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Re: [torchwood] COE

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  • Daisy-Rose Skye
    Play nicely.  Torchwood is a tv show, not something to get too emotional over.  CoE is as it is and no amount of comment on our part is going to change
    Message 1 of 21 , Aug 4, 2009
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      Play nicely.  Torchwood is a tv show, not something to get too emotional over.  CoE is as it is and no amount of comment on our part is going to change that.
       Daisy-Rose Skye.


      Operation 'This Will Most Likely End Badly' is a go.


      At my age I have seen everything, done everything and heard everything.
      I just wish I could remember everything.




      ________________________________
      From: "flashn9wdq@..." <flashn9wdq@...>
      To: torchwood@yahoogroups.com
      Cc: Karel <jerseyjunior@...>
      Sent: Tuesday, 4 August, 2009 8:42:08 PM
      Subject: Re: [torchwood] COE

       

      ---- Karel <jerseyjunior@ comcast.net> wrote:
      > > Why are people so anxious to tell others how they should act and feel? I'm
      > glad you liked it so much. I wish I had. I really dislike when people tell
      > me to get over it. It's not your concern. I pay to watch this show, the
      > writer gets paid to write it. Why can't the viewer say, hey, I didn't like
      > that part? Do we have to follow along blindly like sheep all time?
      >
      See other comments left for different responder.

      > Let me ask you - did you watch season 1 and 2? Do you own the DVDs? Is COE
      > the same universe as Torchwood storyline? Which way would you like TW4 to
      > go? Back to the orginial premise?
      >
      Yes, i both watched and own TW 1 & 2. I also plan on purchasing the CD's of the 4 audio events. Yes, I believe that COE is in the same universe as the Torchwood storyline. Thus my comment as such. As for which way i would like TW 4 to go - no real thoughts there. Most likley up to the writer/s. It is sorta like asking me how I would have liked TW 2 to go after the ending of TW 1. I am not sure just what you mean by the original premise but am guessing you mean back to catching aliens and defending. Yeah, i liked that. I tend to like action stories more than deep political/emotional (yes, some is needed)/social stories (like how much of BSG was devoted to). All not very well said but I hope the thought is there.




      __________________________________________________________________________________
      Find local businesses and services in your area with Yahoo!7 Local.
      Get started: http://local.yahoo.com.au

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • badblokebob
      ... I sincerely hope they don t bring him back. One of the great things about Torchwood -- and especially CoE -- is that (so far) it s a Sci-Fi Drama, not just
      Message 2 of 21 , Aug 5, 2009
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        --- In torchwood@yahoogroups.com, "Karel" <jerseyjunior@...> wrote:
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        > GDL also said this:
        >
        > AE: You may not be able to answer this, but is that even a possibility or
        > did the writers say to you, "He's dead and gone and don't even think about
        > coming back."
        > GDL: That hasn't been said to me. I can tell you that. What has been said to
        > me is "Hey, it's sci-fi, anything can happen."
        >
        > And this:
        >
        > AE: I know you couldn't tell me even if you did know, but if somehow Ianto
        > were to come back, would you like to have the character return?
        > GDL: Yeah, absolutely. Like I said, I wanted to make sure there were certain
        > elements of Ianto's life that were brought to the forefront before anything
        > tragic happened Also I think probably a lot of things were touched on and
        > hinted, and they were explained. I think if Ianto was brought back it would
        > be some sort of miracle - whether time travel, or cloning, or other - it
        > would be fun to explore.
        >
        >
        > So he's thinking about it too. To quote a movie from another sci fi
        > universe - "There is always possibilities."
        >

        I sincerely hope they don't bring him back. One of the great things about Torchwood -- and especially CoE -- is that (so far) it's a Sci-Fi Drama, not just Sci-Fi. By that I mean it also conforms to the rules of being a good Drama, not just a good Sci-Fi show, and in Drama people die and it has an impact, they don't get to magically come back a series or two later.

        Bringing Ianto back would completely ruin the impact and importance of his death. The same thing happened when they brought Rose back in Doctor Who. I'm sure it pleased some of the weaker-willed fans, but when she left the second time there was none of that "they'll never see each other again, how tragic!" stuff, just "ach well, if she wants to come back she'll just have to destroy dimensional walls again and the Doctor can fix 'em. What's the big fuss about?"

        And... actually, I'll leave out my next point because I should give it a spoiler space! So I'll move on to:

        The flipside of this is that Who is a family show on a Saturday night -- it should be big, bold, fun and have a happy ending (eventually). Torchwood, on the other hand, is pitched as Proper Adult Drama -- it's post-watershed, serious, deals with issues. This does not preclude it from having humour (to paraphrase something RTD has said many a time, Drama does not mean just Depressing), but it does mean that, in my opinion, it should stick to real-world rules more (not entirely -- it's a SF show after all -- but more). As I said at the beginning, if you go bringing back characters it undermines every single death they ever have -- why not bring back Owen and Tosh the same way? Suzie? Tommy? Any other takers?

        I loved Ianto -- easily my favourite character -- I love Torchwood, and I loved CoE. And for all these reasons I never, ever want him to come back (unless it's via something sensible, like flashbacks, and we should always be wary of those. Or, to be fair, something mad like Jack using time travel to rescue him from before his death, but this then having Serious Nasty Consequences For The Whole Of Time (eventually resulting to him being put back and dying, a la Tommy... OK, seems that story's been done. No more Ianto then, thanks!)).

        Apologies for the digression, back to my point: bringing him back via some silly made-up sci-fi conceit would ruin the impact of his death. It was tragic and heartbreaking, and a brilliant piece of TV for it.

        On a similar note, actually, is the equally controversial subject of Jack killing his own grandson. Again, this is why Torchwood is good Drama. Imagine this was a real-world situation and you're faced with killing your grandson to save millions of other children, maybe even the world, or letting your grandson live and condemning those children. In real life you don't get to stand around saying "well, there must be some other magic way I could save everyone AND keep my grandson", you have to make the choice. Jack made a choice -- an horrific one -- the kind of choice a normal person would never have to make, perhaps never could make, but it showed us so much about Jack.

        This is Good Drama. Seriously. Of course they could've come up with a cop out -- "if I adjust the polarity down two steps it should be enough to get the message out but not kill him!" -- but they didn't, because that would be rubbish. It would be a cop out. There would be no consequences. Jack wouldn't've had to make an Impossible Decision, it would just be the obvious thing to do. CoE's ending can be criticised for many things, but that impossible choice is what raises it up to a high level of quality regardless of how out-of-the-blue the frequency-whatever stuff is -- that's just sci-fi technobabble to get to the Point, the very real human decision Jack has to take.

        Actually, the more I write about it, the more I realise just how damn good an ending that is.

        We've had a lot of good miniseries on British TV of late, but for my money T:CoE is the best since State of Play (imo, one of the gold-standards of TV drama). And that's because it's uncompromising and truly realistic, because Ianto and grandson-whose-name-I-can't-even-remember die. Without that -- with entirely fictitious sci-fi get-outs to save them, or nice And Everything Was Fine non-choices to make at the end -- it would just have been another piece of blandly re-affirming genre TV, watched by about 2 million people. And while that's nice, it's even better to have a Proper Drama that is also genre, that's watched by a huge mainstream audience.

        So now I've convinced myself of something else, actually: while I love the first two seasons, CoE is in a league of its own far beyond them. Before it was a very good genre series; now it's very good television, fullstop.

        (Apologies that this reply has gone on at least ten times as long as I expected it to!)
      • michele.briere
        S P O I L E R S P A C E . . . . . . . . . I write, and I can tell you when writing a story, the main story line needs to be continued no matter which character
        Message 3 of 21 , Aug 5, 2009
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          I write, and I can tell you when writing a story, the main story line needs to be continued no matter which character it runs over. TW is about the story, not the character. When the story line needs a hit to keep it moving, or even sent into a new direction, characters are sacrificed. This is how it works.

          TW has always been about the storyline, not the characters. The main story line has always been built toward the day Earth enters the galactic playing field. The opening statement by Jack, at the beginning of every episode, states this.

          Yes, we are all unhappy at the loss of Ianto. Our hero has shown his feet of clay, too, by sacrificing his grandson. Taking in the cannon up til that point, what else could he have done? Stephen was the only child present. I don't know why this is a difficult fact for people to process. It came down to one child or millions. You make the choice. Would you truly sacrifice millions of children, which would have included your grandchild anyway when you could have saved millions with the sacrifice of one? Jack did the only thing he could.

          As for Jack and the radio frequency -give the guy a break. He was blown up. I'm sure his brains were still a little scrambled.

          And Jack is obviously in pain over these two deaths, as well as his daughter turning her back on him. Yes, he left. But the bigger question is why. Is he running? Or is he going to go and do something about it? If I were writing Jack from this point, I'd send him gunning for the 456.

          Yes, RTD has a bad habit of steamrolling over our feelings for the characters. Yes, we are hurting for the loss of Ianto. At the end of the day, it's still just a tv show. And a sign of excellent writing is when it brings out peoples' feelings.
        • Amazon X
          Well said, and I heartily agree. More below the space... ________________________________ From: michele.briere To:
          Message 4 of 21 , Aug 5, 2009
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            Well said, and I heartily agree. More below the space...




            ________________________________
            From: michele.briere <michele.briere@...>
            To: torchwood@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, August 5, 2009 11:26:37 AM
            Subject: [torchwood] Re: COE

            S
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            .
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            I write, and I can tell you when writing a story, the main story line needs to be continued no matter which character it runs over. TW is about the story, not the character. When the story line needs a hit to keep it moving, or even sent into a new direction, characters are sacrificed. This is how it works.

            TW has always been about the storyline, not the characters. The main story line has always been built toward the day Earth enters the galactic playing field. The opening statement by Jack, at the beginning of every episode, states this.

            Yes, we are all unhappy at the loss of Ianto. Our hero has shown his feet of clay, too, by sacrificing his grandson. Taking in the cannon up til that point, what else could he have done? Stephen was the only child present. I don't know why this is a difficult fact for people to process. It came down to one child or millions. You make the choice. Would you truly sacrifice millions of children, which would have included your grandchild anyway when you could have saved millions with the sacrifice of one? Jack did the only thing he could.

            As for Jack and the radio frequency -give the guy a break. He was blown up. I'm sure his brains were still a little scrambled.

            And Jack is obviously in pain over these two deaths, as well as his daughter turning her back on him. Yes, he left. But the bigger question is why. Is he running? Or is he going to go and do something about it? If I were writing Jack from this point, I'd send him gunning for the 456.

            Yes, RTD has a bad habit of steamrolling over our feelings for the characters. Yes, we are hurting for the loss of Ianto. At the end of the day, it's still just a tv show. And a sign of excellent writing is when it brings out peoples' feelings.

            **Dare I say it, RTD is a little cavalier with with our feelings, telling to just go watch something else, instead of being a little sorry for hurting our feelings, but in the end, ensemble cast shows have to have a shake up.

            Now, who wants to bet that when Jack comes back from wherever he is (I'll bet he's going to find the Doctor), Gwen will have a new Hub, new staff and new cases all going. I'm pretty sure of it, really.


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • flashn9wdq@charter.net
            Well said! dennis
            Message 5 of 21 , Aug 5, 2009
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              Well said!

              dennis

              ---- Daisy-Rose Skye <daisyrose.skye@...> wrote:
              > Play nicely.  Torchwood is a tv show, not something to get too emotional over.  CoE is as it is and no amount of comment on our part is going to change that.
              >  Daisy-Rose Skye.
              >
              >
              > Operation 'This Will Most Likely End Badly' is a go.
              >
              >
              > At my age I have seen everything, done everything and heard everything.
              > I just wish I could remember everything.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: "flashn9wdq@..." <flashn9wdq@...>
              > To: torchwood@yahoogroups.com
              > Cc: Karel <jerseyjunior@...>
              > Sent: Tuesday, 4 August, 2009 8:42:08 PM
              > Subject: Re: [torchwood] COE
              >
              >  
              >
              > ---- Karel <jerseyjunior@ comcast.net> wrote:
              > > > Why are people so anxious to tell others how they should act and feel? I'm
              > > glad you liked it so much. I wish I had. I really dislike when people tell
              > > me to get over it. It's not your concern. I pay to watch this show, the
              > > writer gets paid to write it. Why can't the viewer say, hey, I didn't like
              > > that part? Do we have to follow along blindly like sheep all time?
              > >
              > See other comments left for different responder.
              >
              > > Let me ask you - did you watch season 1 and 2? Do you own the DVDs? Is COE
              > > the same universe as Torchwood storyline? Which way would you like TW4 to
              > > go? Back to the orginial premise?
              > >
              > Yes, i both watched and own TW 1 & 2. I also plan on purchasing the CD's of the 4 audio events. Yes, I believe that COE is in the same universe as the Torchwood storyline. Thus my comment as such. As for which way i would like TW 4 to go - no real thoughts there. Most likley up to the writer/s. It is sorta like asking me how I would have liked TW 2 to go after the ending of TW 1. I am not sure just what you mean by the original premise but am guessing you mean back to catching aliens and defending. Yeah, i liked that. I tend to like action stories more than deep political/emotional (yes, some is needed)/social stories (like how much of BSG was devoted to). All not very well said but I hope the thought is there.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > __________________________________________________________________________________
              > Find local businesses and services in your area with Yahoo!7 Local.
              > Get started: http://local.yahoo.com.au
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Daisy-Rose Skye
              I fully agree with you. Jack does what is necessary regardless of the price, even to himself.  If he had been given the knowledge he needed from the start he
              Message 6 of 21 , Aug 6, 2009
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                I fully agree with you.

                Jack does what is necessary regardless of the price, even to himself.  If he had been given the knowledge he needed from the start he would have acted differently but would the outcome have been much different?
                 Daisy-Rose Skye.


                Operation 'This Will Most Likely End Badly' is a go.


                At my age I have seen everything, done everything and heard everything.
                I just wish I could remember everything.




                ________________________________
                From: michele.briere <michele.briere@...>
                To: torchwood@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, 6 August, 2009 1:26:37 AM
                Subject: [torchwood] Re: COE

                 
                S
                P
                O
                I
                L
                E
                R

                S
                P
                A
                C
                E

                .
                .
                .
                .
                .
                .
                .
                .
                .

                I write, and I can tell you when writing a story, the main story line needs to be continued no matter which character it runs over. TW is about the story, not the character. When the story line needs a hit to keep it moving, or even sent into a new direction, characters are sacrificed. This is how it works.

                TW has always been about the storyline, not the characters. The main story line has always been built toward the day Earth enters the galactic playing field. The opening statement by Jack, at the beginning of every episode, states this.

                Yes, we are all unhappy at the loss of Ianto. Our hero has shown his feet of clay, too, by sacrificing his grandson. Taking in the cannon up til that point, what else could he have done? Stephen was the only child present. I don't know why this is a difficult fact for people to process. It came down to one child or millions. You make the choice. Would you truly sacrifice millions of children, which would have included your grandchild anyway when you could have saved millions with the sacrifice of one? Jack did the only thing he could.

                As for Jack and the radio frequency -give the guy a break. He was blown up. I'm sure his brains were still a little scrambled.

                And Jack is obviously in pain over these two deaths, as well as his daughter turning her back on him. Yes, he left. But the bigger question is why. Is he running? Or is he going to go and do something about it? If I were writing Jack from this point, I'd send him gunning for the 456.

                Yes, RTD has a bad habit of steamrolling over our feelings for the characters. Yes, we are hurting for the loss of Ianto. At the end of the day, it's still just a tv show. And a sign of excellent writing is when it brings out peoples' feelings.





                __________________________________________________________________________________
                Find local businesses and services in your area with Yahoo!7 Local.
                Get started: http://local.yahoo.com.au

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Em
                ... I have to disagree. I m a writer, too; and while the storyline is important, it s the characters that make or break a show (or, in my case, a play). If
                Message 7 of 21 , Aug 6, 2009
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                  --- In torchwood@yahoogroups.com, "michele.briere" <michele.briere@...> wrote:
                  >
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                  > I write, and I can tell you when writing a story, the main story line needs to be continued no matter which character it runs over. TW is about the story, not the character. When the story line needs a hit to keep it moving, or even sent into a new direction, characters are sacrificed. This is how it works.
                  >
                  > TW has always been about the storyline, not the characters. The main story line has always been built toward the day Earth enters the galactic playing field. The opening statement by Jack, at the beginning of every episode, states this.
                  >
                  > Yes, we are all unhappy at the loss of Ianto. Our hero has shown his feet of clay, too, by sacrificing his grandson. Taking in the cannon up til that point, what else could he have done? Stephen was the only child present. I don't know why this is a difficult fact for people to process. It came down to one child or millions. You make the choice. Would you truly sacrifice millions of children, which would have included your grandchild anyway when you could have saved millions with the sacrifice of one? Jack did the only thing he could.
                  >
                  > As for Jack and the radio frequency -give the guy a break. He was blown up. I'm sure his brains were still a little scrambled.
                  >
                  > And Jack is obviously in pain over these two deaths, as well as his daughter turning her back on him. Yes, he left. But the bigger question is why. Is he running? Or is he going to go and do something about it? If I were writing Jack from this point, I'd send him gunning for the 456.
                  >
                  > Yes, RTD has a bad habit of steamrolling over our feelings for the characters. Yes, we are hurting for the loss of Ianto. At the end of the day, it's still just a tv show. And a sign of excellent writing is when it brings out peoples' feelings.
                  >

                  I have to disagree. I'm a writer, too; and while the storyline is important, it's the characters that make or break a show (or, in my case, a play). If people don't care about the characters, then how can they care about the plot? I, personally, watch tv shows for the characters, not the setting. It's why, of all the Star Trek franchises, I was most drawn to Deep Space Nine and not the others. That show had to rely on well developed characters because they were land locked, so to speak.

                  COE was so full of major plot holes, RTD really needed to bank more heavily on his characters. I think he failed miserably. Killing off a major character immediately after offing two others ruined the show for me. Good drama comes from conflict, not senseless death. Children of Earth was melodrama. Add to that RTD's disdain for his fans, and I am unwilling to give him any more of my time.
                • Karen Harrington
                  Spoiler space moved by mod... ... I agree with you about Jack having to sacirfice his own grandson.� At that point what could he do.� But I think he was
                  Message 8 of 21 , Aug 6, 2009
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                    Spoiler space moved by mod...

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                    I agree with you about Jack having to sacirfice his own grandson.� At that point what could he do.� But I think he was caught slipping for it to even get that far.
                    �
                    I also write and I can tell you now that without great characters you can not have a great story.� Both the characters and the plot are equally important.� I guarantee you that no one would have given a hoot about Ianto dying if he wasn't the likeable character that he is.� And no one would be disappointed in Jack for killing his own blood if he wasn't the swashbuckling hero that we all know and love.
                    �
                    The characters is what makes us care about the storyline in the first place.� But in the end, I have to thank you for your intelligent statements.� You really made me think.
                    �
                    karenisawirter@yahoo,com


                    --- On Thu, 8/6/09, Em <em615@...> wrote:


                    From: Em <em615@...>
                    Subject: [torchwood] Re: COE
                    To: torchwood@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Thursday, August 6, 2009, 7:52 AM


                    �



                    --- In torchwood@yahoogrou ps.com, "michele.briere" <michele.briere@ ...> wrote:

                    > I write, and I can tell you when writing a story, the main story line needs to be continued no matter which character it runs over. TW is about the story, not the character. When the story line needs a hit to keep it moving, or even sent into a new direction, characters are sacrificed. This is how it works.
                    >
                    > TW has always been about the storyline, not the characters. The main story line has always been built toward the day Earth enters the galactic playing field. The opening statement by Jack, at the beginning of every episode, states this.
                    >
                    > Yes, we are all unhappy at the loss of Ianto. Our hero has shown his feet of clay, too, by sacrificing his grandson. Taking in the cannon up til that point, what else could he have done? Stephen was the only child present. I don't know why this is a difficult fact for people to process. It came down to one child or millions. You make the choice. Would you truly sacrifice millions of children, which would have included your grandchild anyway when you could have saved millions with the sacrifice of one? Jack did the only thing he could.
                    >
                    > As for Jack and the radio frequency -give the guy a break. He was blown up. I'm sure his brains were still a little scrambled.
                    >
                    > And Jack is obviously in pain over these two deaths, as well as his daughter turning her back on him. Yes, he left. But the bigger question is why. Is he running? Or is he going to go and do something about it? If I were writing Jack from this point, I'd send him gunning for the 456.
                    >
                    > Yes, RTD has a bad habit of steamrolling over our feelings for the characters. Yes, we are hurting for the loss of Ianto. At the end of the day, it's still just a tv show. And a sign of excellent writing is when it brings out peoples' feelings.
                    >

                    I have to disagree. I'm a writer, too; and while the storyline is important, it's the characters that make or break a show (or, in my case, a play). If people don't care about the characters, then how can they care about the plot? I, personally, watch tv shows for the characters, not the setting. It's why, of all the Star Trek franchises, I was most drawn to Deep Space Nine and not the others. That show had to rely on well developed characters because they were land locked, so to speak.

                    COE was so full of major plot holes, RTD really needed to bank more heavily on his characters. I think he failed miserably. Killing off a major character immediately after offing two others ruined the show for me. Good drama comes from conflict, not senseless death. Children of Earth was melodrama. Add to that RTD's disdain for his fans, and I am unwilling to give him any more of my time.



















                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • sem
                    ... Yes, it was awful losing 3 major characters so closely together, but it felt to me like RTD was closing up shop in case TW wasn t renewed. The end of
                    Message 9 of 21 , Aug 6, 2009
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                      >
                      >COE was so full of major plot holes, RTD really needed to bank more
                      >heavily on his characters. I think he failed miserably. Killing off a
                      >major character immediately after offing two others ruined the show for
                      >me. Good drama comes from conflict, not senseless death. Children of
                      >Earth was melodrama. Add to that RTD's disdain for his fans, and I am
                      >unwilling to give him any more of my time.

                      Yes, it was awful losing 3 major characters so closely together, but it felt
                      to me like RTD was closing up shop in case TW wasn't renewed. The end of
                      Torchwood as an entity would have been a powerful way to end the series. So
                      many series' endings tie everything up into happy little balls where
                      everyone gets what they want and lives happily ever after. Torchwood never
                      seemed like it would be one of those shows.

                      c
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