Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Starter Battery Substitute?

Expand Messages
  • Ed
    It s time for me to get a new starter battery for my 2007 Prius and I m looking hard at this Lithium LiFePO4 battery. It s supposed to be rated as PBEq
    Message 1 of 16 , Jan 3, 2012
    • 0 Attachment
      It's time for me to get a new starter battery for my 2007 Prius and I'm looking hard at this Lithium LiFePO4 battery. It's supposed to be rated as PBEq meaning its a drop in replacement for a lead starter battery.

      http://www.batterystuff.com/powersports-batteries/LFX09A2-BS12.html

      Does anyone know anything about these?

      Thanks

      Ed
    • Peter Blackford
      Must be Karma - found this same company just recently myself!  They seem good to deal with, and the battery I ordered yesterday (always exploring, as you
      Message 2 of 16 , Jan 4, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        Must be Karma - found this same company just recently myself!  They
        seem good to deal with, and the battery I ordered yesterday (always
        exploring, as you are...) was shipped the same day.

        I ordered http://www.scorpionbattery.com/powersports-batteries/ytx16bhl.html
         for my 2001 NHW-11, which originally came with a smaller-capacity
        battery than your car.

        I'd be concerned about the VERY low 9 AH rating of the LFX09A2.  This
        (AH) is the number that determines how long you can leave the car
        'parked up' (as the Brits say) without losing too much of the total
        charge to parasitic drains which are present in all cars these days.
        Never mind (for Prius use) any CCA number, but DO pay attention to &
        compare the AH rating.  I think you'll find your OE 12V battery was
        about 24.  Mine was more like 16 (IIRC), so the 19 I'm getting is a
        bit more.

        There may well be a Li battery with that capacity, but you may not
        want to pay for it...

        To those who have heard me wax poetic about the Odyssey, I still like
        them but fear that the one in my car now (a PC680) was 'somewhat
        compromised' by being stored unattended for about 3 years before
        installation. So, as it's getting weaker now, I decided to try the
        larger and less costly Scorpion (YUASA), which even has the M6
        terminals for ease of installation. After all, if it's good enough to
        crank a big Harley, it has to be plenty good for a Prius!

        Will keep y'all posted,

        Pete

        On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 11:10 PM, Ed <edcastrovalley@...> wrote:
        >
        > It's time for me to get a new starter battery for my 2007 Prius and I'm looking hard at this Lithium LiFePO4 battery. It's supposed to be rated as PBEq meaning its a drop in replacement for a lead starter battery.
        ...
      • David Kelly
        ... Why is it time ? ... First, you should know this is NOT the starter battery for your Prius. It starts off the high voltage traction battery. The 12V
        Message 3 of 16 , Jan 4, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          On Jan 3, 2012, at 10:10 PM, Ed wrote:

          > It's time for me to get a new starter battery for my 2007 Prius

          Why "is it time"?

          > and I'm looking hard at this Lithium LiFePO4 battery. It's supposed to be rated as PBEq meaning its a drop in replacement for a lead starter battery.
          >
          > http://www.batterystuff.com/powersports-batteries/LFX09A2-BS12.html
          >
          > Does anyone know anything about these?

          First, you should know this is NOT the starter battery for your Prius. It starts off the high voltage traction battery. The 12V battery only serves to boot the computers, lights, and other relatively low power stuff (such as the power button) that needs to be powered when the car is "off". Also powers the brakes even when the car is off which is about 30A for as long as your foot is on the brake.

          Shorai is one of the first brands to jump on marketing LiFePO4 to the US. I have an 8AH PbEq Ballistic brand LiFePO4 in my dirtbike where it has to turn the starter (unlike the Prius). For some dirtbike situations the LiFePO4 battery is an upgrade, in others it is a downgrade. Let the battery soak in the cold overnight below freezing and it probably will not crank the 450cc 4-stroke single first try. But trying causes currents through the battery's internal resistance to heat the battery which stimulates the chemistry and about the 3rd try the battery is warm enough to start the bike.

          Study the dimensions carefully. I think the battery that will ship will be smaller than that picture.

          http://www.ballisticparts.com/ shows my "4 Cell EVO2" battery as being 60mm (2-3/8") x 60mm (2-3/8") x 103mm (4-1/16").

          If my 2007 Prius needed a new 12V battery then I'd consider these:
          http://www.batterystuff.com/batteries/upc-telecom/U1HR1500S.html

          Also shop for Miata batteries. Widely available. Maintenance free AGM just as your OE Prius battery.

          As with most any battery you will have to shim the battery compartment to hold the smaller battery and probably adapt the Prius power cables.

          --
          David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@...
          ============================================================
          Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad.





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Lee Hart
          ... Beware: The weight (1.23 lbs) tells me this is a scam battery, with a negligible amphour capacity. There s no way to get 12v at 9ah from 1.23 lbs worth
          Message 4 of 16 , Jan 4, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            On 1/3/2012 10:10 PM, Ed wrote:
            > It's time for me to get a new starter battery for my 2007 Prius and
            > I'm looking hard at this Lithium LiFePO4 battery. It's supposed to
            > be rated as PBEq meaning its a drop in replacement for a lead
            > starter battery.
            >
            > http://www.batterystuff.com/powersports-batteries/LFX09A2-BS12.html
            >
            > Does anyone know anything about these?

            Beware: The weight (1.23 lbs) tells me this is a "scam" battery, with a
            negligible amphour capacity. There's no way to get 12v at 9ah from 1.23
            lbs worth of LiFePO4 cells. At best, it's probably half this capacity.

            You can get away with a battery having a negligible amphour capacity to
            start an ICE, because you only need a few seconds of high current. 10
            seconds at 360 amps is only 1 amphour. That's why folks can still use
            decade-old lead-acids in a car; their amphour capacity is gone, but they
            can still provide a few seconds of current to start it.

            But the Prius doesn't use its 12v battery for starting. Instead, the
            usual problem is that the battery goes dead when the car is not driven,
            when all the parasitic 12v loads run it dead.

            If I remember correctly, the stock lead-acid battery in the Prius is
            around 28ah for the original 2001-2003, and 36ah for the later models.
            The stock battery goes dead if you leave the car parked for more than
            about 3 weeks. This little lithium battery would be dead in just a few days.

            Do you remember the old trick of selling "special ultralight racing
            batteries" for cars, motorcycles, R/C models, etc? It was a larger
            battery case, filled with cardboard and the next size smaller battery.
            Sold at a high price, too!

            --
            Humanity is acquiring all the right technology for all the wrong reasons.
            -- R. Buckminster Fuller
            --
            Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart at earthlink.net
          • Michael Welch
            I am a bit conservative when it comes to these kinds of things. I am not at all interested in being an early adapter of technology when the original technology
            Message 5 of 16 , Jan 4, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              I am a bit conservative when it comes to these kinds of things. I am not at all interested in being an early adapter of technology when the original technology is just fine. Risky business:

              Note that this is a much smaller capacity than the original battery, and so you will be in danger of draining it more quickly than the original. For example, leaving a dome light on overnight might completely drain the battery.

              Second, it's probably not the case but the charge/discharge characteristics might not be compatible with your car's charging system. (Manufacturer's claim of "drop-in replacement" not withstanding.) Seems like a risk to me.

              Third, I don't trust the claims. Most lithium batteries require a cell-level battery management system.

              Finally, there is an excellent infrastructure for the full recycling of lead-acid batteries which does not yet exist for other technologies. What are you going to do with it when it needs to be replaced?

              It seems to me that the only advantage of this battery is weight, which is not an issue with a accessory or starter battery in a car. For motorcycles and for larger traction batteries yes, but not your Prius's accessory batt.

              Ed wrote at 08:10 PM 1/3/2012:

              >It's time for me to get a new starter battery for my 2007 Prius and I'm looking hard at this Lithium LiFePO4 battery. It's supposed to be rated as PBEq meaning its a drop in replacement for a lead starter battery.
            • David Kelly
              ... Its not a scam, they say outright its PBEq . But its exactly the same sort of fiction as the EPA s eMPG. The EPA would *never* scam, would they? Basically
              Message 6 of 16 , Jan 4, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                On Jan 4, 2012, at 1:55 PM, Lee Hart wrote:

                > On 1/3/2012 10:10 PM, Ed wrote:
                >> It's time for me to get a new starter battery for my 2007 Prius and
                >> I'm looking hard at this Lithium LiFePO4 battery. It's supposed to
                >> be rated as PBEq meaning its a drop in replacement for a lead
                >> starter battery.
                >>
                >> http://www.batterystuff.com/powersports-batteries/LFX09A2-BS12.html
                >>
                >> Does anyone know anything about these?
                >
                > Beware: The weight (1.23 lbs) tells me this is a "scam" battery, with a
                > negligible amphour capacity. There's no way to get 12v at 9ah from 1.23
                > lbs worth of LiFePO4 cells. At best, it's probably half this capacity.

                Its not a scam, they say outright its "PBEq". But its exactly the same sort of fiction as the EPA's eMPG. The EPA would *never* scam, would they?

                Basically the X-AH PBEq rating means this battery will start an engine similar to that of a conventional lead-acid battery of X-AH.

                The 8 or 9 PHEq rated LiFePO4 batteries are typically built using 26650 cells, often from A123. In conventional terms these are 2.3 AH cells. Know the fine print on the Ballistic battery says as much. And the MSDS specifically lists A123 as the cell manufacturer.

                My Ballistic battery has a special access connector, and Ballistic offers a special charger that when connected to this connector can individually charge and balance the cells in the battery. This charger is $70 or $80. Yes, I have one. No, I don't think the 4 cell 8 or 9 PBEq AH battery is sufficient for my Prius. I don't care enough to open the trunk of my Prius to try it, much less dig under the trim to reach my factory-installed battery.

                --
                David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@...
                ============================================================
                Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad.
              • Felix
                ... Why high-rate? U1 is a common electric (power) wheelchair battery size, 1 step below 22NF which is ~55AH. Any U1 or 22NF AGM would be fine for Prius use, I
                Message 7 of 16 , Jan 5, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In toyota-prius@yahoogroups.com, David Kelly <dkelly@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > If my 2007 Prius needed a new 12V battery then I'd consider these:
                  > http://www.batterystuff.com/batteries/upc-telecom/U1HR1500S.html
                  >

                  Why high-rate? U1 is a common electric (power) wheelchair battery size, 1 step below 22NF which is ~55AH.

                  Any U1 or 22NF AGM would be fine for Prius use, I would only spring for high-rate if I had a large power inverter that I planned on using with the car not READY.

                  For that matter if you can handle only having ~18AH of capacity just buy a cheap jump-start pack and pull the battery from it.
                • David Kelly
                  ... I dont *recommend* that battery, only I would *consider* it. Primarily because at that site (which is where the O.P. started) that was the first suitable
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jan 5, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    On Jan 5, 2012, at 3:46 AM, Felix wrote:

                    > --- In toyota-prius@yahoogroups.com, David Kelly <dkelly@...> wrote:
                    >>
                    >> If my 2007 Prius needed a new 12V battery then I'd consider these:
                    >> http://www.batterystuff.com/batteries/upc-telecom/U1HR1500S.html
                    >
                    > Why high-rate? U1 is a common electric (power) wheelchair battery size, 1 step below 22NF which is ~55AH.
                    >
                    > Any U1 or 22NF AGM would be fine for Prius use, I would only spring for high-rate if I had a large power inverter that I planned on using with the car not READY.
                    >
                    > For that matter if you can handle only having ~18AH of capacity just buy a cheap jump-start pack and pull the battery from it.

                    I dont *recommend* that battery, only I would *consider* it. Primarily because at that site (which is where the O.P. started) that was the first suitable battery I found with vent nipples.

                    One saving grace of the (IMHO) over-hyped Optima battery is that http://www.optimabatteries.com/product_support/faqs.php says:
                    > Trunk/Interior Mounting – If your battery is mounted inside the passenger compartment or trunk (common in many European makes), the battery must be vented to the outside of the vehicle. OPTIMA group 27, 51, 78, 34C, and 31 batteries all have ports for connecting a vent hose.



                    --
                    David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@...
                    ========================================================================
                    Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad.
                  • Felix
                    ... I am amend my previous statement, a 22NF won t fit an unmodified NHW20, my MK 22NF gel cell for a wheelchair is 9Lx9Hx5.5W with the terminals. Hobbit
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jan 6, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- In toyota-prius@yahoogroups.com, David Kelly <dkelly@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I dont *recommend* that battery, only I would *consider* it. Primarily because at that site (which is where the O.P. started) that was the first suitable battery I found with vent nipples.
                      >
                      > One saving grace of the (IMHO) over-hyped Optima battery is that http://www.optimabatteries.com/product_support/faqs.php says:
                      > > Trunk/Interior Mounting – If your battery is mounted inside the passenger compartment or trunk (common in many European makes), the battery must be vented to the outside of the vehicle. OPTIMA group 27, 51, 78, 34C, and 31 batteries all have ports for connecting a vent hose.
                      >
                      >
                      >

                      I am amend my previous statement, a 22NF won't fit an unmodified NHW20, my MK 22NF gel cell for a wheelchair is 9Lx9Hx5.5W with the terminals. Hobbit specifies the max as 9Lx7.875Hx5.125W. Close but no cigar. Also with the posts closest to you the positive is on the right instead of on the left.
                    • Ed
                      ... My starter battery is getting weak and I had to jump start the car a couple of times. In the meantime I turned off the magic key feature that allows me
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jan 6, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment
                        >
                        > Why "is it time"?

                        My starter battery is getting weak and I had to jump start the car a couple of times. In the meantime I turned off the "magic key" feature that allows me to unlock the doors and start the engine with the fob in my pocket. It's inconvenient but it's buying me some time to find a new battery. :+)
                      • David Kelly
                        ... Thank-you. I asked because so many people get frightened into replacing batteries (and changing oil) that are a total waste of time, money, and resources.
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jan 6, 2012
                        • 0 Attachment
                          On Jan 6, 2012, at 6:39 PM, Ed wrote:

                          >> Why "is it time"?
                          >
                          > My starter battery is getting weak and I had to jump start the car a couple of times. In the meantime I turned off the "magic key" feature that allows me to unlock the doors and start the engine with the fob in my pocket. It's inconvenient but it's buying me some time to find a new battery. :+)

                          Thank-you. I asked because so many people get frightened into replacing batteries (and changing oil) that are a total waste of time, money, and resources.

                          Then again I go off and ask such things and this morning got a red triangle on my 2007 and the car seemed to be locked up half-way into booting. Couldn't turn it off. Couldn't put it in gear. Stepped out and tried to open the hatch but it was locked. Eventually the MFD started doing something and asked me to apply the parking brake because the transmission parking pawl (or to that effect) was stuck. Parking brake didn't help but eventually I was able to turn the car off. On reboot all was fine.

                          No dim lights. Door locks work just fine. Previous days were colder than this morning. We'll wait and see what happens.

                          --
                          David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@...
                          ========================================================================
                          Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad.
                        • Ed
                          ... I had something very similar to that happen in my care a while ago. It s a little scary until it sorts itself out. As for the battery, I m thinking of
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jan 6, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            > Then again I go off and ask such things and this morning got a red triangle on my 2007 and the car seemed to be locked up half-way into booting. Couldn't turn it off. Couldn't put it in gear. Stepped out and tried to open the hatch but it was locked. Eventually the MFD started doing something and asked me to apply the parking brake because the transmission parking pawl (or to that effect) was stuck. Parking brake didn't help but eventually I was able to turn the car off. On reboot all was fine.

                            I had something very similar to that happen in my care a while ago. It's a little scary until it sorts itself out.

                            As for the battery, I'm thinking of going with the Prius version of the Optima yellow top Rayn W mentioned in his post. Price-wise the cost would be about the same (as the correct size LiFePO4 battery) and I wouldn't need to modify anything.
                          • David Kelly
                            ... I think it will cost a lot less than a correct size LiFePO4 battery because such correct size is much bigger than LiFePO4 vendors would have you
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jan 7, 2012
                            • 0 Attachment
                              On Jan 7, 2012, at 12:25 AM, Ed wrote:

                              > As for the battery, I'm thinking of going with the Prius version of the Optima yellow top Rayn W mentioned in his post. Price-wise the cost would be about the same (as the correct size LiFePO4 battery) and I wouldn't need to modify anything.

                              I think it will cost a lot less than a "correct size LiFePO4 battery" because such "correct size" is much bigger than LiFePO4 vendors would have you believe. LiFePO4 vendors use a fictional PBEq amp-hour rating based on their claim that a lead-acid battery must not be discharged more than 30% to effectively start an engine while a "same PBEq" LiFePO4 can start at 90% discharge. So they claim PBEq of 3 times the actual amp-hour capacity. The Prius point here is the focus on the ability to run a starter which the Prius doesn't have. Your 2007 has a real 36 amp-hour battery while a LiFePO4 36 AH PBEq will be only 12 AH, 24 short of the very stuff the Prius needs/wants.

                              The 12V Prius not-starter battery runs things like the computers, radio, lights, and brakes. It needs real amp-hour capacity not fake starter-based PBEq capacity.

                              --
                              David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@...
                              ========================================================================
                              Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad.
                            • Dan
                              Many of us have replaced the 12 v aux battery with the yellow top optima from elearnaid.com for under $200 shipped. We have all been very happy with it, and
                              Message 14 of 16 , Jan 8, 2012
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Many of us have replaced the 12 v aux battery with the yellow top optima
                                from elearnaid.com for under $200 shipped.

                                We have all been very happy with it, and yellow top provides a lot more
                                reserve capacity then the OEM battery.

                                He includes a conversion kit from Japan connectors to US connectors for $15.
                                It is hardly more work to put in the conversion kit then just change out
                                the battery.

                                It would take about 30 minutes to install, (same to replace the
                                battery), requires a 10mm wrench, a 1/4" drive 10mm socket and a couple
                                of extensions of different lengths.

                                D
                              • Don Bergman
                                Ed, What year Prius are we looking at? Don Bergman
                                Message 15 of 16 , Jan 8, 2012
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Ed,

                                  What year Prius are we looking at?

                                  Don Bergman

                                  >> Why "is it time"?
                                  >
                                  > My starter battery is getting weak and I had to jump start the car a
                                  > couple of times. In the meantime I turned off the "magic key" feature
                                  > that allows me to unlock the doors and start the engine with the fob in my
                                  > pocket. It's inconvenient but it's buying me some time to find a new
                                  > battery. :+)
                                  >
                                • Peter Blackford
                                  After installing the 19AH hYTX16BHL battery from Scorpion (aka BatteryStuff.com), I realize that the 30AH unit hYIX30HL would probably be an even better
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Jan 8, 2012
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    After installing the 19AH hYTX16BHL battery from Scorpion (aka
                                    BatteryStuff.com),
                                    I realize that the 30AH unit hYIX30HL would probably be an even better
                                    choice.
                                    The larger-capacity unit will easily fit in the NHW-11 Prius, still needing
                                    a "booster seat" (piece of 2x4 will do) to raise it enough for secure
                                    mounting. Price difference is small - and all batteries from these guys
                                    are shipped free via Priority Mail (with tracking). 16AH was $94, and the
                                    30AH is $110
                                    Still about half the price of some alternatives, great capacity, and have
                                    the preferred M6 (lead-free) terminals.
                                    Will keep y'all posted as to how the smaller one fares, but I'll probably
                                    spend the few bux more in (hopefully) 8 years or so when it needs a new one.
                                    Pete '01


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.