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Re: [torchwood] Re: New Torchwood series 'possible' but it won't be for a whi...

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  • dizzheart@aol.com
    Well answered. I can only say that, although you make a number of good points about inconsistencies in plots and such, I still like both Jack and Gwen, and
    Message 1 of 23 , Apr 9, 2012
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      Well answered. I can only say that, although you make a number of good
      points about inconsistencies in plots and such, I still like both Jack and
      Gwen, and still grieve for Tosh, Ianto and Owen.

      Janice


      In a message dated 4/9/2012 10:20:32 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
      oshaun@... writes:




      I watched the show initially for John's Capt. Jack Harkness and then for
      Jack and Ianto. Halfway thru the first series I was ready to be done
      with Gwen and as I said by the time Adrift aired I found her
      irredeemable and nauseating.

      I only know of Eve Myles from a few articles, etc. and interviews
      connected with Torchwood. She doesn't make a great impression on me as
      an actress [I was never impressed by her Gwyneth in 'Unquiet Dead'] but
      I don't 'hate' Eve - I hate Gwen and how Torchwood was distorted to make
      her special.

      pfyre

      /A true friend is someone who thinks that you are a good egg even though
      he knows that you are slightly cracked. /Robert Meltzer

      On 4/10/2012 12:20 AM, _dizzheart@..._ (mailto:dizzheart@...)
      wrote:
      > Wow, that's quite a diatribe. May I ask why you punished yourself by
      > watching the show so faithfully? (I can tell your comments are based on
      having
      > studied it pretty closely - as opposed to a cursory knowledge based on
      > having seen a couple of eps.)
      >
      > I like Eve Myles too, but I don't have to like her to respect her
      > character. The same for RTD.
      >
      > Janice
      >






      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Daren :)
      Open Question ?? I ve often puzzled as to why RTD Killed off Tosh Owen and then Lanto Like do you think that knowing that the end of season two the show would
      Message 2 of 23 , Apr 9, 2012
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        Open Question ??

        I've often puzzled as to why RTD Killed off Tosh Owen and then Lanto

        Like do you think that knowing that the end of season two the show would not be picked up for a further year RTD decided a What the Fcuk and decided to kill off some cast members to spice things up ??

        And then seeing the reaction he decided to kill off another cast member ???

        Do you think the underlying reason for making the crew of Torchwood helpless on the run was a way of doing a sort of MacGyver seeing how they would work without all the really cool toys or the Power or Authority ???

        Why do you think the remaining members of Torchwood were still being hunted down at the beginning of MD with Frobisher dead who else is issuing those blank papers to kill off the Torchwood crew ????

        Daren
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: dizzheart@...
        To: torchwood@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 4:17 PM
        Subject: Re: [torchwood] Re: New Torchwood series 'possible' but it won't be for a whi...



        Well answered. I can only say that, although you make a number of good
        points about inconsistencies in plots and such, I still like both Jack and
        Gwen, and still grieve for Tosh, Ianto and Owen.

        Janice


        In a message dated 4/9/2012 10:20:32 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
        oshaun@... writes:

        I watched the show initially for John's Capt. Jack Harkness and then for
        Jack and Ianto. Halfway thru the first series I was ready to be done
        with Gwen and as I said by the time Adrift aired I found her
        irredeemable and nauseating.

        I only know of Eve Myles from a few articles, etc. and interviews
        connected with Torchwood. She doesn't make a great impression on me as
        an actress [I was never impressed by her Gwyneth in 'Unquiet Dead'] but
        I don't 'hate' Eve - I hate Gwen and how Torchwood was distorted to make
        her special.

        pfyre

        /A true friend is someone who thinks that you are a good egg even though
        he knows that you are slightly cracked. /Robert Meltzer

        On 4/10/2012 12:20 AM, _dizzheart@..._ (mailto:dizzheart@...)
        wrote:
        > Wow, that's quite a diatribe. May I ask why you punished yourself by
        > watching the show so faithfully? (I can tell your comments are based on
        having
        > studied it pretty closely - as opposed to a cursory knowledge based on
        > having seen a couple of eps.)
        >
        > I like Eve Myles too, but I don't have to like her to respect her
        > character. The same for RTD.
        >
        > Janice
        >

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • dizzheart@aol.com
        The rumors I read at the time said RTD wanted to bring in Freema Agyeman as Martha Jones as a permanent team member, and also to find a spot for Russell
        Message 3 of 23 , Apr 9, 2012
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          The rumors I read at the time said RTD wanted to bring in Freema Agyeman
          as Martha Jones as a permanent team member, and also to find a spot for
          Russell Tovey. When it got to COE, it was thought that might be the last
          Torchwood, so Ianto was killed off as part of the drama.

          Dunno how true any of that was.

          Janice




          In a message dated 4/9/2012 11:25:30 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
          twoshedsluxuryyacht@... writes:




          Open Question ??

          I've often puzzled as to why RTD Killed off Tosh Owen and then Lanto







          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Daren :)
          Are you saying that Lanto Tosh and Owen were rid off to make way for Freema and Russel Tovey ??? Daren ... From: dizzheart@aol.com To:
          Message 4 of 23 , Apr 9, 2012
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            Are you saying that Lanto Tosh and Owen were rid off to make way for Freema and Russel Tovey ???

            Daren
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: dizzheart@...
            To: torchwood@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 4:28 PM
            Subject: Re: [torchwood] Re: New Torchwood series 'possible' but it won't be for a whi...



            The rumors I read at the time said RTD wanted to bring in Freema Agyeman
            as Martha Jones as a permanent team member, and also to find a spot for
            Russell Tovey. When it got to COE, it was thought that might be the last
            Torchwood, so Ianto was killed off as part of the drama.

            Dunno how true any of that was.

            Janice




            In a message dated 4/9/2012 11:25:30 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
            twoshedsluxuryyacht@... writes:

            Open Question ??

            I've often puzzled as to why RTD Killed off Tosh Owen and then Lanto

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • dizzheart@aol.com
            No, I m not; I m saying those were the RUMORS I saw. For whatever reason, if true, it didn t work out. Janice In a message dated 4/9/2012 11:37:03 P.M.
            Message 5 of 23 , Apr 9, 2012
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              No, I'm not; I'm saying those were the RUMORS I saw. For whatever reason,
              if true, it didn't work out.

              Janice



              In a message dated 4/9/2012 11:37:03 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
              twoshedsluxuryyacht@... writes:




              Are you saying that Lanto Tosh and Owen were rid off to make way for Freema
              and Russel Tovey ???

              Daren
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: _dizzheart@..._ (mailto:dizzheart@...)
              To: _torchwood@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:torchwood@yahoogroups.com)
              Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 4:28 PM
              Subject: Re: [torchwood] Re: New Torchwood series 'possible' but it won't
              be for a whi...

              The rumors I read at the time said RTD wanted to bring in Freema Agyeman
              as Martha Jones as a permanent team member, and also to find a spot for
              Russell Tovey. When it got to COE, it was thought that might be the last
              Torchwood, so Ianto was killed off as part of the drama.

              Dunno how true any of that was.

              Janice

              In a message dated 4/9/2012 11:25:30 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
              _twoshedsluxuryyacht@..._ (mailto:twoshedsluxuryyacht@...)
              writes:

              Open Question ??

              I've often puzzled as to why RTD Killed off Tosh Owen and then Lanto







              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • sem
              Frankly, even though she came across as mousy, I thought Tosh became the strongest female character at the end. I can t see Gwen doing what Tosh did. Even the
              Message 6 of 23 , Apr 10, 2012
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                Frankly, even though she came across as mousy, I thought Tosh became the
                strongest female character at the end. I can't see Gwen doing what Tosh did.
                Even the way Tosh came into Torchwood was pretty impressive, even though she
                was trying to save her mother. And of course spending who knows how long in
                that empty jail cell.

                And she was brave and very smart. In the episode where they're in WWII, she
                saved the day with a lot of guts and street smarts. And towards the end,
                with Owen, well... there's never a dry eye when I watch that. She was
                terrific.

                Just my 2 cents (or pence or whatever).

                Catzy




                -----Original Message-----
                From: torchwood@yahoogroups.com [mailto:torchwood@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                Of pfyre
                Sent: Monday, April 09, 2012 21:04
                To: torchwood@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [torchwood] Re: New Torchwood series 'possible' but it won't be
                for a whi...

                Sorry there is nothing about Gwen that I find to indicate that she's a
                'natural leader' - more that she's self-centered and feels entitled and
                simply PUSHED her way into leading while Jack was off with the Doctor.
              • kaki4@nc.rr.com
                I agree with pfyre and also wathced the show a lot. I love Captain Jack and Ianto (together and spearate), loved Tosh, loved the idea of the show, and could
                Message 7 of 23 , Apr 10, 2012
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                  I agree with pfyre and also wathced the show a lot. I love Captain Jack and Ianto (together and spearate), loved Tosh, loved the idea of the show, and could survive Gwen. To me she was the irritating Barney Fife tyoe character. But when people say she was a strong female lead or a moral compass or any of that stuff, I just disagree. I like the idea of strong female characters, but I'll take Tosh over Gwen any day (I do not want kids thinking the things she did make a strong, good woman!).

                  Thinking of RTD and strong female characters, give me Debbie Novatny (can't think of the UK QAF character name right now). flawed, brash, but human and so powerful (to me anyway) as a female character.

                  So, back to me thinking of how could we go back to TW in Wales with Andy, perhaps. Or add new folks, then keep them around long enough to care about them!

                  Kaki



                  ---- dizzheart@... wrote:
                  > Wow, that's quite a diatribe. May I ask why you punished yourself by
                  > watching the show so faithfully? (I can tell your comments are based on having
                  > studied it pretty closely - as opposed to a cursory knowledge based on
                  > having seen a couple of eps.)
                  >
                  > I like Eve Myles too, but I don't have to like her to respect her
                  > character. The same for RTD.
                  >
                  > Janice
                  >
                  >
                  > In a message dated 4/9/2012 9:03:59 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                  > oshaun@... writes:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Sorry there is nothing about Gwen that I find to indicate that she's a
                  > 'natural leader' - more that she's self-centered and feels entitled and
                  > simply PUSHED her way into leading while Jack was off with the Doctor.
                  >
                  > As for RTD's writing of powerful female characters - it wasn't so much
                  > that he was writing Gwen as strong but that he was tooling the whole
                  > damned show as a showcase for Eve and didn't give a damn what characters
                  > became collateral damage in her wake. Sorry but he has no real clue
                  > about writing a long term strong female character than virtually any
                  > other male scriptwriter out there.
                  >
                  > I didn't start out hating or even disliking Gwen but by the time
                  > 'Adrift' was broadcast she was and continues to be completely
                  > irredeemable to me.
                  >
                  > Hell, in MD she's preaching to Oswald about all the bad people she'd
                  > dealt with as a constable - BS - she wasn't constable long enough that
                  > have that sort of experience - it was painfully obvious from the get go
                  > of series one that she was so new she practically squeaked when she
                  > walked.
                  >
                  > pfyre
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • dizzheart@aol.com
                  Personally I don t think there will ever be any further Torchwood done. Everybody s getting older and that ship has sailed. Janice [Non-text portions of this
                  Message 8 of 23 , Apr 10, 2012
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                    Personally I don't think there will ever be any further Torchwood done.
                    Everybody's getting older and that ship has sailed.

                    Janice




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Jack
                    Captain jack need to hook up with doctor again. Sent via my LG Marquee from Boost Mobile
                    Message 9 of 23 , Apr 10, 2012
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                      Captain jack need to hook up with doctor again.

                      Sent via my LG Marquee from Boost Mobile

                      kaki4@... wrote:

                      >I agree with pfyre and also wathced the show a lot. I love Captain Jack and Ianto (together and spearate), loved Tosh, loved the idea of the show, and could survive Gwen. To me she was the irritating Barney Fife tyoe character. But when people say she was a strong female lead or a moral compass or any of that stuff, I just disagree. I like the idea of strong female characters, but I'll take Tosh over Gwen any day (I do not want kids thinking the things she did make a strong, good woman!).
                      >
                      >Thinking of RTD and strong female characters, give me Debbie Novatny (can't think of the UK QAF character name right now). flawed, brash, but human and so powerful (to me anyway) as a female character.
                      >
                      >So, back to me thinking of how could we go back to TW in Wales with Andy, perhaps. Or add new folks, then keep them around long enough to care about them!
                      >
                      >Kaki
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >---- dizzheart@... wrote:
                      >> Wow, that's quite a diatribe. May I ask why you punished yourself by
                      >> watching the show so faithfully? (I can tell your comments are based on having
                      >> studied it pretty closely - as opposed to a cursory knowledge based on
                      >> having seen a couple of eps.)
                      >>
                      >> I like Eve Myles too, but I don't have to like her to respect her
                      >> character. The same for RTD.
                      >>
                      >> Janice
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> In a message dated 4/9/2012 9:03:59 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                      >> oshaun@... writes:
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> Sorry there is nothing about Gwen that I find to indicate that she's a
                      >> 'natural leader' - more that she's self-centered and feels entitled and
                      >> simply PUSHED her way into leading while Jack was off with the Doctor.
                      >>
                      >> As for RTD's writing of powerful female characters - it wasn't so much
                      >> that he was writing Gwen as strong but that he was tooling the whole
                      >> damned show as a showcase for Eve and didn't give a damn what characters
                      >> became collateral damage in her wake. Sorry but he has no real clue
                      >> about writing a long term strong female character than virtually any
                      >> other male scriptwriter out there.
                      >>
                      >> I didn't start out hating or even disliking Gwen but by the time
                      >> 'Adrift' was broadcast she was and continues to be completely
                      >> irredeemable to me.
                      >>
                      >> Hell, in MD she's preaching to Oswald about all the bad people she'd
                      >> dealt with as a constable - BS - she wasn't constable long enough that
                      >> have that sort of experience - it was painfully obvious from the get go
                      >> of series one that she was so new she practically squeaked when she
                      >> walked.
                      >>
                      >> pfyre
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                    • psionycx
                      Tosh had TONS of potential! The problem was (aside from RTD s whole All-About-Eve thing) was that as the show progressed they seemed to be aiming for the
                      Message 10 of 23 , Apr 11, 2012
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                        Tosh had TONS of potential! The problem was (aside from RTD's whole All-About-Eve thing) was that as the show progressed they seemed to be aiming for the lowest intellectual factor.

                        Consider: the Jack that we first had in Doctor Who was REALLY smart. Smart enough to crosswire the "pan-dimensional surfboard", a piece of amazingly advanced technology, into the console of the TARDIS, a piece of technology more advanced than anything that humans will EVER build in the Whoniverse!

                        Yet over the course of the show, it seems as if Jack's overall intelligence drops every time he dies and his resurrected. This seems to be meant to make him less geeky and more of a stock action guy who just has occasional flashes of brilliance (usually when it's too late to be useful).

                        Tosh had the same problem as compared to Gwen. Other than nagging and an increasing proficiency with firearms (remember that she had none when she started) Gwen was almost terminally stupid (didn't know what a GPS was!), but loved to run around and get into scraps. Tosh was far too prone to thinking logically and approaching alien threats as a scientific problem. Kind of the way the Doctor taught UNIT to do during his tenure with them. There's a reason why a physician/xenologist like Martha quickly rose in the UNIT ranks.

                        Back at Torchwood, rank is a function of bluster it seems. Tosh lacked this trait. She was more oriented towards applying knowledge to any situation. RTD's love affair with the geeky seemed to have been brief. Could Tosh have made a much more exciting character, and possible leader? Absolutely! Martha demonstrated the merits of the smart action girl. The science heroine who has brains instead of just bombast.

                        Perhaps Tosh just wasn't Sarah Palin enough. Being good with a gun and uninterested in thinking seems to be a virtue in these troubled times. Tosh was (IMHO) prettier than Gwen (if only they had dressed her better) WAY smarter and had WAAAAAYYY more potential as a character.

                        --- In torchwood@yahoogroups.com, "sem" <catz@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Frankly, even though she came across as mousy, I thought Tosh became the
                        > strongest female character at the end. I can't see Gwen doing what Tosh did.
                        > Even the way Tosh came into Torchwood was pretty impressive, even though she
                        > was trying to save her mother. And of course spending who knows how long in
                        > that empty jail cell.
                        >
                        > And she was brave and very smart. In the episode where they're in WWII, she
                        > saved the day with a lot of guts and street smarts. And towards the end,
                        > with Owen, well... there's never a dry eye when I watch that. She was
                        > terrific.
                        >
                        > Just my 2 cents (or pence or whatever).
                        >
                        > Catzy
                        >
                        >
                      • JoAnne Briere
                        I wasn t going into those discusssion as too many times, I ve heard why are you around if you dislike it so much?   Well things are I love TW - with a team.
                        Message 11 of 23 , Apr 11, 2012
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                          I wasn't going into those discusssion as too many times, I've heard "why are you around if you dislike it so much?"
                           
                          Well things are I love TW - with a team. I could dislike and dismiss all about Gwen, because there was enough of everyone else around, to find pleasure in TW. I never like her, found her to not be a good female role model at all. I could never befriend someone like Gwen, sleeping around, hurting people, not thinking nor stepping back. Judging harschly others, refusing to have anything said remotely true about her.
                           
                          Tosh, Owen, Ianto made up enough air time, to make the serie challenging, interesting and flawed.
                           
                          The writer created his characters, loved some, hated some; it's his priviledge. It's mine to agree, disagree.
                          COE was not TW - it was a story in his folder, he wanted it out, and it put some of the TW people in it , throughtout. It gave a chance for Ianto to show his brain and action, for Rhys to be smarter than his wife, yet as cluelss at that. But the story was something else, in which he interspeded some bits of.
                           
                          Jack kept changing, too fast for reality. Long life doesn't mean the man can adapt quickly to all situation, actually it would be the opposition.
                           
                          Anyway, I won't be around for more TW - as MD was really the end of the line for me. Does it mean I should reminisce and talk about the way it was and it attracted us.
                           
                          Johanne

                          De : psionycx <dsyrek@...>
                          À : torchwood@yahoogroups.com
                          Envoyé le : mercredi 11 avril 2012 11h20
                          Objet : [torchwood] Re: New Torchwood series 'possible' but it won't be for a whi...

                          Tosh had TONS of potential! The problem was (aside from RTD's whole All-About-Eve thing) was that as the show progressed they seemed to be aiming for the lowest intellectual factor.

                          Consider: the Jack that we first had in Doctor Who was REALLY smart. Smart enough to crosswire the "pan-dimensional surfboard", a piece of amazingly advanced technology, into the console of the TARDIS, a piece of technology more advanced than anything that humans will EVER build in the Whoniverse!

                          Yet over the course of the show, it seems as if Jack's overall intelligence drops every time he dies and his resurrected. This seems to be meant to make him less geeky and more of a stock action guy who just has occasional flashes of brilliance (usually when it's too late to be useful).

                          Tosh had the same problem as compared to Gwen. Other than nagging and an increasing proficiency with firearms (remember that she had none when she started) Gwen was almost terminally stupid (didn't know what a GPS was!), but loved to run around and get into scraps. Tosh was far too prone to thinking logically and approaching alien threats as a scientific problem. Kind of the way the Doctor taught UNIT to do during his tenure with them. There's a reason why a physician/xenologist like Martha quickly rose in the UNIT ranks.

                          Back at Torchwood, rank is a function of bluster it seems. Tosh lacked this trait. She was more oriented towards applying knowledge to any situation. RTD's love affair with the geeky seemed to have been brief. Could Tosh have made a much more exciting character, and possible leader? Absolutely! Martha demonstrated the merits of the smart action girl. The science heroine who has brains instead of just bombast.

                          Perhaps Tosh just wasn't Sarah Palin enough. Being good with a gun and uninterested in thinking seems to be a virtue in these troubled times. Tosh was (IMHO) prettier than Gwen (if only they had dressed her better) WAY smarter and had WAAAAAYYY more potential as a character.

                          --- In torchwood@yahoogroups.com, "sem" <catz@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Frankly, even though she came across as mousy, I thought Tosh became the
                          > strongest female character at the end. I can't see Gwen doing what Tosh did.
                          > Even the way Tosh came into Torchwood was pretty impressive, even though she
                          > was trying to save her mother. And of course spending who knows how long in
                          > that empty jail cell.
                          >
                          > And she was brave and very smart. In the episode where they're in WWII, she
                          > saved the day with a lot of guts and street smarts. And towards the end,
                          > with Owen, well... there's never a dry eye when I watch that. She was
                          > terrific.
                          >
                          > Just my 2 cents (or pence or whatever).
                          >
                          > Catzy
                          >
                          >




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                        • JoAnne Briere
                          I though Gareth David-Lloyd was an interesting actor; with good lines and decent storytelling, I think as an actor he could go place.     De : pfyre
                          Message 12 of 23 , Apr 11, 2012
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                            I though Gareth David-Lloyd was an interesting actor; with good lines and decent storytelling, I think as an actor he could go place.
                             
                             

                            De : pfyre <oshaun@...>
                            À : torchwood@yahoogroups.com
                            Envoyé le : lundi 9 avril 2012 23h53
                            Objet : Re: [torchwood] Re: New Torchwood series 'possible' but it won't be for a whi...

                            Actually what Ianto lacked was RTD's complete and utter infatuation with
                            Eve Myles.

                            pfyre

                            /A true friend is someone who thinks that you are a good egg even though
                            he knows that you are slightly cracked. /Robert Meltzer


                            On 4/9/2012 8:49 PM, psionycx wrote:
                            > Sadly, Jack probably would have done better with his boyfriend as a moral compass. But that relationship fell because poor Ianto lacked Gwen's impregnable plot armour.


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                          • JoAnne Briere
                            I wholeheartely agree with this post.   Johanne De : psionycx À : torchwood@yahoogroups.com Envoyé le : lundi 9 avril 2012 21h26
                            Message 13 of 23 , Apr 11, 2012
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                              I wholeheartely agree with this post.
                               
                              Johanne

                              De : psionycx <dsyrek@...>
                              À : torchwood@yahoogroups.com
                              Envoyé le : lundi 9 avril 2012 21h26
                              Objet : [torchwood] Re: New Torchwood series 'possible' but it won't be for a whi...

                              I was going back to your original post about how Jack's immortality made him a "superhero", and technically he wasn't immortal for most of MD, which meant that what he really needed was someone to keep his *** alive!

                              But going back to your point, other than plot armor that keeps her alive after everyone else has died, Gwen offers nothing especially unique in terms of balancing out Jack's personality. Indeed, if anything she literally demonstrated on "Day One" that she is reckless to the point of being a menace herself. No wonder the police seemed to prefer keeping her on the far side of the tape at crime scenes! The threat of site contamination should she decide to throw something at a snarky co-worker was just too high! Her little attempt to discipline Owen for disrespecting her cost how many lives?

                              What made her a "natural leader"? She was serving coffee at the police station and getting knocked about trying to break up pub brawls! Again, this is what made her such an implausible character who got by purely on producer love.

                              Despite her supposed role, Gwen was as much a source of trouble as anything else. Oh, and who was it who had to go charging off and spill everything about Torchwood to Dr. (double-agent) Patanjali? Oh, right, that would be Gwen! Because her "natural leadership" skills routinely cause her to dive in face-first without considering the ramifications of anything she does!

                              As I also mentioned in another post, Jack didn't really need a moral compass. He was in fact doing fairly well. He also was not lacking in human emotion, since all his stories involved him being angsty over something or another.

                              If anything it was Gwen, not Jack, who was the loose cannon of Torchwood.


                              --- In torchwood@yahoogroups.com, dizzheart@... wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              >

                              >


                              > ??? Not after COE, there aren't.  Even  before that, Jack and Gwen, who are
                              > natural leaders, were the de facto heads  of the team.

                              > Janice
                              >
                              >
                              >





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