007 11:41 AM
                          To: tr-m@yahoogroups. com
                          Subject: Re: [tr-m] Discussion Topic - What Were TR's Greatest Mistakes - Personal & Political?

                          Funny, yesterday I was talking to Greg Wynn, and he says TR's worst mistake was Taft, which is another way of saying what John just said about the 1912 split, which led to Wlison.
                          On Feb 15, 2007, at 12:50 PM, John Willson wrote:

                          I believe TR's greatest personal mistake was his almost pathological avoidance of the subject of his first wife, Alice Lee, following her tragic death in 1884, and the lasting psychological effects this may have had on their daughter, Alice.

                          I believe his greatest political mistake was his descent into a kind of Croly-type radical (for the times), regulationist, federalism leading to his split with the Republican Party, his nomination by the Progressive Party for President in 1912, and the eventual election of the Democrat, Woodrow Wilson.



                          simonatl <simonatl@yahoo. com> wrote:

                          No one's perfect as they say. On that CSPAN 4 hour show on TR in 1999,

                          Dr. Gable was asked the same question. Ideas, anyone?



                          Harry

                        • Jeremy Johnston
                          When one engages in the art of speculative history, naiveté can be forgiven. Discussing what may have happened in the past only if? is fun but one must
                          Message 12 of 21 , Feb 20, 2007
                            When one engages in the art of speculative history, naiveté can be forgiven. Discussing "what may have happened in the past only if?" is fun but one must keep in mind their theories can never be proven.



                            As for the 1914 elections, we must keep in mind that this year was a disaster for the Democrats as well. In his book Woodrow Wilson and the Progressive Era, Arthur Link notes "the Democrats made such a poor showing in the state and Congressional elections on November 3 that their defeat in 1916 seemed almost certain." (page 78) The real winners in the 1914 elections were the Old Guard of the Republican Party and if I were TR I certainly would have bolted back to the Republicans at this point. Anyone in their right mind would have left the Progressive Party at this time. I have to give him credit for waiting until 1916 to officially disband the Progressive Party!



                            Despite the great loss in 1914, the progressive movement played an important role in swinging California to Wilson in 1916. I quote George Mowry from his book Theodore Roosevelt and the Progressive Movement: "Traditional interpretation has it that Wilson won the West because of his stand upon the European war. It might also be said that Hughes lost the West because he failed to win the support of the erstwhile Progressives...Had Hughes carried California he would have won the election. And there is little doubt that in California Progressive resentment at Hughes helped to spell disaster for the Republican Party." (page 362) Wilson, who was a crafty politician, passed through a number of social issues supported by Progressives in the year 1916, helping him win over those progressives alienated by TR's switch back to the Republican Party. Ever wonder why Wilson, who cared very little about environmental issues, signed the bill creating the National Park Service in 1916? I argue that he signed the bill to win over Progressives for the 1916 elections. At the very least, I think we could say the progressive movement, if not the Progressive Party, still influenced the national political scene.



                            Now, what if Hughes won in 1916? What role would TR have played in the Hughes Administration? How would he have handled the Great War with the Republicans in power? Even if TR did abandon the Progressive Party, just by maintaining some semblance of a political connection with the Progressives could have changed the outcome of the 1916 election.



                            In regard to TR as President in 1920, there is a wonderful article by Matthew J. Glover entitled "What Might Have Been: Theodore Roosevelt's Platform for 1920." It is located in the book Theodore Roosevelt: Many Sided American, a collection of papers presented at the 1990 conference "Theodore Roosevelt and the birth of Modern America." Glover makes a valid argument that TR would have had a hard time winning over the conservative element of the Republican Party, especially on social issues, during an imagined 1920 election.









                            Jeremy Johnston
                            Assistant Professor of History
                            Northwest College
                            231 West 6th Street
                            Powell, WY 82435
                            (307)754-6008
                            jeremy.johnston@...
                            Northwest College Homepage: www.northwestcollege.edu
                            History Homepage: www.northwestcollege.edu/area/history

                            ________________________________

                            From: tr-m@yahoogroups.com on behalf of John Willson
                            Sent: Mon 2/19/2007 8:50 PM
                            To: tr-m@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: RE: [tr-m] Discussion Topic - What Were TR's Greatest Mistakes - Personal & Political?



                            The Progressive Party was clobbered in every State but California in the 1914 mid-term elections. TR wisely realized that the party was over (no pun intended) and refused to accept the Progressive Party nomination for President in 1916. To suggest that TR should have done otherwise and that he could have revived the failing Party is naive.
                            Those who hold this view should certainly read chapters 9 & 10 of John Gable's scholarly work, "The Bull Moose Years."

                            Jeremy Johnston <jeremy.johnston@...> wrote:

                            I am going to put a different spin on this...I think TR's biggest mistake was going back to the Republican Party in 1916 and campaigning for Hughes! (My sincerest apologies to my Republican friends) By going back to the Republican party, TR destroyed the Progressive Party, a.k.a. the Bull Moose Party. Wilson simply countered TR's actions by passing through a number of progressive reforms to win over the progressives who were disheartened by TR's bolt back to the Republicans. That, in addition to the "He Kept Us Out of the War" slogan, paved the way for a second Wilson term. What if TR stayed with the Progressive Party? Would we continue to have this vibrant political party with us today? Imagine having a significant third choice in our American political arena. This would have been a tremendous political legacy left to the American public by TR.

                            Jeremy Johnston
                            Assistant Professor of History
                            Northwest College
                            231 West 6th Street
                            Powell, WY 82435
                            (307)754-6008
                            jeremy.johnston@... <mailto:jeremy.johnston%40northwestcollege.edu>
                            Northwest College Homepage: www.northwestcollege.edu
                            History Homepage: www.northwestcollege.edu/area/history

                            ________________________________

                            From: tr-m@yahoogroups.com <mailto:tr-m%40yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Harry Lembeck
                            Sent: Thu 2/15/2007 11:41 AM
                            To: tr-m@yahoogroups.com <mailto:tr-m%40yahoogroups.com>
                            Subject: Re: [tr-m] Discussion Topic - What Were TR's Greatest Mistakes - Personal & Political?

                            Funny, yesterday I was talking to Greg Wynn, and he says TR's worst mistake was Taft, which is another way of saying what John just said about the 1912 split, which led to Wlison.
                            On Feb 15, 2007, at 12:50 PM, John Willson wrote:

                            I believe TR's greatest personal mistake was his almost pathological avoidance of the subject of his first wife, Alice Lee, following her tragic death in 1884, and the lasting psychological effects this may have had on their daughter, Alice.

                            I believe his greatest political mistake was his descent into a kind of Croly-type radical (for the times), regulationist, federalism leading to his split with the Republican Party, his nomination by the Progressive Party for President in 1912, and the eventual election of the Democrat, Woodrow Wilson.



                            simonatl <simonatl@... <mailto:simonatl%40yahoo.com> > wrote:

                            No one's perfect as they say. On that CSPAN 4 hour show on TR in 1999,

                            Dr. Gable was asked the same question. Ideas, anyone?



                            Harry
                          • Harry Lembeck
                            I d have to think about Professor Link s comments. It s hard to believe the 1914 mid-term election was a disaster for Democrats. We should keep in mind that
                            Message 13 of 21 , Feb 21, 2007
                              I'd have to think about Professor Link's comments. It's hard to
                              believe the 1914 mid-term election was a disaster for Democrats. We
                              should keep in mind that between 1860 and 1932, only two Democrats were
                              elected President - Cleveland and Wilson. That's 72 years of disaster,
                              so why should 1914 stand out? And President Wilson was reelected only
                              two years later. So how bad could 1914 have been for the Democrats?
                              They won in 1916, and when they lost in 1920, it was by then a
                              different world and whatever took place 6 years earlier had nothing to
                              do with it.

                              I might also suggest that by 1920, progressivism was a spent force, and
                              may well have been on its way out as early as 1916. The Progressive
                              Party itself was gone. Harding was hardly progressive. And the
                              old-guard Republicans controlled Congress. Even the term "progressive"
                              itself was gone. They now called themselves "liberals" - and still do.

                              My "what if" question is whom TR would have picked for VP in 1920? If
                              TR had won, but then died because he was, in fact, a sick man, the VP
                              would have been President, just as Calvin Coolidge was when President
                              Harding died in office.

                              Harry
                              On Feb 20, 2007, at 8:54 PM, Jeremy Johnston wrote:

                              > When one engages in the art of speculative history, naiveté can be
                              > forgiven. Discussing "what may have happened in the past only if?" is
                              > fun but one must keep in mind their theories can never be proven.
                              >
                              > As for the 1914 elections, we must keep in mind that this year was a
                              > disaster for the Democrats as well. In his book Woodrow Wilson and the
                              > Progressive Era, Arthur Link notes "the Democrats made such a poor
                              > showing in the state and Congressional elections on November 3 that
                              > their defeat in 1916 seemed almost certain." (page 78) The real
                              > winners in the 1914 elections were the Old Guard of the Republican
                              > Party and if I were TR I certainly would have bolted back to the
                              > Republicans at this point. Anyone in their right mind would have left
                              > the Progressive Party at this time. I have to give him credit for
                              > waiting until 1916 to officially disband the Progressive Party!
                              >
                              > Despite the great loss in 1914, the progressive movement played an
                              > important role in swinging California to Wilson in 1916. I quote
                              > George Mowry from his book Theodore Roosevelt and the Progressive
                              > Movement: "Traditional interpretation has it that Wilson won the West
                              > because of his stand upon the European war. It might also be said that
                              > Hughes lost the West because he failed to win the support of the
                              > erstwhile Progressives...Had Hughes carried California he would have
                              > won the election. And there is little doubt that in California
                              > Progressive resentment at Hughes helped to spell disaster for the
                              > Republican Party." (page 362) Wilson, who was a crafty politician,
                              > passed through a number of social issues supported by Progressives in
                              > the year 1916, helping him win over those progressives alienated by
                              > TR's switch back to the Republican Party. Ever wonder why Wilson, who
                              > cared very little about environmental issues, signed the bill creating
                              > the National Park Service in 1916? I argue that he signed the bill to
                              > win over Progressives for the 1916 elections. At the very least, I
                              > think we could say the progressive movement, if not the Progressive
                              > Party, still influenced the national political scene.
                              >
                              > Now, what if Hughes won in 1916? What role would TR have played in
                              > the Hughes Administration? How would he have handled the Great War
                              > with the Republicans in power? Even if TR did abandon the Progressive
                              > Party, just by maintaining some semblance of a political connection
                              > with the Progressives could have changed the outcome of the 1916
                              > election.
                              >
                              > In regard to TR as President in 1920, there is a wonderful article by
                              > Matthew J. Glover entitled "What Might Have Been: Theodore Roosevelt's
                              > Platform for 1920." It is located in the book Theodore Roosevelt: Many
                              > Sided American, a collection of papers presented at the 1990
                              > conference "Theodore Roosevelt and the birth of Modern America."
                              > Glover makes a valid argument that TR would have had a hard time
                              > winning over the conservative element of the Republican Party,
                              > especially on social issues, during an imagined 1920 election.
                              >
                              > Jeremy Johnston
                              > Assistant Professor of History
                              > Northwest College
                              > 231 West 6th Street
                              > Powell, WY 82435
                              > (307)754-6008
                              > jeremy.johnston@...
                              > Northwest College Homepage: www.northwestcollege.edu
                              > History Homepage: www.northwestcollege.edu/area/history
                              >
                              > ________________________________
                              >
                              > From: tr-m@yahoogroups.com on behalf of John Willson
                              > Sent: Mon 2/19/2007 8:50 PM
                              > To: tr-m@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: RE: [tr-m] Discussion Topic - What Were TR's Greatest
                              > Mistakes - Personal & Political?
                              >
                              > The Progressive Party was clobbered in every State but California in
                              > the 1914 mid-term elections. TR wisely realized that the party was
                              > over (no pun intended) and refused to accept the Progressive Party
                              > nomination for President in 1916. To suggest that TR should have done
                              > otherwise and that he could have revived the failing Party is naive.
                              > Those who hold this view should certainly read chapters 9 & 10 of
                              > John Gable's scholarly work, "The Bull Moose Years."
                              >
                              > Jeremy Johnston <jeremy.johnston@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I am going to put a different spin on this...I think TR's biggest
                              > mistake was going back to the Republican Party in 1916 and campaigning
                              > for Hughes! (My sincerest apologies to my Republican friends) By going
                              > back to the Republican party, TR destroyed the Progressive Party,
                              > a.k.a. the Bull Moose Party. Wilson simply countered TR's actions by
                              > passing through a number of progressive reforms to win over the
                              > progressives who were disheartened by TR's bolt back to the
                              > Republicans. That, in addition to the "He Kept Us Out of the War"
                              > slogan, paved the way for a second Wilson term. What if TR stayed with
                              > the Progressive Party? Would we continue to have this vibrant
                              > political party with us today? Imagine having a significant third
                              > choice in our American political arena. This would have been a
                              > tremendous political legacy left to the American public by TR.
                              >
                              > Jeremy Johnston
                              > Assistant Professor of History
                              > Northwest College
                              > 231 West 6th Street
                              > Powell, WY 82435
                              > (307)754-6008
                              > jeremy.johnston@...
                              > <mailto:jeremy.johnston%40northwestcollege.edu>
                              > Northwest College Homepage: www.northwestcollege.edu
                              > History Homepage: www.northwestcollege.edu/area/history
                              >
                              > ________________________________
                              >
                              > From: tr-m@yahoogroups.com <mailto:tr-m%40yahoogroups.com> on behalf
                              > of Harry Lembeck
                              > Sent: Thu 2/15/2007 11:41 AM
                              > To: tr-m@yahoogroups.com <mailto:tr-m%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > Subject: Re: [tr-m] Discussion Topic - What Were TR's Greatest
                              > Mistakes - Personal & Political?
                              >
                              > Funny, yesterday I was talking to Greg Wynn, and he says TR's worst
                              > mistake was Taft, which is another way of saying what John just said
                              > about the 1912 split, which led to Wlison.
                              > On Feb 15, 2007, at 12:50 PM, John Willson wrote:
                              >
                              > I believe TR's greatest personal mistake was his almost pathological
                              > avoidance of the subject of his first wife, Alice Lee, following her
                              > tragic death in 1884, and the lasting psychological effects this may
                              > have had on their daughter, Alice.
                              >
                              > I believe his greatest political mistake was his descent into a kind
                              > of Croly-type radical (for the times), regulationist, federalism
                              > leading to his split with the Republican Party, his nomination by the
                              > Progressive Party for President in 1912, and the eventual election of
                              > the Democrat, Woodrow Wilson.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > simonatl <simonatl@... <mailto:simonatl%40yahoo.com> > wrote:
                              >
                              > No one's perfect as they say. On that CSPAN 4 hour show on TR in 1999,
                              >
                              > Dr. Gable was asked the same question. Ideas, anyone?
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Harry
                              >
                              >
                              > <winmail.dat>
                            • Jeremy Johnston
                              Harry, Perhaps disaster is too harsh of a term but 1914 was a serious setback for the Democratic Party, especially in the House of Representatives. The
                              Message 14 of 21 , Feb 21, 2007

                                Harry,

                                Perhaps disaster is too harsh of a term but 1914 was a serious setback for the Democratic Party, especially in the House of Representatives.  The Democrats lost 61 seats in the House, reducing their majority from 75 to 25 seats.  Although the Democrats still controlled both houses, the Republicans made significant gains in the House and won back some of the seats in the Senate that they lost in 1912.  Wilson argued the 1914 election was a victory for himself and the Democrats but he clearly worried about the loss of Democratic seats in Congress.  Link argued this loss caused Wilson to pass through a second round of progressive reforms before the 1916 elections securing much needed support to be re-elected in 1916.  Keep in mind that Wilson proclaimed an end to progressive reform in the autumn of 1914, just before the elections.  Yet by 1916, Wilson and the Democrats reinvigorated progressive reform hoping to win over progressives to ensure a victory over the Republicans in the 1916 elections.  According to Link, “by the fall of 1916, [Democrats and Wilson] enacted almost every plank in the Progressive platform of 1912.” (page 229)   Bottom line here, Wilson was a progressive when he needed the political support to stay in office.   Wilson was very adept at using Roosevelt ’s ideas to benefit his political stance as a progressive.  Unfortunately, most of the Wilson biographies gloss over Wilson ’s role as a progressive and instead focus on his handling of the Great War.

                                 

                                Hope you and yours are doing well.  I am going to jump to the conclusion that the weather in Atlanta is a little warmer than it is here in Wyoming ;)       

                                 


                                From: tr-m@yahoogroups.com [mailto:tr-m@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Harry Lembeck
                                Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 7:18 AM
                                To: tr-m@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [tr-m] Discussion Topic - What Were TR's Greatest Mistakes - Personal & Political?

                                 

                                I'd have to think about Professor Link's comments. It's hard to believe the 1914 mid-term election was a disaster for Democrats. We should keep in mind that between 1860 and 1932, only two Democrats were elected President - Cleveland and Wilson. That's 72 years of disaster, so why should 1914 stand out? And President Wilson was reelected only two years later. So how bad could 1914 have been for the Democrats? They won in 1916, and when they lost in 1920, it was by then a different world and whatever took place 6 years earlier had nothing to do with it.

                                 

                                I might also suggest that by 1920, progressivism was a spent force, and may well have been on its way out as early as 1916. The Progressive Party itself was gone. Harding was hardly progressive. And the old-guard Republicans controlled Congress. Even the term "progressive" itself was gone. They now called themselves "liberals" - and still do.

                                 

                                My "what if" question is whom TR would have picked for VP in 1920? If TR had won, but then died because he was, in fact, a sick man, the VP would have been President, just as Calvin Coolidge was when President Harding died in office.

                                 

                                Harry

                                On Feb 20, 2007, at 8:54 PM, Jeremy Johnston wrote:

                                 

                                When one engages in the art of speculative history, naiveté can be forgiven. Discussing "what may have happened in the past only if?" is fun but one must keep in mind their theories can never be proven.

                                 

                                As for the 1914 elections, we must keep in mind that this year was a disaster for the Democrats as well. In his book Woodrow Wilson and the Progressive Era, Arthur Link notes "the Democrats made such a poor showing in the state and Congressional elections on November 3 that their defeat in 1916 seemed almost certain." (page 78) The real winners in the 1914 elections were the Old Guard of the Republican Party and if I were TR I certainly would have bolted back to the Republicans at this point. Anyone in their right mind would have left the Progressive Party at this time. I have to give him credit for waiting until 1916 to officially disband the Progressive Party!

                                 

                                Despite the great loss in 1914, the progressive movement played an important role in swinging California to Wilson in 1916. I quote George Mowry from his book Theodore Roosevelt and the Progressive Movement: "Traditional interpretation has it that Wilson won the West because of his stand upon the European war. It might also be said that Hughes lost the West because he failed to win the support of the erstwhile Progressives...Had Hughes carried California he would have won the election. And there is little doubt that in California Progressive resentment at Hughes helped to spell disaster for the Republican Party." (page 362) Wilson, who was a crafty politician, passed through a number of social issues supported by Progressives in the year 1916, helping him win over those progressives alienated by TR's switch back to the Republican Party. Ever wonder why Wilson, who cared very little about environmental issues, signed the bill creating the National Park Service in 1916? I argue that he signed the bill to win over Progressives for the 1916 elections. At the very least, I think we could say the progressive movement, if not the Progressive Party, still influenced the national political scene.

                                 

                                Now, what if Hughes won in 1916? What role would TR have played in the Hughes Administration? How would he have handled the Great War with the Republicans in power? Even if TR did abandon the Progressive Party, just by maintaining some semblance of a political connection with the Progressives could have changed the outcome of the 1916 election.

                                 

                                In regard to TR as President in 1920, there is a wonderful article by Matthew J. Glover entitled "What Might Have Been: Theodore Roosevelt's Platform for 1920." It is located in the book Theodore Roosevelt: Many Sided American, a collection of papers presented at the 1990 conference "Theodore Roosevelt and the birth of Modern America." Glover makes a valid argument that TR would have had a hard time winning over the conservative element of the Republican Party, especially on social issues, during an imagined 1920 election.

                                 

                                Jeremy Johnston

                                 

                                Assistant Professor of History

                                 

                                Northwest College

                                 

                                231 West 6th Street

                                 

                                Powell, WY 82435

                                 

                                (307)754-6008

                                 

                                jeremy.johnston@northwestcollege.edu

                                 

                                Northwest College Homepage: www.northwestcollege.edu

                                 

                                History Homepage: www.northwestcollege.edu/area/history

                                 

                                ________________________________

                                 

                                From: tr-m@yahoogroups.com on behalf of John Willson

                                 

                                Sent: Mon 2/19/2007 8:50 PM

                                 

                                To: tr-m@yahoogroups.com

                                 

                                Subject: RE: [tr-m] Discussion Topic - What Were TR's Greatest Mistakes - Personal & Political?

                                 

                                The Progressive Party was clobbered in every State but California in the 1914 mid-term elections. TR wisely realized that the party was over (no pun intended) and refused to accept the Progressive Party nomination for President in 1916. To suggest that TR should have done otherwise and that he could have revived the failing Party is naive.

                                 

                                Those who hold this view should certainly read chapters 9 & 10 of John Gable's scholarly work, "The Bull Moose Years."

                                 

                                Jeremy Johnston <jeremy.johnston@northwestcollege.edu> wrote:

                                 

                                I am going to put a different spin on this...I think TR's biggest mistake was going back to the Republican Party in 1916 and campaigning for Hughes! (My sincerest apologies to my Republican friends) By going back to the Republican party, TR destroyed the Progressive Party, a.k.a. the Bull Moose Party. Wilson simply countered TR's actions by passing through a number of progressive reforms to win over the progressives who were disheartened by TR's bolt back to the Republicans. That, in addition to the "He Kept Us Out of the War" slogan, paved the way for a second Wilson term. What if TR stayed with the Progressive Party? Would we continue to have this vibrant political party with us today? Imagine having a significant third choice in our American political arena. This would have been a tremendous political legacy left to the American public by TR.

                                 

                                Jeremy Johnston

                                 

                                Assistant Professor of History

                                 

                                Northwest College

                                 

                                231 West 6th Street

                                 

                                Powell, WY 82435

                                 

                                (307)754-6008

                                 

                                jeremy.johnston@northwestcollege.edu <mailto:jeremy.johnston%40northwestcollege.edu>

                                 

                                Northwest College Homepage: www.northwestcollege.edu

                                 

                                History Homepage: www.northwestcollege.edu/area/history

                                 

                                ________________________________

                                 

                                From: tr-m@yahoogroups.com <mailto:tr-m%40yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Harry Lembeck

                                 

                                Sent: Thu 2/15/2007 11:41 AM

                                 

                                To: tr-m@yahoogroups.com <mailto:tr-m%40yahoogroups.com>

                                 

                                Subject: Re: [tr-m] Discussion Topic - What Were TR's Greatest Mistakes - Personal & Political?

                                 

                                Funny, yesterday I was talking to Greg Wynn, and he says TR's worst mistake was Taft, which is another way of saying what John just said about the 1912 split, which led to Wlison.

                                 

                                On Feb 15, 2007, at 12:50 PM, John Willson wrote:

                                 

                                I believe TR's greatest personal mistake was his almost pathological avoidance of the subject of his first wife, Alice Lee, following her tragic death in 1884, and the lasting psychological effects this may have had on their daughter, Alice.

                                 

                                I believe his greatest political mistake was his descent into a kind of Croly-type radical (for the times), regulationist, federalism leading to his split with the Republican Party, his nomination by the Progressive Party for President in 1912, and the eventual election of the Democrat, Woodrow Wilson.




                                simonatl <simonatl@yahoo.com <mailto:simonatl%40yahoo.com> > wrote:

                                 

                                No one's perfect as they say. On that CSPAN 4 hour show on TR in 1999,

                                 

                                Dr. Gable was asked the same question. Ideas, anyone?




                                Harry



                                <winmail.dat>

                                 

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