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Bladder Failure 2003

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  • swtilden
    Hi, I just had my fuel tank replaced on my 2003 Prius and wanted to let others know what symptoms I experienced before the tank was replaced. About 3 years ago
    Message 1 of 6 , May 4, 2013
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      Hi,

      I just had my fuel tank replaced on my 2003 Prius and wanted to let others know what symptoms I experienced before the tank was replaced.

      About 3 years ago the engine check light came on with a code of Engine ECU P1455 (Fuel vapor, small leak detected). I cleared the code with my ECROS Tech Mini-Scanner. Light came on again 3 months later and I cleared it again. Over the last 3 years the code came up 8 times. Went for as long as 11 months staying off.

      A couple of months ago, just after I filled the tank, the engine started to run poorly when very lightly loaded. Within a day, Engine ECU P3190 (Poor Engine Power) was shown. Cleared that, drove the car several hundred miles with no further performance issues.

      Next, the day after I filled the tank (being careful NOT to top it off) as the engine was warming up, it stalled and I got codes Engine ECU P3191 (Engine fails to start), Hybrid ECU P3101 (engine computer reported P3190 or P3191). Again a cleared the codes, drove some distance with no more problems.

      Then I noticed that if I disconnected the fuel vapor line from the green maintenance port in the engine compartment, it was slightly wet with fuel inside the hose. Not filled with fuel or anything, just wet. This seemed like a very bad sign.

      Also, on hot days, sometimes, very intermittently, the car would sometimes smell like fuel outside the car, but I could never tell definitively where the smell was coming from.

      The final symptom that got the car to the dealer was one unusually warm spring day, about 3 days after I had fueled the car, it left a gas stain under the car directly below the front edge of the fuel tank.

      Waited for code P1455 to come on again, then took the car in.

      Invoice said: "Internal Damage to Fuel Tank Bladder, R&R Fuel Tank Assy".

      Parts replaced:

      77740-47030 Canister Assy, Charc
      77730-47010 Canister Assy, Trap
      77001-47071 Tank Sub-assy, Fuel

      Total cost for the job for parts and labor, but excluding tax was about $1300 ($731 parts).

      Except for the P1455 code, I think the other reported codes were the result of extra fuel being fed into the engine via the fuel line vent hose.

      Steve Tilden
      2003 Prius
      99,000 miles
    • David Kelly
      ... 77740-47030: $201.29 thats surprisingly expensive 77730-47010: $98.72 77001-47071: $172.09 gas tank is relatively cheap total: 472.10
      Message 2 of 6 , May 4, 2013
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        On May 4, 2013, at 1:25 PM, swtilden <swtilden@...> wrote:

        > Parts replaced:
        >
        > 77740-47030 Canister Assy, Charc
        > 77730-47010 Canister Assy, Trap
        > 77001-47071 Tank Sub-assy, Fuel
        >
        > Total cost for the job for parts and labor, but excluding tax was about $1300 ($731 parts).

        77740-47030: $201.29 thats surprisingly expensive
        77730-47010: $98.72
        77001-47071: $172.09 gas tank is relatively cheap
        total: 472.10

        http://www.toyotapartszone.com/oem/toyota~tank~assy~fuel~77001-47071.html

        I doubt it was necessary to replace the charcoal canister but I understand why the dealer had to do it. "The Book" told him to, and it was more profit. Charcoal canisters are designed to recover when soaked in gasoline.

        --
        David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@...
        ============================================================
        Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad.
      • Bob
        Thanks for the detailed write-up. Any insights as to contributing causes? Parts do fail so I m OK with that but I thought I d ask: climate, fuel source,
        Message 3 of 6 , May 5, 2013
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          Thanks for the detailed write-up. Any insights as to contributing causes?

          Parts do fail so I'm OK with that but I thought I'd ask: climate, fuel source, typical filling protocol, typical fill-up intervals, e.t.c.

          The reason I ask is I recently completed an E85 study with my NHW11 Prius. This included ~E50 and one full tank of E85. Needless to say, one always wonders about materials compatibility but these effects usually take a longer period than a couple of tanks.

          Thanks,
          Bob Wilson

          --- In toyota-prius@yahoogroups.com, "swtilden" <swtilden@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi,
          >
          > I just had my fuel tank replaced on my 2003 Prius and wanted to let others know what symptoms I experienced before the tank was replaced.
          >
          > About 3 years ago the engine check light came on with a code of Engine ECU P1455 (Fuel vapor, small leak detected). I cleared the code with my ECROS Tech Mini-Scanner. Light came on again 3 months later and I cleared it again. Over the last 3 years the code came up 8 times. Went for as long as 11 months staying off.
          >
          > A couple of months ago, just after I filled the tank, the engine started to run poorly when very lightly loaded. Within a day, Engine ECU P3190 (Poor Engine Power) was shown. Cleared that, drove the car several hundred miles with no further performance issues.
          >
          > Next, the day after I filled the tank (being careful NOT to top it off) as the engine was warming up, it stalled and I got codes Engine ECU P3191 (Engine fails to start), Hybrid ECU P3101 (engine computer reported P3190 or P3191). Again a cleared the codes, drove some distance with no more problems.
          >
          > Then I noticed that if I disconnected the fuel vapor line from the green maintenance port in the engine compartment, it was slightly wet with fuel inside the hose. Not filled with fuel or anything, just wet. This seemed like a very bad sign.
          >
          > Also, on hot days, sometimes, very intermittently, the car would sometimes smell like fuel outside the car, but I could never tell definitively where the smell was coming from.
          >
          > The final symptom that got the car to the dealer was one unusually warm spring day, about 3 days after I had fueled the car, it left a gas stain under the car directly below the front edge of the fuel tank.
          >
          > Waited for code P1455 to come on again, then took the car in.
          >
          > Invoice said: "Internal Damage to Fuel Tank Bladder, R&R Fuel Tank Assy".
          >
          > Parts replaced:
          >
          > 77740-47030 Canister Assy, Charc
          > 77730-47010 Canister Assy, Trap
          > 77001-47071 Tank Sub-assy, Fuel
          >
          > Total cost for the job for parts and labor, but excluding tax was about $1300 ($731 parts).
          >
          > Except for the P1455 code, I think the other reported codes were the result of extra fuel being fed into the engine via the fuel line vent hose.
          >
          > Steve Tilden
          > 2003 Prius
          > 99,000 miles
          >
        • swtilden
          David, Well actually-- the charcoal canister was replaced by the dealer first on the theory that the customer (me) had perhaps overfilled the tank. In
          Message 4 of 6 , May 5, 2013
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            David,

            Well actually-- the charcoal canister was replaced by the dealer first on the theory that the customer (me) had perhaps overfilled the tank. In retrospect that seems to me like a reasonable thing for the dealer to try first. But that didn't fix it so the other two parts then got changed. The dealer had warned that if the canister replacement didn't fix it, the tank was the next logical thing to replace. This particular dealer has a fairly large shop, and they had never actually seen a bladder fail before. Prior to the tank replacement, searching the Internet, I could not find any other case were someone reported an actual confirmed bladder failure. So it is perhaps not unreasonable that they were reluctant to change the tank. That said, it seems very odd to me that the charcoal canister (a small plastic box) would actually cost more than the fuel tank (a large steel box, with the bladder, fuel pump, and fuel level sensing system inside it).

            Steve Tilden
            2003 Prius
            99,000 miles



            --- In toyota-prius@yahoogroups.com, David Kelly <dkelly@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > On May 4, 2013, at 1:25 PM, swtilden <swtilden@...> wrote:
            >
            > > Parts replaced:
            > >
            > > 77740-47030 Canister Assy, Charc
            > > 77730-47010 Canister Assy, Trap
            > > 77001-47071 Tank Sub-assy, Fuel
            > >
            > > Total cost for the job for parts and labor, but excluding tax was about $1300 ($731 parts).
            >
            > 77740-47030: $201.29 thats surprisingly expensive
            > 77730-47010: $98.72
            > 77001-47071: $172.09 gas tank is relatively cheap
            > total: 472.10
            >
            > http://www.toyotapartszone.com/oem/toyota~tank~assy~fuel~77001-47071.html
            >
            > I doubt it was necessary to replace the charcoal canister but I understand why the dealer had to do it. "The Book" told him to, and it was more profit. Charcoal canisters are designed to recover when soaked in gasoline.
            >
            > --
            > David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@...
            > ============================================================
            > Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad.
            >
          • David Kelly
            ... Oh, the internet is chock full of bladder failures. All said to be due to the evil practice of topping off the tank , letting the foam settle after the
            Message 5 of 6 , May 5, 2013
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              On May 5, 2013, at 11:38 AM, swtilden <swtilden@...> wrote:

              > Well actually-- the charcoal canister was replaced by the dealer first on the theory that the customer (me) had perhaps overfilled the tank. In retrospect that seems to me like a reasonable thing for the dealer to try first. But that didn't fix it so the other two parts then got changed. The dealer had warned that if the canister replacement didn't fix it, the tank was the next logical thing to replace. This particular dealer has a fairly large shop, and they had never actually seen a bladder fail before. Prior to the tank replacement, searching the Internet, I could not find any other case were someone reported an actual confirmed bladder failure. So it is perhaps not unreasonable that they were reluctant to change the tank. That said, it seems very odd to me that the charcoal canister (a small plastic box) would actually cost more than the fuel tank (a large steel box, with the bladder, fuel pump, and fuel level sensing system inside it).

              Oh, the internet is chock full of bladder failures. All said to be due to the evil practice of "topping off the tank", letting the foam settle after the nozzle cuts off the first time and "forcing" more fuel in the tank. Is said to damage the bladder by overfilling it. By pressurizing the bladder. I say B.S. The only pressure in the bladder is the weight of the fuel. Plus the bladder is fairly thick and heavy.

              My 2007 got a new gas tank my first month. Couple of days after getting it home it had a CEL. Dealer "tested" and decided all else was good so it must be the ECU. Another CEL a couple of days later they tested again and said a valve in the gas tank was the real problem but not available separately so I got an entire new tank. No CEL since.

              No matter thick and heavy, they will fail eventually. However I'm glad Toyota deleted this fool experiment from the current generation of Prius. But not glad enough to spend the money to trade mine for new.

              Overfilling the tank should not damage the charcoal canister. If it gets soaked in gas then it should dry out in normal operation. Its *supposed* to get soaked in gas, its purpose is to catch gas vapors when the car is sitting. When driving air is piped through it to dry it out and burn whatever it has captured.

              --
              David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@...
              ============================================================
              Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad.
            • Steve Goldfield
              The bladder on my 2001 Prius failed and was replaced. I ve forgotten how many miles I had at the time, but it was more than 100,000.They also told me that it
              Message 6 of 6 , May 6, 2013
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                The bladder on my 2001 Prius failed and was replaced. I've forgotten how many miles I had at the time, but it was more than 100,000.They also told me that it was from overfilling, but then they told me that the high voltage cable from the traction battery to the front of the car corroded because of the current running through it so I don't put much trust in the knowledge of physics by Toyota dealers.

                Steve Goldfield


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