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Re: Long time in idle (stationary in drive)

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  • burns_fisher@yahoo.com
    It is probably not a big deal, but if you decide to take it out of D , put it in P , not N . In neutral, the HV battery will keep the 12V battery charged,
    Message 1 of 15 , Aug 1, 2001
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      It is probably not a big deal, but if you decide to take it out
      of "D", put it in "P", not "N". In neutral, the HV battery will keep
      the 12V battery charged, but the ICE will not charge the HV battery.
      I'm sure it would be find for quite a while, though.

      Burns
      LOWCO2 - NH

      > --- In toyota-prius@y..., a2tomita@a... wrote:
      > > <snip> ... waiting to move for up to 10 or 15 minutes.
      > > Usually I just kept it in drive with my foot on the
      > > brake but ... I finally turned my car off wondering
      > > if I am draining the battery or something.
      > > Do you think there is such a thing as too long in idle?
      >
      > Ann,
      > As far as I know, there's nothing in the Prius corresponding
      > to "idle" in a conventional car.
      > I can't think of anything that would cause a problem if you
      stayed
      > in drive with your foot on the brake indefinitely. The major power
      > draw is probably the brake lights. The accessory battery is
      charged
      > from the high-voltage system. The main battery would take days to
      be
      > affected and would be topped up anyway by briefly running the ICE.
      > If your foot gets tired, however, don't engage the parking brake
      > with the car in drive because I think the automatic creep starts up
      > even with the parking brake on and the motor will be working
      against
      > the brake. Just slide it into "P". In post 16274, there is a
      story
      > about a Prius being left ON by mistake while the driver went to
      > lunch. Again, I really can't see why you'd want to turn the car
      off.
      >
      > Graham.
    • Peter Blackford
      Park would be better than foot on brake, or stopping & restarting Pete ( idle record? how about 4+ hours at an exhibition...)
      Message 2 of 15 , Aug 1, 2001
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        "Park" would be better than foot on brake, or stopping & restarting

        Pete ("idle" record? how about 4+ hours at an exhibition...)

        a2tomita@... wrote:
        >
        > This last week we went to CA's north coast for 5 days. They were
        > doing a lot of road repaving between Jenner and Mendocino. Several
        > times we found ourselves sitting and waiting to move for up to 10 or
        > 15 minutes. Usually I just kept it in drive with my foot on the brake
        > but at one particularly long wait I finally turned my car off
        > wondering if I am draining the battery or something. Do you think
        > there is such a thing as too long in idle?
      • a2tomita@aol.com
        Now that I have learned that it is OK to leave the Prius in idle for along time, this opens up a whole new world of possibilities. I could go to the store
        Message 3 of 15 , Aug 1, 2001
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          Now that I have learned that it is OK to leave the Prius in "idle"
          for along time, this opens up a whole new world of possibilities. I
          could go to the store and leave my teenager sitting in the car
          listening to music (as she always does) and leave the car on in park.
          Then I don't have the restart issue. I could also potentially leave
          the car on in my garage when I have those multiple in and out trips
          that come close together. It should improve the gas mileage!

          Ann
        • Peter Blackford
          ... Even though the exhaust is clean, just remember to leave the garage open... and hope that you live in a safe neighborhood! Of course, mpg won t
          Message 4 of 15 , Aug 2, 2001
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            a2tomita@... wrote:
            >
            > Now that I have learned that it is OK to leave the Prius in "idle"
            > for along time, this opens up a whole new world of possibilities. I
            > could go to the store and leave my teenager sitting in the car
            > listening to music (as she always does) and leave the car on in park.
            > Then I don't have the restart issue. I could also potentially leave
            > the car on in my garage when I have those multiple in and out trips
            > that come close together. It should improve the gas mileage!

            Even though the exhaust is clean, just remember to leave the garage open... and
            hope that you live in a safe neighborhood! Of course, mpg won't necessarily
            improve since all of those "zero segments" need to be filed away somewhere....
          • Jimmy Brokaw
            ... open... and ... necessarily ... somewhere.... I don t know if it would improve mileage, but I suspect it depends on how close together your trips are. But
            Message 5 of 15 , Aug 2, 2001
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              --- In toyota-prius@y..., Peter Blackford <PriusPete@e...> wrote:
              > a2tomita@a... wrote:

              > > Then I don't have the restart issue. I could also potentially leave
              > > the car on in my garage when I have those multiple in and out trips
              > > that come close together. It should improve the gas mileage!
              >
              > Even though the exhaust is clean, just remember to leave the garage
              open... and
              > hope that you live in a safe neighborhood! Of course, mpg won't
              necessarily
              > improve since all of those "zero segments" need to be filed away
              somewhere....

              I don't know if it would improve mileage, but I suspect it depends on
              how close together your trips are.

              But those "zero segments" *don't* have to be "filed away" somewhere.
              Only the gas you used while idling does. This was a point I tried to
              make in pulse vs constant speed debate. Averaging your instantaneous
              mpg readings will not give you an average mpg. Your average mpg is
              calculated as (miles/gallons). Suppose you've travelled 500 miles at
              50mpg. You then leave the car sitting for a few hours, and use 0.2
              gallons (anyone know the actual gas consumption at intermittant idle?
              I guess it depends on the outside temperature...) Your mpg will drop
              from 50mpg to 49mpg.

              Ai, its morning. I'd best get to work before anyone else realizes my
              brain isn't working.
            • Graham Davies
              ... Or, you could turn the car off but leave the key turned to the accessory position, which is probably what you do now. ... Er, could you remind me what the
              Message 6 of 15 , Aug 2, 2001
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                --- In toyota-prius@y..., a2tomita@a... wrote:
                > Now that I have learned that it is OK to leave the Prius in "idle"
                > for along time, this opens up a whole new world of possibilities.
                > I could go to the store and leave my teenager sitting in the car
                > listening to music (as she always does) and leave the car on in
                > park.

                Or, you could turn the car off but leave the key turned to the
                accessory position, which is probably what you do now.

                > Then I don't have the restart issue.

                Er, could you remind me what "the restart issue" is? Is is that the
                car runs the ICE for a while every time you start the system up?

                > I could also potentially leave the car on in my garage
                > when I have those multiple in and out trips that come
                > close together. It should improve the gas mileage!

                You know about carbon monoxide, right? If the ICE should come on for
                any reason in an enclosed space, you could be inviting trouble. But,
                setting that to one side (AC off, why would ICE come on?), this is an
                interesting idea. Does the car actually waste fuel when started or
                is it just using fuel sooner that would have to be used eventually
                anyway? While your car sits in "P" with the hybrid system on, the
                catalytic converter and engine coolant will cool down at the same
                rate as if you'd turned the car off. When you move off again, will
                the ICE run just to get them back up to temperature? Or, will you
                have defeated the SULEV operation by allowing the catalytic converter
                to cool way down? Worse, will the car run the ICE while it's sitting
                in "P" just the keep the temperature up?

                Let's see what others think!

                Graham.
              • jgreco@bnl.gov
                I ve tried it. After going out (14 miles round trip) to pick up lunch at work one day (85degrees F), I left the car running while I ate at a picnic area.
                Message 7 of 15 , Aug 2, 2001
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                  I've tried it. After going out (14 miles round trip) to pick up
                  lunch
                  at work one day (85degrees F), I left the car "running" while
                  I ate
                  at a picnic area. When I first got out of the car the ICE had just
                  turned off. I would assume the engine/emission temperature was
                  satisfied and the battery was fully charged. The ICE started after
                  about 15 minutes then turned off in about two minutes. Is it worth
                  keeping it running??? I can't honestly say. I think if I turned
                  it
                  off when I first got there then restarted it after I ate lunch it
                  would have turned off in about the same time after I started driving.
                  The MPG read out on the LCD is not a good indication if it would save
                  fuel only because it is very sensitive when you first reset it, then,
                  as you put some miles on the tank the it shows a truer average and is
                  less sensitive to small changes.
                  That's my 2cents.

                  --- In toyota-prius@y..., "Graham Davies" <GrahamDavies@m...> wrote:
                  > --- In toyota-prius@y..., a2tomita@a... wrote:
                  > > Now that I have learned that it is OK to leave the Prius
                  in "idle"
                  > > for along time, this opens up a whole new world of possibilities.
                  > > I could go to the store and leave my teenager sitting in the car
                  > > listening to music (as she always does) and leave the car on in
                  > > park.
                  >
                  > Or, you could turn the car off but leave the key turned to the
                  > accessory position, which is probably what you do now.
                  >
                  > > Then I don't have the restart issue.
                  >
                  > Er, could you remind me what "the restart issue" is? Is is that
                  the
                  > car runs the ICE for a while every time you start the system up?
                  >
                  > > I could also potentially leave the car on in my garage
                  > > when I have those multiple in and out trips that come
                  > > close together. It should improve the gas mileage!
                  >
                  > You know about carbon monoxide, right? If the ICE should come on
                  for
                  > any reason in an enclosed space, you could be inviting trouble.
                  But,
                  > setting that to one side (AC off, why would ICE come on?), this is
                  an
                  > interesting idea. Does the car actually waste fuel when started or
                  > is it just using fuel sooner that would have to be used eventually
                  > anyway? While your car sits in "P" with the hybrid system on, the
                  > catalytic converter and engine coolant will cool down at the same
                  > rate as if you'd turned the car off. When you move off again, will
                  > the ICE run just to get them back up to temperature? Or, will you
                  > have defeated the SULEV operation by allowing the catalytic
                  converter
                  > to cool way down? Worse, will the car run the ICE while it's
                  sitting
                  > in "P" just the keep the temperature up?
                  >
                  > Let's see what others think!
                  >
                  > Graham.
                • burns_fisher@yahoo.com
                  ... park. ... I don t understand the restart issue . On conventional cars which are restarted frequently, I suppose you might tend to run the battery down.
                  Message 8 of 15 , Aug 2, 2001
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                    --- In toyota-prius@y..., a2tomita@a... wrote:
                    > Now that I have learned that it is OK to leave the Prius in "idle"
                    > for along time, this opens up a whole new world of possibilities. I
                    > could go to the store and leave my teenager sitting in the car
                    > listening to music (as she always does) and leave the car on in
                    park.
                    > Then I don't have the restart issue.

                    I don't understand "the restart issue". On conventional cars which
                    are restarted frequently, I suppose you might tend to run the battery
                    down. It is also known to wear the engine out a bit extra when you
                    start it. However with the Prius, I don't think any of this applies.
                    I'd just put it in "ACC" position to leave the audio running.


                    >I could also potentially leave
                    > the car on in my garage when I have those multiple in and out trips
                    > that come close together. It should improve the gas mileage!

                    Please don't do this. The engine can come on at any time, and you
                    don't want carbon monoxide in your house (assuming an attached
                    garage). Besides, I'm not convinced it would help the mileage. I
                    would think you might use the same amount (or more!) of gas to keep
                    the engine/converter from cooling down that you use to warm it up
                    once it has cooled.

                    I guess it would be an interesting experiment, but in real life, I
                    would never want to leave a car turned on with no one in it,
                    especially if it might start any time on its own whim. (Of course, I
                    don't like to leave the house with the dishwasher running either!)

                    Burns
                    LOWCO2 - NH
                  • sejhre@ieee.org
                    ... In P with the key on (not Acc ), the engine _will_ start from time to time. A distinct surprise/hazard if you happen to be poking about under the
                    Message 9 of 15 , Aug 2, 2001
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                      --- In toyota-prius@y..., "Graham Davies" <GrahamDavies@m...> wrote:
                      > --- In toyota-prius@y..., a2tomita@a... wrote:
                      > > Now that I have learned that it is OK to leave the Prius in
                      > > "idle" for along time, this opens up a whole new world of
                      > > possibilities. I could go to the store and leave my teenager
                      > > sitting in the car listening to music (as she always does)
                      > > and leave the car on in park.
                      >
                      > Or, you could turn the car off but leave the key turned to the
                      > accessory position, which is probably what you do now.
                      >
                      > > Then I don't have the restart issue.
                      >
                      > Er, could you remind me what "the restart issue" is? Is is
                      > that the car runs the ICE for a while every time you start
                      > the system up?
                      >
                      > > I could also potentially leave the car on in my garage
                      > > when I have those multiple in and out trips that come
                      > > close together. It should improve the gas mileage!
                      >
                      > You know about carbon monoxide, right? If the ICE should come
                      > on for any reason in an enclosed space, you could be inviting
                      > trouble. But, setting that to one side (AC off, why would ICE
                      > come on?), this is an interesting idea. Does the car actually
                      > waste fuel when started or is it just using fuel sooner that
                      > would have to be used eventually anyway? While your car sits
                      > in "P" with the hybrid system on, the catalytic converter and
                      > engine coolant will cool down at the same rate as if you'd
                      > turned the car off. When you move off again, will the ICE run
                      > just to get them back up to temperature? Or, will you
                      > have defeated the SULEV operation by allowing the catalytic
                      > converter to cool way down? Worse, will the car run the ICE
                      > while it's sitting in "P" just the keep the temperature up?
                      >
                      > Let's see what others think!
                      >
                      > Graham.

                      In 'P' with the key 'on' (not 'Acc'), the engine _will_ start
                      from time to time. A distinct surprise/hazard if you happen
                      to be poking about under the hood at the time!!

                      Why?? IMO, any/all of:
                      - 'tuning up' SOC; maintain catalytic convertor temp;
                      - maintaining coolant temp;
                      - re-calibrating some of the system paramters (according to
                      P-Man, although that's primarily at the end of a drive
                      rather than the beginning);
                      - ...

                      Net Bottom Line: you have the ICE running _w/o- the wheels
                      turning which equals reduced MPG. Period.

                      Yes, the ICE often (always?) starts, however briefly, when
                      you turn the key and start off on a journey (see "Why?" above)
                      but your doing 'productive work' -- moving on down the road
                      -- rather than just running the engine (aka "wast[ing] fuel").

                      As regards, "defeat[ing] the SULEV operation by allowing the
                      catalytic converter to cool way down": remember that the
                      "exhaust system" contains some sort of device to store
                      engine emissions ("exhaust") until the cat. conv. gets up
                      to temp, at which time they are then routed thru it/them.
                      The results might not exactly meet/exceed SULEV, but this
                      approach is designed into the vehicle intentionally with
                      the intent of doing its level best to try to meet them
                      during the problematic initial "cold" phase of ICE/exhaust
                      system use.

                      Use 'Acc' for listening to music whilst parked.
                      Use 'on' when you wanna drive somewhere.
                      Enjoy your Prius in both modes!

                      FWIW

                      jim

                      --------------------
                    • mrv@kluge.net
                      ... The emissions of a national-averaged vehicle of various types (car, truck, diesel, etc.) when idling, listed in g/hr and g/min, can be found at:
                      Message 10 of 15 , Aug 2, 2001
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                        --- In toyota-prius@y..., bfroelich@p... wrote:
                        > Was it here that somebody posted an estimate of the value of the gas
                        > wasted per year in US traffic delays? I think it was in the
                        > BILLIONS of dollars.

                        The emissions of a national-averaged vehicle of various types (car,
                        truck, diesel, etc.) when idling, listed in g/hr and g/min, can be
                        found at:
                        http://www.epa.gov/otaq/consumer/f98014.htm

                        As for the costs in US traffic delays:
                        http://sociology.about.com/library/weekly/aa052501a.htm

                        some quotes from article (and its following pages):

                        The 2001 Urban Mobility Report from the Texas Transportation
                        Institute of Texas A&M University assesses the growth of congestion
                        levels on major road systems in 68 urban areas across the U.S. having
                        populations of 100,000 or more.

                        Defining traffic as congested means that it is moving below the
                        freeflow speeds. In general, more traffic is congested in larger
                        areas where as much as 39% of all daily traffic fits this definition.

                        All this congestion is expensive. Among the costs are the toll on
                        nerves, increased wear-and-tear on vehicles, time lost from other
                        activities, and damage to the environment. The 2001 Urban Mobility
                        Report sets the total 1999 financial costs of congestion for all 68
                        urban areas at a whopping $78 billion dollars.

                        To arrive at this $78 billion total, the report's authors figured the
                        value for 4.5 million hours of delay spent in traffic congestion plus
                        the value of 6.8 billion gallons of wasted fuel. To help readers
                        grasp how much fuel waste this really is, the report explains
                        that, "This amount of fuel would fill 136 super-tankers or 680,000
                        gasoline tank trucks. If you placed 680,000 gasoline tank trucks back-
                        to-back, they would stretch from Miami to San Francisco and back"
                        (33). On average, 55 gallons of fuel per person is wasted every year
                        in this urban congestion.

                        Figuring delay and fuel, the average annual cost per person in 1999
                        for all this congestion was $620.
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