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SPOILERS - episode 7

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  • pfyre
    SPOILERS s p o i l e r s p a c e As they kept trying to do in the BTS videos - to sum it up in one word - to sum up Immortal Sins in one word - would be
    Message 1 of 11 , Aug 20, 2011
      SPOILERS


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      As they kept trying to do in the BTS videos - to sum it up in one word -
      to sum up 'Immortal Sins' in one word - would be 'wow'. But while there
      is excitement behind that 'wow' there is also horror and disgust and
      compassion and understanding and heart-wrenching angst and anger so-so
      much more!

      First let me say - I was VERY relieved that when all was said and done
      that Jack did NOT immediately forgive Gwen. As I've stated elsewhere
      that I hope the rift between Jack and Gwen doesn't 'just disappear' with
      via his understanding and forgiveness - she was truly willing to kill
      him, to offer him up as a sacrifice to save her daughter and there was
      and is no damned way that 'the bad guys' would simply let Anwen much
      less anyone else go.

      Yep, I do "get" the whole mother-thing, I do. But while initially I can
      see her doing thing in a desperate panic - they drove apparently for
      hours! The panic wears off but by that time she got into her
      holier-than-thou, sanctimonious mindset - berating Jack, scolding him,
      blaming him, wagging her finger at him and never got out of it. Then
      near the end when she's trying to justify what she's doing, what she's
      about to do? It was nauseating for her trying to say that Jack's long
      life was a good exchange for him giving his life her daughter. It truly
      is one thing when someone volunteers to give up his life for another -
      it is completely different when that choice is taken from them. We've
      seen Jack more than willing to do ANYTHING to save the team, his friends
      and the world and I have no doubts whatsoever that this mortal Jack
      would have been willing to put himself into the exchange to save Anwen
      but Gwen NEVER ever gave him a choice. Hell, it didn't even seemed like
      she gave any other possible considerations a serious thought. So much
      for the kick-ass superTorchwoodagent Gwen Cooper. The same woman that
      admits that she loved the danger and the excitement of Torchwood even as
      she was complaining about it. The same woman who said she loved it when
      they lost teammates because it meant she was a survivor and special! *gag*

      *deep breath* *deep deep breath* *letting it go*

      What we learned of Jack and his history was positively eye-opening. I've
      always felt that the Jack we met at the start of Torchwood had gone
      through hell and back after he parted ways with the Doctor to make Jack
      as we saw back at the first series premiere. I've always loved the
      multilayered portrayal of Jack that John has gifted the show and viewers
      with. The smiling, charming, shameless flirt who can be making
      double-entendres left and right and can be doping you with Retcon to
      protect Torchwood and its secrets without batting an eye. A man who can
      make the hard decisions - even decisions no one should ever ever have to
      make and stand behind them and live with the consequences. RTD and John
      were absolutely right - this is a keyhole insight into what has made
      Jack the way he is. It also explains his reticence in sharing knowledge
      of his immortality, his reticence in showing or allowing himself to
      care, to fall in love and why he had such a hard time acknowledging just
      what Ianto was to him.

      The torture at the hands of the fanatics was difficult to watch - not
      because of the blood - because honestly we did not see alot of it - it
      was the intensity of the scene - Jack begging Angelo to save him, the
      relentlessness of the crowd, the hopelessness Jack must have felt, the
      helplessness....

      Several people have been pointing out the religious aspects of the ep -
      I'd be willing to bet that Jack was never Christian at least not in the
      sense of the current terminology. He's never indicated in the past
      either when he was with the Doctor or in the eps of Torchwood that he
      was Christian. Now it could be said be said that this incident with
      Angelo and his betrayal of Jack to the fanatics that tortured him and
      then tried to sell him - did cause him to 'lose his religion' or in
      other words his faith in love and humanity.

      I 'get' that Angelo was freaked out by Jack's apparent resurrection and
      conflicted over his own nature versus what the church had taught him
      since childhood but there is no way that Jack would not see what Angelo
      did as pretty much the ultimate betrayal. We know that Jack found it in
      himself to forgive his team at the end of 'End of Days' and I do think
      in his way Jack did and does forgive Angelo but he doesn't forget
      easily. I'm certain it's not something that he likes to bring to mind
      often but faced with Angelo he would never forget that the man he fell
      in love with, the man he came back for killed him and then gave him over
      to fanatics that tortured him by killing him repeatedly, horrifically.

      It also throws a new light on Jack's reactions to the 'Year The Never
      Happened' and the horrific tortures at the Master's orders AND his
      reaction to his team being so hostile when he showed up at the start of
      series 2.

      It explains the sheer depth of his anger with Ianto when they discovered
      that Ianto has smuggled his partially converted girlfriend into the
      depths of the Hub - that Jack did view it as yet another betrayal.

      I wanted to reach into the screen and comfort Jack. He's been through so
      much pain and betrayal and been told that he is 'wrong' by the Doctor no
      less.

      Ultimately, it's a wonder that Jack is as sane and well adjusted as he
      is. And thank god, John has the strength and personality and talent to
      bring Jack to life in such a resonating, 'real' manner.

      jmo
      pfyre
      --

      '/Precious and rare all Love is, gender matters not./'
    • Michael
      * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * You can criticise Gwen for holding Jack responsible for her family being in danger and offering him up to his enemies without
      Message 2 of 11 , Aug 21, 2011
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        You can criticise Gwen for holding Jack responsible for her family being in danger and offering him up to his enemies without giving him any say in the matter but you would have to agree that as much as she wants this 'Miracle' mess to end she is not willing to sacrifice her child or the rest of her family to end it which is more then you can say about Jack (refer to COE).
        Still, knowing what he has been through and how much he has suffered during his long life I suppose he can be forgiven for that and all the other stuff he's done that we know about (and don't know about). If you have lived his kind of life and seen all the things that he has then I don't think you remain totally sane at the end of it.

        --- In torchwood@yahoogroups.com, pfyre <oshaun@...> wrote:
        >
        > SPOILERS
        >
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        > s
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        > a
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        > e
        >
        >
        > As they kept trying to do in the BTS videos - to sum it up in one word -
        > to sum up 'Immortal Sins' in one word - would be 'wow'. But while there
        > is excitement behind that 'wow' there is also horror and disgust and
        > compassion and understanding and heart-wrenching angst and anger so-so
        > much more!
        >
        > First let me say - I was VERY relieved that when all was said and done
        > that Jack did NOT immediately forgive Gwen. As I've stated elsewhere
        > that I hope the rift between Jack and Gwen doesn't 'just disappear' with
        > via his understanding and forgiveness - she was truly willing to kill
        > him, to offer him up as a sacrifice to save her daughter and there was
        > and is no damned way that 'the bad guys' would simply let Anwen much
        > less anyone else go.
        >
        > Yep, I do "get" the whole mother-thing, I do. But while initially I can
        > see her doing thing in a desperate panic - they drove apparently for
        > hours! The panic wears off but by that time she got into her
        > holier-than-thou, sanctimonious mindset - berating Jack, scolding him,
        > blaming him, wagging her finger at him and never got out of it. Then
        > near the end when she's trying to justify what she's doing, what she's
        > about to do? It was nauseating for her trying to say that Jack's long
        > life was a good exchange for him giving his life her daughter. It truly
        > is one thing when someone volunteers to give up his life for another -
        > it is completely different when that choice is taken from them. We've
        > seen Jack more than willing to do ANYTHING to save the team, his friends
        > and the world and I have no doubts whatsoever that this mortal Jack
        > would have been willing to put himself into the exchange to save Anwen
        > but Gwen NEVER ever gave him a choice. Hell, it didn't even seemed like
        > she gave any other possible considerations a serious thought. So much
        > for the kick-ass superTorchwoodagent Gwen Cooper. The same woman that
        > admits that she loved the danger and the excitement of Torchwood even as
        > she was complaining about it. The same woman who said she loved it when
        > they lost teammates because it meant she was a survivor and special! *gag*
        >
        > *deep breath* *deep deep breath* *letting it go*
        >
        > What we learned of Jack and his history was positively eye-opening. I've
        > always felt that the Jack we met at the start of Torchwood had gone
        > through hell and back after he parted ways with the Doctor to make Jack
        > as we saw back at the first series premiere. I've always loved the
        > multilayered portrayal of Jack that John has gifted the show and viewers
        > with. The smiling, charming, shameless flirt who can be making
        > double-entendres left and right and can be doping you with Retcon to
        > protect Torchwood and its secrets without batting an eye. A man who can
        > make the hard decisions - even decisions no one should ever ever have to
        > make and stand behind them and live with the consequences. RTD and John
        > were absolutely right - this is a keyhole insight into what has made
        > Jack the way he is. It also explains his reticence in sharing knowledge
        > of his immortality, his reticence in showing or allowing himself to
        > care, to fall in love and why he had such a hard time acknowledging just
        > what Ianto was to him.
        >
        > The torture at the hands of the fanatics was difficult to watch - not
        > because of the blood - because honestly we did not see alot of it - it
        > was the intensity of the scene - Jack begging Angelo to save him, the
        > relentlessness of the crowd, the hopelessness Jack must have felt, the
        > helplessness....
        >
        > Several people have been pointing out the religious aspects of the ep -
        > I'd be willing to bet that Jack was never Christian at least not in the
        > sense of the current terminology. He's never indicated in the past
        > either when he was with the Doctor or in the eps of Torchwood that he
        > was Christian. Now it could be said be said that this incident with
        > Angelo and his betrayal of Jack to the fanatics that tortured him and
        > then tried to sell him - did cause him to 'lose his religion' or in
        > other words his faith in love and humanity.
        >
        > I 'get' that Angelo was freaked out by Jack's apparent resurrection and
        > conflicted over his own nature versus what the church had taught him
        > since childhood but there is no way that Jack would not see what Angelo
        > did as pretty much the ultimate betrayal. We know that Jack found it in
        > himself to forgive his team at the end of 'End of Days' and I do think
        > in his way Jack did and does forgive Angelo but he doesn't forget
        > easily. I'm certain it's not something that he likes to bring to mind
        > often but faced with Angelo he would never forget that the man he fell
        > in love with, the man he came back for killed him and then gave him over
        > to fanatics that tortured him by killing him repeatedly, horrifically.
        >
        > It also throws a new light on Jack's reactions to the 'Year The Never
        > Happened' and the horrific tortures at the Master's orders AND his
        > reaction to his team being so hostile when he showed up at the start of
        > series 2.
        >
        > It explains the sheer depth of his anger with Ianto when they discovered
        > that Ianto has smuggled his partially converted girlfriend into the
        > depths of the Hub - that Jack did view it as yet another betrayal.
        >
        > I wanted to reach into the screen and comfort Jack. He's been through so
        > much pain and betrayal and been told that he is 'wrong' by the Doctor no
        > less.
        >
        > Ultimately, it's a wonder that Jack is as sane and well adjusted as he
        > is. And thank god, John has the strength and personality and talent to
        > bring Jack to life in such a resonating, 'real' manner.
        >
        > jmo
        > pfyre
        > --
        >
        > '/Precious and rare all Love is, gender matters not./'
        >
      • pfyre
        ... Holding him responsible for Torchwood being in her life and all the resulting effects sounds like a perfectly logical Gwen argument and it is for sh!t. She
        Message 3 of 11 , Aug 21, 2011
          On 8/21/2011 9:58 AM, Michael wrote:
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          > You can criticise Gwen for holding Jack responsible for her family being in danger and offering him up to his enemies without giving him any say in the matter but you would have to agree that as much as she wants this 'Miracle' mess to end she is not willing to sacrifice her child or the rest of her family to end it which is more then you can say about Jack (refer to COE).
          > Still, knowing what he has been through and how much he has suffered during his long life I suppose he can be forgiven for that and all the other stuff he's done that we know about (and don't know about). If you have lived his kind of life and seen all the things that he has then I don't think you remain totally sane at the end of it.
          >

          Holding him responsible for Torchwood being in her life and all the
          resulting effects sounds like a perfectly logical Gwen argument and it
          is for sh!t. She is the one that pursued Torchwood and Jack - not the
          other way around and she has been a compulsive liar from the get-go
          lying to Rhys about whether or not she had been at the site of the
          murder with the rest of the police and there was no reason to lie!

          As for Jack - we've always known him to make the truly horrendous
          decisions - often choosing the good of the many over the good of the one
          or the few and facing the consequences. Gwen has never truly had to face
          the results of her choices and actions - not really. So - nope I don't
          forgive her for betraying Jack and getting all sanctimonious and
          self-centered Gwen. And I don't see Jack in the same light - he got
          where he is after centuries of living and surviving horrendous
          situations and still for the most part he IS a good man. I can't put
          Gwen in that same category.

          pfyre

          --

          */Precious and rare all Love is, gender matters not./*
        • Lori
          ... I m just adding my complete agreement with pfyre on this subject of Gwen. You explain this so much better than I could. My gosh, to blame Jack for
          Message 4 of 11 , Aug 21, 2011
            --- In torchwood@yahoogroups.com, pfyre <oshaun@...> wrote:
            >
            > On 8/21/2011 9:58 AM, Michael wrote:
            > > *
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            > > You can criticise Gwen for holding Jack responsible for her family being in danger and offering him up to his enemies without giving him any say in the matter but you would have to agree that as much as she wants this 'Miracle' mess to end she is not willing to sacrifice her child or the rest of her family to end it which is more then you can say about Jack (refer to COE).
            > > Still, knowing what he has been through and how much he has suffered during his long life I suppose he can be forgiven for that and all the other stuff he's done that we know about (and don't know about). If you have lived his kind of life and seen all the things that he has then I don't think you remain totally sane at the end of it.
            > >
            >
            > Holding him responsible for Torchwood being in her life and all the
            > resulting effects sounds like a perfectly logical Gwen argument and it
            > is for sh!t. She is the one that pursued Torchwood and Jack - not the
            > other way around and she has been a compulsive liar from the get-go
            > lying to Rhys about whether or not she had been at the site of the
            > murder with the rest of the police and there was no reason to lie!
            >
            > As for Jack - we've always known him to make the truly horrendous
            > decisions - often choosing the good of the many over the good of the one
            > or the few and facing the consequences. Gwen has never truly had to face
            > the results of her choices and actions - not really. So - nope I don't
            > forgive her for betraying Jack and getting all sanctimonious and
            > self-centered Gwen. And I don't see Jack in the same light - he got
            > where he is after centuries of living and surviving horrendous
            > situations and still for the most part he IS a good man. I can't put
            > Gwen in that same category.
            >
            > pfyre
            >
            > --
            I'm just adding my complete agreement with pfyre on this subject of Gwen. You explain this so much better than I could. My gosh, to blame Jack for everything that's happening; like it's something he wanted or knew was happening. Gwen's very good at putting the blame on everyone else but where she should...herself.

            Lori


            >
            > */Precious and rare all Love is, gender matters not./*
            >
          • pfyre
            ... I also meant to add - comparing Jack s choice at the end of COE to Gwen s choice in ep 7 is like comparing apples to dark matter - barely in the same realm
            Message 5 of 11 , Aug 21, 2011
              On 8/21/2011 10:27 AM, pfyre wrote:
              > On 8/21/2011 9:58 AM, Michael wrote:
              >> *
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              >> You can criticise Gwen for holding Jack responsible for her family
              >> being in danger and offering him up to his enemies without giving him
              >> any say in the matter but you would have to agree that as much as she
              >> wants this 'Miracle' mess to end she is not willing to sacrifice her
              >> child or the rest of her family to end it which is more then you can
              >> say about Jack (refer to COE).
              >> Still, knowing what he has been through and how much he has suffered
              >> during his long life I suppose he can be forgiven for that and all
              >> the other stuff he's done that we know about (and don't know about).
              >> If you have lived his kind of life and seen all the things that he
              >> has then I don't think you remain totally sane at the end of it.
              >>
              >
              > Holding him responsible for Torchwood being in her life and all the
              > resulting effects sounds like a perfectly logical Gwen argument and it
              > is for sh!t. She is the one that pursued Torchwood and Jack - not the
              > other way around and she has been a compulsive liar from the get-go
              > lying to Rhys about whether or not she had been at the site of the
              > murder with the rest of the police and there was no reason to lie!
              >
              > As for Jack - we've always known him to make the truly horrendous
              > decisions - often choosing the good of the many over the good of the
              > one or the few and facing the consequences. Gwen has never truly had
              > to face the results of her choices and actions - not really. So - nope
              > I don't forgive her for betraying Jack and getting all sanctimonious
              > and self-centered Gwen. And I don't see Jack in the same light - he
              > got where he is after centuries of living and surviving horrendous
              > situations and still for the most part he IS a good man. I can't put
              > Gwen in that same category.
              >
              > pfyre


              I also meant to add - comparing Jack's choice at the end of COE to
              Gwen's choice in ep 7 is like comparing apples to dark matter - barely
              in the same realm of comparison. Jack CHOSE to save the children of
              Earth - MILLIONS of lives by sacrificing his grandson and knowing full
              well that his daughter would be lost him in the process - but he still
              did it because it had to be done. What he had done years earlier was
              somewhat along the same lines of thought - if they hadn't turned over
              those children - the 456 would have unleashed the virus and killed
              millions if not billions of humans at that point. This is not even in
              the same realm as someone choosing the sacrifice a 'friend', a
              'colleague', someone she's repeatedly proclaimed to care about, to love,
              someone she's lusted after and from all accounts still lusts after - she
              CHOSE to sacrifice Jack. She made herself or at least tried to make
              herself feel better by blaming him for all the bad things that happened
              to her and to the world, etc. But it was an excuse - a filmsy,
              hole-ridden excuse. The Jack we've known since 'The Empty Child'
              straight through to episode 7 of MD is at heart a good man who became
              even better after his travels with the Doctor and despite or perhaps IN
              SPITE of not choosing the immortality dropped on him like a bomb by Rose
              and the Time Vortex - he's done his best to do good when he can and try
              to save innocents and help prepare Earth for the future. Has he been
              completely successful - obviously not - but then despite the immortality
              he is only 51st century human and not omnipotent - hell he's not even a
              Time Lord - but he's done a damned good job trying to live up to a noble
              standard.

              We've seen a mortal Jack offer up his life for others at the end of 'The
              Doctor Dances' [stopping the German bomb] and in 'Parting of the Ways'
              [leading the defense against the Daleks - even though he knew it was
              suicide]. We've seen an immortal Jack offer up his life many times in
              Torchwood and even during subsequent visits with the Doctor [the Year
              that never was, the confrontation between the Doctor, Davros, the
              Daleks, etc.]. I have absolutely NO doubt whatsoever that he would've if
              need be offered himself in exchange for Anwen - Rhys and Gwen's mum. But
              that was never a choice given to him - it was made for him by a
              self-righteous, admittedly self-important, self-centered sanctimonious
              woman who used to be his colleague in Torchwood. Two very different
              circumstances. And Gwen's actions AFTER her initial panic - during those
              HOURS of driving are in my opinion inexcusable - she tried to justify it
              but all she did was nauseate me.

              pfyre
              --
              */Precious and rare all Love is, gender matters not./*
            • loribw411@aol.com
              ... I also meant to add - comparing Jack s choice at the end of COE to Gwen s choice in ep 7 is like comparing apples to dark matter - barely in the same realm
              Message 6 of 11 , Aug 21, 2011
                On 8/21/2011 10:27 AM, pfyre wrote:
                > On 8/21/2011 9:58 AM, Michael wrote:
                >> *
                >
                >> *
                >> *
                >> You can criticise Gwen for holding Jack responsible for her family
                >> being in danger and offering him up to his enemies without giving him
                >> any say in the matter but you would have to agree that as much as she
                >> wants this 'Miracle' mess to end she is not willing to sacrifice her
                >> child or the rest of her family to end it which is more then you can
                >> say about Jack (refer to COE).
                >> Still, knowing what he has been through and how much he has suffered
                >> during his long life I suppose he can be forgiven for that and all
                >> the other stuff he's done that we know about (and don't know about).
                >> If you have lived his kind of life and seen all the things that he
                >> has then I don't think you remain totally sane at the end of it.
                >>
                >
                > Holding him responsible for Torchwood being in her life and all the
                > resulting effects sounds like a perfectly logical Gwen argument and it
                > is for sh!t. She is the one that pursued Torchwood and Jack - not the
                > other way around and she has been a compulsive liar from the get-go
                > lying to Rhys about whether or not she had been at the site of the
                > murder with the rest of the police and there was no reason to lie!
                >
                > As for Jack - we've always known him to make the truly horrendous
                > decisions - often choosing the good of the many over the good of the
                > one or the few and facing the consequences. Gwen has never truly had
                > to face the results of her choices and actions - not really. So - nope
                > I don't forgive her for betraying Jack and getting all sanctimonious
                > and self-centered Gwen. And I don't see Jack in the same light - he
                > got where he is after centuries of living and surviving horrendous
                > situations and still for the most part he IS a good man. I can't put
                > Gwen in that same category.
                >
                > pfyre

                I also meant to add - comparing Jack's choice at the end of COE to
                Gwen's choice in ep 7 is like comparing apples to dark matter - barely
                in the same realm of comparison. Jack CHOSE to save the children of
                Earth - MILLIONS of lives by sacrificing his grandson and knowing full
                well that his daughter would be lost him in the process - but he still
                did it because it had to be done. What he had done years earlier was
                somewhat along the same lines of thought - if they hadn't turned over
                those children - the 456 would have unleashed the virus and killed
                millions if not billions of humans at that point. This is not even in
                the same realm as someone choosing the sacrifice a 'friend', a
                'colleague', someone she's repeatedly proclaimed to care about, to love,
                someone she's lusted after and from all accounts still lusts after - she
                CHOSE to sacrifice Jack. She made herself or at least tried to make
                herself feel better by blaming him for all the bad things that happened
                to her and to the world, etc. But it was an excuse - a filmsy,
                hole-ridden excuse. The Jack we've known since 'The Empty Child'
                straight through to episode 7 of MD is at heart a good man who became
                even better after his travels with the Doctor and despite or perhaps IN
                SPITE of not choosing the immortality dropped on him like a bomb by Rose
                and the Time Vortex - he's done his best to do good when he can and try
                to save innocents and help prepare Earth for the future. Has he been
                completely successful - obviously not - but then despite the immortality
                he is only 51st century human and not omnipotent - hell he's not even a
                Time Lord - but he's done a damned good job trying to live up to a noble
                standard.

                We've seen a mortal Jack offer up his life for others at the end of 'The
                Doctor Dances' [stopping the German bomb] and in 'Parting of the Ways'
                [leading the defense against the Daleks - even though he knew it was
                suicide]. We've seen an immortal Jack offer up his life many times in
                Torchwood and even during subsequent visits with the Doctor [the Year
                that never was, the confrontation between the Doctor, Davros, the
                Daleks, etc.]. I have absolutely NO doubt whatsoever that he would've if
                need be offered himself in exchange for Anwen - Rhys and Gwen's mum. But
                that was never a choice given to him - it was made for him by a
                self-righteous, admittedly self-important, self-centered sanctimonious
                woman who used to be his colleague in Torchwood. Two very different
                circumstances. And Gwen's actions AFTER her initial panic - during those
                HOURS of driving are in my opinion inexcusable - she tried to justify it
                but all she did was nauseate me.

                pfyre


                **All I can say is you and I can continue to talk about Gwen..but those who positively love her will never admit she does anything wrong. They don't see her faults and will always justify anything and everything she does. I'm in complete agreement with you on Gwen and obviously Capt Jack.
                Lori

                --
                */Precious and rare all Love is, gender matters not./*









                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Joni
                Spoilers and speculation below @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Loved the episode - but I have to say, Gwen and Jack have both made some rather substantial
                Message 7 of 11 , Aug 21, 2011
                  Spoilers and speculation below

                  @
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                  @
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                  Loved the episode - but I have to say, Gwen and Jack have both made some
                  rather substantial mistakes in their lives. Jack has made some selfish
                  decisions along the way. So has Gwen. Neither of them were blameless in
                  that whole cockup. As a mother I get what Gwen did. Not saying it was
                  right, but I get it. And Jack did tell her that now that he was mortal he
                  wasn't going to let anyone kill him, even if it meant her life. Now, we
                  know that Jack doesn't want to go with those people because of his past
                  experiences with the whole tied up and tortured end of things. But that's
                  not what Gwen is thinking. She's thinking that here's a man who has lived
                  multiple lifetimes possibly standing in the way of her getting her daughter
                  back. And she feels like he's selfish. At least she had a bit of an
                  epiphany of why she stayed with Torchwood (an epiphany that was a long time
                  coming, and was honestly something that I thought was kind of assumed by the
                  audience all along, but then I've never been a huge Gwen fan I guess.)

                  So the three guys who were trying to buy Jack - they made a triangle with
                  their handshake. Like the image on the cellphones. Obviously Triangle guys
                  (Delta perhaps?) are different than Phicorp (whose logo is well - the Phi.).
                  So are either of them the good guys?

                  Joni



                  On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 10:58 AM, Michael <gilbeymichael11@...> wrote:

                  > *
                  > *
                  > *
                  > *
                  > *
                  > *
                  > *
                  > *
                  > *
                  > *
                  > *
                  > *
                  > *
                  > *
                  > *
                  > *
                  > *
                  > You can criticise Gwen for holding Jack responsible for her family being in
                  > danger and offering him up to his enemies without giving him any say in the
                  > matter but you would have to agree that as much as she wants this 'Miracle'
                  > mess to end she is not willing to sacrifice her child or the rest of her
                  > family to end it which is more then you can say about Jack (refer to COE).
                  > Still, knowing what he has been through and how much he has suffered during
                  > his long life I suppose he can be forgiven for that and all the other stuff
                  > he's done that we know about (and don't know about). If you have lived his
                  > kind of life and seen all the things that he has then I don't think you
                  > remain totally sane at the end of it.
                  >
                  > --- In torchwood@yahoogroups.com, pfyre <oshaun@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > SPOILERS
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > s
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > p
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > o
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > i
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > l
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > e
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > r
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > s
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > p
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > a
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > c
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > e
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > As they kept trying to do in the BTS videos - to sum it up in one word -
                  > > to sum up 'Immortal Sins' in one word - would be 'wow'. But while there
                  > > is excitement behind that 'wow' there is also horror and disgust and
                  > > compassion and understanding and heart-wrenching angst and anger so-so
                  > > much more!
                  > >
                  > > First let me say - I was VERY relieved that when all was said and done
                  > > that Jack did NOT immediately forgive Gwen. As I've stated elsewhere
                  > > that I hope the rift between Jack and Gwen doesn't 'just disappear' with
                  > > via his understanding and forgiveness - she was truly willing to kill
                  > > him, to offer him up as a sacrifice to save her daughter and there was
                  > > and is no damned way that 'the bad guys' would simply let Anwen much
                  > > less anyone else go.
                  > >
                  > > Yep, I do "get" the whole mother-thing, I do. But while initially I can
                  > > see her doing thing in a desperate panic - they drove apparently for
                  > > hours! The panic wears off but by that time she got into her
                  > > holier-than-thou, sanctimonious mindset - berating Jack, scolding him,
                  > > blaming him, wagging her finger at him and never got out of it. Then
                  > > near the end when she's trying to justify what she's doing, what she's
                  > > about to do? It was nauseating for her trying to say that Jack's long
                  > > life was a good exchange for him giving his life her daughter. It truly
                  > > is one thing when someone volunteers to give up his life for another -
                  > > it is completely different when that choice is taken from them. We've
                  > > seen Jack more than willing to do ANYTHING to save the team, his friends
                  > > and the world and I have no doubts whatsoever that this mortal Jack
                  > > would have been willing to put himself into the exchange to save Anwen
                  > > but Gwen NEVER ever gave him a choice. Hell, it didn't even seemed like
                  > > she gave any other possible considerations a serious thought. So much
                  > > for the kick-ass superTorchwoodagent Gwen Cooper. The same woman that
                  > > admits that she loved the danger and the excitement of Torchwood even as
                  > > she was complaining about it. The same woman who said she loved it when
                  > > they lost teammates because it meant she was a survivor and special!
                  > *gag*
                  > >
                  > > *deep breath* *deep deep breath* *letting it go*
                  > >
                  > > What we learned of Jack and his history was positively eye-opening. I've
                  > > always felt that the Jack we met at the start of Torchwood had gone
                  > > through hell and back after he parted ways with the Doctor to make Jack
                  > > as we saw back at the first series premiere. I've always loved the
                  > > multilayered portrayal of Jack that John has gifted the show and viewers
                  > > with. The smiling, charming, shameless flirt who can be making
                  > > double-entendres left and right and can be doping you with Retcon to
                  > > protect Torchwood and its secrets without batting an eye. A man who can
                  > > make the hard decisions - even decisions no one should ever ever have to
                  > > make and stand behind them and live with the consequences. RTD and John
                  > > were absolutely right - this is a keyhole insight into what has made
                  > > Jack the way he is. It also explains his reticence in sharing knowledge
                  > > of his immortality, his reticence in showing or allowing himself to
                  > > care, to fall in love and why he had such a hard time acknowledging just
                  > > what Ianto was to him.
                  > >
                  > > The torture at the hands of the fanatics was difficult to watch - not
                  > > because of the blood - because honestly we did not see alot of it - it
                  > > was the intensity of the scene - Jack begging Angelo to save him, the
                  > > relentlessness of the crowd, the hopelessness Jack must have felt, the
                  > > helplessness....
                  > >
                  > > Several people have been pointing out the religious aspects of the ep -
                  > > I'd be willing to bet that Jack was never Christian at least not in the
                  > > sense of the current terminology. He's never indicated in the past
                  > > either when he was with the Doctor or in the eps of Torchwood that he
                  > > was Christian. Now it could be said be said that this incident with
                  > > Angelo and his betrayal of Jack to the fanatics that tortured him and
                  > > then tried to sell him - did cause him to 'lose his religion' or in
                  > > other words his faith in love and humanity.
                  > >
                  > > I 'get' that Angelo was freaked out by Jack's apparent resurrection and
                  > > conflicted over his own nature versus what the church had taught him
                  > > since childhood but there is no way that Jack would not see what Angelo
                  > > did as pretty much the ultimate betrayal. We know that Jack found it in
                  > > himself to forgive his team at the end of 'End of Days' and I do think
                  > > in his way Jack did and does forgive Angelo but he doesn't forget
                  > > easily. I'm certain it's not something that he likes to bring to mind
                  > > often but faced with Angelo he would never forget that the man he fell
                  > > in love with, the man he came back for killed him and then gave him over
                  > > to fanatics that tortured him by killing him repeatedly, horrifically.
                  > >
                  > > It also throws a new light on Jack's reactions to the 'Year The Never
                  > > Happened' and the horrific tortures at the Master's orders AND his
                  > > reaction to his team being so hostile when he showed up at the start of
                  > > series 2.
                  > >
                  > > It explains the sheer depth of his anger with Ianto when they discovered
                  > > that Ianto has smuggled his partially converted girlfriend into the
                  > > depths of the Hub - that Jack did view it as yet another betrayal.
                  > >
                  > > I wanted to reach into the screen and comfort Jack. He's been through so
                  > > much pain and betrayal and been told that he is 'wrong' by the Doctor no
                  > > less.
                  > >
                  > > Ultimately, it's a wonder that Jack is as sane and well adjusted as he
                  > > is. And thank god, John has the strength and personality and talent to
                  > > bring Jack to life in such a resonating, 'real' manner.
                  > >
                  > > jmo
                  > > pfyre
                  > > --
                  > >
                  > > '/Precious and rare all Love is, gender matters not./'
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • pfyre
                  ... Jack has made some huge honking mistakes - nanogenes threatening to rewrite all of human DNA anyone? He has also made some huge freaking sacrifices, been
                  Message 8 of 11 , Aug 21, 2011
                    On 8/21/2011 6:54 PM, Joni wrote:
                    > Spoilers and speculation below
                    >
                    > @
                    > @
                    > @
                    > @
                    > @
                    > @
                    > @
                    > @
                    > @
                    > @
                    > @
                    > @
                    > @
                    > @
                    > @
                    >
                    > Loved the episode - but I have to say, Gwen and Jack have both made some rather substantial mistakes in their lives. Jack has made some selfish decisions along the way. So has Gwen. Neither of them were blameless in that whole cockup. As a mother I get what Gwen did. Not saying it was right, but I get it. And Jack did tell her that now that he was mortal he wasn't going to let anyone kill him, even if it meant her life. Now, we know that Jack doesn't want to go with those people because of his past experiences with the whole tied up and tortured end of things. But that's not what Gwen is thinking. She's thinking that here's a man who has lived multiple lifetimes possibly standing in the way of her getting her daughter back. And she feels like he's selfish. At least she had a bit of an epiphany of why she stayed with Torchwood (an epiphany that was a long time coming, and was honestly something that I thought was kind of assumed by the audience all along, but then I've never been a huge Gwen fan I guess.)
                    >
                    > So the three guys who were trying to buy Jack - they made a triangle with their handshake. Like the image on the cellphones. Obviously Triangle guys (Delta perhaps?) are different than Phicorp (whose logo is well - the Phi.).
                    > So are either of them the good guys?
                    >
                    > Joni

                    Jack has made some huge honking mistakes - nanogenes threatening to
                    rewrite all of human DNA anyone? He has also made some huge freaking
                    sacrifices, been abandoned, been told he was wrong, been told he could
                    not be fixed, been tortured and more. Yeah, he's made some selfish
                    decisions but on the whole as has been stated repeatedly - he was a good
                    man who became an even better man having travelled with the Doctor - a
                    man that by and large tries to do the right thing even if it's not the
                    easy thing and even if it means he will have to live with the
                    consequences of his choices. We've also seen him offer his life up when
                    he was mortal and then when he was immortal - there was no way to be
                    absolutely certain he'd comeback after Abbadon and we know he may not
                    die but he does experience the pain and has some aftereffects when he
                    revives/revived. So given a CHOICE - I could easily see him offering
                    himself up to the captors to save Anwen, Rhys and Gwen's mum - but of
                    course he was not given that chance to make the sacrifice, the choice.

                    Gwen - I'm not going there again - today - I've already been told and
                    read the riot act over being a 'Gwen hater'. Let's just say - I don't
                    think she came out to be the sympathetic party during that
                    kidnap/hostage situation where she was going to turn him over.

                    As for the three men that were trying to buy Jack - my money is on them
                    as being the ultimate entity/entities behind the whole Miracle Day
                    situation. Angelo might be involved in some fashion but I don't see him
                    as the ultimate baddie.

                    jmo
                    pfyre

                    --

                    */Precious and rare all Love is, gender matters not./*





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Lori
                    ... I can t add much to this except to say I agree, once again, with everything pfrye has said. No, I m not a huge fan of Gwen s either and get tired of people
                    Message 9 of 11 , Aug 21, 2011
                      --- In torchwood@yahoogroups.com, pfyre <oshaun@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > On 8/21/2011 6:54 PM, Joni wrote:
                      > > Spoilers and speculation below
                      > >
                      > > @
                      > > @
                      > > @
                      > > @
                      > > @
                      > > @
                      > > @
                      > > @
                      > > @
                      > > @
                      > > @
                      > > @
                      > > @
                      > > @
                      > > @
                      > >
                      > > Loved the episode - but I have to say, Gwen and Jack have both made some rather substantial mistakes in their lives. Jack has made some selfish decisions along the way. So has Gwen. Neither of them were blameless in that whole cockup. As a mother I get what Gwen did. Not saying it was right, but I get it. And Jack did tell her that now that he was mortal he wasn't going to let anyone kill him, even if it meant her life. Now, we know that Jack doesn't want to go with those people because of his past experiences with the whole tied up and tortured end of things. But that's not what Gwen is thinking. She's thinking that here's a man who has lived multiple lifetimes possibly standing in the way of her getting her daughter back. And she feels like he's selfish. At least she had a bit of an epiphany of why she stayed with Torchwood (an epiphany that was a long time coming, and was honestly something that I thought was kind of assumed by the audience all along, but then I've never been a huge Gwen fan I guess.)
                      > >
                      > > So the three guys who were trying to buy Jack - they made a triangle with their handshake. Like the image on the cellphones. Obviously Triangle guys (Delta perhaps?) are different than Phicorp (whose logo is well - the Phi.).
                      > > So are either of them the good guys?
                      > >
                      > > Joni
                      >
                      > Jack has made some huge honking mistakes - nanogenes threatening to
                      > rewrite all of human DNA anyone? He has also made some huge freaking
                      > sacrifices, been abandoned, been told he was wrong, been told he could
                      > not be fixed, been tortured and more. Yeah, he's made some selfish
                      > decisions but on the whole as has been stated repeatedly - he was a good
                      > man who became an even better man having travelled with the Doctor - a
                      > man that by and large tries to do the right thing even if it's not the
                      > easy thing and even if it means he will have to live with the
                      > consequences of his choices. We've also seen him offer his life up when
                      > he was mortal and then when he was immortal - there was no way to be
                      > absolutely certain he'd comeback after Abbadon and we know he may not
                      > die but he does experience the pain and has some aftereffects when he
                      > revives/revived. So given a CHOICE - I could easily see him offering
                      > himself up to the captors to save Anwen, Rhys and Gwen's mum - but of
                      > course he was not given that chance to make the sacrifice, the choice.
                      >
                      > Gwen - I'm not going there again - today - I've already been told and
                      > read the riot act over being a 'Gwen hater'. Let's just say - I don't
                      > think she came out to be the sympathetic party during that
                      > kidnap/hostage situation where she was going to turn him over.
                      >
                      > As for the three men that were trying to buy Jack - my money is on them
                      > as being the ultimate entity/entities behind the whole Miracle Day
                      > situation. Angelo might be involved in some fashion but I don't see him
                      > as the ultimate baddie.
                      >
                      > jmo
                      > pfyre
                      >
                      > --

                      I can't add much to this except to say I agree, once again, with everything pfrye has said. No, I'm not a huge fan of Gwen's either and get tired of people seeing her through rose colored glasses. All she does is assume it's always Jack's fault; as she's pointing her finger at him. She never gives him a chance to do anything.

                      If by chance there is another series of TW, I'm afraid RTD will get his way and make the series about Gwen. Sorry..she can't carry the show and that's when I say enough. Capt Jack IS Torchwood. He's the one who's really changed and has gone through so much; sacrificed so much; died/came back and each time he dies and/or is revived; he's going through the pain of what happened as his body is healing.

                      All Gwen does is be miss self rightous while talking out of both sides of her mouth. I truly want to see what exactly Gwen is going to sacrifice in this series as we've been told. I'll believe it if and when we actually see it.

                      Lori
                    • Joni
                      More speculation and stuff below... ... Fact of the matter for me - neither Jack nor Gwen are my favourite characters on Torchwood, so I see them both without
                      Message 10 of 11 , Aug 21, 2011
                        More speculation and stuff below...

                        On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 8:10 PM, pfyre <oshaun@...> wrote:

                        > On 8/21/2011 6:54 PM, Joni wrote:
                        > > Spoilers and speculation below
                        > >
                        > > @
                        > > @
                        > > @
                        > > @
                        > > @
                        > > @
                        > > @
                        > > @
                        > > @
                        > > @
                        > > @
                        > > @
                        > > @
                        > > @
                        > > @
                        > >
                        > > Loved the episode - but I have to say, Gwen and Jack have both made some
                        > rather substantial mistakes in their lives. Jack has made some selfish
                        > decisions along the way. So has Gwen. Neither of them were blameless in
                        > that whole cockup. As a mother I get what Gwen did. Not saying it was
                        > right, but I get it. And Jack did tell her that now that he was mortal he
                        > wasn't going to let anyone kill him, even if it meant her life. Now, we
                        > know that Jack doesn't want to go with those people because of his past
                        > experiences with the whole tied up and tortured end of things. But that's
                        > not what Gwen is thinking. She's thinking that here's a man who has lived
                        > multiple lifetimes possibly standing in the way of her getting her daughter
                        > back. And she feels like he's selfish. At least she had a bit of an
                        > epiphany of why she stayed with Torchwood (an epiphany that was a long time
                        > coming, and was honestly something that I thought was kind of assumed by the
                        > audience all along, but then I've never been a huge Gwen fan I guess.)
                        > >
                        > > So the three guys who were trying to buy Jack - they made a triangle with
                        > their handshake. Like the image on the cellphones. Obviously Triangle guys
                        > (Delta perhaps?) are different than Phicorp (whose logo is well - the Phi.).
                        > > So are either of them the good guys?
                        > >
                        > > Joni
                        >
                        > Jack has made some huge honking mistakes - nanogenes threatening to
                        > rewrite all of human DNA anyone? He has also made some huge freaking
                        > sacrifices, been abandoned, been told he was wrong, been told he could
                        > not be fixed, been tortured and more. Yeah, he's made some selfish
                        > decisions but on the whole as has been stated repeatedly - he was a good
                        > man who became an even better man having travelled with the Doctor - a
                        > man that by and large tries to do the right thing even if it's not the
                        > easy thing and even if it means he will have to live with the
                        > consequences of his choices. We've also seen him offer his life up when
                        > he was mortal and then when he was immortal - there was no way to be
                        > absolutely certain he'd comeback after Abbadon and we know he may not
                        > die but he does experience the pain and has some aftereffects when he
                        > revives/revived. So given a CHOICE - I could easily see him offering
                        > himself up to the captors to save Anwen, Rhys and Gwen's mum - but of
                        > course he was not given that chance to make the sacrifice, the choice.
                        >
                        > Gwen - I'm not going there again - today - I've already been told and
                        > read the riot act over being a 'Gwen hater'. Let's just say - I don't
                        > think she came out to be the sympathetic party during that
                        > kidnap/hostage situation where she was going to turn him over.
                        >
                        > As for the three men that were trying to buy Jack - my money is on them
                        > as being the ultimate entity/entities behind the whole Miracle Day
                        > situation. Angelo might be involved in some fashion but I don't see him
                        > as the ultimate baddie.
                        >
                        > jmo
                        > pfyre
                        >
                        > --
                        >
                        > */Precious and rare all Love is, gender matters not./*
                        >
                        >
                        Fact of the matter for me - neither Jack nor Gwen are my favourite
                        characters on Torchwood, so I see them both without rose coloured glasses.
                        And I agree that Gwen looked less than sympathetic after everything that
                        happened. It only means from a plot perspective though that she's going to
                        have to redeem herself somehow. I worry Rhys or Anwen aren't long for the
                        world, because they sure as hell won't kill Gwen (since from what I can tell
                        they've created her to be an "every man" sort of Mary Sue character). Hm. I
                        guess I'm not attached enough to either of them (or maybe equally attached
                        to both of them) to feel like either of them are to blame/are bad/made a
                        horrible choice. I think they both did what they had to do, the best way
                        they knew how. Jack has done that all along - he makes sweeping decisions
                        that he thinks are the right choices for people. He learned that from the
                        Doctor. And now Gwen has learned that from Jack. I think Gwen honestly has
                        been mad at Jack since he disappeared from Torchwood to travel with the
                        Doctor, and it's just been ramping up from there. Because let's face it,
                        she sure could have communicated with Rex and Esther about what was going on
                        - and obviously didn't - her first thought was to kidnap Jack and you don't
                        do that unless you're blaming someone for something. I mean really she's
                        been blaming Jack since the whole Miracle started. But Gwen Cooper did
                        everything to get into Torchwood, so she is ultimately responsible for
                        what's happened in her life.

                        I think that the Triangle Group is either going to be the ultimate baddies,
                        or surprising allies, I haven't decided yet :) Do we know what date the
                        Miracle happened on btw, I'm working on a theory :)

                        Joni


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Russell Fletcher
                        On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 9:20 AM, pfyre wrote: Episode 7 ... So much action! So much emotion! So much betrayal! What an episode!
                        Message 11 of 11 , Aug 21, 2011
                          On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 9:20 AM, pfyre <oshaun@...> wrote:

                          Episode 7
                          > As they kept trying to do in the BTS videos - to sum it up in one word -
                          > to sum up 'Immortal Sins' in one word - would be 'wow'. But while there
                          > is excitement behind that 'wow' there is also horror and disgust and
                          > compassion and understanding and heart-wrenching angst and anger so-so
                          > much more!

                          So much action! So much emotion! So much betrayal! What an episode!

                          IMO, even though I found parts of the episode very distasteful,
                          Episode 7 was the best episode this season so far.

                          I have been having trouble with this year's "Torchwood: Miracle Day".
                          To me the episodes prior to Episode 7 have been just dragging along.
                          True, the episodes have been going in a certain direction, but they
                          haven't had the action and emotion of episode 7. It is more like it
                          is going at a snails pace. If I ran across Torchwood for the first
                          time in episode 1 of this season.I don't know if I could continue
                          watching Torchwood.

                          Now that Torchwood has gotten up to speed, I hope it keeps it's speed
                          and intensity.

                          Russ
                          ----
                          Russell J. Fletcher pastordic@...
                          (PastorDIC) in Geocaching.
                          Battle Ground, WA
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