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Re: [torchwood] Re: a duh... moment... spoilers for 01x13

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  • pfyre
    At 12:16 AM 2/4/2007, donutsweeps wrote: ... hmmm... I m not so sure that he chose not to test Jack so much as he was not able to or perhaps capable of doing
    Message 1 of 8 , Feb 4, 2007
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      At 12:16 AM 2/4/2007, donutsweeps wrote:
      ***** BEGIN ORIGINAL MESSAGE *****
      >--- In torchwood@yahoogroups.com, pfyre <pfyre@...> wrote:
      >>
      >>after End of Days aired we had much discussion regarding whether or
      >>not Bilis Manger was an anagram in the same vein and Torchwood is for
      >>Doctor Who... and I had a sudden thought this afternoon....
      >>
      >>Bilis - anagram of Iblis - Iblis was a Jinn, a creature made of
      >>smokeless fire by God.... He was later sent to earth along with Adam
      >>and Eve after having lured them into eating fruit from the forbidden
      >>tree.... He replied with saying that he wanted to bring the
      >>inhabitants of Earth down with him, and Allah (God), to test Mankind
      >>and Jinn, allowed him to roam Earth to attempt to misguide others. He
      >>tempts humans through his whisper of sinful ideas in their head and
      >>false suggestion.
      >>
      >>he certainly lured the members of Torchwood down the wrong path in
      >>regards to the rift
      >>
      >>'Manger' French translation to English: "To Eat" - and he was the
      >>preparer of the way for Abbadon - the destroyer of life - the demon
      >>that feasted on life.
      >>
      >>---
      >>
      >>fascinating how those last two eps still captivate....
      >>
      >>pfyre
      >
      >wow, I hadn't thought of any of that! When you look at it that way it
      >makes it even more interesting that he chose not to test Jack.

      hmmm... I'm not so sure that 'he chose not to test Jack' so much as he
      was not able to or perhaps capable of doing so - from what we witnessed
      in eps 12 & 13 - it would appear that he was capable of telepathy or at
      least a mental 'invasion' of the team members - and yet from episode 7
      (Greeks Bearing Gifts) we know that when Tosh tried to use the necklace
      to read Jack's thoughts she got nothing - Jack on the other hand was
      aware of her efforts -- now either this is a result of his training as
      a Time Agent, a sort of adaptation that has happened to humans by the
      time the 51st century arrives, something he picked up/learned along the
      journey of his life or perhaps a by-product of his immortality -- in
      any case - perhaps Bilis's ability to probe the thoughts/psyche of the
      team is limited and he was not able to do the same for Jack (otherwise
      he would have provided Jack with an image of the Doctor advising him to
      open the Rift I'm certain)

      jmo
      pfyre - still enthralled by eps 12 & 13 - and who now needs to go back
      and watch 7 as well :D
    • debrabant_foundation
      These are really interesting thoughts. I am about to watch eps 12-13 in their entirety. (I had only watched bits and pieces, but now I have finally watched
      Message 2 of 8 , Feb 4, 2007
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        These are really interesting thoughts. I am about to watch eps 12-13
        in their entirety. (I had only watched bits and pieces, but now I have
        finally watched the whole series in order)

        I'll defintely have to check these things out.

        Re: Bilis... maybe he's just what John calls him in the
        declassified... "AN EVIL GAY!!!!"

        Sorry, I just got up and I'm still tired... my mind is going weird
        places.

        -Amanda
      • Elizabeth Holden
        ... Perfect! So we were right - Bilis was a sort of anagram after all. Well done, Pfyre. You got it. ... Lots of food for thought. There are many things I
        Message 3 of 8 , Feb 4, 2007
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          Pfyre said:

          > > Bilis - anagram of Iblis - Iblis was a Jinn, a
          > > creature made of smokeless fire by God....
          > > He tempts humans through his whisper of sinful
          > > ideas in their head and false suggestion.

          Perfect! So we were right - Bilis was a sort of
          anagram after all. Well done, Pfyre. You got it.

          > > fascinating how those last two eps still
          > captivate....

          Lots of food for thought. There are many things I
          don't like about "End of Days", which is why I keep
          thinking about it - I want to work it all out in my
          head to my own satisfaction.

          One of the things I like about it is the amount of
          mythical imagery - such as you cite, and the Biblical
          analogies. I'm still finding more symbols and ideas.

          I do hope we see Bilis again, in a further episode.


          --- donutsweeps <donutsweeps@...> wrote:

          > wow, I hadn't thought of any of that! When you look
          > at it that way
          > it makes it even more interesting that he chose not
          > to test Jack.

          I think he tried to test Jack, and failed, or at least
          partially failed. For some reason, it isn't possib;e
          to read Jack's mind, or directly influence it. (Cf.
          "Greeks Bearing Gifts"). I would guess Bilis didn't
          even know about Jack's connection to the Doctor -
          though he must have known he was a time traveller. So
          Bilis could only work with Jack by putting him under
          superficial emotional stress - hench Jack's outburst
          to the others on the team, where he berated them for
          their misdeeds that he'd previously let slide, or had
          been understanding about.

          In other words, Bilis was able to stir up negative
          feelings in Jack, but not to access his psyche, his
          thoughts or his past.

          namaste,
          Elizabeth
        • Russ
          debrabant_foundation wrote: These are really interesting thoughts. I am about to watch eps 12-13 in their entirety. (I had
          Message 4 of 8 , Feb 4, 2007
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            debrabant_foundation <debrabant_foundation@...> wrote: These are really interesting thoughts. I am about to watch eps 12-13
            in their entirety. (I had only watched bits and pieces, but now I have
            finally watched the whole series in order)

            I'll defintely have to check these things out.

            Re: Bilis... maybe he's just what John calls him in the
            declassified... "AN EVIL GAY!!!!"

            Sorry, I just got up and I'm still tired... my mind is going weird
            places.

            -Amanda



            I loved that line!


            Russ

            Television, a medium. So called because it is neither rare nor well
            done.
            -- Ernie Kovacs

            ---------------------------------
            8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • donutsweeps
            ... as he ... witnessed ... or at ... episode 7 ... necklace ... was ... training as ... the ... along the ... in ... the ... (otherwise ... him to ... back
            Message 5 of 8 , Feb 4, 2007
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              --- In torchwood@yahoogroups.com, pfyre <pfyre@...> wrote:
              >
              > At 12:16 AM 2/4/2007, donutsweeps wrote:
              > ***** BEGIN ORIGINAL MESSAGE *****
              > >--- In torchwood@yahoogroups.com, pfyre <pfyre@> wrote:
              > >>
              > hmmm... I'm not so sure that 'he chose not to test Jack' so much
              as he
              > was not able to or perhaps capable of doing so - from what we
              witnessed
              > in eps 12 & 13 - it would appear that he was capable of telepathy
              or at
              > least a mental 'invasion' of the team members - and yet from
              episode 7
              > (Greeks Bearing Gifts) we know that when Tosh tried to use the
              necklace
              > to read Jack's thoughts she got nothing - Jack on the other hand
              was
              > aware of her efforts -- now either this is a result of his
              training as
              > a Time Agent, a sort of adaptation that has happened to humans by
              the
              > time the 51st century arrives, something he picked up/learned
              along the
              > journey of his life or perhaps a by-product of his immortality --
              in
              > any case - perhaps Bilis's ability to probe the thoughts/psyche of
              the
              > team is limited and he was not able to do the same for Jack
              (otherwise
              > he would have provided Jack with an image of the Doctor advising
              him to
              > open the Rift I'm certain)
              >
              > jmo
              > pfyre - still enthralled by eps 12 & 13 - and who now needs to go
              back
              > and watch 7 as well :D
              >
              true, he may not have been able to 'test' Jack. We know Torchwood
              agents (as seen in DW) were not fooled by psychic paper so
              presumedly they had had some training in blocking out that sort of
              thing, although Ianto still saw Lisa... so maybe that idea is rubbish
              It's possible that Jack is just too moral. Sure he tells Gwen he
              might have opened the rift for the right kind of doctor, but would
              he really have done such a horrible thing to help himself? Even
              back on Satellitte 5 he was willing to die for the greater good,
              would he have let the greater good die for him?
            • pfyre
              At 10:00 AM 2/4/2007, Elizabeth Holden wrote: ... the funny thing about it - I wasn t looking for Bilis (aka Iblis) when I started searching again yesterday -
              Message 6 of 8 , Feb 4, 2007
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                At 10:00 AM 2/4/2007, Elizabeth Holden wrote:
                ***** BEGIN ORIGINAL MESSAGE *****
                >Pfyre said:
                >
                >>>Bilis - anagram of Iblis - Iblis was a Jinn, a creature made of
                >>>smokeless fire by God.... He tempts humans through his whisper of
                >>>sinful ideas in their head and false suggestion.
                >
                >Perfect! So we were right - Bilis was a sort of anagram after
                >all. Well done, Pfyre. You got it.

                the funny thing about it - I wasn't looking for Bilis (aka Iblis) when
                I started searching again yesterday - I was looking up 'manger' cause I
                happened to catch a translation of a 'keep dry' packet that said "DO
                NOT EAT" in English and "NE PAS MANGER" in French....

                >>>fascinating how those last two eps still captivate....
                >
                >Lots of food for thought. There are many things I don't like about
                >"End of Days", which is why I keep thinking about it - I want to work
                >it all out in my head to my own satisfaction.

                yeah - there a number of things I don't like in them either but when
                the rest so captivates me - I tend to be able to overlook the
                inadequacies so to speak -- though I still find almost anything to do
                with Gwen(Eve) quite maddening -- four instances off the top of my head
                - one when she's in Bilis's office in 1x12 - she says "he does look a
                bit out of his time.... he wears a cravaTTT!" with major overemphasis
                on the damned T - when Jack and Tosh reappear in the present day
                outside the Ritz - she comes running up to them and starts immediately
                babbling (paraphrase) "you made it!... you're back..." blah blah blah -
                for a character that is supposed to the be the 'heart' of the Torchwood
                team - the one who is to help them reconnect with humanity - she's
                amazingly OBLIVIOUS to Jack's obvious distress -- and then in 1x13 -
                when Jack is dead on the floor - she is all set to press the 'start'
                button (and just how did she end up being the sudden wiz of all things
                Torchwood on the computer anyway?) and she looks longingly/lovingly
                over at Rhys's dead body in the autopsy area and we the audience can
                see the barest hint of Jack's hand at the bottom of the frame - hello?
                sorry I know she's supposed to be 'mad' with grief over Rhys but she
                has NO thought whatsoever over what Owen did to Jack? she doesn't give
                a damn that her boss is lying there dead? -- and then in the reunion
                scene - when Jack is holding Owen as the man is crying - they pan back
                across the faces of the Team and Gwen(Eve) looks more bored and/or
                embarrassed than sympathetic or at least interested in what is
                happening....

                what is even more maddening to me as a fan of the show is to read the
                three tie-in novels and each and everyone again seems to love to
                emphasize Gwen and/or Rhys - sigh - even in the 'officially' released
                fiction they're fixated on that damned character....

                sigh - sorry.... switching off the Gwen rant mode now...

                >One of the things I like about it is the amount of mythical imagery -
                >such as you cite, and the Biblical analogies. I'm still finding more
                >symbols and ideas.

                oh there were a ton of mythical imagery, biblical imagery in those eps
                - including things like Jack washing the blood from Gwen's hands in the
                autopsy area - made me thing of Jesus washing the feet of his disciples
                - Jack's position (other than on his knees) with his arms outstretched
                made me think of the crucifixion position - Jack's resurrection after a
                number of days of being dead with Gwen sitting vigil - again harkening
                back to Jesus and the preparing of his body - the watch the women and
                his disciples kept on the tomb, etc.

                and while not biblical - I did like Jack meeting Owen halfway on that
                walkway in the reunion scene - symbolically willing meet Owen halfway

                >I do hope we see Bilis again, in a further episode.

                it would be interesting to see if he reappears or if he was destroyed
                with Abbadon when Jack's immortal lifeforce overwhelmed the creature

                >--- donutsweeps <donutsweeps@...> wrote:
                >
                >>wow, I hadn't thought of any of that! When you look at it that way
                >>it makes it even more interesting that he chose not to test Jack.
                >
                >I think he tried to test Jack, and failed, or at least partially
                >failed. For some reason, it isn't possib;e to read Jack's mind, or
                >directly influence it. (Cf. "Greeks Bearing Gifts"). I would guess
                >Bilis didn't even know about Jack's connection to the Doctor - though
                >he must have known he was a time traveller. So Bilis could only work
                >with Jack by putting him under superficial emotional stress - hench
                >Jack's outburst to the others on the team, where he berated them for
                >their misdeeds that he'd previously let slide, or had been
                >understanding about.
                >
                >In other words, Bilis was able to stir up negative feelings in Jack,
                >but not to access his psyche, his thoughts or his past.

                that does make sense - that he was able to exert some influence but not
                in the way he would've preferred I'm certain

                then again Jack's anger and use of those hurtful incidences to taunt
                the other team members could be attributed to the fact that he feels
                personally betrayed by each and every member of the team at that moment
                and is striking out in his own very real anger or feels that by making
                these mentions he can snap them out of their fixation on opening the
                rift??

                just some thoughts
                pfyre
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