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TR and his father in war?

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  • mapheus2002
    Dear friends, As I read the galleys of Candice Millard s _River of Doubt_, I m disappointed to come across the old canard about how TR s service and bravery as
    Message 1 of 8 , Aug 24, 2005
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      Dear friends,

      As I read the galleys of Candice Millard's _River of Doubt_, I'm disappointed to come
      across the old canard about how TR's service and bravery as a soldier and, later, his
      intention to back the national interest with military resourcefulness—well, it all had
      everything to do with his father, who bought a place in the Union army during the Civil
      War.

      I have never seen a scintilla of evidence that supports this assertion. I think TR's love for
      his father was unconditional and without a conflict like this.

      TR simply is not susceptible to the facile theories of psychohistory. Like many geniuses—
      Shakespeare, Mozart, Einstein—he is sui generis.

      I am willing to stand corrected, however. Does anyone have a source that supports Millard,
      et al. on this point?

      Every good wish,
      Jim
    • Linda Shookster
      Jim, just for curiosity, whom does the author cite for this point of view, assuming anyone is cited? Was The Lion s Pride mentioned in her bibliography???
      Message 2 of 8 , Aug 28, 2005
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        Jim, just for curiosity, whom does the author cite for this point of view,
        assuming anyone is cited? Was "The Lion's Pride" mentioned in her
        bibliography???

        Thanks, Linda


        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Dear friends,
        >
        > As I read the galleys of Candice Millard's _River of Doubt_, I'm
        > disappointed to come across the old canard about how TR's service and
        > bravery as a soldier and, later, his intention to back the national
        > interest with military resourcefulness—well, it all had everything to
        > do with his father, who bought a place in the Union army during the
        > Civil War.
        >
        > I have never seen a scintilla of evidence that supports this assertion.
        > I think TR's love for his father was unconditional and without a
        > conflict like this.
        >
        > TR simply is not susceptible to the facile theories of psychohistory.
        > Like many geniuses— Shakespeare, Mozart, Einstein—he is sui generis.
        >
        > I am willing to stand corrected, however. Does anyone have a source that
        > supports Millard, et al. on this point?
        >
        > Every good wish,
        > Jim
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
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      • Edward J. Renehan Jr.
        As I point out in TLP, the issue is far more complex than simply whether or not TR Sr. s shirking influenced TR the younger and turned him toward war. In TR s
        Message 3 of 8 , Aug 28, 2005
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          As I point out in TLP, the issue is far more complex
          than simply whether or not TR Sr.'s shirking
          influenced TR the younger and turned him toward war.
          In TR's youth, his entire class made a cult of
          glorifying idealized sacrifices made in righteous
          fights on distant battlefields: right out of a Kipling
          novel. Like Holmes and Brooks Adams and others, TR saw
          righteous warfare as an antidote to burgeoning
          American materialism. He also saw it as a a necessary
          democraticizing exercise needed every generation or so
          to casting Ivy League gentleman in death's way side by
          side with sons of coal-miners, and make them brothers.
          See TLP pp. 24-26. This latter element must have
          inevitably tracked back at least in some small way to
          TR Sr.'s hiring an underpriviledged replacement to
          serve in his stead during the Civil War. But boiling
          it all down to this one item - if, indeed, that is
          what Ms. Millard does - doesn't work. Best, - EJR

          --- Linda Shookster <mrmoose@...> wrote:

          > Jim, just for curiosity, whom does the author cite
          > for this point of view,
          > assuming anyone is cited? Was "The Lion's Pride"
          > mentioned in her
          > bibliography???
          >
          > Thanks, Linda
          >
          >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Dear friends,
          > >
          > > As I read the galleys of Candice Millard's _River
          > of Doubt_, I'm
          > > disappointed to come across the old canard about
          > how TR's service and
          > > bravery as a soldier and, later, his intention to
          > back the national
          > > interest with military resourcefulness—well, it
          > all had everything to
          > > do with his father, who bought a place in the
          > Union army during the
          > > Civil War.
          > >
          > > I have never seen a scintilla of evidence that
          > supports this assertion.
          > > I think TR's love for his father was
          > unconditional and without a
          > > conflict like this.
          > >
          > > TR simply is not susceptible to the facile
          > theories of psychohistory.
          > > Like many geniuses— Shakespeare, Mozart,
          > Einstein—he is sui generis.
          > >
          > > I am willing to stand corrected, however. Does
          > anyone have a source that
          > > supports Millard, et al. on this point?
          > >
          > > Every good wish,
          > > Jim
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > To Post a message, send it to:  
          > tr-m@...
          > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
          > tr-m-unsubscribe@...
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          >


          ******************************************

          EDWARD J. RENEHAN JR.

          Sporadic blog:
          http://renehan.blogspot.com

          XML syndication:
          http://feeds.feedburner.com/ejr


          *******************************************

          CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: The information contained in this e-mail
          message and any attachment(s) is for the sole use of the intended
          recipient(s), which is confidential and/or legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this e-mail information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please immediately notify the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. Thank you for your cooperation.
        • Greg Wynn
          I would add additionally, however, while I agree with the Executive Director --- that characterizing TR Senior s role as shirking is grossly unfair. His
          Message 4 of 8 , Aug 28, 2005
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            I would add additionally, however, while I agree with the Executive
            Director --- that characterizing TR Senior's role as "shirking" is grossly
            unfair. His hiring was a common practice and, for that matter, accepted.
            However, what was not common was service in the cause greater than that for
            which he chose not to commit.

            TR Senior's contribution during the Civil War as part of the Allotment
            Commission was extraordinary at the time and impacts Marines, soldiers,
            sailors, and airmen serving today. Without argument, his contribution was
            GREATER in what he did than if he had served in uniform. TR Sr. was away
            from home for nearly two years serving in the field and encampments with the
            soldiers.

            He would write to Mittie: "I do not want you to miss me, but remember that
            I would never have felt satisfied with myself after this war is over if I
            had done nothing, and that I do feel now that I am only doing my duty. I
            know you will not regret having me do what is right, and I do not believe
            you will love me any the less for it."

            In my TR collection, I have a wonderful letter written on Allotment
            Commission letterhead by TR Senior during his long time in the field --- all
            in his own hand --- which pursues doggedly the allotment that should have
            been provided to a soldier's wife.

            Note my article on the subject in "The Railsplitter" (A journal for Lincoln
            collectors -- Spring, 2002) along with an article from John Gable on the
            subject of John Hay's ring.

            Best,
            Greg
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Edward J. Renehan Jr." <erenehan@...>
            To: <tr-m@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2005 6:08 PM
            Subject: Re: [tr-m] TR and his father in war?


            > As I point out in TLP, the issue is far more complex
            > than simply whether or not TR Sr.'s shirking
            > influenced TR the younger and turned him toward war.
            > In TR's youth, his entire class made a cult of
            > glorifying idealized sacrifices made in righteous
            > fights on distant battlefields: right out of a Kipling
            > novel. Like Holmes and Brooks Adams and others, TR saw
            > righteous warfare as an antidote to burgeoning
            > American materialism. He also saw it as a a necessary
            > democraticizing exercise needed every generation or so
            > to casting Ivy League gentleman in death's way side by
            > side with sons of coal-miners, and make them brothers.
            > See TLP pp. 24-26. This latter element must have
            > inevitably tracked back at least in some small way to
            > TR Sr.'s hiring an underpriviledged replacement to
            > serve in his stead during the Civil War. But boiling
            > it all down to this one item - if, indeed, that is
            > what Ms. Millard does - doesn't work. Best, - EJR
            >
            > --- Linda Shookster <mrmoose@...> wrote:
            >
            >> Jim, just for curiosity, whom does the author cite
            >> for this point of view,
            >> assuming anyone is cited? Was "The Lion's Pride"
            >> mentioned in her
            >> bibliography???
            >>
            >> Thanks, Linda
            >>
            >>
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> > Dear friends,
            >> >
            >> > As I read the galleys of Candice Millard's _River
            >> of Doubt_, I'm
            >> > disappointed to come across the old canard about
            >> how TR's service and
            >> > bravery as a soldier and, later, his intention to
            >> back the national
            >> > interest with military resourcefulness-well, it
            >> all had everything to
            >> > do with his father, who bought a place in the
            >> Union army during the
            >> > Civil War.
            >> >
            >> > I have never seen a scintilla of evidence that
            >> supports this assertion.
            >> > I think TR's love for his father was
            >> unconditional and without a
            >> > conflict like this.
            >> >
            >> > TR simply is not susceptible to the facile
            >> theories of psychohistory.
            >> > Like many geniuses- Shakespeare, Mozart,
            >> Einstein-he is sui generis.
            >> >
            >> > I am willing to stand corrected, however. Does
            >> anyone have a source that
            >> > supports Millard, et al. on this point?
            >> >
            >> > Every good wish,
            >> > Jim
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> > To Post a message, send it to:  
            >> tr-m@...
            >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
            >> tr-m-unsubscribe@...
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> > SPONSORED LINKS
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> > Theodore roosevelt
            >> >
            >> >
            >> > United states
            >> >
            >> >
            >> > United state army
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> > United state coin
            >> >
            >> >
            >> > United state flag
            >> >
            >> >
            >> > United state military
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >  Visit your group "tr-m" on the web. 
            >> >  To unsubscribe from this group, send an
            >> email
            >> > to: tr-m-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com 
            >>  Your use of
            >> > Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
            >> Service.
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >
            >
            > ******************************************
            >
            > EDWARD J. RENEHAN JR.
            >
            > Sporadic blog:
            > http://renehan.blogspot.com
            >
            > XML syndication:
            > http://feeds.feedburner.com/ejr
            >
            >
            > *******************************************
            >
            > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: The information contained in this e-mail
            > message and any attachment(s) is for the sole use of the intended
            > recipient(s), which is confidential and/or legally privileged. If you are
            > not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure,
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            > of this e-mail information is strictly prohibited. If you have received
            > this e-mail in error, please immediately notify the sender by reply e-mail
            > and destroy all copies of the original message. Thank you for your
            > cooperation.
            >
            >
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          • Edward J. Renehan Jr.
            Greg is quite correct. TR Sr. certainly didn t shirk this or any other duty in his life. But what I meant to convey is that there is some indication -
            Message 5 of 8 , Aug 28, 2005
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              Greg is quite correct. TR Sr. certainly didn't "shirk"
              this or any other duty in his life. But what I meant
              to convey is that there is some indication - chiefly
              in the way of testimony from TR's sisters and his
              daughter Alice - that TR was at best uncomfortable
              with what his father had done in hiring a replacement.


              Another aspect to all this: As TR would have been
              quite aware, TR Sr. had a personal, complicating
              factor to deal with when making his decisions during
              the Civil War. His wife Mittie starkly insisted that
              he not take up arms against her family, or the cause
              to which so many in her family were devoted - the
              Confederacy.

              All best,
              Ed

              --- Greg Wynn <gregwynn@...> wrote:

              > I would add additionally, however, while I agree
              > with the Executive
              > Director --- that characterizing TR Senior's role as
              > "shirking" is grossly
              > unfair. His hiring was a common practice and, for
              > that matter, accepted.
              > However, what was not common was service in the
              > cause greater than that for
              > which he chose not to commit.
              >
              > TR Senior's contribution during the Civil War as
              > part of the Allotment
              > Commission was extraordinary at the time and impacts
              > Marines, soldiers,
              > sailors, and airmen serving today. Without
              > argument, his contribution was
              > GREATER in what he did than if he had served in
              > uniform. TR Sr. was away
              > from home for nearly two years serving in the field
              > and encampments with the
              > soldiers.
              >
              > He would write to Mittie: "I do not want you to
              > miss me, but remember that
              > I would never have felt satisfied with myself after
              > this war is over if I
              > had done nothing, and that I do feel now that I am
              > only doing my duty. I
              > know you will not regret having me do what is right,
              > and I do not believe
              > you will love me any the less for it."
              >
              > In my TR collection, I have a wonderful letter
              > written on Allotment
              > Commission letterhead by TR Senior during his long
              > time in the field --- all
              > in his own hand --- which pursues doggedly the
              > allotment that should have
              > been provided to a soldier's wife.
              >
              > Note my article on the subject in "The Railsplitter"
              > (A journal for Lincoln
              > collectors -- Spring, 2002) along with an article
              > from John Gable on the
              > subject of John Hay's ring.
              >
              > Best,
              > Greg
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Edward J. Renehan Jr." <erenehan@...>
              > To: <tr-m@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2005 6:08 PM
              > Subject: Re: [tr-m] TR and his father in war?
              >
              >
              > > As I point out in TLP, the issue is far more
              > complex
              > > than simply whether or not TR Sr.'s shirking
              > > influenced TR the younger and turned him toward
              > war.
              > > In TR's youth, his entire class made a cult of
              > > glorifying idealized sacrifices made in righteous
              > > fights on distant battlefields: right out of a
              > Kipling
              > > novel. Like Holmes and Brooks Adams and others, TR
              > saw
              > > righteous warfare as an antidote to burgeoning
              > > American materialism. He also saw it as a a
              > necessary
              > > democraticizing exercise needed every generation
              > or so
              > > to casting Ivy League gentleman in death's way
              > side by
              > > side with sons of coal-miners, and make them
              > brothers.
              > > See TLP pp. 24-26. This latter element must have
              > > inevitably tracked back at least in some small way
              > to
              > > TR Sr.'s hiring an underpriviledged replacement to
              > > serve in his stead during the Civil War. But
              > boiling
              > > it all down to this one item - if, indeed, that is
              > > what Ms. Millard does - doesn't work. Best, - EJR
              > >
              > > --- Linda Shookster <mrmoose@...> wrote:
              > >
              > >> Jim, just for curiosity, whom does the author
              > cite
              > >> for this point of view,
              > >> assuming anyone is cited? Was "The Lion's Pride"
              > >> mentioned in her
              > >> bibliography???
              > >>
              > >> Thanks, Linda
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> > Dear friends,
              > >> >
              > >> > As I read the galleys of Candice Millard's
              > _River
              > >> of Doubt_, I'm
              > >> > disappointed to come across the old canard
              > about
              > >> how TR's service and
              > >> > bravery as a soldier and, later, his intention
              > to
              > >> back the national
              > >> > interest with military resourcefulness-well, it
              > >> all had everything to
              > >> > do with his father, who bought a place in the
              > >> Union army during the
              > >> > Civil War.
              > >> >
              > >> > I have never seen a scintilla of evidence that
              > >> supports this assertion.
              > >> > I think TR's love for his father was
              > >> unconditional and without a
              > >> > conflict like this.
              > >> >
              > >> > TR simply is not susceptible to the facile
              > >> theories of psychohistory.
              > >> > Like many geniuses- Shakespeare, Mozart,
              > >> Einstein-he is sui generis.
              > >> >
              > >> > I am willing to stand corrected, however. Does
              > >> anyone have a source that
              > >> > supports Millard, et al. on this point?
              > >> >
              > >> > Every good wish,
              > >> > Jim
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> > To Post a message, send it to:  
              > >> tr-m@...
              > >> > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
              > >> tr-m-unsubscribe@...
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> > SPONSORED LINKS
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> > Theodore roosevelt
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> > United states
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> > United state army
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> > United state coin
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> > United state flag
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> > United state military
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> >  Visit your group "tr-m" on the
              > web. 
              > >> >  To unsubscribe from this group, send an
              > >> email
              > >> > to: tr-m-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com 
              > >>  Your use of
              > >> > Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
              > >> Service.
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >
              > >
              > > ******************************************
              > >
              > > EDWARD J. RENEHAN JR.
              > >
              > > Sporadic blog:
              > > http://renehan.blogspot.com
              > >
              > > XML syndication:
              > > http://feeds.feedburner.com/ejr
              > >
              > >
              > > *******************************************
              > >
              > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: The information contained
              > in this e-mail
              > > message and any attachment(s) is for the sole use
              > of the intended
              > > recipient(s), which is confidential and/or legally
              > privileged. If you are
              > > not the intended recipient, you are hereby
              > notified that any disclosure,
              > > copying, distribution or taking of any action in
              > reliance on the contents
              > > of this e-mail information is strictly prohibited.
              > If you have received
              > > this e-mail in error, please immediately notify
              > the sender by reply e-mail
              > > and destroy all copies of the original message.
              > Thank you for your
              > > cooperation.
              > >
              > >
              > >
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              >


              ******************************************

              EDWARD J. RENEHAN JR.

              Sporadic blog:
              http://renehan.blogspot.com

              XML syndication:
              http://feeds.feedburner.com/ejr


              *******************************************

              CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: The information contained in this e-mail
              message and any attachment(s) is for the sole use of the intended
              recipient(s), which is confidential and/or legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or taking of any action in reliance on the contents of this e-mail information is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please immediately notify the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. Thank you for your cooperation.
            • Greg Wynn
              TR Senior s role in the Civil War is too-often relegated only to that of hiring a substitute ....just as TR as a diplomat is too-often relegated to gunboat
              Message 6 of 8 , Aug 28, 2005
              • 0 Attachment
                TR Senior's role in the Civil War is too-often relegated only to that of
                "hiring a substitute"....just as TR as a diplomat is too-often relegated to
                "gunboat diplomacy". One-sided and unfair.

                TR Sr's role and impact is one area of Roosevelt historiography that could
                use some more academic rigor. It should be taken on and explored. A
                magnificent contribution to our country.

                If it wasn't for him, the concept of split-pay, allotments, etc...to
                families of servicemen, likely wouldn't exist --- the thread can be extended
                to the genesis of such organizations as the Navy & Marine Corps Relief
                Society of which one of our VP's serves as Director and President!


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Edward J. Renehan Jr." <erenehan@...>
                To: <tr-m@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2005 7:20 PM
                Subject: Re: [tr-m] TR and his father in war?


                > Greg is quite correct. TR Sr. certainly didn't "shirk"
                > this or any other duty in his life. But what I meant
                > to convey is that there is some indication - chiefly
                > in the way of testimony from TR's sisters and his
                > daughter Alice - that TR was at best uncomfortable
                > with what his father had done in hiring a replacement.
                >
                >
                > Another aspect to all this: As TR would have been
                > quite aware, TR Sr. had a personal, complicating
                > factor to deal with when making his decisions during
                > the Civil War. His wife Mittie starkly insisted that
                > he not take up arms against her family, or the cause
                > to which so many in her family were devoted - the
                > Confederacy.
                >
                > All best,
                > Ed
                >
                > --- Greg Wynn <gregwynn@...> wrote:
                >
                >> I would add additionally, however, while I agree
                >> with the Executive
                >> Director --- that characterizing TR Senior's role as
                >> "shirking" is grossly
                >> unfair. His hiring was a common practice and, for
                >> that matter, accepted.
                >> However, what was not common was service in the
                >> cause greater than that for
                >> which he chose not to commit.
                >>
                >> TR Senior's contribution during the Civil War as
                >> part of the Allotment
                >> Commission was extraordinary at the time and impacts
                >> Marines, soldiers,
                >> sailors, and airmen serving today. Without
                >> argument, his contribution was
                >> GREATER in what he did than if he had served in
                >> uniform. TR Sr. was away
                >> from home for nearly two years serving in the field
                >> and encampments with the
                >> soldiers.
                >>
                >> He would write to Mittie: "I do not want you to
                >> miss me, but remember that
                >> I would never have felt satisfied with myself after
                >> this war is over if I
                >> had done nothing, and that I do feel now that I am
                >> only doing my duty. I
                >> know you will not regret having me do what is right,
                >> and I do not believe
                >> you will love me any the less for it."
                >>
                >> In my TR collection, I have a wonderful letter
                >> written on Allotment
                >> Commission letterhead by TR Senior during his long
                >> time in the field --- all
                >> in his own hand --- which pursues doggedly the
                >> allotment that should have
                >> been provided to a soldier's wife.
                >>
                >> Note my article on the subject in "The Railsplitter"
                >> (A journal for Lincoln
                >> collectors -- Spring, 2002) along with an article
                >> from John Gable on the
                >> subject of John Hay's ring.
                >>
                >> Best,
                >> Greg
                >> ----- Original Message -----
                >> From: "Edward J. Renehan Jr." <erenehan@...>
                >> To: <tr-m@yahoogroups.com>
                >> Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2005 6:08 PM
                >> Subject: Re: [tr-m] TR and his father in war?
                >>
                >>
                >> > As I point out in TLP, the issue is far more
                >> complex
                >> > than simply whether or not TR Sr.'s shirking
                >> > influenced TR the younger and turned him toward
                >> war.
                >> > In TR's youth, his entire class made a cult of
                >> > glorifying idealized sacrifices made in righteous
                >> > fights on distant battlefields: right out of a
                >> Kipling
                >> > novel. Like Holmes and Brooks Adams and others, TR
                >> saw
                >> > righteous warfare as an antidote to burgeoning
                >> > American materialism. He also saw it as a a
                >> necessary
                >> > democraticizing exercise needed every generation
                >> or so
                >> > to casting Ivy League gentleman in death's way
                >> side by
                >> > side with sons of coal-miners, and make them
                >> brothers.
                >> > See TLP pp. 24-26. This latter element must have
                >> > inevitably tracked back at least in some small way
                >> to
                >> > TR Sr.'s hiring an underpriviledged replacement to
                >> > serve in his stead during the Civil War. But
                >> boiling
                >> > it all down to this one item - if, indeed, that is
                >> > what Ms. Millard does - doesn't work. Best, - EJR
                >> >
                >> > --- Linda Shookster <mrmoose@...> wrote:
                >> >
                >> >> Jim, just for curiosity, whom does the author
                >> cite
                >> >> for this point of view,
                >> >> assuming anyone is cited? Was "The Lion's Pride"
                >> >> mentioned in her
                >> >> bibliography???
                >> >>
                >> >> Thanks, Linda
                >> >>
                >> >>
                >> >> >
                >> >> >
                >> >> >
                >> >> >
                >> >> > Dear friends,
                >> >> >
                >> >> > As I read the galleys of Candice Millard's
                >> _River
                >> >> of Doubt_, I'm
                >> >> > disappointed to come across the old canard
                >> about
                >> >> how TR's service and
                >> >> > bravery as a soldier and, later, his intention
                >> to
                >> >> back the national
                >> >> > interest with military resourcefulness-well, it
                >> >> all had everything to
                >> >> > do with his father, who bought a place in the
                >> >> Union army during the
                >> >> > Civil War.
                >> >> >
                >> >> > I have never seen a scintilla of evidence that
                >> >> supports this assertion.
                >> >> > I think TR's love for his father was
                >> >> unconditional and without a
                >> >> > conflict like this.
                >> >> >
                >> >> > TR simply is not susceptible to the facile
                >> >> theories of psychohistory.
                >> >> > Like many geniuses- Shakespeare, Mozart,
                >> >> Einstein-he is sui generis.
                >> >> >
                >> >> > I am willing to stand corrected, however. Does
                >> >> anyone have a source that
                >> >> > supports Millard, et al. on this point?
                >> >> >
                >> >> > Every good wish,
                >> >> > Jim
                >> >> >
                >> >> >
                >> >> >
                >> >> >
                >> >> >
                >> >> >
                >> >> >
                >> >> >
                >> >> >
                >> >> >
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                >> >> >
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                >> >
                >> > ******************************************
                >> >
                >> > EDWARD J. RENEHAN JR.
                >> >
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              • JAMES SUMMERVILLE
                Dear Friends, In reply to Linda Shookster s question, Ms. Millard s footnote doesn t cite any source for the first part of the paragraph below. The source of
                Message 7 of 8 , Aug 28, 2005
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                  Dear Friends,

                  In reply to Linda Shookster's question, Ms. Millard's
                  footnote doesn't cite any source for the first part of
                  the paragraph below. The source of the quote is given
                  in the text.

                  I'm reading galleys for a review, and they don't
                  include her bibliography. (Of course, it's bound to
                  include _The Lion's Pride_. Who could imagine writing
                  about TR without consulting that essential book!)

                  To be fair, TR's experience as a soldier and an
                  advocate of US military strength and preparedness is
                  not Ms. Millard's story. Here is what she writes,
                  which does not seriously undercut her fine account of
                  "Theodore Roosevelt's Darkest Hour"

                  From p. 35 of _The River of Doubt_:

                  "If the United States did go to war with Mexico [this
                  is in 1913], Roosevelt was confident that his two
                  oldest sons would be among the first to enlist.
                  Theodore Jr. and Kermit had been raised by a father
                  who was almost obsessed by war. Their grandfather,
                  whom Roosevelt had idolized, had paid another man to
                  fight for him during the Civil War, and Roosevelt had
                  never gotten over it. It was acceptable and relatively
                  common at that time for wealthy men to pay poor men
                  to take their place on the battlefield, and
                  Roosevelt's father had taken this route not out of
                  fear but out of respect for his wife, who was a
                  Southerner and whose brothers were fighting for the
                  Confederate Army. But Roosevelt could never understand
                  what he saw as the one great, gaping flaw in his
                  father's otherwise irreproachable character. He would
                  never miss a war, and neither would his sons. 'I
                  should regard it as an unspeakable disgrace if either
                  of them failed to work hard at any honest occupation
                  for his livelihood, while at the same time keeping
                  himself in such trim that he would be able to perform
                  a freeman's duty and fight as efficiently as anyone if
                  the need arose," Roosevelt had written to the British
                  historian and statesman George Otto Trevelyan after a
                  post-Africa tour of Europe with Kermit in 1911."

                  I was just troubled by the phrases "Roosevelt had
                  never gotten over it" and "Roosevelt could never
                  understand what he saw as the one great, gaping
                  flaw...." I know of no evidence that supports either
                  of these strong assertions.

                  In his post here, Ed has set us straight on the
                  complexities of TR on this matter.

                  Ms Millard's book is thoroughly research, engaging in
                  style, conveying the folly of the expedition (from the
                  standpoint of preparation) and the bravery of those
                  who endured this "darkest journey."

                  Every good wish,
                  Jim
                • Linda Shookster
                  Thanks, Jim, for the reply. (I never read galleys, so I m not familiar with their format.) I agree with Greg: the fact that the topic of Theodore Roosevelt,
                  Message 8 of 8 , Aug 29, 2005
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                    Thanks, Jim, for the reply. (I never read galleys, so I'm not familiar
                    with their format.)

                    I agree with Greg: the fact that the topic of Theodore Roosevelt, Sr's
                    role in the Civil War keeps re-surfacing as a bone of contention among
                    Tedheads and others is sufficient reason for someone to further explore
                    all the complexities of this issue. (But that I had the time!!!) TR
                    regarded his father as "The best man I ever knew." I, myself am a great
                    fan of TR, Sr, because TR would not have been the man that he was without
                    his father's wonderful, encouraging influence. NYC would not be the place
                    it is without TR, Sr's influence, either. (I personally therefore have
                    never been clear why TR, Sr is not actually referred to as TR1, as he was
                    the original Theodore Roosevelt!)

                    TR, Sr., as Renehan eloquently points out below, had to make a most
                    difficult decision, in view of his "house divided." Such a dilemma was
                    occurring all over the nation, with split allegiences to North & South
                    occurring within a number of households. Abraham Lincoln also had to
                    contend with a Southern wife whose relatives were fighting for the South.
                    TR, Sr.'s decision to contribute constructively to the war effort is most
                    commendable, in view of his circumstances.

                    But historians have to contend with the lasting 19th century stigma of
                    paying a substitute to fight in one's place. There were huge draft riots
                    in many cities, notably NY and Brooklyn (a separate city at the time)in
                    July 1863, with very negative press coverage of wealthier men who
                    bought substitutes. For example, the Brooklyn Standard ran the following
                    comments as late as September, 1863:

                    "These rampant abolitionists (referring to prominent New Yorkers who
                    provided substitutes) are all poor, white-livered creatures and would
                    faint away at the smell of a gun, though terribly truculent with tongue
                    and pen."

                    from "President Lincoln's Third Largest City," by Bud Livingston.

                    I'm sure TR's family must have felt the sting of such press. With the
                    romanticized view of war that was widely held in the 19th century, it's
                    obvious why TR and his siblings would always chafe at the memory of these
                    events. In the case of the Roosevelt family, however, such memories would
                    be unfairly cruel and unjustified, especially seen from today's vantage
                    point.

                    Best, Linda
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Dear Friends,
                    >
                    > In reply to Linda Shookster's question, Ms. Millard's
                    > footnote doesn't cite any source for the first part of
                    > the paragraph below. The source of the quote is given
                    > in the text.
                    >
                    > I'm reading galleys for a review, and they don't
                    > include her bibliography. (Of course, it's bound to
                    > include _The Lion's Pride_.  Who could imagine writing
                    > about TR without consulting that essential book!)
                    >
                    > To be fair, TR's experience as a soldier and an
                    > advocate of US military strength and preparedness is
                    > not Ms. Millard's story. Here is what she writes,
                    > which does not seriously undercut her fine account of
                    > "Theodore Roosevelt's Darkest Hour"
                    >
                    > From p. 35 of _The River of Doubt_:
                    >
                    > "If the United States did go to war with Mexico [this
                    > is in 1913], Roosevelt was confident that his two
                    > oldest sons would be among the first to enlist.
                    > Theodore Jr. and Kermit had been raised by a father
                    > who was almost obsessed by war. Their grandfather,
                    > whom Roosevelt had idolized, had paid another man to
                    > fight for him during the Civil War, and Roosevelt had
                    > never gotten over it. It was acceptable and relatively
                    > common at that time for wealthy men to pay poor  men
                    > to take their place on the battlefield, and
                    > Roosevelt's father had taken this route not out of
                    > fear but out of respect for his wife, who was a
                    > Southerner and whose brothers were fighting for the
                    > Confederate Army. But Roosevelt could never understand
                    > what he saw as the one great, gaping flaw in his
                    > father's otherwise irreproachable character. He would
                    > never miss a war, and neither would his sons. 'I
                    > should regard it as an unspeakable disgrace if either
                    > of them failed to work hard at any honest occupation
                    > for his livelihood, while at the same time keeping
                    > himself in such trim that he would be able to perform
                    > a freeman's duty and fight as efficiently as anyone if
                    > the need arose," Roosevelt had written to the British
                    > historian and statesman George Otto Trevelyan after a
                    > post-Africa tour of Europe with Kermit in 1911."
                    >
                    > I was just troubled by the phrases "Roosevelt had
                    > never gotten over it" and "Roosevelt could never
                    > understand what he saw as the one great, gaping
                    > flaw...." I know of no evidence that supports either
                    > of these strong assertions.
                    >
                    > In his post  here, Ed has set us straight on the
                    > complexities of TR on this matter.
                    >
                    > Ms Millard's book is thoroughly research, engaging in
                    > style, conveying the folly of the expedition (from the
                    > standpoint of preparation) and the bravery of those
                    > who endured this "darkest journey."
                    >
                    > Every good wish,
                    > Jim 
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