Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [torchwood] Re: New Torchwood series 'possible' but it won't be for a whi...

Expand Messages
  • dizzheart@aol.com
    In a message dated 4/5/2012 4:28:01 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, videoking@wowway.com writes: I agree, I really loved series 1 and 2 of Torchwood. C of E I
    Message 1 of 23 , Apr 5, 2012
    • 0 Attachment
      In a message dated 4/5/2012 4:28:01 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
      videoking@... writes:

      I agree, I really loved series 1 and 2 of Torchwood. C of E I barely got
      through and, even though I watched MD to the end I won't be buying the dvds
      or giving it a rewatch.
      It's not what Torchwood is suppose to be and in general is rotten TV
      viewing
      IMHO of course. >>>



      I liked the episodic format of Series 1 and 2 better because we saw more
      -- more different aliens, more different gadgets, more different situations
      -- each week was something new. I suppose it's hard to keep that up.

      I thought Children of Earth was brilliant, but it was so painful that I
      watched it once and haven't gone back to it. Peter Capaldi was terrific. I
      kept the set and will watch it again sometime.

      I have to admit, I haven't watched all of Miracle Day yet. It's too
      Americanized. It's lost its flavor. Jack and Gwen are somehow subsidiary
      characters now. Rex is a lox. Nothing in it is as fresh, new and interesting
      as original Torchwood was. I keep meaning to watch the rest of it so I can
      at least say that I have, but each time I have settled down to watch
      something I have had something better at hand.

      I wish RTD had stayed in the UK. Maybe now that he's gone back there,
      he'll get his magic back.

      Janice






      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • dizzheart@aol.com
      Jack, with his power of seeming immortality, is effectively a superhero. He needs someone or something to be accountable to or he ll turn into a monster
      Message 2 of 23 , Apr 8, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        Jack, with his power of seeming immortality, is effectively a superhero.
        He needs someone or something to be accountable to or he'll turn into a
        monster (power tends to corrupt, etc.). The Doctor, the only other person
        Jack would listen to, isn't around that much. Jack needs Gwen for balance.

        Challenging Jack, making him think, also provides dramatic conflict;
        without it it's act one teaser, monster appears, by act three it's smershed, act
        four they all go down the pub.

        This is not to say that Gwen isn't badly written, over the top sometimes
        -- but then so is Jack.

        Janice

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • psionycx
        Ummm....you do realize that there are other people working for Torchwood besides Gwen right? Indeed, the writers actually sort of ruined the whole Gwen is the
        Message 3 of 23 , Apr 9, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          Ummm....you do realize that there are other people working for Torchwood besides Gwen right? Indeed, the writers actually sort of ruined the whole "Gwen is the voice of the common man" thing by adding backstories that showed that Tosh and Owen were not originally alien catchers either. Ironically, only Ianto had actually worked for Torchwood before he met Jack.

          Even more contrived was Gwen's rapid ascension from people's constable to veritable leader of the team! Yes, by all means, let's just put the beat cop with virtually no experience in charge! Ianto, Owen and Tosh must have either been too busy with pet projects to take over the role while Jack was gone, or else they surrendered in the face of Gwen's superior ability to nag!

          Gwen, someone who once used Retcon to make her fiance forget that she had just confessed to having an affair, was hardly a "moral compass" sort of person compared to anyone else in the Hub. She was unquestionably perkier and whined a lot more. I suppose that provides some "accountability" in the form of a hen-pecked fellow's desire to just get a nag off his back.

          The biggest threat that Jack really posed on his own was apathy. Had he felt less obligation to the team or the world he would have bailed. The Doctor is just as prone to popping up in London as in Cardiff (more so actually). So waiting by the Rift was a gamble. Plus it's not as if someone with his knowledge couldn't get off of Earth or out of that time period if he really wanted to.

          To me it has always seemed that RTD imagined Gwen as a breakout character like Rose was for the Doctor. Didn't really work out though. She's barely likeable, insufferably self-righteous, hypocritical and frankly it's an unexplained mystery as to what Jack sees in her.

          Sure Owen wanted to bang her. But we all saw what sort of gal he chose to pull while in possession of a pheromone spray that could have gotten him ANY woman (or man). His minimum requirement for a shag is "breathing". Rhys was just a classic victim of her passive-aggressiveness. As was poor Andy the "oh-you-didn't-come-to-my-wedding-to-see-me-marry-another-man" ex-boyfriend.

          Sadly, Jack probably would have done better with his boyfriend as a moral compass. But that relationship fell because poor Ianto lacked Gwen's impregnable plot armour.



          --- In torchwood@yahoogroups.com, dizzheart@... wrote:
          >
          > Jack, with his power of seeming immortality, is effectively a superhero.
          > He needs someone or something to be accountable to or he'll turn into a
          > monster (power tends to corrupt, etc.). The Doctor, the only other person
          > Jack would listen to, isn't around that much. Jack needs Gwen for balance.
          >
          > Challenging Jack, making him think, also provides dramatic conflict;
          > without it it's act one teaser, monster appears, by act three it's smershed, act
          > four they all go down the pub.
          >
          > This is not to say that Gwen isn't badly written, over the top sometimes
          > -- but then so is Jack.
          >
          > Janice
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • dizzheart@aol.com
          In a message dated 4/9/2012 5:50:22 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, dsyrek@comcast.net writes: Ummm....you do realize that there are other people working for
          Message 4 of 23 , Apr 9, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            In a message dated 4/9/2012 5:50:22 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
            dsyrek@... writes:

            Ummm....you do realize that there are other people working for Torchwood
            besides Gwen right? >>


            ??? Not after COE, there aren't. Even before that, Jack and Gwen, who are
            natural leaders, were the de facto heads of the team.

            Janice



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • psionycx
            I was going back to your original post about how Jack s immortality made him a superhero , and technically he wasn t immortal for most of MD, which meant that
            Message 5 of 23 , Apr 9, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              I was going back to your original post about how Jack's immortality made him a "superhero", and technically he wasn't immortal for most of MD, which meant that what he really needed was someone to keep his *** alive!

              But going back to your point, other than plot armor that keeps her alive after everyone else has died, Gwen offers nothing especially unique in terms of balancing out Jack's personality. Indeed, if anything she literally demonstrated on "Day One" that she is reckless to the point of being a menace herself. No wonder the police seemed to prefer keeping her on the far side of the tape at crime scenes! The threat of site contamination should she decide to throw something at a snarky co-worker was just too high! Her little attempt to discipline Owen for disrespecting her cost how many lives?

              What made her a "natural leader"? She was serving coffee at the police station and getting knocked about trying to break up pub brawls! Again, this is what made her such an implausible character who got by purely on producer love.

              Despite her supposed role, Gwen was as much a source of trouble as anything else. Oh, and who was it who had to go charging off and spill everything about Torchwood to Dr. (double-agent) Patanjali? Oh, right, that would be Gwen! Because her "natural leadership" skills routinely cause her to dive in face-first without considering the ramifications of anything she does!

              As I also mentioned in another post, Jack didn't really need a moral compass. He was in fact doing fairly well. He also was not lacking in human emotion, since all his stories involved him being angsty over something or another.

              If anything it was Gwen, not Jack, who was the loose cannon of Torchwood.


              --- In torchwood@yahoogroups.com, dizzheart@... wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ??? Not after COE, there aren't. Even before that, Jack and Gwen, who are
              > natural leaders, were the de facto heads of the team.
              >
              > Janice
              >
              >
              >
            • dizzheart@aol.com
              What made her a natural leader was then when circumstances happened in which she had to lead, she did. RTD is interested in powerful female characters who
              Message 6 of 23 , Apr 9, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                What made her a natural leader was then when circumstances happened in
                which she had to lead, she did.

                RTD is interested in powerful female characters who remain female, rather
                than redesigned males. Lots of other writers aren't.

                Janice



                In a message dated 4/9/2012 6:26:59 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                dsyrek@... writes:




                I was going back to your original post about how Jack's immortality made
                him a "superhero", and technically he wasn't immortal for most of MD, which
                meant that what he really needed was someone to keep his *** alive!

                But going back to your point, other than plot armor that keeps her alive
                after everyone else has died, Gwen offers nothing especially unique in terms
                of balancing out Jack's personality. Indeed, if anything she literally
                demonstrated on "Day One" that she is reckless to the point of being a menace
                herself. No wonder the police seemed to prefer keeping her on the far side
                of the tape at crime scenes! The threat of site contamination should she
                decide to throw something at a snarky co-worker was just too high! Her little
                attempt to discipline Owen for disrespecting her cost how many lives?

                What made her a "natural leader"? She was serving coffee at the police
                station and getting knocked about trying to break up pub brawls! Again, this
                is what made her such an implausible character who got by purely on producer
                love.

                Despite her supposed role, Gwen was as much a source of trouble as
                anything else. Oh, and who was it who had to go charging off and spill everything
                about Torchwood to Dr. (double-agent) Patanjali? Oh, right, that would be
                Gwen! Because her "natural leadership" skills routinely cause her to dive in
                face-first without considering the ramifications of anything she does!

                As I also mentioned in another post, Jack didn't really need a moral
                compass. He was in fact doing fairly well. He also was not lacking in human
                emotion, since all his stories involved him being angsty over something or
                another.

                If anything it was Gwen, not Jack, who was the loose cannon of Torchwood.

                --- In _torchwood@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:torchwood@yahoogroups.com) ,
                dizzheart@... wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ??? Not after COE, there aren't. Even before that, Jack and Gwen, who
                are
                > natural leaders, were the de facto heads of the team.
                >
                > Janice






                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • pfyre
                Actually what Ianto lacked was RTD s complete and utter infatuation with Eve Myles. pfyre /A true friend is someone who thinks that you are a good egg even
                Message 7 of 23 , Apr 9, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  Actually what Ianto lacked was RTD's complete and utter infatuation with
                  Eve Myles.

                  pfyre

                  /A true friend is someone who thinks that you are a good egg even though
                  he knows that you are slightly cracked. /Robert Meltzer


                  On 4/9/2012 8:49 PM, psionycx wrote:
                  > Sadly, Jack probably would have done better with his boyfriend as a moral compass. But that relationship fell because poor Ianto lacked Gwen's impregnable plot armour.
                • pfyre
                  Sorry there is nothing about Gwen that I find to indicate that she s a natural leader - more that she s self-centered and feels entitled and simply PUSHED
                  Message 8 of 23 , Apr 9, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Sorry there is nothing about Gwen that I find to indicate that she's a
                    'natural leader' - more that she's self-centered and feels entitled and
                    simply PUSHED her way into leading while Jack was off with the Doctor.

                    As for RTD's writing of powerful female characters - it wasn't so much
                    that he was writing Gwen as strong but that he was tooling the whole
                    damned show as a showcase for Eve and didn't give a damn what characters
                    became collateral damage in her wake. Sorry but he has no real clue
                    about writing a long term strong female character than virtually any
                    other male scriptwriter out there.

                    I didn't start out hating or even disliking Gwen but by the time
                    'Adrift' was broadcast she was and continues to be completely
                    irredeemable to me.

                    Hell, in MD she's preaching to Oswald about all the bad people she'd
                    dealt with as a constable - BS - she wasn't constable long enough that
                    have that sort of experience - it was painfully obvious from the get go
                    of series one that she was so new she practically squeaked when she walked.

                    pfyre

                    /A true friend is someone who thinks that you are a good egg even though
                    he knows that you are slightly cracked. /Robert Meltzer


                    On 4/9/2012 9:33 PM, dizzheart@... wrote:
                    > What made her a natural leader was then when circumstances happened in
                    > which she had to lead, she did.
                    >
                    > RTD is interested in powerful female characters who remain female, rather
                    > than redesigned males. Lots of other writers aren't.
                    >
                    > Janice
                    >
                  • dizzheart@aol.com
                    Wow, that s quite a diatribe. May I ask why you punished yourself by watching the show so faithfully? (I can tell your comments are based on having studied
                    Message 9 of 23 , Apr 9, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Wow, that's quite a diatribe. May I ask why you punished yourself by
                      watching the show so faithfully? (I can tell your comments are based on having
                      studied it pretty closely - as opposed to a cursory knowledge based on
                      having seen a couple of eps.)

                      I like Eve Myles too, but I don't have to like her to respect her
                      character. The same for RTD.

                      Janice


                      In a message dated 4/9/2012 9:03:59 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                      oshaun@... writes:




                      Sorry there is nothing about Gwen that I find to indicate that she's a
                      'natural leader' - more that she's self-centered and feels entitled and
                      simply PUSHED her way into leading while Jack was off with the Doctor.

                      As for RTD's writing of powerful female characters - it wasn't so much
                      that he was writing Gwen as strong but that he was tooling the whole
                      damned show as a showcase for Eve and didn't give a damn what characters
                      became collateral damage in her wake. Sorry but he has no real clue
                      about writing a long term strong female character than virtually any
                      other male scriptwriter out there.

                      I didn't start out hating or even disliking Gwen but by the time
                      'Adrift' was broadcast she was and continues to be completely
                      irredeemable to me.

                      Hell, in MD she's preaching to Oswald about all the bad people she'd
                      dealt with as a constable - BS - she wasn't constable long enough that
                      have that sort of experience - it was painfully obvious from the get go
                      of series one that she was so new she practically squeaked when she
                      walked.

                      pfyre







                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • pfyre
                      I watched the show initially for John s Capt. Jack Harkness and then for Jack and Ianto. Halfway thru the first series I was ready to be done with Gwen and as
                      Message 10 of 23 , Apr 9, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I watched the show initially for John's Capt. Jack Harkness and then for
                        Jack and Ianto. Halfway thru the first series I was ready to be done
                        with Gwen and as I said by the time Adrift aired I found her
                        irredeemable and nauseating.

                        I only know of Eve Myles from a few articles, etc. and interviews
                        connected with Torchwood. She doesn't make a great impression on me as
                        an actress [I was never impressed by her Gwyneth in 'Unquiet Dead'] but
                        I don't 'hate' Eve - I hate Gwen and how Torchwood was distorted to make
                        her special.

                        pfyre

                        /A true friend is someone who thinks that you are a good egg even though
                        he knows that you are slightly cracked. /Robert Meltzer


                        On 4/10/2012 12:20 AM, dizzheart@... wrote:
                        > Wow, that's quite a diatribe. May I ask why you punished yourself by
                        > watching the show so faithfully? (I can tell your comments are based on having
                        > studied it pretty closely - as opposed to a cursory knowledge based on
                        > having seen a couple of eps.)
                        >
                        > I like Eve Myles too, but I don't have to like her to respect her
                        > character. The same for RTD.
                        >
                        > Janice
                        >
                        >
                        > In a message dated 4/9/2012 9:03:59 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                        > oshaun@... writes:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Sorry there is nothing about Gwen that I find to indicate that she's a
                        > 'natural leader' - more that she's self-centered and feels entitled and
                        > simply PUSHED her way into leading while Jack was off with the Doctor.
                        >
                        > As for RTD's writing of powerful female characters - it wasn't so much
                        > that he was writing Gwen as strong but that he was tooling the whole
                        > damned show as a showcase for Eve and didn't give a damn what characters
                        > became collateral damage in her wake. Sorry but he has no real clue
                        > about writing a long term strong female character than virtually any
                        > other male scriptwriter out there.
                        >
                        > I didn't start out hating or even disliking Gwen but by the time
                        > 'Adrift' was broadcast she was and continues to be completely
                        > irredeemable to me.
                        >
                        > Hell, in MD she's preaching to Oswald about all the bad people she'd
                        > dealt with as a constable - BS - she wasn't constable long enough that
                        > have that sort of experience - it was painfully obvious from the get go
                        > of series one that she was so new she practically squeaked when she
                        > walked.
                        >
                        > pfyre
                      • dizzheart@aol.com
                        Well answered. I can only say that, although you make a number of good points about inconsistencies in plots and such, I still like both Jack and Gwen, and
                        Message 11 of 23 , Apr 9, 2012
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Well answered. I can only say that, although you make a number of good
                          points about inconsistencies in plots and such, I still like both Jack and
                          Gwen, and still grieve for Tosh, Ianto and Owen.

                          Janice


                          In a message dated 4/9/2012 10:20:32 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                          oshaun@... writes:




                          I watched the show initially for John's Capt. Jack Harkness and then for
                          Jack and Ianto. Halfway thru the first series I was ready to be done
                          with Gwen and as I said by the time Adrift aired I found her
                          irredeemable and nauseating.

                          I only know of Eve Myles from a few articles, etc. and interviews
                          connected with Torchwood. She doesn't make a great impression on me as
                          an actress [I was never impressed by her Gwyneth in 'Unquiet Dead'] but
                          I don't 'hate' Eve - I hate Gwen and how Torchwood was distorted to make
                          her special.

                          pfyre

                          /A true friend is someone who thinks that you are a good egg even though
                          he knows that you are slightly cracked. /Robert Meltzer

                          On 4/10/2012 12:20 AM, _dizzheart@..._ (mailto:dizzheart@...)
                          wrote:
                          > Wow, that's quite a diatribe. May I ask why you punished yourself by
                          > watching the show so faithfully? (I can tell your comments are based on
                          having
                          > studied it pretty closely - as opposed to a cursory knowledge based on
                          > having seen a couple of eps.)
                          >
                          > I like Eve Myles too, but I don't have to like her to respect her
                          > character. The same for RTD.
                          >
                          > Janice
                          >






                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Daren :)
                          Open Question ?? I ve often puzzled as to why RTD Killed off Tosh Owen and then Lanto Like do you think that knowing that the end of season two the show would
                          Message 12 of 23 , Apr 9, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Open Question ??

                            I've often puzzled as to why RTD Killed off Tosh Owen and then Lanto

                            Like do you think that knowing that the end of season two the show would not be picked up for a further year RTD decided a What the Fcuk and decided to kill off some cast members to spice things up ??

                            And then seeing the reaction he decided to kill off another cast member ???

                            Do you think the underlying reason for making the crew of Torchwood helpless on the run was a way of doing a sort of MacGyver seeing how they would work without all the really cool toys or the Power or Authority ???

                            Why do you think the remaining members of Torchwood were still being hunted down at the beginning of MD with Frobisher dead who else is issuing those blank papers to kill off the Torchwood crew ????

                            Daren
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: dizzheart@...
                            To: torchwood@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 4:17 PM
                            Subject: Re: [torchwood] Re: New Torchwood series 'possible' but it won't be for a whi...



                            Well answered. I can only say that, although you make a number of good
                            points about inconsistencies in plots and such, I still like both Jack and
                            Gwen, and still grieve for Tosh, Ianto and Owen.

                            Janice


                            In a message dated 4/9/2012 10:20:32 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                            oshaun@... writes:

                            I watched the show initially for John's Capt. Jack Harkness and then for
                            Jack and Ianto. Halfway thru the first series I was ready to be done
                            with Gwen and as I said by the time Adrift aired I found her
                            irredeemable and nauseating.

                            I only know of Eve Myles from a few articles, etc. and interviews
                            connected with Torchwood. She doesn't make a great impression on me as
                            an actress [I was never impressed by her Gwyneth in 'Unquiet Dead'] but
                            I don't 'hate' Eve - I hate Gwen and how Torchwood was distorted to make
                            her special.

                            pfyre

                            /A true friend is someone who thinks that you are a good egg even though
                            he knows that you are slightly cracked. /Robert Meltzer

                            On 4/10/2012 12:20 AM, _dizzheart@..._ (mailto:dizzheart@...)
                            wrote:
                            > Wow, that's quite a diatribe. May I ask why you punished yourself by
                            > watching the show so faithfully? (I can tell your comments are based on
                            having
                            > studied it pretty closely - as opposed to a cursory knowledge based on
                            > having seen a couple of eps.)
                            >
                            > I like Eve Myles too, but I don't have to like her to respect her
                            > character. The same for RTD.
                            >
                            > Janice
                            >

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • dizzheart@aol.com
                            The rumors I read at the time said RTD wanted to bring in Freema Agyeman as Martha Jones as a permanent team member, and also to find a spot for Russell
                            Message 13 of 23 , Apr 9, 2012
                            • 0 Attachment
                              The rumors I read at the time said RTD wanted to bring in Freema Agyeman
                              as Martha Jones as a permanent team member, and also to find a spot for
                              Russell Tovey. When it got to COE, it was thought that might be the last
                              Torchwood, so Ianto was killed off as part of the drama.

                              Dunno how true any of that was.

                              Janice




                              In a message dated 4/9/2012 11:25:30 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                              twoshedsluxuryyacht@... writes:




                              Open Question ??

                              I've often puzzled as to why RTD Killed off Tosh Owen and then Lanto







                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Daren :)
                              Are you saying that Lanto Tosh and Owen were rid off to make way for Freema and Russel Tovey ??? Daren ... From: dizzheart@aol.com To:
                              Message 14 of 23 , Apr 9, 2012
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Are you saying that Lanto Tosh and Owen were rid off to make way for Freema and Russel Tovey ???

                                Daren
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: dizzheart@...
                                To: torchwood@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 4:28 PM
                                Subject: Re: [torchwood] Re: New Torchwood series 'possible' but it won't be for a whi...



                                The rumors I read at the time said RTD wanted to bring in Freema Agyeman
                                as Martha Jones as a permanent team member, and also to find a spot for
                                Russell Tovey. When it got to COE, it was thought that might be the last
                                Torchwood, so Ianto was killed off as part of the drama.

                                Dunno how true any of that was.

                                Janice




                                In a message dated 4/9/2012 11:25:30 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                                twoshedsluxuryyacht@... writes:

                                Open Question ??

                                I've often puzzled as to why RTD Killed off Tosh Owen and then Lanto

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • dizzheart@aol.com
                                No, I m not; I m saying those were the RUMORS I saw. For whatever reason, if true, it didn t work out. Janice In a message dated 4/9/2012 11:37:03 P.M.
                                Message 15 of 23 , Apr 9, 2012
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  No, I'm not; I'm saying those were the RUMORS I saw. For whatever reason,
                                  if true, it didn't work out.

                                  Janice



                                  In a message dated 4/9/2012 11:37:03 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                                  twoshedsluxuryyacht@... writes:




                                  Are you saying that Lanto Tosh and Owen were rid off to make way for Freema
                                  and Russel Tovey ???

                                  Daren
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: _dizzheart@..._ (mailto:dizzheart@...)
                                  To: _torchwood@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:torchwood@yahoogroups.com)
                                  Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2012 4:28 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [torchwood] Re: New Torchwood series 'possible' but it won't
                                  be for a whi...

                                  The rumors I read at the time said RTD wanted to bring in Freema Agyeman
                                  as Martha Jones as a permanent team member, and also to find a spot for
                                  Russell Tovey. When it got to COE, it was thought that might be the last
                                  Torchwood, so Ianto was killed off as part of the drama.

                                  Dunno how true any of that was.

                                  Janice

                                  In a message dated 4/9/2012 11:25:30 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                                  _twoshedsluxuryyacht@..._ (mailto:twoshedsluxuryyacht@...)
                                  writes:

                                  Open Question ??

                                  I've often puzzled as to why RTD Killed off Tosh Owen and then Lanto







                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • sem
                                  Frankly, even though she came across as mousy, I thought Tosh became the strongest female character at the end. I can t see Gwen doing what Tosh did. Even the
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Apr 10, 2012
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Frankly, even though she came across as mousy, I thought Tosh became the
                                    strongest female character at the end. I can't see Gwen doing what Tosh did.
                                    Even the way Tosh came into Torchwood was pretty impressive, even though she
                                    was trying to save her mother. And of course spending who knows how long in
                                    that empty jail cell.

                                    And she was brave and very smart. In the episode where they're in WWII, she
                                    saved the day with a lot of guts and street smarts. And towards the end,
                                    with Owen, well... there's never a dry eye when I watch that. She was
                                    terrific.

                                    Just my 2 cents (or pence or whatever).

                                    Catzy




                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: torchwood@yahoogroups.com [mailto:torchwood@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                    Of pfyre
                                    Sent: Monday, April 09, 2012 21:04
                                    To: torchwood@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [torchwood] Re: New Torchwood series 'possible' but it won't be
                                    for a whi...

                                    Sorry there is nothing about Gwen that I find to indicate that she's a
                                    'natural leader' - more that she's self-centered and feels entitled and
                                    simply PUSHED her way into leading while Jack was off with the Doctor.
                                  • kaki4@nc.rr.com
                                    I agree with pfyre and also wathced the show a lot. I love Captain Jack and Ianto (together and spearate), loved Tosh, loved the idea of the show, and could
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Apr 10, 2012
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      I agree with pfyre and also wathced the show a lot. I love Captain Jack and Ianto (together and spearate), loved Tosh, loved the idea of the show, and could survive Gwen. To me she was the irritating Barney Fife tyoe character. But when people say she was a strong female lead or a moral compass or any of that stuff, I just disagree. I like the idea of strong female characters, but I'll take Tosh over Gwen any day (I do not want kids thinking the things she did make a strong, good woman!).

                                      Thinking of RTD and strong female characters, give me Debbie Novatny (can't think of the UK QAF character name right now). flawed, brash, but human and so powerful (to me anyway) as a female character.

                                      So, back to me thinking of how could we go back to TW in Wales with Andy, perhaps. Or add new folks, then keep them around long enough to care about them!

                                      Kaki



                                      ---- dizzheart@... wrote:
                                      > Wow, that's quite a diatribe. May I ask why you punished yourself by
                                      > watching the show so faithfully? (I can tell your comments are based on having
                                      > studied it pretty closely - as opposed to a cursory knowledge based on
                                      > having seen a couple of eps.)
                                      >
                                      > I like Eve Myles too, but I don't have to like her to respect her
                                      > character. The same for RTD.
                                      >
                                      > Janice
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > In a message dated 4/9/2012 9:03:59 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                                      > oshaun@... writes:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Sorry there is nothing about Gwen that I find to indicate that she's a
                                      > 'natural leader' - more that she's self-centered and feels entitled and
                                      > simply PUSHED her way into leading while Jack was off with the Doctor.
                                      >
                                      > As for RTD's writing of powerful female characters - it wasn't so much
                                      > that he was writing Gwen as strong but that he was tooling the whole
                                      > damned show as a showcase for Eve and didn't give a damn what characters
                                      > became collateral damage in her wake. Sorry but he has no real clue
                                      > about writing a long term strong female character than virtually any
                                      > other male scriptwriter out there.
                                      >
                                      > I didn't start out hating or even disliking Gwen but by the time
                                      > 'Adrift' was broadcast she was and continues to be completely
                                      > irredeemable to me.
                                      >
                                      > Hell, in MD she's preaching to Oswald about all the bad people she'd
                                      > dealt with as a constable - BS - she wasn't constable long enough that
                                      > have that sort of experience - it was painfully obvious from the get go
                                      > of series one that she was so new she practically squeaked when she
                                      > walked.
                                      >
                                      > pfyre
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • dizzheart@aol.com
                                      Personally I don t think there will ever be any further Torchwood done. Everybody s getting older and that ship has sailed. Janice [Non-text portions of this
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Apr 10, 2012
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Personally I don't think there will ever be any further Torchwood done.
                                        Everybody's getting older and that ship has sailed.

                                        Janice




                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Jack
                                        Captain jack need to hook up with doctor again. Sent via my LG Marquee from Boost Mobile
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Apr 10, 2012
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Captain jack need to hook up with doctor again.

                                          Sent via my LG Marquee from Boost Mobile

                                          kaki4@... wrote:

                                          >I agree with pfyre and also wathced the show a lot. I love Captain Jack and Ianto (together and spearate), loved Tosh, loved the idea of the show, and could survive Gwen. To me she was the irritating Barney Fife tyoe character. But when people say she was a strong female lead or a moral compass or any of that stuff, I just disagree. I like the idea of strong female characters, but I'll take Tosh over Gwen any day (I do not want kids thinking the things she did make a strong, good woman!).
                                          >
                                          >Thinking of RTD and strong female characters, give me Debbie Novatny (can't think of the UK QAF character name right now). flawed, brash, but human and so powerful (to me anyway) as a female character.
                                          >
                                          >So, back to me thinking of how could we go back to TW in Wales with Andy, perhaps. Or add new folks, then keep them around long enough to care about them!
                                          >
                                          >Kaki
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >---- dizzheart@... wrote:
                                          >> Wow, that's quite a diatribe. May I ask why you punished yourself by
                                          >> watching the show so faithfully? (I can tell your comments are based on having
                                          >> studied it pretty closely - as opposed to a cursory knowledge based on
                                          >> having seen a couple of eps.)
                                          >>
                                          >> I like Eve Myles too, but I don't have to like her to respect her
                                          >> character. The same for RTD.
                                          >>
                                          >> Janice
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >> In a message dated 4/9/2012 9:03:59 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
                                          >> oshaun@... writes:
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >> Sorry there is nothing about Gwen that I find to indicate that she's a
                                          >> 'natural leader' - more that she's self-centered and feels entitled and
                                          >> simply PUSHED her way into leading while Jack was off with the Doctor.
                                          >>
                                          >> As for RTD's writing of powerful female characters - it wasn't so much
                                          >> that he was writing Gwen as strong but that he was tooling the whole
                                          >> damned show as a showcase for Eve and didn't give a damn what characters
                                          >> became collateral damage in her wake. Sorry but he has no real clue
                                          >> about writing a long term strong female character than virtually any
                                          >> other male scriptwriter out there.
                                          >>
                                          >> I didn't start out hating or even disliking Gwen but by the time
                                          >> 'Adrift' was broadcast she was and continues to be completely
                                          >> irredeemable to me.
                                          >>
                                          >> Hell, in MD she's preaching to Oswald about all the bad people she'd
                                          >> dealt with as a constable - BS - she wasn't constable long enough that
                                          >> have that sort of experience - it was painfully obvious from the get go
                                          >> of series one that she was so new she practically squeaked when she
                                          >> walked.
                                          >>
                                          >> pfyre
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          >
                                        • psionycx
                                          Tosh had TONS of potential! The problem was (aside from RTD s whole All-About-Eve thing) was that as the show progressed they seemed to be aiming for the
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Apr 11, 2012
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Tosh had TONS of potential! The problem was (aside from RTD's whole All-About-Eve thing) was that as the show progressed they seemed to be aiming for the lowest intellectual factor.

                                            Consider: the Jack that we first had in Doctor Who was REALLY smart. Smart enough to crosswire the "pan-dimensional surfboard", a piece of amazingly advanced technology, into the console of the TARDIS, a piece of technology more advanced than anything that humans will EVER build in the Whoniverse!

                                            Yet over the course of the show, it seems as if Jack's overall intelligence drops every time he dies and his resurrected. This seems to be meant to make him less geeky and more of a stock action guy who just has occasional flashes of brilliance (usually when it's too late to be useful).

                                            Tosh had the same problem as compared to Gwen. Other than nagging and an increasing proficiency with firearms (remember that she had none when she started) Gwen was almost terminally stupid (didn't know what a GPS was!), but loved to run around and get into scraps. Tosh was far too prone to thinking logically and approaching alien threats as a scientific problem. Kind of the way the Doctor taught UNIT to do during his tenure with them. There's a reason why a physician/xenologist like Martha quickly rose in the UNIT ranks.

                                            Back at Torchwood, rank is a function of bluster it seems. Tosh lacked this trait. She was more oriented towards applying knowledge to any situation. RTD's love affair with the geeky seemed to have been brief. Could Tosh have made a much more exciting character, and possible leader? Absolutely! Martha demonstrated the merits of the smart action girl. The science heroine who has brains instead of just bombast.

                                            Perhaps Tosh just wasn't Sarah Palin enough. Being good with a gun and uninterested in thinking seems to be a virtue in these troubled times. Tosh was (IMHO) prettier than Gwen (if only they had dressed her better) WAY smarter and had WAAAAAYYY more potential as a character.

                                            --- In torchwood@yahoogroups.com, "sem" <catz@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Frankly, even though she came across as mousy, I thought Tosh became the
                                            > strongest female character at the end. I can't see Gwen doing what Tosh did.
                                            > Even the way Tosh came into Torchwood was pretty impressive, even though she
                                            > was trying to save her mother. And of course spending who knows how long in
                                            > that empty jail cell.
                                            >
                                            > And she was brave and very smart. In the episode where they're in WWII, she
                                            > saved the day with a lot of guts and street smarts. And towards the end,
                                            > with Owen, well... there's never a dry eye when I watch that. She was
                                            > terrific.
                                            >
                                            > Just my 2 cents (or pence or whatever).
                                            >
                                            > Catzy
                                            >
                                            >
                                          • JoAnne Briere
                                            I wasn t going into those discusssion as too many times, I ve heard why are you around if you dislike it so much?   Well things are I love TW - with a team.
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Apr 11, 2012
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              I wasn't going into those discusssion as too many times, I've heard "why are you around if you dislike it so much?"
                                               
                                              Well things are I love TW - with a team. I could dislike and dismiss all about Gwen, because there was enough of everyone else around, to find pleasure in TW. I never like her, found her to not be a good female role model at all. I could never befriend someone like Gwen, sleeping around, hurting people, not thinking nor stepping back. Judging harschly others, refusing to have anything said remotely true about her.
                                               
                                              Tosh, Owen, Ianto made up enough air time, to make the serie challenging, interesting and flawed.
                                               
                                              The writer created his characters, loved some, hated some; it's his priviledge. It's mine to agree, disagree.
                                              COE was not TW - it was a story in his folder, he wanted it out, and it put some of the TW people in it , throughtout. It gave a chance for Ianto to show his brain and action, for Rhys to be smarter than his wife, yet as cluelss at that. But the story was something else, in which he interspeded some bits of.
                                               
                                              Jack kept changing, too fast for reality. Long life doesn't mean the man can adapt quickly to all situation, actually it would be the opposition.
                                               
                                              Anyway, I won't be around for more TW - as MD was really the end of the line for me. Does it mean I should reminisce and talk about the way it was and it attracted us.
                                               
                                              Johanne

                                              De : psionycx <dsyrek@...>
                                              À : torchwood@yahoogroups.com
                                              Envoyé le : mercredi 11 avril 2012 11h20
                                              Objet : [torchwood] Re: New Torchwood series 'possible' but it won't be for a whi...

                                              Tosh had TONS of potential! The problem was (aside from RTD's whole All-About-Eve thing) was that as the show progressed they seemed to be aiming for the lowest intellectual factor.

                                              Consider: the Jack that we first had in Doctor Who was REALLY smart. Smart enough to crosswire the "pan-dimensional surfboard", a piece of amazingly advanced technology, into the console of the TARDIS, a piece of technology more advanced than anything that humans will EVER build in the Whoniverse!

                                              Yet over the course of the show, it seems as if Jack's overall intelligence drops every time he dies and his resurrected. This seems to be meant to make him less geeky and more of a stock action guy who just has occasional flashes of brilliance (usually when it's too late to be useful).

                                              Tosh had the same problem as compared to Gwen. Other than nagging and an increasing proficiency with firearms (remember that she had none when she started) Gwen was almost terminally stupid (didn't know what a GPS was!), but loved to run around and get into scraps. Tosh was far too prone to thinking logically and approaching alien threats as a scientific problem. Kind of the way the Doctor taught UNIT to do during his tenure with them. There's a reason why a physician/xenologist like Martha quickly rose in the UNIT ranks.

                                              Back at Torchwood, rank is a function of bluster it seems. Tosh lacked this trait. She was more oriented towards applying knowledge to any situation. RTD's love affair with the geeky seemed to have been brief. Could Tosh have made a much more exciting character, and possible leader? Absolutely! Martha demonstrated the merits of the smart action girl. The science heroine who has brains instead of just bombast.

                                              Perhaps Tosh just wasn't Sarah Palin enough. Being good with a gun and uninterested in thinking seems to be a virtue in these troubled times. Tosh was (IMHO) prettier than Gwen (if only they had dressed her better) WAY smarter and had WAAAAAYYY more potential as a character.

                                              --- In torchwood@yahoogroups.com, "sem" <catz@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Frankly, even though she came across as mousy, I thought Tosh became the
                                              > strongest female character at the end. I can't see Gwen doing what Tosh did.
                                              > Even the way Tosh came into Torchwood was pretty impressive, even though she
                                              > was trying to save her mother. And of course spending who knows how long in
                                              > that empty jail cell.
                                              >
                                              > And she was brave and very smart. In the episode where they're in WWII, she
                                              > saved the day with a lot of guts and street smarts. And towards the end,
                                              > with Owen, well... there's never a dry eye when I watch that. She was
                                              > terrific.
                                              >
                                              > Just my 2 cents (or pence or whatever).
                                              >
                                              > Catzy
                                              >
                                              >




                                              ------------------------------------

                                              Yahoo! Groups Links



                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • JoAnne Briere
                                              I though Gareth David-Lloyd was an interesting actor; with good lines and decent storytelling, I think as an actor he could go place.     De : pfyre
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Apr 11, 2012
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                I though Gareth David-Lloyd was an interesting actor; with good lines and decent storytelling, I think as an actor he could go place.
                                                 
                                                 

                                                De : pfyre <oshaun@...>
                                                À : torchwood@yahoogroups.com
                                                Envoyé le : lundi 9 avril 2012 23h53
                                                Objet : Re: [torchwood] Re: New Torchwood series 'possible' but it won't be for a whi...

                                                Actually what Ianto lacked was RTD's complete and utter infatuation with
                                                Eve Myles.

                                                pfyre

                                                /A true friend is someone who thinks that you are a good egg even though
                                                he knows that you are slightly cracked. /Robert Meltzer


                                                On 4/9/2012 8:49 PM, psionycx wrote:
                                                > Sadly, Jack probably would have done better with his boyfriend as a moral compass. But that relationship fell because poor Ianto lacked Gwen's impregnable plot armour.


                                                ------------------------------------

                                                Yahoo! Groups Links



                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • JoAnne Briere
                                                I wholeheartely agree with this post.   Johanne De : psionycx À : torchwood@yahoogroups.com Envoyé le : lundi 9 avril 2012 21h26
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Apr 11, 2012
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  I wholeheartely agree with this post.
                                                   
                                                  Johanne

                                                  De : psionycx <dsyrek@...>
                                                  À : torchwood@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Envoyé le : lundi 9 avril 2012 21h26
                                                  Objet : [torchwood] Re: New Torchwood series 'possible' but it won't be for a whi...

                                                  I was going back to your original post about how Jack's immortality made him a "superhero", and technically he wasn't immortal for most of MD, which meant that what he really needed was someone to keep his *** alive!

                                                  But going back to your point, other than plot armor that keeps her alive after everyone else has died, Gwen offers nothing especially unique in terms of balancing out Jack's personality. Indeed, if anything she literally demonstrated on "Day One" that she is reckless to the point of being a menace herself. No wonder the police seemed to prefer keeping her on the far side of the tape at crime scenes! The threat of site contamination should she decide to throw something at a snarky co-worker was just too high! Her little attempt to discipline Owen for disrespecting her cost how many lives?

                                                  What made her a "natural leader"? She was serving coffee at the police station and getting knocked about trying to break up pub brawls! Again, this is what made her such an implausible character who got by purely on producer love.

                                                  Despite her supposed role, Gwen was as much a source of trouble as anything else. Oh, and who was it who had to go charging off and spill everything about Torchwood to Dr. (double-agent) Patanjali? Oh, right, that would be Gwen! Because her "natural leadership" skills routinely cause her to dive in face-first without considering the ramifications of anything she does!

                                                  As I also mentioned in another post, Jack didn't really need a moral compass. He was in fact doing fairly well. He also was not lacking in human emotion, since all his stories involved him being angsty over something or another.

                                                  If anything it was Gwen, not Jack, who was the loose cannon of Torchwood.


                                                  --- In torchwood@yahoogroups.com, dizzheart@... wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >

                                                  >


                                                  > ??? Not after COE, there aren't.  Even  before that, Jack and Gwen, who are
                                                  > natural leaders, were the de facto heads  of the team.

                                                  > Janice
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >





                                                  ------------------------------------

                                                  Yahoo! Groups Links



                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.