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Re: [toyota-prius] Raising Gas Prices Have Some Considering...

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  • David Kelly
    ... The special is that it works. Is not a HINO, Hybrid In Name Only the way so many others are. The Prius works not because it is a hybrid, but because it
    Message 1 of 21 , Mar 2, 2012
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      On Mar 2, 2012, at 11:18 AM, docaaron1 wrote:

      > Anyone seeing the percentage of hybrids on the road that are made by Toyota can understand that something is special about the Toyota hybrid system.

      The "special" is that it works. Is not a HINO, Hybrid In Name Only the way so many others are.

      The Prius works not because it is a hybrid, but because it is a Toyota.

      --
      David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@...
      ============================================================
      Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad.
    • Bob
      ... No. There is more than a decade of USA Prius experience going on nearly 15 years of Japanese experience. The experiment has been going on more than
      Message 2 of 21 , Mar 4, 2012
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        <AHEM>

        --- In toyota-prius@yahoogroups.com, "docaaron1" <docaaron1@...> wrote:
        >
        > I think Toyota will have to help people understand . . .

        No.

        There is more than a decade of USA Prius experience going on nearly 15 years of Japanese experience. The experiment has been going on more than long enough to make the differences clear and unambiguous. With 2/3d of the monthly hybrid sales, it doesn't take a weatherman to tell which way the wind blows.

        > . . . the difference between Gas-n-Go hybrids from Plug-in Hybrids. As well as
        > the difference between their HSD hybrid system and other hybrid systems.

        Ford has a good system and the Honda series aren't slackers. They achieve about 80-90% of the Toyota systems and that is good enough to make them #2 and #3.

        > Anyone seeing the percentage of hybrids on the road that are made by Toyota
        > can understand that something is special about the Toyota hybrid system.

        There is something special about the Toyota hybrid buyers. They are not 'sheeple' who can be fooled by the liars and cheap car salesmen like Lutz. Year after year, we have bought and continued to buy Prius and are not fooled by tail-pipe sucking diesels nor any one of hundreds of false claimants.

        What is truly sad is we are less than 2% of the auto buying population. If this ratio holds true for all other aspects of this reality, it means we're looking at a sad but for some of us, not unexpected state of humanity. <grumble . . . old man . . . grumble>

        So my thinking is rejoice that at least 2% of us 'have a clue.' We are sparse but not alone. Don't expect 98% to ever get a clue . . . they have other . . . priorities. Rather, rejoice that we few and thankfully Toyota, have not been fooled.

        Bob Wilson
      • Walter Lee
        Toyota Prius is the top selling hybrid in the USA because it is reliable, reasonably priced and actually delivers signficantly better fuel efficiency for the
        Message 3 of 21 , Mar 4, 2012
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          Toyota Prius is the top selling hybrid in the USA because it is reliable, reasonably priced and actually delivers signficantly better fuel efficiency for the extra premiem one has to pay for hybrid technology.  Moreover, because Toyota has marketed/sold the Prius at a reasonable price over multiple generation of its design Toyota has been able to sell a signficantly large number of Prii -so now they are everywhere.  
           
          Fuel prices are still reasonably affordable in the USA - so fuel efficiency is not the most important factor for many Americans. Hence, vehicles which are even more fuel efficient than the Prius but are more expensive like the Nissan Leaf and the Chevy Volt are just not selling well at all. As the price of gasoline increases to less affordable levels - maybe more Americans will consider the Nissan Leaf and Chevy Volt.  Currently, hybrid technology like that on a Toyota Prius seems to be the most affordable *bridge* to alternative energy technology for the near future and if gas goes over  $9 per gallon - an  Enginer  Plug-in Conversion will start to make sense.
           
          Toyota's technical support of the Prius community has also help create the  a most active, technologically competent, and supportive owner/user base for any alternative energy vehicle in the world ( hybrid, plug-in, BEV, natural gas, bio diesel).  So not only is a Prius a reasonably obtainable fuel efficient vehicle with respect to other competing technologies BUT the Prius  has a the largest driving/owner community which can help a new owner/driver get the most effective use out of hybrid technology .  For example, my cousin bought a Ford Fusion hybrid at the same time I bought by Prius ( with the incentives he paid only about a thousand or so more) - but unlike me my cousin does not have the same access to a fantastic supportive owner/driver community group that I have for the Prius.  While Ford Fusion hybrid has better ergonomics and is a very capable hybrid in its own right, my cousin was unable to achieve any signficant fuel
          efficiency improvement with his Ford Fusion hybrid over his previous conventional gas vehicle.   The crucial factor in this equation is the simple fact that cars don't drive themselves. Just as giving a person a Stradivarius does not make him/her  a concert violinist, putting a driver inside a hybrid does not automatically make that driver-vehicle combination significantly more fuel efficient.  While I've been able learn how to beat the Prius EPA rating by over 20% on a fairly consistent basis it is only because  I had somewhere I could go and there was someone I could ask for help.  The Prius is something akin to a World War I Sopwith Camel biplane for hybrid cars - a novel design that takes skill to master  but once those skills are mastered provides a signficant advantage.
           
          I bought the Prius - because I  wanted to still be able to afford and justify driving a car even if gasoline prices jumped past $6.00  per gallon.  I'm not surprise that gasoline prices are going up- in fact, I've been expecting it for a while. It's one of the reasons, I've been training on my Prius to hypermile. 
           
          Walter Lee
          aka "HyperDrive 1" on Cleanmpg.com
          2010 Toyota Prius III, Blue Ribbon/Dark Grey, Oem Floormats
          Yokohama Avid S33d (front 50psi/rear 48 psi)
          100% grill blocking
          ScangaugeII (Fwt/AVG, SoC, RPM, GPH)
          Odometer: +20000miles
          with an overall 60.9 mpg  calculated at the pump using 10% ethanol 87 oct gas over 22 months.
           
           
           
          From: docaaron1 <docaaron1@...>
          To: toyota-prius@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Friday, March 2, 2012 12:18 PM
          Subject: [toyota-prius] Raising Gas Prices Have Some Considering...


           
          I think Toyota will have to help people understand the difference between Gas-n-Go hybrids from Plug-in Hybrids. As well as the difference between their HSD hybrid system and other hybrid systems.

          Anyone seeing the percentage of hybrids on the road that are made by Toyota can understand that something is special about the Toyota hybrid system.

          See video:

          http://fox6now.com/2012/02/29/rising-gas-prices-has-many-considering-hybrid-cars/

          Aaron
          129K miles
          '02 Prius
          Gas-n-Go Hybrid


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • ChrisZ
          ... [snip] For example, my cousin bought a Ford Fusion hybrid at the same time I bought by Prius ( with the incentives he paid only about a thousand or so
          Message 4 of 21 , Mar 5, 2012
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            --- In toyota-prius@yahoogroups.com, Walter Lee <waltermlee@...> wrote:
            >
            [snip]

            For example, my cousin bought a Ford Fusion hybrid at the same time I bought by Prius ( with the incentives he paid only about a thousand or so more) - but unlike me my cousin does not have the same access to a fantastic supportive owner/driver community group that I have for the Prius.  While Ford Fusion hybrid has better ergonomics and is a very capable hybrid in its own right, my cousin was unable to achieve any signficant fuel efficiency improvement with his Ford Fusion hybrid over his previous conventional gas vehicle.   The crucial factor in this equation is the simple fact that cars don't drive themselves. Just as giving a person a Stradivarius does not make him/her  a concert violinist, putting a driver inside a hybrid does not automatically make that driver-vehicle combination significantly more fuel efficient.  While I've been able learn how to beat the Prius EPA rating by over 20% on a fairly consistent basis it is only because  I had somewhere I could go and there was someone I could ask for help.  The Prius is something akin to a World War I Sopwith Camel biplane for hybrid cars - a novel design that takes skill to master  but once those skills are mastered provides a signficant advantage.

            [snip]

            I disagree. If a person must practice "hypermiling" and/or paying extra careful attention to their driving technique to achieve the rated fuel economy (or reasonably close), then hybrid cars are not ready for the general public. This was the case with the original Honda Insight, which as I understand it required the driver to carefully monitor the battery charge state and drive accordingly. Toyota marketed the Prius with the tagline, "Just drive it." Many people do just that, they just drive it, and they get good fuel economy without extra effort.

            I think that a person's driving pattern has a strong effect on their fuel economy. I drive 7 miles to work. That rarely gives me more than two 5-min average mpg bars on the multi-function display. And you Prius drivers know that first bar is not going to be very good. In cold weather climes like Minnesota, that first bar can often be about 25 mpg. The second bar may be better, but sometimes not much better when it's cold. So on my driving pattern, in Minnesota, I might be averaging 35 mpg over the course of a tank of gas. To get to my work, I have to cross the Mississippi River. There is only one direct route for me to do that, and it involves taking an interstate freeway. I'm not going to hypermile on the freeway, and I don't think I could if I wanted to. Often the freeway is stop and go traffic. On a bad snow day when the traffic is crawling at 5 mph, my mileage can drop into the 20s.

            If your cousin doesn't get any better mileage in his Fusion hybrid than in a gas-only car, it may well be the result of his driving pattern, not the lack of a hybrid community telling him how to hypermile.

            --Chris
          • Walter Lee
            The Prius doesn t necessarily require hypermiling but it most of the time it needs to be driven longer than 40minutes/7 miles before it comes close to reaching
            Message 5 of 21 , Mar 5, 2012
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              The Prius doesn't necessarily require hypermiling but it most of the time it needs to be driven longer than 40minutes/7 miles before it comes close to reaching the EPA rating to mitigate the Prius' high initial warmup cost.  I think hybrid technology has been oversold wrt to fuel efficiency - Hybrid technology doesn't necessarily translate to better fuel efficiency because hybrid fuel efficiency advantages occurs under  certain driving conditions. 
               
              Your correct in that my cousin's driving pattern did affect his fuel efficiency ( he had a very short daily commute) and my driving pattern enhanced my fuel efficiency( I had a long daily commute) .  He also isn't overinflating his tires, I am. He also isn't blocking his air intake grill, I am. He also isn't  hypermiling,  I am.  He bought his hybrid thinking it was going to work like  a regular car, I bought my Prius thinking it was going to work differently from a regular car.
               
              FWIW - the claims of very high MPG(>90 mpg) on first generation Honda Insight (5sp Manual) is mainly  credited to a hypermiling techique called NICE ( which is illegal in some states). In a hypermiling NiCE session, a driver gets the car up to a nice speed on a long downhill stretch of road and then puts the tranny in neutral and coasts/glides downhill with the engine off - it is somewhat akin to being a soapbox derby racer. 
               
               
               

              From: ChrisZ <chriszerby1@...>
              To: toyota-prius@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, March 5, 2012 11:33 AM
              Subject: [toyota-prius] Re: Raising Gas Prices Have Some Considering...


               


              --- In toyota-prius@yahoogroups.com, Walter Lee <waltermlee@...> wrote:
              >
              [snip]

              For example, my cousin bought a Ford Fusion hybrid at the same time I bought by Prius ( with the incentives he paid only about a thousand or so more) - but unlike me my cousin does not have the same access to a fantastic supportive owner/driver community group that I have for the Prius.  While Ford Fusion hybrid has better ergonomics and is a very capable hybrid in its own right, my cousin was unable to achieve any signficant fuel efficiency improvement with his Ford Fusion hybrid over his previous conventional gas vehicle.   The crucial factor in this equation is the simple fact that cars don't drive themselves. Just as giving a person a Stradivarius does not make him/her  a concert violinist, putting a driver inside a hybrid does not automatically make that driver-vehicle combination significantly more fuel efficient.  While I've been able learn how to beat the Prius EPA rating by over 20% on a fairly consistent basis it is only
              because  I had somewhere I could go and there was someone I could ask for help.  The Prius is something akin to a World War I Sopwith Camel biplane for hybrid cars - a novel design that takes skill to master  but once those skills are mastered provides a signficant advantage.

              [snip]

              I disagree. If a person must practice "hypermiling" and/or paying extra careful attention to their driving technique to achieve the rated fuel economy (or reasonably close), then hybrid cars are not ready for the general public. This was the case with the original Honda Insight, which as I understand it required the driver to carefully monitor the battery charge state and drive accordingly. Toyota marketed the Prius with the tagline, "Just drive it." Many people do just that, they just drive it, and they get good fuel economy without extra effort.

              I think that a person's driving pattern has a strong effect on their fuel economy. I drive 7 miles to work. That rarely gives me more than two 5-min average mpg bars on the multi-function display. And you Prius drivers know that first bar is not going to be very good. In cold weather climes like Minnesota, that first bar can often be about 25 mpg. The second bar may be better, but sometimes not much better when it's cold. So on my driving pattern, in Minnesota, I might be averaging 35 mpg over the course of a tank of gas. To get to my work, I have to cross the Mississippi River. There is only one direct route for me to do that, and it involves taking an interstate freeway. I'm not going to hypermile on the freeway, and I don't think I could if I wanted to. Often the freeway is stop and go traffic. On a bad snow day when the traffic is crawling at 5 mph, my mileage can drop into the 20s.

              If your cousin doesn't get any better mileage in his Fusion hybrid than in a gas-only car, it may well be the result of his driving pattern, not the lack of a hybrid community telling him how to hypermile.

              --Chris




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Bruce Richmond
              ... From what I have seen if someone just drives the Prius like a normal car they can expect to get low 40s mpg. Without they hybrid assist, which is what I
              Message 6 of 21 , Mar 5, 2012
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                --- In toyota-prius@yahoogroups.com, "ChrisZ" <chriszerby1@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In toyota-prius@yahoogroups.com, Walter Lee <waltermlee@> wrote:
                > >
                > [snip]
                >
                > For example, my cousin bought a Ford Fusion hybrid at the same time I bought by Prius ( with the incentives he paid only about a thousand or so more) - but unlike me my cousin does not have the same access to a fantastic supportive owner/driver community group that I have for the Prius.  While Ford Fusion hybrid has better ergonomics and is a very capable hybrid in its own right, my cousin was unable to achieve any signficant fuel efficiency improvement with his Ford Fusion hybrid over his previous conventional gas vehicle.   The crucial factor in this equation is the simple fact that cars don't drive themselves. Just as giving a person a Stradivarius does not make him/her  a concert violinist, putting a driver inside a hybrid does not automatically make that driver-vehicle combination significantly more fuel efficient.  While I've been able learn how to beat the Prius EPA rating by over 20% on a fairly consistent basis it is only because  I had somewhere I could go and there was someone I could ask for help.  The Prius is something akin to a World War I Sopwith Camel biplane for hybrid cars - a novel design that takes skill to master  but once those skills are mastered provides a signficant advantage.
                >
                > [snip]
                >
                > I disagree. If a person must practice "hypermiling" and/or paying extra careful attention to their driving technique to achieve the rated fuel economy (or reasonably close), then hybrid cars are not ready for the general public. This was the case with the original Honda Insight, which as I understand it required the driver to carefully monitor the battery charge state and drive accordingly. Toyota marketed the Prius with the tagline, "Just drive it." Many people do just that, they just drive it, and they get good fuel economy without extra effort.
                >
                > I think that a person's driving pattern has a strong effect on their fuel economy. I drive 7 miles to work. That rarely gives me more than two 5-min average mpg bars on the multi-function display. And you Prius drivers know that first bar is not going to be very good. In cold weather climes like Minnesota, that first bar can often be about 25 mpg. The second bar may be better, but sometimes not much better when it's cold. So on my driving pattern, in Minnesota, I might be averaging 35 mpg over the course of a tank of gas. To get to my work, I have to cross the Mississippi River. There is only one direct route for me to do that, and it involves taking an interstate freeway. I'm not going to hypermile on the freeway, and I don't think I could if I wanted to. Often the freeway is stop and go traffic. On a bad snow day when the traffic is crawling at 5 mph, my mileage can drop into the 20s.
                >
                > If your cousin doesn't get any better mileage in his Fusion hybrid than in a gas-only car, it may well be the result of his driving pattern, not the lack of a hybrid community telling him how to hypermile.
                >
                > --Chris
                >

                From what I have seen if someone just drives the Prius like a normal car they can expect to get low 40s mpg. Without they hybrid assist, which is what I was dealing with when a module died, it gets about 37 mpg. So the hybrid equipment is good for about 5mpg if you do nothing different from normal.

                Add pressure to the tires, block the grill and modify you driving slightly and 50 mpg should be no problem. Make an effort to hypermile and 55 to 60 mpg is not that hard to achive.

                While a normal ICE in a car roughly the same size, with the same performance might normally get 37 mpg you would be doing well to get much over 40 mpg by modifying your driving.

                I'm suprised some of the common hypermiling techniques aren't incorperated into the ICE control software. It already cycles the ICE off and on under some conditions. It also shouldn't be too difficult to tie it into a GPS so that it knows when you will be going down a hill. It could then use EV mode to drain the battery and make room for a charge from coasting down the hill. Given a planned route it could work out how to best take advantage of the battery.

                Bruce
              • ChrisZ
                ... [snip] ... car they can expect to get low 40s mpg. Without they hybrid assist, which is what I was dealing with when a module died, it gets about 37 mpg.
                Message 7 of 21 , Mar 6, 2012
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                  --- In toyota-prius@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Richmond" <bsr3997@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  [snip]

                  > From what I have seen if someone just drives the Prius like a normal
                  car they can expect to get low 40s mpg. Without they hybrid assist,
                  which is what I was dealing with when a module died, it gets about 37
                  mpg. So the hybrid equipment is good for about 5mpg if you do nothing
                  different from normal.
                  >
                  > Add pressure to the tires, block the grill and modify you driving
                  slightly and 50 mpg should be no problem. Make an effort to hypermile
                  and 55 to 60 mpg is not that hard to achive.
                  >
                  > While a normal ICE in a car roughly the same size, with the same
                  performance might normally get 37 mpg you would be doing well to get
                  much over 40 mpg by modifying your driving.
                  >
                  > I'm suprised some of the common hypermiling techniques aren't
                  incorperated into the ICE control software. It already cycles the ICE
                  off and on under some conditions. It also shouldn't be too difficult to
                  tie it into a GPS so that it knows when you will be going down a hill.
                  It could then use EV mode to drain the battery and make room for a
                  charge from coasting down the hill. Given a planned route it could work
                  out how to best take advantage of the battery.
                  >
                  > Bruce

                  I'm not sure what you mean by driving without the "hybrid assist." As
                  far as I know, the Prius cannot be driven at all without the full hybrid
                  system in working order. My 2002, which I "just drive," can achieve
                  about 50 mpg on a long freeway trip, especially if the top speed is
                  limited to 65 mph or less. I usually get in the mid 40s in the summer
                  and mid to high 30s in the winter with my usual commute and
                  miscellaneous driving pattern in Minnesota. The only extras I practice
                  are higher tire pressure, usually about 42/40 psi, and I avoid using the
                  gas-brake-gas-brake way some people drive.

                  My wife drives a 2008 Prius, and she has a different driving pattern.
                  She typically gets more like high 40s to low 50s in the summer and low
                  to mid 40s in the winter. She is even more a "just drive it" kind of
                  driver. She doesn't like me to keep her tires at a higher pressure.

                  Tell me what "normal ICE car" in the mid-size range gets 37 mpg in
                  combined-type driving.

                  I think hypermiling is ridiculous for normal, day-to-day driving. I'm
                  not going to speed up to 70 mph in a 60 mph zone and then allow myself
                  to slow down to 50 mph, and repeat. Is there some other technique that
                  is not as obnoxious?

                  --CZ
                • joe spindler
                  At what outsold max temp is it O K to block the front air input?? Is there a over heat temperature indicator? I just drove 600 mi from Boston to Phily and ave
                  Message 8 of 21 , Mar 6, 2012
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                    At what outsold max temp is it O K to block the front air input??
                    Is there a over heat temperature indicator?
                    I just drove 600 mi from Boston to Phily and ave of 48MPG, in the rain and outside temp af 30's.
                    I average for the year in the 50'sMPG

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Dan Quaranto
                    ... slightly and 50 mpg should be no problem. Make an effort to hypermile and 55 to 60 mpg is not that hard to achive. Not aware of the grill blocking. Is
                    Message 9 of 21 , Mar 7, 2012
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                      > Add pressure to the tires, block the grill and modify you driving
                      slightly and 50 mpg should be no problem. Make an effort to hypermile
                      and 55 to 60 mpg is not that hard to achive.



                      Not aware of the grill blocking. Is this all year or only during the cooler
                      months?

                      Anybody have any issues with this "fix" ?



                      dq



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Bruce Richmond
                      I noticed after sending my reply that it went to you alone. Please post it to the list. Stupid default.
                      Message 10 of 21 , Mar 7, 2012
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                        I noticed after sending my reply that it went to you alone. Please post it to the list. Stupid default.

                        --- In toyota-prius@yahoogroups.com, "ChrisZ" <chriszerby1@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In toyota-prius@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Richmond" <bsr3997@>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > [snip]
                        >
                        > > From what I have seen if someone just drives the Prius like a normal
                        > car they can expect to get low 40s mpg. Without they hybrid assist,
                        > which is what I was dealing with when a module died, it gets about 37
                        > mpg. So the hybrid equipment is good for about 5mpg if you do nothing
                        > different from normal.
                        > >
                        > > Add pressure to the tires, block the grill and modify you driving
                        > slightly and 50 mpg should be no problem. Make an effort to hypermile
                        > and 55 to 60 mpg is not that hard to achive.
                        > >
                        > > While a normal ICE in a car roughly the same size, with the same
                        > performance might normally get 37 mpg you would be doing well to get
                        > much over 40 mpg by modifying your driving.
                        > >
                        > > I'm suprised some of the common hypermiling techniques aren't
                        > incorperated into the ICE control software. It already cycles the ICE
                        > off and on under some conditions. It also shouldn't be too difficult to
                        > tie it into a GPS so that it knows when you will be going down a hill.
                        > It could then use EV mode to drain the battery and make room for a
                        > charge from coasting down the hill. Given a planned route it could work
                        > out how to best take advantage of the battery.
                        > >
                        > > Bruce
                        >
                        > I'm not sure what you mean by driving without the "hybrid assist." As
                        > far as I know, the Prius cannot be driven at all without the full hybrid
                        > system in working order. My 2002, which I "just drive," can achieve
                        > about 50 mpg on a long freeway trip, especially if the top speed is
                        > limited to 65 mph or less. I usually get in the mid 40s in the summer
                        > and mid to high 30s in the winter with my usual commute and
                        > miscellaneous driving pattern in Minnesota. The only extras I practice
                        > are higher tire pressure, usually about 42/40 psi, and I avoid using the
                        > gas-brake-gas-brake way some people drive.
                        >
                        > My wife drives a 2008 Prius, and she has a different driving pattern.
                        > She typically gets more like high 40s to low 50s in the summer and low
                        > to mid 40s in the winter. She is even more a "just drive it" kind of
                        > driver. She doesn't like me to keep her tires at a higher pressure.
                        >
                        > Tell me what "normal ICE car" in the mid-size range gets 37 mpg in
                        > combined-type driving.
                        >
                        > I think hypermiling is ridiculous for normal, day-to-day driving. I'm
                        > not going to speed up to 70 mph in a 60 mph zone and then allow myself
                        > to slow down to 50 mph, and repeat. Is there some other technique that
                        > is not as obnoxious?
                        >
                        > --CZ
                        >
                      • Walter Lee
                          Hypermiling is not for everyone and I m not advocating hypermiling as the only way to increase fuel efficiency but I want to use it to emphasize
                        Message 11 of 21 , Mar 7, 2012
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                          Hypermiling is not for everyone and I'm not advocating hypermiling as the only way to increase fuel efficiency but I want to use it to emphasize how important driving skills and techniques are to increasing  fuel efficiency - it demostrates how important the driver is towards achieving high fuel efficiency.  Until cars drive themselves, a driver's skill and effort to achieving fuel efficiency is still going to be a significant factor in achieving fuel efficiency. Wrt  Hypermiling I think the best guide sofar is the website Cleanmpg.com. Cars that drive themselves are still in the lab stage - and from what I've seen the software and hardware are very complex (a driverless car is only street legal in Nevada) - so the truck driver is not going to be obsolete for some time. 
                           
                          The problem with GPS to anticipate downhill elevations is that GPS maps can sometime wrong ( e.g. the GPS map might says a road exist when it does not). For switching off the ICE during a downhill grade, an real time sensors (e.g. an altimeter or an angle of declination sensor) would be needed.   While  NICE can  increase FE advantage on a Prius it is illegal in most jurisdiction. sigh.
                           
                          Another way to increase the gasoline fuel efficiency of a gasoline engine (ICE) is to pre-heat the ICE with an electric engine block heater (EBH) up to about 60F to 100F before you start running the ICE.   During the first 3 to 8 minutes of operation the Prius ICE is incredible fuel inefficient with most of its energy expended on heating up (itself and the emission system) using the EBH can pushes the ICE past the worst part of this thermal inefficiency.  ICE fuel efficiency improves significantly when the ICE coolant temperature reaches about 140F but it doesn't actually peak fuel efficiency until 181F. If you dont have an EBH, you can also initially running your Prius fast (>50mph) for an extend time period (>12 minutes)  without stopping. If you are driving in stop and go congested traffic at city speed like I am it may take up to 50 minutes before the Prius get up to 180F during the wintertime (<40F degree outside temperatures).  Just
                          preheating the ICE so it doesn't have to work as hard to get to 180F degrees significantly improves the Prius' FE.  A testimony/report from Massachesetts  that I've read suggest that a 60 minute warmup session with a 400W EBH can boost a 2nd/3rd Generation  Prius' MPG about 20mpg for a long commute.  Sofar the tricks I've used to improve on thermal efficiency(beyond the grill blocking) have included reschedule my driving during a warmer part of the day and parking my car exposed to the afternoon sun in the winter time (if I had access to a heated garage that would be better still). If you drive in were the driving temperatures rarely drop below 60F there is very little advantage to an EBH. I was going to do some experiments with an EBH this winter - but this winter has turned out to be a wash in Maryland - its has been way to warm to get any reasonable data points. The uptick to this very warm winter is a fuel efficiency jump from last winter
                          52 mpg low to a 58 mpg low this winter. I guess I shouldn't be complaining...
                           
                          Also the weight directly under the rear tires have a more signficant affect on the drag of the rear tires than any other weight  distributed inside the Prius, minimizing the weight from the rear cargo bay that is directly under the rear axle will lower the drag on the rear wheels and can increase the coasting ability of the Prius. For example, I can get a slight boost in MPG at the end of my tank if a make more frequent attempts at low speed coasting/gliding because the tank is near empty and so there is less weight/drag on the rear axle.  Aptera solve the rear wheel drag problem by  eliminating one of the rear wheels and making their car a three wheeled vehicle but IMHO that's a bit too drastic.
                           
                          At very high speed, >=50 mph,  the vehicle's top speed and eliminating external drag are more important to fuel efficiency(FE) than the two superhighway FE driving skills techniques you can use [Drafting/Slipstreaming and Driving with Load(DWL)]. Drafting can only be done safely in special situations so its not really that useful. DWL is very hard to do for an extended session ( I don't have the stamina to do it for longer than one hour). Most of the time I use cruise control - it's much easier and as long as I  limit my top speed between 53 to 65 mph and stay on the right lane of the super highway the Prius can get between 60mpg to 49mpg . Once I pass 66 mph, the Prius FE drops and is likely to get about 48 mpg or less.  Eliminate external drag  can help any car get better FE at very high speeds - if I did more high speed driving (which I dont) I probably would be more motivated to examine this engineering strategy. The best guide for this
                          engineering strategy IMHO is Ecomodder.com (see below) - there's alot of ideas there...
                           
                          http://ecomodder.com/forum/fuel-economy-mpg-modifications.php
                           
                           
                          HTH
                           
                          Walter

                          From: ChrisZ <chriszerby1@...>
                          To: toyota-prius@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Tuesday, March 6, 2012 11:54 AM
                          Subject: [toyota-prius] Re: Raising Gas Prices Have Some Considering...


                           

                          --- In toyota-prius@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Richmond" <bsr3997@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          [snip]

                          > From what I have seen if someone just drives the Prius like a normal
                          car they can expect to get low 40s mpg. Without they hybrid assist,
                          which is what I was dealing with when a module died, it gets about 37
                          mpg. So the hybrid equipment is good for about 5mpg if you do nothing
                          different from normal.
                          >
                          > Add pressure to the tires, block the grill and modify you driving
                          slightly and 50 mpg should be no problem. Make an effort to hypermile
                          and 55 to 60 mpg is not that hard to achive.
                          >
                          > While a normal ICE in a car roughly the same size, with the same
                          performance might normally get 37 mpg you would be doing well to get
                          much over 40 mpg by modifying your driving.
                          >
                          > I'm suprised some of the common hypermiling techniques aren't
                          incorperated into the ICE control software. It already cycles the ICE
                          off and on under some conditions. It also shouldn't be too difficult to
                          tie it into a GPS so that it knows when you will be going down a hill.
                          It could then use EV mode to drain the battery and make room for a
                          charge from coasting down the hill. Given a planned route it could work
                          out how to best take advantage of the battery.
                          >
                          > Bruce

                          I'm not sure what you mean by driving without the "hybrid assist." As
                          far as I know, the Prius cannot be driven at all without the full hybrid
                          system in working order. My 2002, which I "just drive," can achieve
                          about 50 mpg on a long freeway trip, especially if the top speed is
                          limited to 65 mph or less. I usually get in the mid 40s in the summer
                          and mid to high 30s in the winter with my usual commute and
                          miscellaneous driving pattern in Minnesota. The only extras I practice
                          are higher tire pressure, usually about 42/40 psi, and I avoid using the
                          gas-brake-gas-brake way some people drive.

                          My wife drives a 2008 Prius, and she has a different driving pattern.
                          She typically gets more like high 40s to low 50s in the summer and low
                          to mid 40s in the winter. She is even more a "just drive it" kind of
                          driver. She doesn't like me to keep her tires at a higher pressure.

                          Tell me what "normal ICE car" in the mid-size range gets 37 mpg in
                          combined-type driving.

                          I think hypermiling is ridiculous for normal, day-to-day driving. I'm
                          not going to speed up to 70 mph in a 60 mph zone and then allow myself
                          to slow down to 50 mph, and repeat. Is there some other technique that
                          is not as obnoxious?

                          --CZ




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • David Kelly
                          ... Agreed. As clueless as top-posting replies. Replies to list messages should be sent to list and list only. If you wish to reply off-list then that is fine,
                          Message 12 of 21 , Mar 7, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            On Mar 7, 2012, at 7:05 AM, Bruce Richmond wrote:

                            > I noticed after sending my reply that it went to you alone. Please post it to the list. Stupid default.

                            Agreed. As clueless as top-posting replies.

                            Replies to list messages should be sent to list and list only. If you wish to reply off-list then that is fine, but not to the list AND direct to everyone who has participated. Presumably they still subscribe and will get a copy through the list.

                            I set the Reply-To: header back to the list in my replies. Has tripped ignorant abusives into making public replies when they thought they could privately rant with impunity.

                            --
                            David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@...
                            ========================================================================
                            Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad.
                          • ChrisZ
                            ... By that I meant lacking regen and battery assist. When the module went regen went with it. The battery wouldn t accept a charge so the friction brakes
                            Message 13 of 21 , Mar 7, 2012
                            • 0 Attachment
                              >
                              --- In toyota-prius@yahoogroups.com, "ChrisZ" <chriszerby1@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In toyota-prius@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Richmond" <bsr3997@>
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > [snip]
                              >
                              > > From what I have seen if someone just drives the Prius like a normal
                              > car they can expect to get low 40s mpg. Without they hybrid assist,
                              > which is what I was dealing with when a module died, it gets about 37
                              > mpg. So the hybrid equipment is good for about 5mpg if you do nothing
                              > different from normal.
                              > >
                              > > Add pressure to the tires, block the grill and modify you driving
                              > slightly and 50 mpg should be no problem. Make an effort to hypermile
                              > and 55 to 60 mpg is not that hard to achive.
                              > >
                              > > While a normal ICE in a car roughly the same size, with the same
                              > performance might normally get 37 mpg you would be doing well to get
                              > much over 40 mpg by modifying your driving.
                              > >
                              > > I'm suprised some of the common hypermiling techniques aren't
                              > incorperated into the ICE control software. It already cycles the ICE
                              > off and on under some conditions. It also shouldn't be too difficult to
                              > tie it into a GPS so that it knows when you will be going down a hill.
                              > It could then use EV mode to drain the battery and make room for a
                              > charge from coasting down the hill. Given a planned route it could work
                              > out how to best take advantage of the battery.
                              > >
                              > > Bruce
                              >
                              > I'm not sure what you mean by driving without the "hybrid assist." As
                              > far as I know, the Prius cannot be driven at all without the full hybrid
                              > system in working order.

                              By that I meant lacking regen and battery assist. When the module went regen went with it. The battery wouldn't accept a charge so the friction brakes took over. When it tried to draw anything from the battery it would detect a problem and stop trying, using the ICE instead. The ICE wouldn't shut down even when stopped because there was no battery to cover down time. The motor/generators were just acting as a CVT. There are cars out there with CVTs that are not considered hybrids for that feature alone.

                              When in the above state I was still driving in the manner that normally gets me 50 mpg. If I had just driven it without giving thought to conserving momentum, coasting to stops, blocked grill, raised tire pressures, it probably would have gotten closer to 30 mpg.

                              > My 2002, which I "just drive," can achieve
                              > about 50 mpg on a long freeway trip, especially if the top speed is
                              > limited to 65 mph or less. I usually get in the mid 40s in the summer
                              > and mid to high 30s in the winter with my usual commute and
                              > miscellaneous driving pattern in Minnesota. The only extras I practice
                              > are higher tire pressure, usually about 42/40 psi, and I avoid using the
                              > gas-brake-gas-brake way some people drive.
                              >
                              > My wife drives a 2008 Prius, and she has a different driving pattern.
                              > She typically gets more like high 40s to low 50s in the summer and low
                              > to mid 40s in the winter. She is even more a "just drive it" kind of
                              > driver. She doesn't like me to keep her tires at a higher pressure.
                              >
                              > Tell me what "normal ICE car" in the mid-size range gets 37 mpg in
                              > combined-type driving.

                              Maybe I'm old but I don't think of my 2001 as a mid-size car. It has about the same room inside as my 1980 Dodge Colt Hatchback which averaged 35mpg around town and 40 mpg on the highway with no special driving or vehicle set up. That was a 1.6L with a twin-stick (4 speed with hi/lo range). My Geo Metro with a slush box averaged 35 mpg. The same car with a 5-speed was good for well over 40 mpg. Hell, my mother's full size Buick gets 30 mpg.

                              > I think hypermiling is ridiculous for normal, day-to-day driving. I'm
                              > not going to speed up to 70 mph in a 60 mph zone and then allow myself
                              > to slow down to 50 mph, and repeat. Is there some other technique that
                              > is not as obnoxious?
                              >
                              > --CZ

                              I consider something as simple as staying far enough back from the car ahead so you don't have to brake every time the do to be hypermiling. Coasting to a stop at a red light shouldn't bother anyone. Having my grill taped up and tires pumped up doesn't affect anyone else. That's all part off hypermiling in my book.


                              --- In toyota-prius@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Richmond" <bsr3997@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I noticed after sending my reply that it went to you alone. Please post it to the list. Stupid default.

                              --CZ Posting for Bruce.
                            • ChrisZ
                              ... CZ: So, I still don t understand. I thought if some part of the hybrid system wasn t working--especially the traction battery--then the Prius was not
                              Message 14 of 21 , Mar 7, 2012
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                                > > --- In toyota-prius@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Richmond" <bsr3997@>
                                > > wrote:
                                >
                                > By that I meant lacking regen and battery assist. When the module went regen went with it. The battery wouldn't accept a charge so the friction brakes took over. When it tried to draw anything from the battery it would detect a problem and stop trying, using the ICE instead. The ICE wouldn't shut down even when stopped because there was no battery to cover down time. The motor/generators were just acting as a CVT. There are cars out there with CVTs that are not considered hybrids for that feature alone.
                                >
                                > When in the above state I was still driving in the manner that normally gets me 50 mpg. If I had just driven it without giving thought to conserving momentum, coasting to stops, blocked grill, raised tire pressures, it probably would have gotten closer to 30 mpg.
                                >

                                CZ: So, I still don't understand. I thought if some part of the hybrid system wasn't working--especially the traction battery--then the Prius was not drivable. **Experts on the list**, help me out on this. Aside from being not drivable, if you did drive it with the hybrid system knocked out, it would be much less efficient than if it had simply been built without the hybrid system. I wouldn't think that's a fair way of determining the added value of the hybrid system over a Prius with only a conventional drive train.

                                >
                                > Maybe I'm old but I don't think of my 2001 as a mid-size car. It has about the same room inside as my 1980 Dodge Colt Hatchback which averaged 35mpg around town and 40 mpg on the highway with no special driving or vehicle set up. That was a 1.6L with a twin-stick (4 speed with hi/lo range). My Geo Metro with a slush box averaged 35 mpg. The same car with a 5-speed was good for well over 40 mpg. Hell, my mother's full size Buick gets 30 mpg.
                                >

                                CZ: I was thinking more of the Gen2 Prius, which is rated a mid-size. Okay, I could see a 1.6L hatchback with a manual transmission getting around 35 mpg combined. A Geo Metro had a 1.0L or 1.3L (70 hp), so yeah, I could see that doing well. But of today's mid-size cars, very few will do something like 37 mpg combined, day-in-day-out.

                                When someone says, "My car gets XX mpg," I often wonder what they base that number on. One time when they took a long highway trip and calculated their miles per gallon? That doesn't really represent what they get normally on their usual driving pattern (what I consider more like "Combined"). One "around town" tank of gas calculation? A single calculation is not accurate, only an average over several tanks becomes an accurate average. Anyway, it's just my pet peeve.

                                >
                                > I consider something as simple as staying far enough back from the car ahead so you don't have to brake every time the do to be hypermiling. Coasting to a stop at a red light shouldn't bother anyone. Having my grill taped up and tires pumped up doesn't affect anyone else. That's all part off hypermiling in my book.
                                >

                                CZ: So, that's just like what I meant when I said that I avoid the gas-brake-gas-brake driving style. I didn't think of that as hypermiling. It's just common sense, smooth driving. I don't like the idea of mucking with the radiator's function. It was designed a certain way and I'd just as soon let it work the way it's supposed to.

                                --CZ
                              • Bruce Richmond
                                ... I do it in cool/cold weather only, when it is mostly 60 degrees or less. It gets things up to temp quicker but still allows plenty of cooling capacity if
                                Message 15 of 21 , Mar 7, 2012
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                                  --- In toyota-prius@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Quaranto" <dmq40@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > Add pressure to the tires, block the grill and modify you driving
                                  > slightly and 50 mpg should be no problem. Make an effort to hypermile
                                  > and 55 to 60 mpg is not that hard to achive.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Not aware of the grill blocking. Is this all year or only during the cooler
                                  > months?
                                  >
                                  > Anybody have any issues with this "fix" ?
                                  >

                                  I do it in cool/cold weather only, when it is mostly 60 degrees or less. It gets things up to temp quicker but still allows plenty of cooling capacity if needed. I now have a scangage and will be keeping an eye on coolant temp this spring to see just how long I can leave the blocking on. It may help a little with drag.
                                • Walter Lee
                                  Grill Blocking is not necessary for trips with sustained speed over 50mph and over 30 minutes   My Experience: Early 2011 March  I left my grill blocking
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Mar 8, 2012
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                                    Grill Blocking is not necessary for trips with sustained speed over 50mph and over 30 minutes
                                     
                                    My Experience: Early 2011 March  I left my grill blocking on while I was going on an interstate superhighway trip. My 2010 Prius III had both upper and lower grills blocked 100%. The driving temperature  was about 55 to 60 F degrees.  I also had a ScangaugeII to monitor the coolant temperature (FwT).  The FwT was reading below 180 before I got onto the superhighway but after about 30 minutes of driving at speeds from 55 mph to 65 mph the Prius coolant temperature was about 190 F.  Within 60 minutes, while the outside driving temperature was still about 60F the Prius coolant temperature had reached  200 F so  I pulled over and remove all of the grill blocking.  After removing the grill blocking the temperature of the coolant dropped slightly but stayed between 181F to 195 F for the next 10 hours of driving to my destination. On the way back, I didnot grill block and realized that at sustained superhighway speeds the Prius coolant
                                    temperatures achievec 181F within about 10 minutes with out grill blocking and that when driven longer than 30  minutes without grill blocking would reach a steady state coolant temperature of  about 193 F ( over 10 hours of steady superhighway speeds).
                                     
                                    Everything I've read and experienced (driving a 2010 Prius) suggest to me that there is no efficiency gain past having the ICE Fwt=181 F degrees. Hence, the Prius ICE seems to reach its most efficient operating state on the super highway very quickly without the need of grill blocking - the reasons most people don't get better mileage on the superhighway is probably because they are driving at speeds greater than 55 mph so without a good tail wind - aerodynamic drag/wind resistant decreases the Prius' fuel efficiency.
                                     
                                    I'm a special case: One of the reasons, I have grill blocking on most of the time on my Prius is that - I rarely achieve 50 mph for longer than 10 seconds - To achieve an overall  60.9 mpg on my Prius , I needed to have +65 mpg long trips to balance out the 12mpg-33mpg short trips that occasionally occur on the Prius. To get the +65 mpg on some trip, I had  to reduce the effects of air dynamic drag to increase my fuel efficiency - so that means travelling more between 25 mph to 45 mph with the average top speed most of the time to be about 35mph (This is why my MFD average speed is about 18 mph. In stop-and-go traffic driving environments  a driver's median-average  top speed can be estimated by their MFD avg speed x 2, the MFD avg speed is sort of like a Gaussian distribution mean velocity  ).   
                                     
                                    Extreme Hypermiling - the Fuel Efficiency Marathoner:  The Prius can get over +70 mpg  in non stop driving (without doing anything illegal like NiCE or dangerous like Drafting) but the speed needs to be  between 22 mph to 30 mph ( almost zero wind drag), the route needs to be almost nonstop where its allowed very slow acceleration rates (0-15mph in 15 seconds),  the ICE needs to be prewarmed up (FwT > 100F ), very good LLR tires need used plus they need to be overinflated to about 60psi (so rolling resistance/tire traction is very low), and the driving needs to be done in near perfect weather conditions.  This is great if you are driving in a MPG marathon - but its not practical for daily commuting.
                                     
                                     
                                    HTH
                                     
                                    Walter
                                    aka "HyperDrive 1" on Cleanmpg.com
                                    2010 Toyota Prius III
                                    Odometer =20114miles/ 60.9 mpg/ avg speed =18 mph 
                                     
                                      
                                     

                                    From: Bruce Richmond <bsr3997@...>
                                    To: toyota-prius@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2012 9:29 PM
                                    Subject: [toyota-prius] Re: Raising Gas Prices Have Some Considering...

                                     


                                    --- In toyota-prius@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Quaranto" <dmq40@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > Add pressure to the tires, block the grill and modify you driving
                                    > slightly and 50 mpg should be no problem. Make an effort to hypermile
                                    > and 55 to 60 mpg is not that hard to achive.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Not aware of the grill blocking. Is this all year or only during the cooler
                                    > months?
                                    >
                                    > Anybody have any issues with this "fix" ?
                                    >

                                    I do it in cool/cold weather only, when it is mostly 60 degrees or less. It gets things up to temp quicker but still allows plenty of cooling capacity if needed. I now have a scangage and will be keeping an eye on coolant temp this spring to see just how long I can leave the blocking on. It may help a little with drag.




                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • John C King
                                    Would I be wrong in thinking that Toyota like most manufacturers fit a thermostatic valve in their cooling systems - so even you block the radiators the
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Mar 8, 2012
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                                      Would I be wrong in thinking that Toyota like most manufacturers fit a
                                      thermostatic valve in their cooling systems - so even you block the
                                      radiators the starting temperature must be critical in the time it takes the
                                      ICE to warm up. So, an engine pre-heater is the most beneficial way of
                                      getting to operating temperature.



                                      LandJ



                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Peter Blackford
                                      Yes, all engines use a thermostatic valve, and... Even better, Prius is designed to automatically store (in a thermos bottle) 1 litre of hot coolant, which
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Mar 8, 2012
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                                        Yes, all engines use a thermostatic valve, and...

                                        Even better, Prius is designed to automatically store (in a thermos bottle)
                                        1 litre of hot coolant, which remains hot up to several days, and is
                                        reintroduced to circulation on re-start.

                                        On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 10:08 AM, John C King <jxkat4@...> wrote:

                                        > **
                                        >
                                        > Would I be wrong in thinking that Toyota like most manufacturers fit a
                                        > thermostatic valve in their cooling systems - so even you block the.....
                                        >


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Levi Smith
                                        The thermos is only on the 2004-2009 models. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Mar 8, 2012
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                                          The thermos is only on the 2004-2009 models.

                                          On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 12:23 PM, Peter Blackford <priuspete@...>wrote:

                                          > **
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Yes, all engines use a thermostatic valve, and...
                                          >
                                          > Even better, Prius is designed to automatically store (in a thermos bottle)
                                          > 1 litre of hot coolant, which remains hot up to several days, and is
                                          > reintroduced to circulation on re-start.
                                          >
                                          > On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 10:08 AM, John C King <jxkat4@...>
                                          > wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > **
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          > > Would I be wrong in thinking that Toyota like most manufacturers fit a
                                          > > thermostatic valve in their cooling systems - so even you block the.....
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Bruce Richmond
                                          Keep in mind that the entire drive system gives off heat in an uncontrolled manner, other than the thermostat. That includes the exhaust manifold, which
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Mar 8, 2012
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                                            Keep in mind that the entire drive system gives off heat in an uncontrolled manner, other than the thermostat. That includes the exhaust manifold, which affects the temperature of the catalytic converter. If things cool down too much it will run the ICE to warm them back up. The grill blocking gets things up to temp quicker and helps it stay there.

                                            I considered getting a block heater but with grill blocking the engine is pretty much up to temp in five miles. The electricity costs almost as much as the fuel I would save. At best it would take a long time to recover the initial cost of the heater. YMMV

                                            Bruce


                                            --- In toyota-prius@yahoogroups.com, "John C King " <jxkat4@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Would I be wrong in thinking that Toyota like most manufacturers fit a
                                            > thermostatic valve in their cooling systems - so even you block the
                                            > radiators the starting temperature must be critical in the time it takes the
                                            > ICE to warm up. So, an engine pre-heater is the most beneficial way of
                                            > getting to operating temperature.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > LandJ
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
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