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great disservice

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  • Carole Maddern
    Pfyre, as ever, you articulate beautifully and clearly, thanks for your posts. I woke up today really annoyed with the whole COE destructon of Jack. When did
    Message 1 of 4 , Jul 30, 2010
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      Pfyre, as ever, you articulate beautifully and clearly, thanks for your posts. I woke up today really annoyed with the whole COE destructon of Jack. When did he suddenly become so utterly inept, dependent on others to initiate and motivate, incapable of formulating the slightest sensible plan??! I mentally listed Captain Jack's actions in COE and realised how feeble they all are, with one exception: saving Gwen and Ianto from the bomb. But every other single step he takes is disastrous, idiotic, or prompted by other people; in short RTD just about destroyed Jack's character. Why? That fantastic hero figure built up over all the DrWho and early TW arcs, then dismantled. I think 'disservice' hardly begins to cover the demolition job!
      Rant over (for now...)
      Regards to all.
    • pfyre
      Thank you for your kind words. As for Jack and the destruction of his character and the concept of Torchwood 3 - I honestly don t know what RTD was thinking
      Message 2 of 4 , Aug 1, 2010
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        Thank you for your kind words.

        As for Jack and the destruction of his character and the concept of
        Torchwood 3 - I honestly don't know what RTD was thinking unless they
        were concerned that TW might pose some sort of popularity threat to DW?

        For all that RTD seems to have nothing but praise for John and Capt
        Jack, he has consistently dealt with Jack very poorly. I know that
        many were thrilled that the Doctor and Jack spoke during Utopia and
        apparently cleared the air between them but to my view it was a cop
        out. Did I need a huge touchy-feely-squishy scene between the Doctor
        and Jack? No! But in view of the situation for Jack - the life he's
        had to lead since Rose brought him back to life permanently - making
        that fixed point in space and time - the Doctor's explanation and
        lack of remorse for his actions - abandoning Jack on the satellite
        station in 200100 - just doesn't cut it for me. His excuse that he
        was at first affected by regeneration sickness and unable to deal
        with the 'wrongness' of Jack being a fixed point in space and time
        and later he just didn't want to deal with that 'wrongness' was total
        and complete bullsh!t as far as I'm concerned.

        If that was indeed the real and complete reason for abandoning Jack
        and then trying to runaway from him when Jack finally hooked up with
        the TARDIS in Cardiff - then that destroys a bit of the Doctor's
        character and credibility for me - cause it makes the Doctor a coward
        in the worst possible way. Sure he'll face disaster and universe
        threatening catastrophes, his enemies and monsters with nary a
        thought but the idea of facing a former companion that he abandoned
        with little thought makes him want to runaway? There are times when I
        agree with some of the Doctor's nemesis. The Doctor rarely sticks
        around the deal with the aftermath of his brilliant solutions that
        also so often lead to many deaths and massive clean ups and rebuilding.

        With Jack - the initial abandonment could easily be explained and
        understood - but the Doctor really had an obligation to help the man
        who had sacrificed his life to allow the Doctor to finish his delta
        wave generator. How cruel is it to allow Jack to think the Doctor did
        not know, could not possibly know that Jack was alive on the station?
        How cruel is it to allow Jack to find out the hard way that while he
        can die he cannot remain dead? How cruel is it to then rather
        off-handedly explain that he knew Jack was alive all along and just
        didn't want to be around him because according to the Doctor Jack was
        'wrong'. The Doctor punished Jack for what Rose did to him. She
        didn't know that she had done it and was simply unable to control the
        power of the Vortex but that didn't mean that Jack was responsible
        either. Yet, the Doctor never treated Rose differently because of
        what she had done to Jack or that she had destroyed the Dalek fleet.
        So why is Rose the 'favored' companion and Jack the 'wrong' companion?

        For me it comes down to RTD and his view of the Doctor, the
        companions - most especially Rose and of Jack. RTD appears to value
        the female companions far more than the male. And in the case of
        Jack he's created a character that many many fans love - a character
        with quirks and foibles and faults - a character that rose from a
        devil may care conman to a man that does the right thing when he can
        and is capable of making the hard decisions and living with the
        consequences. Yes, I do understand that the writers cannot possibly
        make everyone happy and cannot cater to their audience in all aspects
        but I stand by my statement - RTD has done and continues to do a HUGE
        disservice to Jack and to John.

        jmo
        pfyre

        At 07:24 AM 7/30/2010, Carole Maddern, annotated:
        >Pfyre, as ever, you articulate beautifully and clearly, thanks for
        >your posts. I woke up today really annoyed with the whole COE
        >destructon of Jack. When did he suddenly become so utterly inept,
        >dependent on others to initiate and motivate, incapable of
        >formulating the slightest sensible plan??! I mentally listed Captain
        >Jack's actions in COE and realised how feeble they all are, with one
        >exception: saving Gwen and Ianto from the bomb. But every other
        >single step he takes is disastrous, idiotic, or prompted by other
        >people; in short RTD just about destroyed Jack's character. Why?
        >That fantastic hero figure built up over all the DrWho and early TW
        >arcs, then dismantled. I think 'disservice' hardly begins to cover
        >the demolition job!
        >Rant over (for now...)
        >Regards to all.
      • loribw411@aol.com
        Very well said Pfyre. I ve always had my thoughts & ideas, but you ve explained everything better than I ever could **applauding you** Lori ... From: pfyre
        Message 3 of 4 , Aug 2, 2010
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          Very well said Pfyre. I've always had my thoughts & ideas, but you've explained everything better than I ever could **applauding you**

          Lori






          -----Original Message-----
          From: pfyre <oshaun@...>
          To: torchwood@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sun, Aug 1, 2010 2:51 pm
          Subject: Re: [torchwood] great disservice





          Thank you for your kind words.

          As for Jack and the destruction of his character and the concept of
          Torchwood 3 - I honestly don't know what RTD was thinking unless they
          were concerned that TW might pose some sort of popularity threat to DW?

          For all that RTD seems to have nothing but praise for John and Capt
          Jack, he has consistently dealt with Jack very poorly. I know that
          many were thrilled that the Doctor and Jack spoke during Utopia and
          apparently cleared the air between them but to my view it was a cop
          out. Did I need a huge touchy-feely-squishy scene between the Doctor
          and Jack? No! But in view of the situation for Jack - the life he's
          had to lead since Rose brought him back to life permanently - making
          that fixed point in space and time - the Doctor's explanation and
          lack of remorse for his actions - abandoning Jack on the satellite
          station in 200100 - just doesn't cut it for me. His excuse that he
          was at first affected by regeneration sickness and unable to deal
          with the 'wrongness' of Jack being a fixed point in space and time
          and later he just didn't want to deal with that 'wrongness' was total
          and complete bullsh!t as far as I'm concerned.

          If that was indeed the real and complete reason for abandoning Jack
          and then trying to runaway from him when Jack finally hooked up with
          the TARDIS in Cardiff - then that destroys a bit of the Doctor's
          character and credibility for me - cause it makes the Doctor a coward
          in the worst possible way. Sure he'll face disaster and universe
          threatening catastrophes, his enemies and monsters with nary a
          thought but the idea of facing a former companion that he abandoned
          with little thought makes him want to runaway? There are times when I
          agree with some of the Doctor's nemesis. The Doctor rarely sticks
          around the deal with the aftermath of his brilliant solutions that
          also so often lead to many deaths and massive clean ups and rebuilding.

          With Jack - the initial abandonment could easily be explained and
          understood - but the Doctor really had an obligation to help the man
          who had sacrificed his life to allow the Doctor to finish his delta
          wave generator. How cruel is it to allow Jack to think the Doctor did
          not know, could not possibly know that Jack was alive on the station?
          How cruel is it to allow Jack to find out the hard way that while he
          can die he cannot remain dead? How cruel is it to then rather
          off-handedly explain that he knew Jack was alive all along and just
          didn't want to be around him because according to the Doctor Jack was
          'wrong'. The Doctor punished Jack for what Rose did to him. She
          didn't know that she had done it and was simply unable to control the
          power of the Vortex but that didn't mean that Jack was responsible
          either. Yet, the Doctor never treated Rose differently because of
          what she had done to Jack or that she had destroyed the Dalek fleet.
          So why is Rose the 'favored' companion and Jack the 'wrong' companion?

          For me it comes down to RTD and his view of the Doctor, the
          companions - most especially Rose and of Jack. RTD appears to value
          the female companions far more than the male. And in the case of
          Jack he's created a character that many many fans love - a character
          with quirks and foibles and faults - a character that rose from a
          devil may care conman to a man that does the right thing when he can
          and is capable of making the hard decisions and living with the
          consequences. Yes, I do understand that the writers cannot possibly
          make everyone happy and cannot cater to their audience in all aspects
          but I stand by my statement - RTD has done and continues to do a HUGE
          disservice to Jack and to John.

          jmo
          pfyre

          At 07:24 AM 7/30/2010, Carole Maddern, annotated:
          >Pfyre, as ever, you articulate beautifully and clearly, thanks for
          >your posts. I woke up today really annoyed with the whole COE
          >destructon of Jack. When did he suddenly become so utterly inept,
          >dependent on others to initiate and motivate, incapable of
          >formulating the slightest sensible plan??! I mentally listed Captain
          >Jack's actions in COE and realised how feeble they all are, with one
          >exception: saving Gwen and Ianto from the bomb. But every other
          >single step he takes is disastrous, idiotic, or prompted by other
          >people; in short RTD just about destroyed Jack's character. Why?
          >That fantastic hero figure built up over all the DrWho and early TW
          >arcs, then dismantled. I think 'disservice' hardly begins to cover
          >the demolition job!
          >Rant over (for now...)
          >Regards to all.









          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Diana Williams
          Amen. DianaW ... From: torchwood@yahoogroups.com [mailto:torchwood@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of pfyre Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 2:52 PM To:
          Message 4 of 4 , Aug 3, 2010
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            Amen.

            DianaW

            -----Original Message-----
            From: torchwood@yahoogroups.com [mailto:torchwood@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
            Of pfyre
            Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 2:52 PM
            To: torchwood@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [torchwood] great disservice

            Thank you for your kind words.

            As for Jack and the destruction of his character and the concept of
            Torchwood 3 - I honestly don't know what RTD was thinking unless they
            were concerned that TW might pose some sort of popularity threat to DW?

            For all that RTD seems to have nothing but praise for John and Capt
            Jack, he has consistently dealt with Jack very poorly. I know that
            many were thrilled that the Doctor and Jack spoke during Utopia and
            apparently cleared the air between them but to my view it was a cop
            out. Did I need a huge touchy-feely-squishy scene between the Doctor
            and Jack? No! But in view of the situation for Jack - the life he's
            had to lead since Rose brought him back to life permanently - making
            that fixed point in space and time - the Doctor's explanation and
            lack of remorse for his actions - abandoning Jack on the satellite
            station in 200100 - just doesn't cut it for me. His excuse that he
            was at first affected by regeneration sickness and unable to deal
            with the 'wrongness' of Jack being a fixed point in space and time
            and later he just didn't want to deal with that 'wrongness' was total
            and complete bullsh!t as far as I'm concerned.

            If that was indeed the real and complete reason for abandoning Jack
            and then trying to runaway from him when Jack finally hooked up with
            the TARDIS in Cardiff - then that destroys a bit of the Doctor's
            character and credibility for me - cause it makes the Doctor a coward
            in the worst possible way. Sure he'll face disaster and universe
            threatening catastrophes, his enemies and monsters with nary a
            thought but the idea of facing a former companion that he abandoned
            with little thought makes him want to runaway? There are times when I
            agree with some of the Doctor's nemesis. The Doctor rarely sticks
            around the deal with the aftermath of his brilliant solutions that
            also so often lead to many deaths and massive clean ups and rebuilding.

            With Jack - the initial abandonment could easily be explained and
            understood - but the Doctor really had an obligation to help the man
            who had sacrificed his life to allow the Doctor to finish his delta
            wave generator. How cruel is it to allow Jack to think the Doctor did
            not know, could not possibly know that Jack was alive on the station?
            How cruel is it to allow Jack to find out the hard way that while he
            can die he cannot remain dead? How cruel is it to then rather
            off-handedly explain that he knew Jack was alive all along and just
            didn't want to be around him because according to the Doctor Jack was
            'wrong'. The Doctor punished Jack for what Rose did to him. She
            didn't know that she had done it and was simply unable to control the
            power of the Vortex but that didn't mean that Jack was responsible
            either. Yet, the Doctor never treated Rose differently because of
            what she had done to Jack or that she had destroyed the Dalek fleet.
            So why is Rose the 'favored' companion and Jack the 'wrong' companion?

            For me it comes down to RTD and his view of the Doctor, the
            companions - most especially Rose and of Jack. RTD appears to value
            the female companions far more than the male. And in the case of
            Jack he's created a character that many many fans love - a character
            with quirks and foibles and faults - a character that rose from a
            devil may care conman to a man that does the right thing when he can
            and is capable of making the hard decisions and living with the
            consequences. Yes, I do understand that the writers cannot possibly
            make everyone happy and cannot cater to their audience in all aspects
            but I stand by my statement - RTD has done and continues to do a HUGE
            disservice to Jack and to John.

            jmo
            pfyre

            At 07:24 AM 7/30/2010, Carole Maddern, annotated:
            >Pfyre, as ever, you articulate beautifully and clearly, thanks for
            >your posts. I woke up today really annoyed with the whole COE
            >destructon of Jack. When did he suddenly become so utterly inept,
            >dependent on others to initiate and motivate, incapable of
            >formulating the slightest sensible plan??! I mentally listed Captain
            >Jack's actions in COE and realised how feeble they all are, with one
            >exception: saving Gwen and Ianto from the bomb. But every other
            >single step he takes is disastrous, idiotic, or prompted by other
            >people; in short RTD just about destroyed Jack's character. Why?
            >That fantastic hero figure built up over all the DrWho and early TW
            >arcs, then dismantled. I think 'disservice' hardly begins to cover
            >the demolition job!
            >Rant over (for now...)
            >Regards to all.



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