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Re: a duh... moment... spoilers for 01x13

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  • debrabant_foundation
    These are really interesting thoughts. I am about to watch eps 12-13 in their entirety. (I had only watched bits and pieces, but now I have finally watched
    Message 1 of 8 , Feb 4, 2007
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      These are really interesting thoughts. I am about to watch eps 12-13
      in their entirety. (I had only watched bits and pieces, but now I have
      finally watched the whole series in order)

      I'll defintely have to check these things out.

      Re: Bilis... maybe he's just what John calls him in the
      declassified... "AN EVIL GAY!!!!"

      Sorry, I just got up and I'm still tired... my mind is going weird
      places.

      -Amanda
    • Elizabeth Holden
      ... Perfect! So we were right - Bilis was a sort of anagram after all. Well done, Pfyre. You got it. ... Lots of food for thought. There are many things I
      Message 2 of 8 , Feb 4, 2007
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        Pfyre said:

        > > Bilis - anagram of Iblis - Iblis was a Jinn, a
        > > creature made of smokeless fire by God....
        > > He tempts humans through his whisper of sinful
        > > ideas in their head and false suggestion.

        Perfect! So we were right - Bilis was a sort of
        anagram after all. Well done, Pfyre. You got it.

        > > fascinating how those last two eps still
        > captivate....

        Lots of food for thought. There are many things I
        don't like about "End of Days", which is why I keep
        thinking about it - I want to work it all out in my
        head to my own satisfaction.

        One of the things I like about it is the amount of
        mythical imagery - such as you cite, and the Biblical
        analogies. I'm still finding more symbols and ideas.

        I do hope we see Bilis again, in a further episode.


        --- donutsweeps <donutsweeps@...> wrote:

        > wow, I hadn't thought of any of that! When you look
        > at it that way
        > it makes it even more interesting that he chose not
        > to test Jack.

        I think he tried to test Jack, and failed, or at least
        partially failed. For some reason, it isn't possib;e
        to read Jack's mind, or directly influence it. (Cf.
        "Greeks Bearing Gifts"). I would guess Bilis didn't
        even know about Jack's connection to the Doctor -
        though he must have known he was a time traveller. So
        Bilis could only work with Jack by putting him under
        superficial emotional stress - hench Jack's outburst
        to the others on the team, where he berated them for
        their misdeeds that he'd previously let slide, or had
        been understanding about.

        In other words, Bilis was able to stir up negative
        feelings in Jack, but not to access his psyche, his
        thoughts or his past.

        namaste,
        Elizabeth
      • Russ
        debrabant_foundation wrote: These are really interesting thoughts. I am about to watch eps 12-13 in their entirety. (I had
        Message 3 of 8 , Feb 4, 2007
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          debrabant_foundation <debrabant_foundation@...> wrote: These are really interesting thoughts. I am about to watch eps 12-13
          in their entirety. (I had only watched bits and pieces, but now I have
          finally watched the whole series in order)

          I'll defintely have to check these things out.

          Re: Bilis... maybe he's just what John calls him in the
          declassified... "AN EVIL GAY!!!!"

          Sorry, I just got up and I'm still tired... my mind is going weird
          places.

          -Amanda



          I loved that line!


          Russ

          Television, a medium. So called because it is neither rare nor well
          done.
          -- Ernie Kovacs

          ---------------------------------
          8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
          with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • donutsweeps
          ... as he ... witnessed ... or at ... episode 7 ... necklace ... was ... training as ... the ... along the ... in ... the ... (otherwise ... him to ... back
          Message 4 of 8 , Feb 4, 2007
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            --- In torchwood@yahoogroups.com, pfyre <pfyre@...> wrote:
            >
            > At 12:16 AM 2/4/2007, donutsweeps wrote:
            > ***** BEGIN ORIGINAL MESSAGE *****
            > >--- In torchwood@yahoogroups.com, pfyre <pfyre@> wrote:
            > >>
            > hmmm... I'm not so sure that 'he chose not to test Jack' so much
            as he
            > was not able to or perhaps capable of doing so - from what we
            witnessed
            > in eps 12 & 13 - it would appear that he was capable of telepathy
            or at
            > least a mental 'invasion' of the team members - and yet from
            episode 7
            > (Greeks Bearing Gifts) we know that when Tosh tried to use the
            necklace
            > to read Jack's thoughts she got nothing - Jack on the other hand
            was
            > aware of her efforts -- now either this is a result of his
            training as
            > a Time Agent, a sort of adaptation that has happened to humans by
            the
            > time the 51st century arrives, something he picked up/learned
            along the
            > journey of his life or perhaps a by-product of his immortality --
            in
            > any case - perhaps Bilis's ability to probe the thoughts/psyche of
            the
            > team is limited and he was not able to do the same for Jack
            (otherwise
            > he would have provided Jack with an image of the Doctor advising
            him to
            > open the Rift I'm certain)
            >
            > jmo
            > pfyre - still enthralled by eps 12 & 13 - and who now needs to go
            back
            > and watch 7 as well :D
            >
            true, he may not have been able to 'test' Jack. We know Torchwood
            agents (as seen in DW) were not fooled by psychic paper so
            presumedly they had had some training in blocking out that sort of
            thing, although Ianto still saw Lisa... so maybe that idea is rubbish
            It's possible that Jack is just too moral. Sure he tells Gwen he
            might have opened the rift for the right kind of doctor, but would
            he really have done such a horrible thing to help himself? Even
            back on Satellitte 5 he was willing to die for the greater good,
            would he have let the greater good die for him?
          • pfyre
            At 10:00 AM 2/4/2007, Elizabeth Holden wrote: ... the funny thing about it - I wasn t looking for Bilis (aka Iblis) when I started searching again yesterday -
            Message 5 of 8 , Feb 4, 2007
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              At 10:00 AM 2/4/2007, Elizabeth Holden wrote:
              ***** BEGIN ORIGINAL MESSAGE *****
              >Pfyre said:
              >
              >>>Bilis - anagram of Iblis - Iblis was a Jinn, a creature made of
              >>>smokeless fire by God.... He tempts humans through his whisper of
              >>>sinful ideas in their head and false suggestion.
              >
              >Perfect! So we were right - Bilis was a sort of anagram after
              >all. Well done, Pfyre. You got it.

              the funny thing about it - I wasn't looking for Bilis (aka Iblis) when
              I started searching again yesterday - I was looking up 'manger' cause I
              happened to catch a translation of a 'keep dry' packet that said "DO
              NOT EAT" in English and "NE PAS MANGER" in French....

              >>>fascinating how those last two eps still captivate....
              >
              >Lots of food for thought. There are many things I don't like about
              >"End of Days", which is why I keep thinking about it - I want to work
              >it all out in my head to my own satisfaction.

              yeah - there a number of things I don't like in them either but when
              the rest so captivates me - I tend to be able to overlook the
              inadequacies so to speak -- though I still find almost anything to do
              with Gwen(Eve) quite maddening -- four instances off the top of my head
              - one when she's in Bilis's office in 1x12 - she says "he does look a
              bit out of his time.... he wears a cravaTTT!" with major overemphasis
              on the damned T - when Jack and Tosh reappear in the present day
              outside the Ritz - she comes running up to them and starts immediately
              babbling (paraphrase) "you made it!... you're back..." blah blah blah -
              for a character that is supposed to the be the 'heart' of the Torchwood
              team - the one who is to help them reconnect with humanity - she's
              amazingly OBLIVIOUS to Jack's obvious distress -- and then in 1x13 -
              when Jack is dead on the floor - she is all set to press the 'start'
              button (and just how did she end up being the sudden wiz of all things
              Torchwood on the computer anyway?) and she looks longingly/lovingly
              over at Rhys's dead body in the autopsy area and we the audience can
              see the barest hint of Jack's hand at the bottom of the frame - hello?
              sorry I know she's supposed to be 'mad' with grief over Rhys but she
              has NO thought whatsoever over what Owen did to Jack? she doesn't give
              a damn that her boss is lying there dead? -- and then in the reunion
              scene - when Jack is holding Owen as the man is crying - they pan back
              across the faces of the Team and Gwen(Eve) looks more bored and/or
              embarrassed than sympathetic or at least interested in what is
              happening....

              what is even more maddening to me as a fan of the show is to read the
              three tie-in novels and each and everyone again seems to love to
              emphasize Gwen and/or Rhys - sigh - even in the 'officially' released
              fiction they're fixated on that damned character....

              sigh - sorry.... switching off the Gwen rant mode now...

              >One of the things I like about it is the amount of mythical imagery -
              >such as you cite, and the Biblical analogies. I'm still finding more
              >symbols and ideas.

              oh there were a ton of mythical imagery, biblical imagery in those eps
              - including things like Jack washing the blood from Gwen's hands in the
              autopsy area - made me thing of Jesus washing the feet of his disciples
              - Jack's position (other than on his knees) with his arms outstretched
              made me think of the crucifixion position - Jack's resurrection after a
              number of days of being dead with Gwen sitting vigil - again harkening
              back to Jesus and the preparing of his body - the watch the women and
              his disciples kept on the tomb, etc.

              and while not biblical - I did like Jack meeting Owen halfway on that
              walkway in the reunion scene - symbolically willing meet Owen halfway

              >I do hope we see Bilis again, in a further episode.

              it would be interesting to see if he reappears or if he was destroyed
              with Abbadon when Jack's immortal lifeforce overwhelmed the creature

              >--- donutsweeps <donutsweeps@...> wrote:
              >
              >>wow, I hadn't thought of any of that! When you look at it that way
              >>it makes it even more interesting that he chose not to test Jack.
              >
              >I think he tried to test Jack, and failed, or at least partially
              >failed. For some reason, it isn't possib;e to read Jack's mind, or
              >directly influence it. (Cf. "Greeks Bearing Gifts"). I would guess
              >Bilis didn't even know about Jack's connection to the Doctor - though
              >he must have known he was a time traveller. So Bilis could only work
              >with Jack by putting him under superficial emotional stress - hench
              >Jack's outburst to the others on the team, where he berated them for
              >their misdeeds that he'd previously let slide, or had been
              >understanding about.
              >
              >In other words, Bilis was able to stir up negative feelings in Jack,
              >but not to access his psyche, his thoughts or his past.

              that does make sense - that he was able to exert some influence but not
              in the way he would've preferred I'm certain

              then again Jack's anger and use of those hurtful incidences to taunt
              the other team members could be attributed to the fact that he feels
              personally betrayed by each and every member of the team at that moment
              and is striking out in his own very real anger or feels that by making
              these mentions he can snap them out of their fixation on opening the
              rift??

              just some thoughts
              pfyre
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