Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Prius plug-in idea.

Expand Messages
  • cor_van_de_water
    Almost every building in USA has outdoor plugs for 120V 15A so why not plug into one of those? Especially at night a chunk of the generated electricity goes
    Message 1 of 22 , May 24, 2013
    • 0 Attachment
      Almost every building in USA has outdoor plugs for 120V 15A so why not plug into one of those?
      Especially at night a chunk of the generated electricity goes unused, so it makes sense to charge at night and drive your car using that electricity.

      One of the main reasons I like EV is that they have no cold-start that pumps toxic gases into my neighborhood every morning...
      I would rather not collect *all* the pollution that my car produces and then find a way to release *all* of that pollution right in front of my home, I do not think that to be a smart idea, independent of efficiency.

      For the efficiency: Prius reaches 50 MPG because the engine can often run in the most optimal range and shut off when desired due to the presence of the hybrid drivetrain, so I doubt that a separate running and optimizing engine will do much better.
      Besides, with the engine running while driving, only part of the electric energy gets stored in the battery while a big chunk gets used for motive force right away. This avoids the efficiency losses inherent to battery charging, so another reason that charging by engine would be unlikely to be more efficient.

      One way to make an engine run efficient is to run it for all loads in one go, keeping it warm. So, it would make sense to *not* run the engine at all and instruct it to fill the plug-in battery while also transporting you, so that the second trip it does not need to come on at all, you will only start and run the engine at the next following trip, for example in the scenario where you commute to work every weekday without any recharging opportunity, then you can choose for example to let the engine recharge the plug-in battery while driving to work (on engine) in the morning and in the evening the engine is not used at all, until the same routine repeats the next morning.
      If you have recharging opportunity then you can reduce fuel consumption by not recharging the battery with the gas engine (only use braking regeneration to put energy back) and plug it in to fully charge, then drive to/from work electric and only on the opposite leg run the engine if there is no plug-in opportunity, but not refill the battery (use any electricity left in there to stop the engine and drive efficient)
      Recharging on coal power can still be more clean and efficient than running an engine to recharge. Besides, the double cycle each day may reduce the lifetime of your battery.

      Just some thoughts...
      Cor.

      --- In toyota-prius@yahoogroups.com, "docaaron1" <docaaron1@...> wrote:
      >
      > I was thinking about the Prius plug-in model and wondered if this idea has any merit. What if there was an option to not only charge the plug-in battery from the electric charging units but also an option to have the gasoline engine charge the battery after the car is parked and turned off? I mean I would not suggest this for people parked in their garages but only parked outdoors.
      >
      > Why do this you might ask? Why not just drive in the hybrid mode at 50mpg? I was thinking the miracle of the hybrid Prius is how it recharges the battery with the gasoline engine in the first place. The battery is used to keep the gasoline engine in its most efficient mode of operation. That's done while the car is moving, speeding up and slowing down. The battery kicks in or recharges to keep the gasoline engine in peak efficient mode. Now if the car is not moving the engine could be set to run at its idea rpm depending on the state of charge of the battery. Might this be higher than 50mpg?
      >
      > Also suppose the local power plant uses coal to run its electric generation along with the power loss in transmission lines and compare that to charging the Prius battery from its own gasoline powered generator running at peak efficiency from the car. Might that cause less air pollution?
      >
      > I can see myself driving to work in all electric mode and parking in the parking lot and hitting the recharge button. The gasoline engine starts up and charges the battery and then shuts off. Then when I drive home and park on the street, I just repeat the procedure so I will be all charged up to drive all electric the next day. No hassling with the plug-in recharger units that don't exist on my street anyway.
      >
      > Of course you would need some sort of notification light so people don't come up to me and say, "hay you left your car running".
      >
      > So for my idea to work it has to be more energy efficient than just driving in hybrid mode and/or cleaner to recharge from one's own gasoline engine than a coal fired generator far from the car.
      >
      > Just a thought,
      > Aaron
      > 138K miles
      > '02 Prius
      > Non-plug-in hybrid
      >
    • David Kelly
      ... Because its stealing to freely use electricity from Almost every building ... ? ... Its not generated. The plants stay hot and keep the fires burning so
      Message 2 of 22 , May 24, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        On May 24, 2013, at 3:30 AM, cor_van_de_water <cor_van_de_water@...> wrote:

        > Almost every building in USA has outdoor plugs for 120V 15A so why not plug into one of those?

        Because its stealing to freely use electricity from "Almost every building ..."?

        > Especially at night a chunk of the generated electricity goes unused, so it makes sense to charge at night and drive your car using that electricity.

        Its not generated. The plants stay hot and keep the fires burning so as to be able to generate at a moment's notice. Excess goes up the cooling towers. Its their most inefficient mode where generating a bit more costs little to nothing. Where the utility is happy to provide power for street lights in exchange for a relatively low value tax credit. If it was generated electricity then they'd have to switch load resistors in and out and street lights consume no where near enough to make up the difference.

        > For the efficiency: Prius reaches 50 MPG because the engine can often run in the most optimal range and shut off when desired due to the presence of the hybrid drivetrain, so I doubt that a separate running and optimizing engine will do much better.

        These numbers are approximate and assumes linear relationship between HP and fuel consumption: ICE requires about 5 HP to idle, so any time it is running that is the overhead charge. Ford once said the 3rd generation Mustang required 12 HP to go 50 MPH so that means the engine is making 17 HP and consuming 17 HP of fuel. Lets say we run it at 22 HP and bank the extra 5 HP in a battery for future use. Never mind its only worth 3 or 4 HP when we withdraw but when we do rather than burn 8 HP (5 for idle, 3 to move vehicle) we can turn the ICE off and use 3 HP from the battery. Perhaps those 3 cost 5 to generate but 5 is still better than 8. Thats the hybrid magic.

        This is also why it is foolish to run the ICE for no other purpose than to charge the traction battery. 5 HP of overhead, say 10 HP to the battery, its worth 8 HP later but cost 15 HP to generate.

        Things get more complicated when one figures something like 2,000 RPM and 25 HP is the most efficient HP one can produce. But you get the idea.

        --
        David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@...
        ============================================================
        Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad.
      • hkazemi
        One concept thrown around on at least one of the DIY plugin Prius forums (may have been a PriusChat thread) has been to force the engine to run at the 15kW
        Message 3 of 22 , May 24, 2013
        • 0 Attachment
          One concept thrown around on at least one of the DIY plugin Prius forums
          (may have been a PriusChat thread) has been to force the engine to run at
          the 15kW power point whenever the engine is called for (i.e. for modest
          acceleration, highway cruising, etc.). This would allow the engine to
          operate at one of it's peak efficiency points whenever it is running, and
          allow any excess to be buffered by the large battery. Basically this idea
          makes the electric side be dominant, and the ICE side be secondary with
          more limited operating points. At low speeds the ICE would remain off
          unless the battery reached a sufficiently low charge state. At high speeds,
          the ICE would remain off unless the total power demand was over 28 kW
          (boost converter limit in Gen 3), and then the power mix would be 15 kW
          ICE, and 13-28 kW electric. At even greater power demands above
          15+28kW=43kW (harder acceleration), the ICE would operate further outside
          of its optimal points.


          On May 24 2013, David Kelly wrote:

          >
          On May 24, 2013, at 3:30 AM, cor_van_de_water <cor_van_de_water@...>
          wrote:
          >
          Almost every building in USA has outdoor plugs for 120V 15A so why not
          plug into one of those?
          >
          Because its stealing to freely use electricity from "Almost every building
          ..."?
          >
          Especially at night a chunk of the generated electricity goes unused, so
          it makes sense to charge at night and drive your car using that
          electricity.
          >
          Its not generated. The plants stay hot and keep the fires burning so as to
          be able to generate at a moment's notice. Excess goes up the cooling
          towers. Its their most inefficient mode where generating a bit more costs
          little to nothing. Where the utility is happy to provide power for street
          lights in exchange for a relatively low value tax credit. If it was
          generated electricity then they'd have to switch load resistors in and out
          and street lights consume no where near enough to make up the difference.
          >
          For the efficiency: Prius reaches 50 MPG because the engine can often
          run in the most optimal range and shut off when desired due to the presence
          of the hybrid drivetrain, so I doubt that a separate running and optimizing
          engine will do much better.
          >
          These numbers are approximate and assumes linear relationship between HP
          and fuel consumption: ICE requires about 5 HP to idle, so any time it is
          running that is the overhead charge. Ford once said the 3rd generation
          Mustang required 12 HP to go 50 MPH so that means the engine is making 17
          HP and consuming 17 HP of fuel. Lets say we run it at 22 HP and bank the
          extra 5 HP in a battery for future use. Never mind its only worth 3 or 4 HP
          when we withdraw but when we do rather than burn 8 HP (5 for idle, 3 to
          move vehicle) we can turn the ICE off and use 3 HP from the battery.
          Perhaps those 3 cost 5 to generate but 5 is still better than 8. Thats the
          hybrid magic.
          >
          This is also why it is foolish to run the ICE for no other purpose than to
          charge the traction battery. 5 HP of overhead, say 10 HP to the battery,
          its worth 8 HP later but cost 15 HP to generate.
          >
          Things get more complicated when one figures something like 2,000 RPM and
          25 HP is the most efficient HP one can produce. But you get the idea.
          >
          >--
          >David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@...
          >============================================================
          >Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad.
          >
          >
          >
          >------------------------------------
          >
          To access group's website features such as Files, Photos, Links, Database
          and Polls, go to
          >http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/toyota-prius
          >, Photos, Links, Database and Polls, go to
          >http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/toyota-prius
          >Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Burt Trattner
          It would use less energy per mile with the electric recharging. But the extra cost for the car wont pay off the difference. On the other hand...if instead of
          Message 4 of 22 , May 24, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            It would use less energy per mile with the electric recharging.
            But the extra cost for the car wont pay off the difference.
            On the other hand...if instead of buying a Prius, u kept your 10 year
            gas clunker only getting 15 MPG, it would still be more economical not
            buying a new car.
            For the cost of a new car, instaed you can buy lots of gasoline for your
            clunker. But the clunker owner most likely can not get into the right
            mindset. He/she would still be reluctant to take a trip because of the
            high gas cost.

            However, there is a physiological benefit to an E car.. it sure feels
            good on a short trip knowing you didn't use any gas.

            Burt 2011


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Burt Trattner
            The utilities back-off the input energy (coal, gas, diesel etc) when the loads are light. While the generator speed is held constant (60 cycle) they first
            Message 5 of 22 , May 24, 2013
            • 0 Attachment
              The utilities back-off the input energy (coal, gas, diesel etc) when the
              loads are light. While the generator speed is held constant (60 cycle)
              they first reduce the magnetic field current to lower the output power.
              This is sensed by a speed governor that reduces the steam input,
              resulting in less oil burned in the boiler.
              The hardware in place automatically increase the input energy as loads
              increase. There is no excess energy produced that is burned off as heat
              in resistors.

              (I ran shipboard generators on an aircraft carrier.)

              Burt 2011


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Lee Hart
              ... Here in the North, you ll find free public 120vac outlets everywhere. They are placed right at the curb or next to parking places. They have been
              Message 6 of 22 , May 24, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                cor_van_de_water wrote:
                >> Almost every building in USA has outdoor plugs for 120V 15A so why
                >> not plug into one of those?

                David Kelly wrote:
                > Because its stealing to freely use electricity from "Almost every
                > building ..."?

                Here in the North, you'll find free public 120vac outlets everywhere.
                They are placed right at the curb or next to parking places. They have
                been installing outlets that way for 50+ years, for plugging in block
                heaters and battery chargers so people's cars will start in the winter.

                There has never been a charge for using them, in part because the power
                companies have been granted a monopoly on selling power. Thus it's
                illegal to charge for the power!

                However, you do find work-arounds. An apartment may charge an extra $10
                a month for an assigned parking place with an outlet. A business may
                have a parking meter at the spots with the AC outlet, so you're paying
                for the parking, not the power.

                I've been driving electric cars for decades, and have used these outlets
                on numerous occasions. When there is any question, I ask for permission.
                I have never been turned down.

                > These numbers are approximate and assumes linear relationship between
                > HP and fuel consumption:

                Actually, I think the success of hybrids depends on this relationship
                being considerably non-linear. ICE efficiency is much better at higher
                horsepower levels than at low.

                > ICE requires about 5 HP to idle, so any time
                > it is running that is the overhead charge.

                That's probably about right. Plus, the parasitic loads like heater, air
                conditioner, alternator etc. are roughly the same no matter what speed
                you are driving at.

                > Ford once said the 3rd
                > generation Mustang required 12 HP to go 50 MPH so that means the
                > engine is making 17 HP and consuming 17 HP of fuel. Lets say we run
                > it at 22 HP and bank the extra 5 HP in a battery for future use.
                > Never mind its only worth 3 or 4 HP when we withdraw but when we do
                > rather than burn 8 HP (5 for idle, 3 to move vehicle) we can turn the
                > ICE off and use 3 HP from the battery. Perhaps those 3 cost 5 to
                > generate but 5 is still better than 8. Thats the hybrid magic.

                I think that's the basic idea here. It's hard to guess at the numbers,
                though. For one, I suspect you'd only get back about half the power you
                spent charging the battery, due to the combined losses of the ICE,
                generator, inverter, battery, inverter, and motor.

                Also, the efficiency vs. horsepower curve is pretty strange for a modern
                ICE. They have gone to great lengths to design for improved efficiency
                at lower power levels, to get the EPA posted mpg figures up.

                > This is also why it is foolish to run the ICE for no other purpose
                > than to charge the traction battery. 5 HP of overhead, say 10 HP to
                > the battery, its worth 8 HP later but cost 15 HP to generate.

                It does make it hard to find cases where this is beneficial. But it can
                be done. For example, sailboats have auxiliary engines for generating
                power. They could leave the engine running a low power all the time, to
                generate the electrical power needed on a continuous basis. But it turns
                out to be more fuel efficient to leave the engine off and run on
                batteries most of the time. When the batteries get low, then start the
                engine and run it at high power to recharge the batteries quickly, and
                shut it back off again. Pulse and glide, but in a boat.

                --
                Results! Why man, I have gotten a lot of results. I know several
                thousand things that won't work. -- Thomas A. Edison
                --
                Lee A. Hart, http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
              • jose montes
                Physiological relates to bodily functions.   On the other hand a psicological benefit from a hybrid is the thought of who you are giving your money to. An
                Message 7 of 22 , May 25, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                  Physiological relates to bodily functions.
                   
                  On the other hand a psicological benefit from a hybrid is the thought of who you are
                  giving your money to. An Arabian sheik or yourself.


                  --- On Fri, 5/24/13, Burt Trattner <btrattner@...> wrote:


                  From: Burt Trattner <btrattner@...>
                  Subject: [toyota-prius] Re: Prius plug-in idea.
                  To: toyota-prius@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Friday, May 24, 2013, 1:29 PM



                   



                  It would use less energy per mile with the electric recharging.
                  But the extra cost for the car wont pay off the difference.
                  On the other hand...if instead of buying a Prius, u kept your 10 year
                  gas clunker only getting 15 MPG, it would still be more economical not
                  buying a new car.
                  For the cost of a new car, instaed you can buy lots of gasoline for your
                  clunker. But the clunker owner most likely can not get into the right
                  mindset. He/she would still be reluctant to take a trip because of the
                  high gas cost.

                  However, there is a physiological benefit to an E car.. it sure feels
                  good on a short trip knowing you didn't use any gas.

                  Burt 2011

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • David Kelly
                  ... Self-delusion is a major field of study in psychology. Only 65% of the cost of a gallon of gasoline comes from crude oil.
                  Message 8 of 22 , May 26, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment
                    On May 26, 2013, at 12:53 AM, jose montes <jmontes2k@...> wrote:

                    > Physiological relates to bodily functions.
                    >
                    > On the other hand a psicological benefit from a hybrid is the thought of who you are
                    > giving your money to. An Arabian sheik or yourself.

                    Self-delusion is a major field of study in psychology.

                    Only 65% of the cost of a gallon of gasoline comes from crude oil. http://www.eia.gov/petroleum/gasdiesel/

                    12.9% comes from the Persian Gulf: http://www.npr.org/2012/04/11/150444802/where-does-america-get-oil-you-may-be-surprised

                    So at $4.00/gallon you currently send $0.335 to the Persian Gulf. Which if they intend to get anything of value for their dollars they eventually have to spend it in the USA. If they don't spend their dollars then Bernanke can continue to print more and more while we get their oil and they get nothing in return.

                    Monarchial communists in the Middle East do a terrible job of getting value for our dollars. But since when is that any of our business?

                    --
                    David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@...
                    ============================================================
                    Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad.
                  • Jim Saklad
                    ... In my world 12.9% of $4.00 is $0.516
                    Message 9 of 22 , May 26, 2013
                    • 0 Attachment
                      > Self-delusion is a major field of study in psychology.
                      >
                      > Only 65% of the cost of a gallon of gasoline comes from crude oil. http://www.eia.gov/petroleum/gasdiesel/
                      >
                      > 12.9% comes from the Persian Gulf: http://www.npr.org/2012/04/11/150444802/where-does-america-get-oil-you-may-be-surprised
                      >
                      > So at $4.00/gallon you currently send $0.335 to the Persian Gulf.

                      In my world 12.9% of $4.00 is $0.516
                    • Matthew Cooley
                      ... http://www.eia.gov/petroleum/gasdiesel/ ... http://www.npr.org/2012/04/11/150444802/where-does-america-get-oil-you-may-be-surprised ... In my world we read
                      Message 10 of 22 , May 26, 2013
                      • 0 Attachment
                        On May 26, 2013 11:51 AM, "Jim Saklad" <jimdoc@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > > Self-delusion is a major field of study in psychology.
                        > >
                        > > Only 65% of the cost of a gallon of gasoline comes from crude oil.
                        http://www.eia.gov/petroleum/gasdiesel/
                        > >
                        > > 12.9% comes from the Persian Gulf:
                        http://www.npr.org/2012/04/11/150444802/where-does-america-get-oil-you-may-be-surprised
                        > >
                        > > So at $4.00/gallon you currently send $0.335 to the Persian Gulf.
                        >
                        > In my world 12.9% of $4.00 is $0.516
                        >

                        In my world we read the entire message and see where only 65% of the cost
                        of gasoline comes from crude.


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • jose montes
                            While you might have found that your contribution is only $0.335 per gallon, your goverment invests $Trillions in the Persian Gulf to keep oil flowing
                        Message 11 of 22 , May 31, 2013
                        • 0 Attachment
                           
                           
                          While you might have found that your contribution is only $0.335 per gallon, your goverment invests $Trillions
                          in the Persian Gulf to keep oil flowing
                           
                          If you currently pay taxes, were do you think that money comes from?   You.
                           
                          Talk about self dilusion.
                           

                          From: David Kelly <dkelly@...>
                          To: Toyota Prius <toyota-prius@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 11:35 AM
                          Subject: Re: [toyota-prius] Prius plug-in idea.

                           

                          On May 26, 2013, at 12:53 AM, jose montes <mailto:jmontes2k%40yahoo.com> wrote:

                          > Physiological relates to bodily functions.
                          >
                          > On the other hand a psicological benefit from a hybrid is the thought of who you are
                          > giving your money to. An Arabian sheik or yourself.

                          Self-delusion is a major field of study in psychology.

                          Only 65% of the cost of a gallon of gasoline comes from crude oil. http://www.eia.gov/petroleum/gasdiesel/

                          12.9% comes from the Persian Gulf: http://www.npr.org/2012/04/11/150444802/where-does-america-get-oil-you-may-be-surprised

                          So at $4.00/gallon you currently send $0.335 to the Persian Gulf. Which if they intend to get anything of value for their dollars they eventually have to spend it in the USA. If they don't spend their dollars then Bernanke can continue to print more and more while we get their oil and they get nothing in return.

                          Monarchial communists in the Middle East do a terrible job of getting value for our dollars. But since when is that any of our business?

                          --
                          David Kelly N4HHE, mailto:dkelly%40HiWAAY.net
                          ============================================================
                          Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad.




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • cor_van_de_water
                          *You* are assuming that I talk about stealing, while *I* am charging from outdoor plugs at home and at work and in other places that I am allowed to use the
                          Message 12 of 22 , May 31, 2013
                          • 0 Attachment
                            *You* are assuming that I talk about stealing, while *I* am charging from outdoor plugs at home and at work and in other places that I am allowed to use the abundantly available outdoor plugs after asking...

                            --- In toyota-prius@yahoogroups.com, David Kelly <dkelly@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > On May 24, 2013, at 3:30 AM, cor_van_de_water <cor_van_de_water@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > Almost every building in USA has outdoor plugs for 120V 15A so why not plug into one of those?
                            >
                            > Because its stealing to freely use electricity from "Almost every building ..."?
                            >
                            > > Especially at night a chunk of the generated electricity goes unused, so it makes sense to charge at night and drive your car using that electricity.
                            >
                            > Its not generated. The plants stay hot and keep the fires burning so as to be able to generate at a moment's notice. Excess goes up the cooling towers. Its their most inefficient mode where generating a bit more costs little to nothing. Where the utility is happy to provide power for street lights in exchange for a relatively low value tax credit. If it was generated electricity then they'd have to switch load resistors in and out and street lights consume no where near enough to make up the difference.
                            >
                            > > For the efficiency: Prius reaches 50 MPG because the engine can often run in the most optimal range and shut off when desired due to the presence of the hybrid drivetrain, so I doubt that a separate running and optimizing engine will do much better.
                            >
                            > These numbers are approximate and assumes linear relationship between HP and fuel consumption: ICE requires about 5 HP to idle, so any time it is running that is the overhead charge. Ford once said the 3rd generation Mustang required 12 HP to go 50 MPH so that means the engine is making 17 HP and consuming 17 HP of fuel. Lets say we run it at 22 HP and bank the extra 5 HP in a battery for future use. Never mind its only worth 3 or 4 HP when we withdraw but when we do rather than burn 8 HP (5 for idle, 3 to move vehicle) we can turn the ICE off and use 3 HP from the battery. Perhaps those 3 cost 5 to generate but 5 is still better than 8. Thats the hybrid magic.
                            >
                            > This is also why it is foolish to run the ICE for no other purpose than to charge the traction battery. 5 HP of overhead, say 10 HP to the battery, its worth 8 HP later but cost 15 HP to generate.
                            >
                            > Things get more complicated when one figures something like 2,000 RPM and 25 HP is the most efficient HP one can produce. But you get the idea.
                            >
                            > --
                            > David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@...
                            > ============================================================
                            > Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad.
                            >
                          • Horacio C
                            I had converted my 2004 then transferred to a 2008 my PHEV equipment, the first one in the North Easter USA . I had been using convenience charging after
                            Message 13 of 22 , May 31, 2013
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I had converted my 2004 then transferred to a 2008 my PHEV equipment, the
                              first one in the North Easter USA .
                              I had been using convenience charging after asking since 2006 and never had
                              a single inconvenience for it. As a matter of fact, I was rewarded for it
                              countless times; and also had to paid for it several times; I never minded


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Burt Trattner
                              Even Canadian oil is an unnecessary import. The net result is dollars keep fleeing the US. We need to exploit our abundant oil resources and sell it into
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jun 6, 2013
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Even Canadian oil is an unnecessary import. The net result is dollars
                                keep fleeing the US.
                                We need to exploit our abundant oil resources and sell it into world
                                markets.

                                That could probablybe the best and only resource we have left that could
                                reverse the flow of dollars.

                                Dubai now has one of the richest incomes/capita. In 1960 their
                                principle export was camel dung (actually pearls). Once they took over
                                the oil fields, wow, did the entire country get rich.
                                In 1960 BTW we were a principle seller of oil.

                                Then environmentalism took root and and now the US is bankrupt. Krugman
                                does not understand this.

                                Burt


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Michael Welch
                                Only deep thinkers like you and other Faux News wackos seem to understand that all of the Earth s ills are due to people trying to improve the world. Jeez,
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jun 6, 2013
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Only deep thinkers like you and other Faux News wackos seem to understand that all of the Earth's ills are due to people trying to improve the world.

                                  Jeez, dude, try to find some intact brain cells and use them for critical thinking instead of parroting the folks who manipulate you way to easily.

                                  Burt Trattner wrote at 07:42 AM 6/6/2013:

                                  >Then environmentalism took root and and now the US is bankrupt. Krugman
                                  >does not understand this.
                                • ~ Ted Timmons ~
                                  ... 2. If it weren t for environmentalism our air would be similar to what one experiences in China s large cities. Big business has demonstrated time after
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Jun 6, 2013
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    On June 6, 2013 at 12:17 PM Burt Trattner <btrattner@...> wrote:
                                    > Then environmentalism took root and and now the US is bankrupt. 1. Didn't know the US is bankrupt. Thanks for the heads up.
                                    2. If it weren't for "environmentalism" our air would be similar to what one experiences in China's large cities. Big business has demonstrated time after time that without oversight, they are perfectly willing to pollute our air and water. Ted Timmons

                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Peter Blackford
                                    Could this entire political side-discussion PLEASE be removed to the Hybrid Politics group? PLEASE? ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Jun 6, 2013
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Could this entire political side-discussion PLEASE be removed to the Hybrid
                                      Politics group? PLEASE?

                                      On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 10:42 AM, Burt Trattner <btrattner@...>wrote:

                                      > **
                                      > Even Canadian oil is an unnecessary import. The net result is dollars
                                      >
                                      > ....
                                      >


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Jim Saklad
                                      ... You *are* aware that Abu Dhabi, Persian Gulf Emirate, is building an entirely green city, right? They clearly recognize the importance of conservation and
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Jun 6, 2013
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        > Dubai now has one of the richest incomes/capita. In 1960 their principle export was camel dung (actually pearls). Once they took over the oil fields, wow, did the entire country get rich.

                                        You *are* aware that Abu Dhabi, Persian Gulf Emirate, is building an entirely green city, right?

                                        They clearly recognize the importance of conservation and using alternative resources.

                                        --
                                        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                        Jim Saklad mailto:jimdoc@...
                                      • David Kelly
                                        ... So? Its easy to print more dollars. If they will accept dollars and give us oil, we re getting a great deal! If they want to get something of worth for
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Jun 6, 2013
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          On Jun 6, 2013, at 9:42 AM, Burt Trattner <btrattner@...> wrote:

                                          > Even Canadian oil is an unnecessary import. The net result is dollars keep fleeing the US.

                                          So? Its easy to print more dollars. If they will accept dollars and give us oil, we're getting a great deal!

                                          If they want to get something of worth for their oil then they have to spend the dollars received. So they come right back.

                                          Don't forget the Prius is Made In Japan. "Just needlessly throwing money out of the country" you say?

                                          > We need to exploit our abundant oil resources and sell it into world markets.

                                          So we need to give others our resources in exchange for their currency? Then we'd have to buy other stuff from them to get anything of worth. Or are you saying we need to export goods of worth to get our expatriate dollars back? I say as long as the dollars stay gone we don't have to make good on their promise.

                                          Jars full of money buried in the back yard are not being useful. If others will give us oil and Prii for dollars and then bury the dollars then they lose and we win.

                                          Burt, you need to read the writings of Milton Friedman. I recommend starting with "Free to Choose", http://www.amazon.com/Free-Choose-A-Personal-Statement/dp/0156334607/

                                          --
                                          David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@...
                                          ============================================================
                                          Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad.
                                        • Burt Trattner
                                          ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Jun 7, 2013
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            On 6/7/2013 12:47 AM, David Kelly wrote:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > On Jun 6, 2013, at 9:42 AM, Burt Trattner <btrattner@...
                                            > <mailto:btrattner%40earthlink.net>> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > > Even Canadian oil is an unnecessary import. The net result is
                                            > dollars keep fleeing the US.
                                            >
                                            > So? Its easy to print more dollars. If they will accept dollars and
                                            > give us oil, we're getting a great deal!\
                                            >

                                            > Soon they wont accept dollars. Nobody is buying T notes except
                                            > Bernache with money he is printing. There is a scary movement to end
                                            > the US dollar as world currency reserve. World bank, UN and China and
                                            > Russia want to end it. On that day the dollar crashes to near zero
                                            >
                                            > If they want to get something of worth for their oil then they have to
                                            > spend the dollars received. So they come right back.
                                            >
                                            > Don't forget the Prius is Made In Japan. "Just needlessly throwing
                                            > money out of the country" you say? Detroit "Once the shining city" is
                                            > now in ruins." My next hybrid might be US made.
                                            >
                                            > > We need to exploit our abundant oil resources and sell it into world
                                            > markets.
                                            >
                                            > So we need to give others our resources in exchange for their
                                            > currency? Then we'd have to buy other stuff from them to get anything
                                            > of worth. Or are you saying we need to export goods of worth to get
                                            > our expatriate dollars back? I say as long as the dollars stay gone we
                                            > don't have to make good on their promise.
                                            >
                                            > Jars full of money buried in the back yard are not being useful. If
                                            > others will give us oil and Prii for dollars and then bury the dollars
                                            > then they lose and we win. With 16 trillion in debt, China will soon
                                            > ask for Yuan's instead (or gold).
                                            >
                                            > Burt, you need to read the writings of Milton Friedman. I recommend
                                            > starting with "Free to Choose",
                                            > http://www.amazon.com/Free-Choose-A-Personal-Statement/dp/0156334607/
                                            > *I love Milton!*
                                            > --
                                            > David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@... <mailto:dkelly%40HiWAAY.net>
                                            > ============================================================
                                            > Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad.
                                            >
                                            >



                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Mike Fox
                                            ISN T THERE A PRIUS POLITICS GROUP FOR THIS STUFF? I know there was one a few years ago. TAKE IT THERE PLEASE! MODERATOR?
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Jun 8, 2013
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              ISN'T THERE A PRIUS POLITICS GROUP FOR THIS STUFF?

                                              I know there was one a few years ago.

                                              TAKE IT THERE PLEASE! MODERATOR?

                                              ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                                              > > Even Canadian oil is an unnecessary import.  The
                                              > net result is dollars keep fleeing the US.
                                              >
                                              > So? Its easy to print more dollars. If they will accept
                                              > dollars and give us oil, we're getting a great deal!
                                              >
                                              > If they want to get something of worth for their oil then
                                              > they have to spend the dollars received. So they come right
                                              > back.
                                              >
                                              > Don't forget the Prius is Made In Japan. "Just needlessly
                                              > throwing money out of the country" you say?
                                              >
                                              > > We need to exploit our abundant oil resources and sell
                                              > it into world markets.
                                              >
                                              > So we need to give others our resources in exchange for
                                              > their currency? Then we'd have to buy other stuff from them
                                              > to get anything of worth. Or are you saying we need to
                                              > export goods of worth to get our expatriate dollars back? I
                                              > say as long as the dollars stay gone we don't have to make
                                              > good on their promise.
                                              >
                                              > Jars full of money buried in the back yard are not being
                                              > useful. If others will give us oil and Prii for dollars and
                                              > then bury the dollars then they lose and we win.
                                              >
                                              > Burt, you need to read the writings of Milton Friedman. I
                                              > recommend starting with "Free to Choose", http://www.amazon.com/Free-Choose-A-Personal-Statement/dp/0156334607/
                                              >
                                              > --
                                              > David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@...
                                              > ============================================================
                                              > Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > ------------------------------------
                                              >
                                              > To access group's website features such as Files, Photos,
                                              > Links, Database and Polls, go to
                                              > http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/toyota-prius
                                              > , Photos, Links, Database and Polls, go to
                                              > http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/toyota-prius
                                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >     toyota-prius-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
                                              >
                                              >
                                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.