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Re: [toyota-prius] Prius Tyres

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  • David Kelly
    ... Stan s conclusions are simplistic and fraught with error. An LRR tire is not more likely to have a blowout on the road. An LRR tire s sidewall is not
    Message 1 of 14 , May 31, 2010
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      On May 30, 2010, at 1:36 PM, Stan wrote:

      > Hi! Stan in San Diego. The original tires on the Prius are designated LRR (Low Rolling Resistance). You can buy LRR tires but they have very thin sidewalls to accomplish the fuel savings. They are more vulnerable to impact damage and blow-outs.
      > I don't know about extended life but my original tires on my 2005 lasted just 20k. I have 100k total and I'm on my third set of Michelin Primacys, a premium tire with better handling, life and sidewall thickness than the originals which because of the thin sidewall, handled poorly. I get them at Discount Tire because of their unique guarantee, and they run about $600 total installed with the guarantee. Two of these tires were replaced at no charge because of road hazards that were non-repairable.
      > So your reduced mileage is a consequence of the thicker, stiffer sidewall. You will enjoy better tire life, impact resistance and much better handling. I probably lost 3-4 MPG with the Primacys, but the ride is worth it.


      Stan's conclusions are simplistic and fraught with error. An LRR tire is not more likely to have a blowout on the road. An LRR tire's sidewall is not necessarily any thinner than any other tire.

      Sadly the relative lack of tread life is a trait of LRR tires. The rubber used to form the tread is formulated to favor flexing without generating as much internal friction which is achieved at the expense of wear resistance. Contrary to what Stan says thicker sidewalls would result in less tire flex and therefore less rolling resistance, effectively exactly what happens when one increases the inflation pressure.

      As for JODI & DAVID THOMAS's statement:
      > The original Bridgestones on my 2007 Prius were designated "extended life" supposedly designed for 100K miles, 6 years! LOL! At 34K they were past being repaired before reaching the age of 3 years.

      I ask, "Who the heck told that fib and why do you believe it without doing 2 minutes of research?"

      For you to have a 2007 Prius with Bridgestone tires as OE (Original Equipment, which is a much stricter statement than the very broad OEM, Original Equipment *Manufacturer*) it must be a Touring Edition if it is a North America version. A few seconds of research indicates this tire is UTQC 260 A A. To get 34k miles out of a 260 tire is simply fantastic, you must be very easy on your tires.

      http://www.tirerack.com/tires/TireSearchResults.jsp?tireIndex=0&autoMake=Toyota&autoYear=2007&autoModel=Prius+Touring&autoModClar=&width=195/&ratio=55&diameter=16&sortCode=44605&skipOver=true&minSpeedRating=S&minLoadRating=S&tab=OE&filterType=oe

      All tires of all sizes and models made by Bridgestone are OEM for the Prius Turing because the original tires were also manufactured by Bridgestone. Only the Bridgestone Turanza EL400-02 in 195/55R16 is OE for the Touring. Just as only the Goodyear Integrity in 185/65R15 is OE for the not-Touring Prius and all tires by Goodyear are OEM including the Wrangler truck tires.

      --
      David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@...
      ========================================================================
      Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad.
    • Stan
      Thicker sidewalls have less rolling resistance? Thicker sidewalls have the same puncture resistance? (Everything else stays the same). Can I sell you a bridge
      Message 2 of 14 , May 31, 2010
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        Thicker sidewalls have less rolling resistance? Thicker sidewalls have the
        same puncture resistance? (Everything else stays the same). Can I sell you a
        bridge somewhere?


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "David Kelly" <dkelly@...>
        To: "Stan" <stanathomesell@...>
        Cc: "JODI & DAVID THOMAS" <davidandjodi@...>; "Toyota Prius"
        <toyota-prius@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, May 31, 2010 8:24 PM
        Subject: Re: [toyota-prius] Prius Tyres



        On May 30, 2010, at 1:36 PM, Stan wrote:

        > Hi! Stan in San Diego. The original tires on the Prius are designated LRR
        > (Low Rolling Resistance). You can buy LRR tires but they have very thin
        > sidewalls to accomplish the fuel savings. They are more vulnerable to
        > impact damage and blow-outs.
        > I don't know about extended life but my original tires on my 2005 lasted
        > just 20k. I have 100k total and I'm on my third set of Michelin Primacys,
        > a premium tire with better handling, life and sidewall thickness than the
        > originals which because of the thin sidewall, handled poorly. I get them
        > at Discount Tire because of their unique guarantee, and they run about
        > $600 total installed with the guarantee. Two of these tires were replaced
        > at no charge because of road hazards that were non-repairable.
        > So your reduced mileage is a consequence of the thicker, stiffer sidewall.
        > You will enjoy better tire life, impact resistance and much better
        > handling. I probably lost 3-4 MPG with the Primacys, but the ride is worth
        > it.


        Stan's conclusions are simplistic and fraught with error. An LRR tire is not
        more likely to have a blowout on the road. An LRR tire's sidewall is not
        necessarily any thinner than any other tire.

        Sadly the relative lack of tread life is a trait of LRR tires. The rubber
        used to form the tread is formulated to favor flexing without generating as
        much internal friction which is achieved at the expense of wear resistance.
        Contrary to what Stan says thicker sidewalls would result in less tire flex
        and therefore less rolling resistance, effectively exactly what happens when
        one increases the inflation pressure.

        As for JODI & DAVID THOMAS's statement:
        > The original Bridgestones on my 2007 Prius were designated "extended life"
        > supposedly designed for 100K miles, 6 years! LOL! At 34K they were past
        > being repaired before reaching the age of 3 years.

        I ask, "Who the heck told that fib and why do you believe it without doing 2
        minutes of research?"

        For you to have a 2007 Prius with Bridgestone tires as OE (Original
        Equipment, which is a much stricter statement than the very broad OEM,
        Original Equipment *Manufacturer*) it must be a Touring Edition if it is a
        North America version. A few seconds of research indicates this tire is UTQC
        260 A A. To get 34k miles out of a 260 tire is simply fantastic, you must be
        very easy on your tires.

        http://www.tirerack.com/tires/TireSearchResults.jsp?tireIndex=0&autoMake=Toyota&autoYear=2007&autoModel=Prius+Touring&autoModClar=&width=195/&ratio=55&diameter=16&sortCode=44605&skipOver=true&minSpeedRating=S&minLoadRating=S&tab=OE&filterType=oe

        All tires of all sizes and models made by Bridgestone are OEM for the Prius
        Turing because the original tires were also manufactured by Bridgestone.
        Only the Bridgestone Turanza EL400-02 in 195/55R16 is OE for the Touring.
        Just as only the Goodyear Integrity in 185/65R15 is OE for the not-Touring
        Prius and all tires by Goodyear are OEM including the Wrangler truck tires.

        --
        David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@...
        ========================================================================
        Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad.
      • Walter Lee
        The 2010 July issue of Consumer Reports compares  Low Rolling Resistant Tires  Michelin Energy Savers is one of the recommmended ones... also see  
        Message 3 of 14 , Jun 2, 2010
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          The 2010 July issue of Consumer Reports compares  Low Rolling Resistant Tires 
          Michelin Energy Savers is one of the recommmended ones... also see
           
          http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/tires-auto-parts/tires/low-rolling-resistance-tires-8-06/overview/0608_low-rolling-resistance-tires_ov.htm
           
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-rolling_resistance_tires
           
           
           

          --- On Sun, 5/30/10, Paul Lawler <plawler@...> wrote:


          From: Paul Lawler <plawler@...>
          Subject: Re: [toyota-prius] Prius Tyres
          To: "Toyota Prius" <toyota-prius@yahoogroups.com>
          Date: Sunday, May 30, 2010, 2:58 PM


          On May 28, 2010, at 10:56 , JODI & DAVID THOMAS wrote:

          > I replaced the Potenzas with Turanzas, and found a 10-12 % decline in fuel mileage over the next several thousand miles….

          I had to replace a couple of mine away from home (so I did all four… silly me), so I had to take what they had in a Prius size, which were Uniroyal Tiger Paws (Uniroyal merged with B.F. Goodrich in the 1985 and bought out by Michelin in 1990). I also am seeing my mileage drop from 56-57 mpg to barely over 50 mpg.

          ------------------------------------

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          Yahoo! Groups Links








          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Levi Smith
          Huh? I m looking at LRR tires for the Prius and Short of a couple of winter tires without ratings, the other TEN tires all have ratings of 400 or better, 2 of
          Message 4 of 14 , Jun 2, 2010
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            Huh? I'm looking at LRR tires for the Prius and Short of a couple of winter
            tires without ratings, the other TEN tires all have ratings of 400 or
            better, 2 of them are in the 600's and 2 of them are 800... I wouldn't
            consider that a lack of tread life...

            Levi

            On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 11:24 PM, David Kelly <dkelly@...> wrote:

            > Sadly the relative lack of tread life is a trait of LRR tires. The rubber
            > used to form the tread is formulated to favor flexing without generating as
            > much internal friction which is achieved at the expense of wear resistance.
            > Contrary to what Stan says thicker sidewalls would result in less tire flex
            > and therefore less rolling resistance, effectively exactly what happens when
            > one increases the inflation pressure.
            >
            > --
            > David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@... <dkelly%40HiWAAY.net>
            > ========================================================================
            > Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad.
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Levi Smith
            I d buy that they have less rolling resistance of the increased thickness makes them stronger/stiffer, therefore they are not flexing and wasting as much
            Message 5 of 14 , Jun 2, 2010
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              I'd buy that they have less rolling resistance of the increased thickness
              makes them stronger/stiffer, therefore they are not flexing and wasting as
              much energy...

              Levi

              On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 11:47 PM, Stan <stanathomesell@...> wrote:

              >
              >
              > Thicker sidewalls have less rolling resistance? Thicker sidewalls have the
              > same puncture resistance? (Everything else stays the same). Can I sell you
              > a
              > bridge somewhere?
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • JODI & DAVID THOMAS
              The paperwork guranteeing those tyres for 6 yr 100K miles is temporarily mislaid (following a flood at my house) but the extended life tyres sticker on the
              Message 6 of 14 , Jun 4, 2010
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                The paperwork "guranteeing" those tyres for 6 yr 100K miles is temporarily mislaid (following a flood at my house) but the "extended life tyres" sticker on the doorpost, along with the other stickers placed there (at the factory?) is certainly there. I had already discovered that the warranty would pay roughly half the tyre cost after one year, and after two about one-quarter.
                 
                But the 2007 Prius Touring clearly features extended life tyres in the literature






                 
                 





                Old Folks at Home

                Are we not drawn onward, we few, drawn onward to new era?

                --- On Mon, 5/31/10, David Kelly <dkelly@...> wrote:


                From: David Kelly <dkelly@...>
                Subject: Re: [toyota-prius] Prius Tyres
                To: "Stan" <stanathomesell@...>
                Cc: "JODI & DAVID THOMAS" <davidandjodi@...>, "Toyota Prius" <toyota-prius@yahoogroups.com>
                Date: Monday, May 31, 2010, 10:24 PM



                On May 30, 2010, at 1:36 PM, Stan wrote:

                > Hi! Stan in San Diego. The original tires on the Prius are designated LRR (Low Rolling Resistance). You can buy LRR tires but they have very thin sidewalls to accomplish the fuel savings. They are more vulnerable to impact damage and blow-outs.
                > I don't know about extended life but my original tires on my 2005 lasted just 20k. I have 100k total and I'm on my third set of Michelin Primacys, a premium tire with better handling, life and sidewall thickness than the originals which because of the thin sidewall, handled poorly. I get them at Discount Tire because of their unique guarantee, and they run about $600 total installed with the guarantee. Two of these tires were replaced at no charge because of road hazards that were non-repairable.
                > So your reduced mileage is a consequence of the thicker, stiffer sidewall. You will enjoy better tire life, impact resistance and much better handling. I probably lost 3-4 MPG with the Primacys, but the ride is worth it.


                Stan's conclusions are simplistic and fraught with error. An LRR tire is not more likely to have a blowout on the road. An LRR tire's sidewall is not necessarily any thinner than any other tire.

                Sadly the relative lack of tread life is a trait of LRR tires. The rubber used to form the tread is formulated to favor flexing without generating as much internal friction which is achieved at the expense of wear resistance. Contrary to what Stan says thicker sidewalls would result in less tire flex and therefore less rolling resistance, effectively exactly what happens when one increases the inflation pressure.

                As for JODI & DAVID THOMAS's statement:
                > The original Bridgestones on my 2007 Prius were designated "extended life" supposedly designed for 100K miles, 6 years! LOL! At 34K they were past being repaired before reaching the age of 3 years.

                I ask, "Who the heck told that fib and why do you believe it without doing 2 minutes of research?"

                For you to have a 2007 Prius with Bridgestone tires as OE (Original Equipment, which is a much stricter statement than the very broad OEM, Original Equipment *Manufacturer*) it must be a Touring Edition if it is a North America version. A few seconds of research indicates this tire is UTQC 260 A A. To get 34k miles out of a 260 tire is simply fantastic, you must be very easy on your tires.

                http://www.tirerack.com/tires/TireSearchResults.jsp?tireIndex=0&autoMake=Toyota&autoYear=2007&autoModel=Prius+Touring&autoModClar=&width=195/&ratio=55&diameter=16&sortCode=44605&skipOver=true&minSpeedRating=S&minLoadRating=S&tab=OE&filterType=oe

                All tires of all sizes and models made by Bridgestone are OEM for the Prius Turing because the original tires were also manufactured by Bridgestone. Only the Bridgestone Turanza EL400-02 in 195/55R16 is OE for the Touring. Just as only the Goodyear Integrity in 185/65R15 is OE for the not-Touring Prius and all tires by Goodyear are OEM including the Wrangler truck tires.

                --
                David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@...
                ========================================================================
                Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad.





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • David Kelly
                ... Is this literature available online for others to view? I think your extended life tyres was not a feature of the Prius Touring Edition but of your
                Message 7 of 14 , Jun 5, 2010
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                  On Jun 4, 2010, at 6:55 PM, JODI & DAVID THOMAS wrote:

                  > The paperwork "guranteeing" those tyres for 6 yr 100K miles is temporarily mislaid (following a flood at my house) but the "extended life tyres" sticker on the doorpost, along with the other stickers placed there (at the factory?) is certainly there. I had already discovered that the warranty would pay roughly half the tyre cost after one year, and after two about one-quarter.
                  >
                  > But the 2007 Prius Touring clearly features extended life tyres in the literature


                  Is this literature available online for others to view?

                  I think your "extended life tyres" was not a feature of the Prius Touring Edition but of your dealer's sales department. Schemes such as "lifetime tires" are common, as is a lifetime warranty on the engine and driveline. Reading the fine print usually shows these schemes to be worthless to most consumers. A common condition is that you have to perform all maintenance with the dealer's service department and can not refuse any "recommended" service no matter the dealer may insist on oil changes every 3,000/3 months and Toyota specifies much longer intervals than that. Refuse any service no matter how outlandish, your "warranty" is voided.

                  As for exceptional tire warranties, most have a condition that you pay the dealer to rotate and balance the tires every 5,000 miles for only $50/pop. Had you shopped the purchase of your tires many tire dealers offer this service for free with new tires. Doesn't take long to pay more for "free" tires than to have bought them outright.

                  Back to the matter at hand, Prius Touring tires are UTQC 260 and 30,000 miles is more than one should hope for. UTQC 260 is printed right on the tire sidewall.


                  --
                  David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@...
                  ========================================================================
                  Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad.
                • Dan
                  in the U.S. because of this kind of fraud the U.S. Government passed a law that says the dealer MUST PROVE that the modifications or lack of maintenance or
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jun 7, 2010
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                    in the U.S. because of this kind of "fraud" the U.S. Government passed a law that says the dealer MUST PROVE that the modifications or lack of maintenance or installation of aftermarket parts caused the failure.

                    In other words, not changing the oil every 3000 miles does not void the warranty if you did it every 4000 UNLESS it can be proved conclusively that caused the failure. Not changing tranny fluid as demanded by the dealer does not void the engine warrenty.

                    My jeep friends run into this all the time. They lift and modify thier new jeeps and the dealers try to void the warranty. But that does not cause the failure so the failure is covered by warrenty.

                    One of the Asian manufacturers tried to say taking a 4wd off road voided the warranty, but the guy suing them showed the TV commercials showing his model vehicles off road.... he won.

                    I also learned that some of the extended range tires do not stop well, the rubber is too hard. I would rather replace the tires every 40.000 to 50,000 miles and have the safety factor of shorter stopping distance. Then the stickiest tires (shortest stopping distance) only last 5000-20,000 miles, dont need those.


                    Re: Extended Life Prius Tyres
                    Posted by: "David
                    Kelly" dkelly@... n4hhe
                    Sun Jun 6, 2010 6:50 am (PDT)


                    On Jun 4, 2010, at 6:55 PM, JODI & DAVID THOMAS wrote:

                    > The paperwork "guranteeing" those tyres for 6 yr 100K miles is
                    temporarily mislaid (following a flood at my house) but the "extended
                    life tyres" sticker on the doorpost, along with the other stickers
                    placed there (at the factory?) is certainly there. I had already
                    discovered that the warranty would pay roughly half the tyre cost after
                    one year, and after two about one-quarter.
                    >
                    > But the 2007 Prius Touring clearly features extended life tyres in
                    the literature

                    Is this literature available online for others to view?

                    I think your "extended life tyres" was not a feature of the Prius
                    Touring Edition but of your dealer's sales department. Schemes such as
                    "lifetime tires" are common, as is a lifetime warranty on the engine and driveline. Reading the fine print usually shows these schemes to be
                    worthless to most consumers. A common condition is that you have to
                    perform all maintenance with the dealer's service department and can not refuse any "recommended" service no matter the dealer may insist on oil changes every 3,000/3 months and Toyota specifies much longer intervals than that. Refuse any service no matter how outlandish, your "warranty" is voided.

                    As for exceptional tire warranties, most have a condition that you pay
                    the dealer to rotate and balance the tires every 5,000 miles for only
                    $50/pop. Had you shopped the purchase of your tires many tire dealers
                    offer this service for free with new tires. Doesn't take long to pay
                    more for "free" tires than to have bought them outright.

                    Back to the matter at hand, Prius Touring tires are UTQC 260 and 30,000
                    miles is more than one should hope for. UTQC 260 is printed right on the tire sidewall.

                    --
                    David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@HiWAAY. net

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Paul Lawler
                    ... All very true. But Toyota has a lot more attorney power to argue their case than I do to argue mine. I d rather just be in compliance with the warranty
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jun 8, 2010
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                      On Jun 7, 2010, at 04:20 , Dan wrote:

                      > in the U.S. because of this kind of "fraud" the U.S. Government passed a law that says the dealer MUST PROVE that the modifications or lack of maintenance or installation of aftermarket parts caused the failure.
                      >
                      > In other words, not changing the oil every 3000 miles does not void the warranty if you did it every 4000 UNLESS it can be proved conclusively that caused the failure. Not changing tranny fluid as demanded by the dealer does not void the engine warrenty [sic].

                      All very true. But Toyota has a lot more attorney power to argue their case than I do to argue mine. I'd rather just be in compliance with the warranty requirements.
                    • JODI & DAVID THOMAS
                      Attached items from our Prius purchase papers show that we bought extended life tyres (6Yrs/100,000 miles) along with mag wheel locknuts, floor mats, and
                      Message 10 of 14 , Aug 5, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Attached items from our Prius purchase papers show that we bought "extended life tyres" (6Yrs/100,000 miles) along with mag wheel locknuts, floor mats, and who knows what all....


                         

                        Old Folks at Home
                        N 31° 04’ 01.6”
                        W 97° 23’ 00.9”
                         

                        --- On Sat, 6/5/10, David Kelly <dkelly@...> wrote:


                        From: David Kelly <dkelly@...>
                        Subject: Re: [toyota-prius] Extended Life Prius Tyres
                        To: "JODI & DAVID THOMAS" <davidandjodi@...>
                        Cc: "Toyota Prius" <toyota-prius@yahoogroups.com>
                        Date: Saturday, June 5, 2010, 8:23 PM


                         




                        On Jun 4, 2010, at 6:55 PM, JODI & DAVID THOMAS wrote:

                        > The paperwork "guranteeing" those tyres for 6 yr 100K miles is temporarily mislaid (following a flood at my house) but the "extended life tyres" sticker on the doorpost, along with the other stickers placed there (at the factory?) is certainly there. I had already discovered that the warranty would pay roughly half the tyre cost after one year, and after two about one-quarter.
                        >
                        > But the 2007 Prius Touring clearly features extended life tyres in the literature

                        Is this literature available online for others to view?

                        I think your "extended life tyres" was not a feature of the Prius Touring Edition but of your dealer's sales department. Schemes such as "lifetime tires" are common, as is a lifetime warranty on the engine and driveline. Reading the fine print usually shows these schemes to be worthless to most consumers. A common condition is that you have to perform all maintenance with the dealer's service department and can not refuse any "recommended" service no matter the dealer may insist on oil changes every 3,000/3 months and Toyota specifies much longer intervals than that. Refuse any service no matter how outlandish, your "warranty" is voided.

                        As for exceptional tire warranties, most have a condition that you pay the dealer to rotate and balance the tires every 5,000 miles for only $50/pop. Had you shopped the purchase of your tires many tire dealers offer this service for free with new tires. Doesn't take long to pay more for "free" tires than to have bought them outright.

                        Back to the matter at hand, Prius Touring tires are UTQC 260 and 30,000 miles is more than one should hope for. UTQC 260 is printed right on the tire sidewall.

                        --
                        David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@...
                        ========================================================================
                        Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad.








                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • David Kelly
                        ... [...] ... Attachments are (quite properly IMHO) not allowed on this list. If extended life tyres was a Toyota feature then it would not have been
                        Message 11 of 14 , Aug 6, 2010
                        • 0 Attachment
                          On Aug 5, 2010, at 8:14 PM, JODI & DAVID THOMAS wrote:

                          > Attached items from our Prius purchase papers show that we bought "extended life tyres" (6Yrs/100,000 miles) along with mag wheel locknuts, floor mats, and who knows what all....

                          [...]

                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                          Attachments are (quite properly IMHO) not allowed on this list.

                          If "extended life tyres" was a Toyota feature then it would not have been itemized with other optional dealer-added accessories such as locknuts, floor mats and "who knows what all". Your tire warranty is an issue to take up with your dealer, not with Toyota. Not with Toyota unless it is to point out deceptive practices of a dealer who is tarnishing Toyota's good image.

                          No matter what the dealer sold you, a Touring Edition tire is a high wear short life UTC 260. Nothing can change that. The Touring Edition is a *performance* edition where high tire wear and brake wear are commonly accepted. For fun research Lexus IS250 tire wear and brake life, about 15,000, no more than 20,000 miles. The IS250 tires and wheels are similar to your Touring.

                          --
                          David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@...
                          ========================================================================
                          Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad.
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