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Re: [torchwood] Series finale

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  • Louis Sather
    I have seen it and personally I was rather mixed in my reaction. I LOVED the last 25 minutes or so
    Message 1 of 29 , Jul 1, 2007
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      << Did everyone enjoy the season finale of Dr Who
      then?? >>

      I have seen it and personally I was rather mixed in my
      reaction. I LOVED the last 25 minutes or so (once the
      Doctor and the Master were able to finally face off
      against one another), but the first 25 minutes of the
      episode was too over-blown IMO without any solid
      writing and mostly about the SFX. Of course I have had
      many prolems with RTD's writing of the series in the
      past...I think he has some brilliant ideas, but the
      writing and execution of his stories has only been
      so-so (I feel the same way about George Lucas).

      I did enjoy Jack and Martha and where they appear to
      be going with each of them.



      ____________________________________________________________________________________
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    • majkia
      I heard a lot of fans whinging and carrying on as they learnt some spoilers, but I thought the way the episode evolved made a great deal of sense. I found it
      Message 2 of 29 , Jul 1, 2007
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        I heard a lot of fans whinging and carrying on as they learnt some spoilers,
        but I thought the way the episode evolved made a great deal of sense. I
        found it thrilling and very Doctor Whoish and I thought the writing just
        fine.

        Majkia - unable to say more without spoilers


        --
        ~~~~~~~~~
        Bloggy Bayou: http://majkia.livejournal.com

        Vampires, Werewolves and Mages Oh My! http://www.quillings.wikispaces.com
        ~~~~~~~~~


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • donutsweeps
        ... those who haven t seen it yet but I thought it was brilliant and at last we found out who Jack really is - wonderful twist I thought......... ... Sorry, I
        Message 3 of 29 , Jul 1, 2007
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          --- In torchwood@yahoogroups.com, Sarah McNally <mcfaddencat@...> wrote:
          >
          > Did everyone enjoy the season finale of Dr Who then?? Sorry for
          those who haven't seen it yet but I thought it was brilliant and at
          last we found out who Jack really is - wonderful twist I thought.........
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles.
          > Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          Sorry, I hated it. Jack never talks about his past, ever, yet we're
          to believe that he'd randomly drop a bomb like that?
          Besides, what a depressing future he has to look foward to!
        • John Lawton
          Please be careful about spoilers eveyone. Many of us have not viewed the episode yet and I would like to watch it fresh and be surprised with whatever
          Message 4 of 29 , Jul 1, 2007
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            Please be careful about spoilers eveyone. Many of us have not viewed the
            episode yet and I would like to watch it fresh and be surprised with
            whatever happens, thank you.

            John

            -------Original Message-------

            From: donutsweeps
            Date: 7/1/2007 8:54:48 AM
            To: torchwood@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [torchwood] Re: Series finale

            --- In torchwood@yahoogroups.com, Sarah McNally <mcfaddencat@...> wrote:
            >
            > Did everyone enjoy the season finale of Dr Who then?? Sorry for
            those who haven't seen it yet but I thought it was brilliant and at
            last we found out who Jack really is - wonderful twist I thought.........
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles.
            > Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            Sorry, I hated it. Jack never talks about his past, ever, yet we're
            to believe that he'd randomly drop a bomb like that?
            Besides, what a depressing future he has to look foward to!





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Craig J. Ries
            SPOILERS ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ... While it had some redeeming ideas (a Time Lord willing himself not to regenerate, for example), I thought
            Message 5 of 29 , Jul 1, 2007
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              SPOILERS
              !
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              !
              !
              !
              !
              !
              !
              !
              !
              !
              !
              !
              !
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              !

              Sarah McNally wrote:
              > Did everyone enjoy the season finale of Dr Who then??

              While it had some redeeming ideas (a Time Lord willing himself not to
              regenerate, for example), I thought it was really a giant clusterf*ck.

              > and at last we found out who Jack really is

              Ok, this is going to come across as very harsh, but it must be said:

              Are so many of you that gullible as to not take this as a joke at face
              value?

              The Face of Boe is billions of years old and the last of his kind. Jack
              is from the 51st Century. Isn't it even slightly conceivable that Jack,
              being from the future and all, already knew who the Face of Boe was, and
              simply making a crack about his good looks, versus Boe's lack of good looks.

              And just a week ago, everybody was gobbling up the idea that the
              Master's wife HAD to be the Rani. *sigh*

              Craig J. Ries
            • Mark Laffitte
              Like I ve told many friends in my DW fan club here in the states. RTD is good, and I m glad that he brought DW back. But he (RTD) is no way in the same league
              Message 6 of 29 , Jul 1, 2007
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                Like I've told many friends in my DW fan club here in the states. RTD is good, and I'm glad that he brought DW back. But he (RTD) is no way in the same league as JONH NATHAN TURNER.


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Louis Sather
                To: torchwood@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 3:07 AM
                Subject: Re: [torchwood] Series finale



                << Did everyone enjoy the season finale of Dr Who
                then?? >>

                I have seen it and personally I was rather mixed in my
                reaction. I LOVED the last 25 minutes or so (once the
                Doctor and the Master were able to finally face off
                against one another), but the first 25 minutes of the
                episode was too over-blown IMO without any solid
                writing and mostly about the SFX. Of course I have had
                many prolems with RTD's writing of the series in the
                past...I think he has some brilliant ideas, but the
                writing and execution of his stories has only been
                so-so (I feel the same way about George Lucas).

                I did enjoy Jack and Martha and where they appear to
                be going with each of them.

                __________________________________________________________
                Looking for earth-friendly autos?
                Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.
                http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • John Lawton
                Well as far as I m concerned JNT was the one responsible for destroying the clasic series back in the 80s but that s just my humble opinion. John ... From:
                Message 7 of 29 , Jul 1, 2007
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                  Well as far as I'm concerned JNT was the one responsible for destroying the
                  clasic series back in the 80s but that's just my humble opinion.

                  John

                  -------Original Message-------

                  From: Mark Laffitte
                  Date: 7/1/2007 2:13:37 PM
                  To: torchwood@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [torchwood] Series finale

                  Like I've told many friends in my DW fan club here in the states. RTD is
                  good, and I'm glad that he brought DW back. But he (RTD) is no way in the
                  same league as JONH NATHAN TURNER.

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Louis Sather
                  To: torchwood@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 3:07 AM
                  Subject: Re: [torchwood] Series finale

                  << Did everyone enjoy the season finale of Dr Who
                  then?? >>

                  I have seen it and personally I was rather mixed in my
                  reaction. I LOVED the last 25 minutes or so (once the
                  Doctor and the Master were able to finally face off
                  against one another), but the first 25 minutes of the
                  episode was too over-blown IMO without any solid
                  writing and mostly about the SFX. Of course I have had
                  many prolems with RTD's writing of the series in the
                  past...I think he has some brilliant ideas, but the
                  writing and execution of his stories has only been
                  so-so (I feel the same way about George Lucas).

                  I did enjoy Jack and Martha and where they appear to
                  be going with each of them.

                  __________________________________________________________
                  Looking for earth-friendly autos?
                  Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.
                  http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Will Vigar
                  ... 100% with you, John. JNT utterly destroyed Who... -- A Knife and Fork in a World of Soup
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jul 1, 2007
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                    On 01/07/07, John Lawton <videoking@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Well as far as I'm concerned JNT was the one responsible for destroying the
                    > clasic series back in the 80s but that's just my humble opinion.

                    100% with you, John. JNT utterly destroyed Who...

                    --
                    "A Knife and Fork in a World of Soup"
                  • donutsweeps
                    s p o i l e r s p o i l e r ... I assumed it was a joke as well
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jul 1, 2007
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                      s
                      p
                      o
                      i
                      l
                      e
                      r
                      s
                      p
                      o
                      i
                      l
                      e
                      r
                      --- In torchwood@yahoogroups.com, "Craig J. Ries" <silvanthalas@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > Ok, this is going to come across as very harsh, but it must be said:
                      >
                      > Are so many of you that gullible as to not take this as a joke at face
                      > value?

                      I assumed it was a joke as well
                    • Louis Sather
                      Oh, NO ARGUEMENTS THERE!!!! JNT did ruin the show back in the 80 s. My comment wasn t that RTD completely ruins the show...I think he has some brilliant ideas
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jul 1, 2007
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                        Oh, NO ARGUEMENTS THERE!!!! JNT did ruin the show back
                        in the 80's.
                        My comment wasn't that RTD completely ruins the
                        show...I think he has some brilliant ideas and I like
                        the way he has brought it into the modern age. It is
                        just that his actual writing has never been as good as
                        the other people he has hired to write stories (Steven
                        Moffat, Gareth Roberts, Paul Cornell). In fact I can't
                        think of an episode he has written, well maybe
                        "Utopia", that I would rank in my favourites.


                        --- John Lawton <videoking@...> wrote:

                        > Well as far as I'm concerned JNT was the one
                        > responsible for destroying the
                        > clasic series back in the 80s but that's just my
                        > humble opinion.
                        >
                        > John
                        >
                        > -------Original Message-------
                        >
                        > From: Mark Laffitte
                        > Date: 7/1/2007 2:13:37 PM
                        > To: torchwood@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: Re: [torchwood] Series finale
                        >
                        > Like I've told many friends in my DW fan club here
                        > in the states. RTD is
                        > good, and I'm glad that he brought DW back. But he
                        > (RTD) is no way in the
                        > same league as JONH NATHAN TURNER.
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: Louis Sather
                        > To: torchwood@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 3:07 AM
                        > Subject: Re: [torchwood] Series finale
                        >
                        > << Did everyone enjoy the season finale of Dr Who
                        > then?? >>
                        >
                        > I have seen it and personally I was rather mixed in
                        > my
                        > reaction. I LOVED the last 25 minutes or so (once
                        > the
                        > Doctor and the Master were able to finally face off
                        > against one another), but the first 25 minutes of
                        > the
                        > episode was too over-blown IMO without any solid
                        > writing and mostly about the SFX. Of course I have
                        > had
                        > many prolems with RTD's writing of the series in the
                        > past...I think he has some brilliant ideas, but the
                        > writing and execution of his stories has only been
                        > so-so (I feel the same way about George Lucas).
                        >
                        > I did enjoy Jack and Martha and where they appear to
                        > be going with each of them.
                        >
                        >
                        __________________________________________________________
                        > Looking for earth-friendly autos?
                        > Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos'
                        > Green Center.
                        > http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                        > removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Messages in this topic (0) Reply (via web post) |
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                        ------------------------------------------------------------
                        "Don't taunt the FEAR Demon...It's just not nice."

                        Louis Sather
                        lesather@...
                        http://www.geocities.com/lesather/index.html


                        ____________________________________________________________________________________
                        Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
                      • John Lawton
                        Agreed! RTD has some great ideas and I thank him for bringing Who back but he tries to bring to many politcally correct overtones to the show, whether they be
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jul 1, 2007
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                          Agreed! RTD has some great ideas and I thank him for bringing Who back but
                          he tries to bring to many politcally correct overtones to the show, whether
                          they be sexual or otherwise. When I watch a show like Dr. Who I watch it
                          for entertainment. I don't like having poltical agendas forced upon me.

                          John

                          -------Original Message-------

                          From: Louis Sather
                          Date: 7/1/2007 4:42:17 PM
                          To: torchwood@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [torchwood] Series finale

                          Oh, NO ARGUEMENTS THERE!!!! JNT did ruin the show back
                          in the 80's.
                          My comment wasn't that RTD completely ruins the
                          show...I think he has some brilliant ideas and I like
                          the way he has brought it into the modern age. It is
                          just that his actual writing has never been as good as
                          the other people he has hired to write stories (Steven
                          Moffat, Gareth Roberts, Paul Cornell). In fact I can't
                          think of an episode he has written, well maybe
                          "Utopia", that I would rank in my favourites.

                          --- John Lawton <videoking@...> wrote:

                          > Well as far as I'm concerned JNT was the one
                          > responsible for destroying the
                          > clasic series back in the 80s but that's just my
                          > humble opinion.
                          >
                          > John
                          >
                          > -------Original Message-------
                          >
                          > From: Mark Laffitte
                          > Date: 7/1/2007 2:13:37 PM
                          > To: torchwood@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: Re: [torchwood] Series finale
                          >
                          > Like I've told many friends in my DW fan club here
                          > in the states. RTD is
                          > good, and I'm glad that he brought DW back. But he
                          > (RTD) is no way in the
                          > same league as JONH NATHAN TURNER.
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: Louis Sather
                          > To: torchwood@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 3:07 AM
                          > Subject: Re: [torchwood] Series finale
                          >
                          > << Did everyone enjoy the season finale of Dr Who
                          > then?? >>
                          >
                          > I have seen it and personally I was rather mixed in
                          > my
                          > reaction. I LOVED the last 25 minutes or so (once
                          > the
                          > Doctor and the Master were able to finally face off
                          > against one another), but the first 25 minutes of
                          > the
                          > episode was too over-blown IMO without any solid
                          > writing and mostly about the SFX. Of course I have
                          > had
                          > many prolems with RTD's writing of the series in the
                          > past...I think he has some brilliant ideas, but the
                          > writing and execution of his stories has only been
                          > so-so (I feel the same way about George Lucas).
                          >
                          > I did enjoy Jack and Martha and where they appear to
                          > be going with each of them.
                          >
                          >
                          __________________________________________________________
                          > Looking for earth-friendly autos?
                          > Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos'
                          > Green Center.
                          > http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                          > removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >
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                          ----------------------------------------------------------
                          "Don't taunt the FEAR Demon...It's just not nice."

                          Louis Sather
                          lesather@...
                          http://www.geocities.com/lesather/index.html

                          __________________________________________________________
                          Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today!
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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • John Lawton
                          SPOILERS!!! RTD ripped off Star Wars! The Doctor burnt The Master s body just like they did in Return Of The Jedi! John ... From: Louis Sather Date: 7/1/2007
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jul 1, 2007
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                            SPOILERS!!!





                            RTD ripped off Star Wars! The Doctor burnt The Master's body just like
                            they did in Return Of The Jedi!

                            John
                            -------Original Message-------

                            From: Louis Sather
                            Date: 7/1/2007 4:42:17 PM
                            To: torchwood@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [torchwood] Series finale

                            Oh, NO ARGUEMENTS THERE!!!! JNT did ruin the show back
                            in the 80's.
                            My comment wasn't that RTD completely ruins the
                            show...I think he has some brilliant ideas and I like
                            the way he has brought it into the modern age. It is
                            just that his actual writing has never been as good as
                            the other people he has hired to write stories (Steven
                            Moffat, Gareth Roberts, Paul Cornell). In fact I can't
                            think of an episode he has written, well maybe
                            "Utopia", that I would rank in my favourites.

                            --- John Lawton <videoking@...> wrote:

                            > Well as far as I'm concerned JNT was the one
                            > responsible for destroying the
                            > clasic series back in the 80s but that's just my
                            > humble opinion.
                            >
                            > John
                            >
                            > -------Original Message-------
                            >
                            > From: Mark Laffitte
                            > Date: 7/1/2007 2:13:37 PM
                            > To: torchwood@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: Re: [torchwood] Series finale
                            >
                            > Like I've told many friends in my DW fan club here
                            > in the states. RTD is
                            > good, and I'm glad that he brought DW back. But he
                            > (RTD) is no way in the
                            > same league as JONH NATHAN TURNER.
                            >
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: Louis Sather
                            > To: torchwood@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 3:07 AM
                            > Subject: Re: [torchwood] Series finale
                            >
                            > << Did everyone enjoy the season finale of Dr Who
                            > then?? >>
                            >
                            > I have seen it and personally I was rather mixed in
                            > my
                            > reaction. I LOVED the last 25 minutes or so (once
                            > the
                            > Doctor and the Master were able to finally face off
                            > against one another), but the first 25 minutes of
                            > the
                            > episode was too over-blown IMO without any solid
                            > writing and mostly about the SFX. Of course I have
                            > had
                            > many prolems with RTD's writing of the series in the
                            > past...I think he has some brilliant ideas, but the
                            > writing and execution of his stories has only been
                            > so-so (I feel the same way about George Lucas).
                            >
                            > I did enjoy Jack and Martha and where they appear to
                            > be going with each of them.
                            >
                            >
                            __________________________________________________________
                            > Looking for earth-friendly autos?
                            > Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos'
                            > Green Center.
                            > http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                            > removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Messages in this topic (0) Reply (via web post) |
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                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                            > removed]
                            >
                            >

                            ----------------------------------------------------------
                            "Don't taunt the FEAR Demon...It's just not nice."

                            Louis Sather
                            lesather@...
                            http://www.geocities.com/lesather/index.html

                            __________________________________________________________
                            Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today!
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                          • John Lawton
                            The one thing that I felt was totally out of character for The Master was treating the imprisoned Doctor as a pet even going so far as to call him the pet Dog.
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jul 1, 2007
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                              The one thing that I felt was totally out of character for The Master was
                              treating the imprisoned Doctor as a pet even going so far as to call him the
                              pet Dog. With as evil as The Master is or was he would never stoop to such
                              childish antics like that. Above all, both him and The Doctor or very
                              sofisticated individuals and having his character do something like that is
                              an insult to the heritage of The Master, as portrayed by Roger Delgado and
                              Anthony Ainley.

                              John

                              -------Original Message-------

                              From: donutsweeps
                              Date: 7/1/2007 8:54:48 AM
                              To: torchwood@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [torchwood] Re: Series finale

                              --- In torchwood@yahoogroups.com, Sarah McNally <mcfaddencat@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Did everyone enjoy the season finale of Dr Who then?? Sorry for
                              those who haven't seen it yet but I thought it was brilliant and at
                              last we found out who Jack really is - wonderful twist I thought.........
                              >
                              >
                              > ---------------------------------
                              > Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles.
                              > Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              Sorry, I hated it. Jack never talks about his past, ever, yet we're
                              to believe that he'd randomly drop a bomb like that?
                              Besides, what a depressing future he has to look foward to!





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Lynn
                              Replying to several comments at once.... ... You re kidding, right? :) If RTD ripped off Star Wars then Star Wars ripped off the Hindu population of
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jul 1, 2007
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                                Replying to several comments at once....

                                Spoiler Space:
                                >

                                >

                                >

                                >

                                >

                                >
                                >


                                >


                                >


                                >


                                >


                                >
                                >


                                >


                                >


                                >


                                >


                                >

                                John Lawton wrote:

                                >RTD ripped off Star Wars! The Doctor burnt The Master's body just like
                                >they did in Return Of The Jedi!

                                You're kidding, right? :) If RTD "ripped off" Star Wars then Star Wars ripped off the Hindu population of India...

                                Craig J. Ries wrote:

                                >The Face of Boe is billions of years old and the last of his kind. Jack
                                > is from the 51st Century.

                                It's possible you're right -- it's also possible that the "billions of years old" thing is a legend.

                                donutsweeps <donutsweeps@...> wrote:

                                > Jack never talks about his past, ever, yet we're
                                > to believe that he'd randomly drop a bomb like that?

                                I'd have to say that's a big conclusion to jump too. In S1 of Doctor Who, we saw Jack tell Rose and the Doctor things about his past, both serious things like his Time Agency background and capers like in the restaurant in Boomtown. Just because we didn't see much more of it (due to, you know, plot and stuff) I don't extrapolate from that any secrecy from Jack about his past with the Doctor and his companion.

                                With the TW people, it's different, because he's trying not to reveal what he knows, to avoid the risk of altering timelines.

                                > Besides, what a depressing future he has to look foward to!

                                I have to disagree. Consider the alternative. What would he have to look forward to if he'd never age? He had a rough time making it through 140 years... even with the brighter outlook he has now (I hope) people are still going to be forever dying on him. And he's seen the year 100 trillion and it isn't pretty. Doomed to live until the universe collapses? I think that would be the truly awful future.

                                Instead, he gets to find a totally different kind of existence eventually (though fortunately for us he has many youthful and hot years left to him first!) but when he does die, it's with the Doctor at his side. I think it's kind of beautiful, really.

                                -lynn
                              • Robert DiClemente
                                JNT took the series in a new direction for the 80s and the formula worked until the ratings went down the toilet, but I blame that on the idiot who put it up
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jul 1, 2007
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                                  JNT took the series in a new direction for the 80s and the formula worked until the ratings went down the toilet, but I blame that on the idiot who put it up against Coronation Street....Michael Grade maybe???? There were a lot of good stories that came out during JNTs reign, but there were also a share of bad ones. The same goes for RTD, he's had some good stories during his reign and bad one's, but so have all of the other producers of Doctor Who over the years.
                                  Others would say, had it not been for JNT, Doctor Who wouldn't have lasted as long as it did during the 80s, how many, I'm not sure, so we're never going to get the "perfect" producer, so let's just be happy that we have one.
                                  I think that I can say this without getting too many bruises, JNT had control over the show, but RTD has a much firmer grip on the content of the show, ie: storylines and how they should be written, instead of letting the writer get on with the story. 2005: Badwolf scenario, 2006: Torchwood and this year: Mr. Saxon, so let's drop the whole story arc for 13 episodes and get individual stories that have no connection, except for the fact that they all happen to be in the same season.
                                  Let's just hope that this next season will stray away from a common thread, fingers crossed.

                                  ----- Original Message ----
                                  From: John Lawton <videoking@...>
                                  To: torchwood@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Sunday, July 1, 2007 2:18:00 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [torchwood] Series finale

                                  Well as far as I'm concerned JNT was the one responsible for destroying the
                                  clasic series back in the 80s but that's just my humble opinion.

                                  John

                                  -------Original Message----- --

                                  From: Mark Laffitte
                                  Date: 7/1/2007 2:13:37 PM
                                  To: torchwood@yahoogrou ps.com
                                  Subject: Re: [torchwood] Series finale

                                  Like I've told many friends in my DW fan club here in the states. RTD is
                                  good, and I'm glad that he brought DW back. But he (RTD) is no way in the
                                  same league as JONH NATHAN TURNER.

                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: Louis Sather
                                  To: torchwood@yahoogrou ps.com
                                  Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 3:07 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [torchwood] Series finale

                                  << Did everyone enjoy the season finale of Dr Who
                                  then?? >>

                                  I have seen it and personally I was rather mixed in my
                                  reaction. I LOVED the last 25 minutes or so (once the
                                  Doctor and the Master were able to finally face off
                                  against one another), but the first 25 minutes of the
                                  episode was too over-blown IMO without any solid
                                  writing and mostly about the SFX. Of course I have had
                                  many prolems with RTD's writing of the series in the
                                  past...I think he has some brilliant ideas, but the
                                  writing and execution of his stories has only been
                                  so-so (I feel the same way about George Lucas).

                                  I did enjoy Jack and Martha and where they appear to
                                  be going with each of them.

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                                • Lynn
                                  From: Robert DiClemente ... Can you please explain how having Bad Wolf graffiti on the side of the TARDIS, or as the name of the nuclear
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jul 1, 2007
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                                    From: Robert DiClemente <rmd515@...>

                                    > I think that I can say this without getting too many bruises, JNT had control over the show, but RTD has
                                    > a much firmer grip on the content of the show, ie: storylines and how they should be written, instead of
                                    > letting the writer get on with the story. 2005: Badwolf scenario, 2006: Torchwood and this year: Mr.
                                    > Saxon, so let's drop the whole story arc for 13 episodes and get individual stories that have no
                                    > connection, except for the fact that they all happen to be in the same season.

                                    Can you please explain how having "Bad Wolf" graffiti on the side of the TARDIS, or as the name of the nuclear reactor, or Gwenyth mentioning "bad wolf" for three seconds, or any of the very quick references to Torchwood in season 2, or a bunch of "Vote Saxon" posters, prevents writers from getting on with the story? Seriously, I don't get it. Most of these references were either visual or took 5 seconds or less until the episode where they mattered.

                                    I like that Doctor Who has continuity, both story and character-wise. I think it's a strength of the show, not a weakness. If I want 13 stories that have no connection, I can watch The Outer Limits or Twilight Zone.

                                    -lynn
                                  • slida
                                    ... From: torchwood@yahoogroups.com [mailto:torchwood@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lynn ... It s possible you re right -- it s also possible that the
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Jul 2, 2007
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                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: torchwood@yahoogroups.com [mailto:torchwood@yahoogroups.com] On
                                      Behalf Of Lynn
                                      Spoiler Space:
                                      >

                                      >

                                      >

                                      >

                                      >

                                      >
                                      >


                                      >


                                      >


                                      >


                                      >


                                      >
                                      >


                                      >


                                      >


                                      >


                                      >


                                      >

                                      It's possible you're right -- it's also possible that the "billions of
                                      years old" thing is a legend.

                                      >> And, if you think about it, Boe is in a similar type of jar when we
                                      see him as Jack kept the Doc's hand in.

                                      Just mentioning it, is all.....

                                      <Slida>
                                    • Sarah McNally
                                      S p o i l e r s I am not so sure it was a joke, I thought it was a typical RTD piece of writing - a good idea on the surface but then if you think about it
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Jul 2, 2007
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                                        S
                                        p
                                        o
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                                        e
                                        r
                                        s

                                        I am not so sure it was a joke, I thought it was a typical RTD piece of writing - a good idea on the surface but then if you think about it many things do not add up... also whether it was a joke or not it was an interesting concept?



                                        donutsweeps <donutsweeps@...> wrote:
                                        s
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                                        r
                                        --- In torchwood@yahoogroups.com, "Craig J. Ries" <silvanthalas@...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Ok, this is going to come across as very harsh, but it must be said:
                                        >
                                        > Are so many of you that gullible as to not take this as a joke at face
                                        > value?

                                        I assumed it was a joke as well






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                                      • Sarah McNally
                                        s p o i l e r s ! ! ! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face_of_Boe: In Last of the Time Lords, the immortal Captain Jack Harkness speculates how long he may live
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Jul 2, 2007
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                                          s
                                          p
                                          o
                                          i
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                                          e
                                          r
                                          s
                                          !
                                          !
                                          !
                                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face_of_Boe:

                                          In Last of the Time Lords, the immortal Captain Jack Harkness speculates how long he may live and how he may look after millions of years, before mentioning having been a poster boy as a kid in the Boeshane Peninsula, and the "first one ever to be signed up for the Time Agency", accomplishments that earned him the nickname "the Face of Boe". This astonishes Martha and the Doctor. Writer Russell T. Davies, in the episode's commentary, called the implication of this scene as "a theory" as to the Face of Boe's origins, prompting Executive Producer Julie Gardner to urge him to "stop backpedaling" about the two characters being the same. Davies also mentioned the addition of a line in "Gridlock" in which the Face of Boe calls the Doctor "old friend", thus suggesting a stronger connection between the characters.[1]

                                          Sarah McNally <mcfaddencat@...> wrote:
                                          S
                                          p
                                          o
                                          i
                                          l
                                          e
                                          r
                                          s

                                          I am not so sure it was a joke, I thought it was a typical RTD piece of writing - a good idea on the surface but then if you think about it many things do not add up... also whether it was a joke or not it was an interesting concept?



                                          donutsweeps <donutsweeps@...> wrote:
                                          s
                                          p
                                          o
                                          i
                                          l
                                          e
                                          r
                                          s
                                          p
                                          o
                                          i
                                          l
                                          e
                                          r
                                          --- In torchwood@yahoogroups.com, "Craig J. Ries" <silvanthalas@...>
                                          wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Ok, this is going to come across as very harsh, but it must be said:
                                          >
                                          > Are so many of you that gullible as to not take this as a joke at face
                                          > value?

                                          I assumed it was a joke as well

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                                        • Joanne Oliver
                                          I did. It was brilliant. Didn t see that twist about Jack coming at all... Sarah McNally wrote: Did everyone enjoy the season
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Jul 2, 2007
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                                            I did. It was brilliant. Didn't see that twist about Jack coming at all...

                                            Sarah McNally <mcfaddencat@...> wrote: Did everyone enjoy the season finale of Dr Who then?? Sorry for those who haven't seen it yet but I thought it was brilliant and at last we found out who Jack really is - wonderful twist I thought.........

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                                          • donutsweeps
                                            ... speculates how long he may live and how he may look after millions of years, before mentioning having been a poster boy as a kid in the Boeshane Peninsula,
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Jul 2, 2007
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                                              --- In torchwood@yahoogroups.com, Sarah McNally <mcfaddencat@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > s
                                              > p
                                              > o
                                              > i
                                              > l
                                              > e
                                              > r
                                              > s
                                              > !
                                              > !
                                              > !
                                              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face_of_Boe:
                                              >
                                              > In Last of the Time Lords, the immortal Captain Jack Harkness
                                              speculates how long he may live and how he may look after millions of
                                              years, before mentioning having been a poster boy as a kid in the
                                              Boeshane Peninsula, and the "first one ever to be signed up for the
                                              Time Agency", accomplishments that earned him the nickname "the Face
                                              of Boe". This astonishes Martha and the Doctor. Writer Russell T.
                                              Davies, in the episode's commentary, called the implication of this
                                              scene as "a theory" as to the Face of Boe's origins, prompting
                                              Executive Producer Julie Gardner to urge him to "stop backpedaling"
                                              about the two characters being the same. Davies also mentioned the
                                              addition of a line in "Gridlock" in which the Face of Boe calls the
                                              Doctor "old friend", thus suggesting a stronger connection between the
                                              characters.[1]
                                              >
                                              well, wikipedia isn't the best of sources, but even if it's true, why
                                              can't he backpedal? He can write or rewrite whatever he wants. He
                                              wrote something and then realized he needed to change it. Hasn't JB
                                              said that it was only after the fan reactions that his character of
                                              Jack became the hero?
                                            • Lynn
                                              From: donutsweeps ... Actually, if you listen to the commentary, that isn t what he says at all. Of course he can change his mind at a
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Jul 2, 2007
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                                                From: donutsweeps <donutsweeps@...>


                                                >
                                                > s
                                                > p
                                                > o
                                                > i
                                                > l
                                                > e
                                                > r
                                                > s
                                                > !
                                                > !
                                                > !

                                                > well, wikipedia isn't the best of sources, but even if it's true, why
                                                >can't he backpedal? He can write or rewrite whatever he wants. He
                                                >wrote something and then realized he needed to change it.

                                                Actually, if you listen to the commentary, that isn't what he says at all. Of course he can change his mind at a later date, but that wasn't the point of Julie Gardner's comment. RTD was just concerned it was going too far. He didn't say he didn't like the idea or that it needed to be changed. (And seriously, what difference does it make, on a practical level, about what happens to Jack in 10s or 100s of thousands of years?)

                                                > Hasn't JB
                                                > said that it was only after the fan reactions that his character of
                                                > Jack became the hero?

                                                Actually, no. What he said was that some fans didn't like Jack at first. Fan reaction had nothing to do with where his story went -- all of his series 1 Doctor Who episodes were completed before the first one aired. His storyline was totally set before fans ever got a look at him.

                                                Which, IMO, is as it should be. Any showrunner who'd be so quick to cave to the opinion of a few noisy fans -- who are probably totally unrepresentative of viewers as a whole -- show a lack of direction and faith in their own vision.

                                                -Lynn
                                              • Karl Kammer
                                                Dont forget Flash Gorden. the way she picked up the ring and the laugh is straight out of that film. Not that I would consider either of them rip offs. Also,
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Jul 2, 2007
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                                                  Dont forget Flash Gorden. the way she picked up the ring and the laugh is straight out of that film. Not that I would consider either of them rip offs. Also, small pooint, It looked almost like they were on the distant planet from the end of time, look at the background, until of course the hand came in to get the ring.

                                                  John Lawton <videoking@...> wrote: SPOILERS!!!





                                                  RTD ripped off Star Wars! The Doctor burnt The Master's body just like
                                                  they did in Return Of The Jedi!

                                                  John
                                                  -------Original Message-------

                                                  From: Louis Sather
                                                  Date: 7/1/2007 4:42:17 PM
                                                  To: torchwood@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: Re: [torchwood] Series finale

                                                  Oh, NO ARGUEMENTS THERE!!!! JNT did ruin the show back
                                                  in the 80's.
                                                  My comment wasn't that RTD completely ruins the
                                                  show...I think he has some brilliant ideas and I like
                                                  the way he has brought it into the modern age. It is
                                                  just that his actual writing has never been as good as
                                                  the other people he has hired to write stories (Steven
                                                  Moffat, Gareth Roberts, Paul Cornell). In fact I can't
                                                  think of an episode he has written, well maybe
                                                  "Utopia", that I would rank in my favourites.

                                                  --- John Lawton <videoking@...> wrote:

                                                  > Well as far as I'm concerned JNT was the one
                                                  > responsible for destroying the
                                                  > clasic series back in the 80s but that's just my
                                                  > humble opinion.
                                                  >
                                                  > John
                                                  >
                                                  > -------Original Message-------
                                                  >
                                                  > From: Mark Laffitte
                                                  > Date: 7/1/2007 2:13:37 PM
                                                  > To: torchwood@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > Subject: Re: [torchwood] Series finale
                                                  >
                                                  > Like I've told many friends in my DW fan club here
                                                  > in the states. RTD is
                                                  > good, and I'm glad that he brought DW back. But he
                                                  > (RTD) is no way in the
                                                  > same league as JONH NATHAN TURNER.
                                                  >
                                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                                  > From: Louis Sather
                                                  > To: torchwood@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 3:07 AM
                                                  > Subject: Re: [torchwood] Series finale
                                                  >
                                                  > << Did everyone enjoy the season finale of Dr Who
                                                  > then?? >>
                                                  >
                                                  > I have seen it and personally I was rather mixed in
                                                  > my
                                                  > reaction. I LOVED the last 25 minutes or so (once
                                                  > the
                                                  > Doctor and the Master were able to finally face off
                                                  > against one another), but the first 25 minutes of
                                                  > the
                                                  > episode was too over-blown IMO without any solid
                                                  > writing and mostly about the SFX. Of course I have
                                                  > had
                                                  > many prolems with RTD's writing of the series in the
                                                  > past...I think he has some brilliant ideas, but the
                                                  > writing and execution of his stories has only been
                                                  > so-so (I feel the same way about George Lucas).
                                                  >
                                                  > I did enjoy Jack and Martha and where they appear to
                                                  > be going with each of them.
                                                  >
                                                  >
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                                                • Karl Kammer
                                                  Poster boy and the peninsula of Boeshane. Becomes Face of Boe. If RTD has a wicked sense of humor he could just be playing with peoples heads. Reminds me of
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Jul 2, 2007
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                                                    Poster boy and the peninsula of Boeshane. Becomes Face of Boe. If RTD has a wicked sense of humor he could just be playing with peoples heads. Reminds me of a line from a show, "I'm gonna play with you like a wet kitten" It didnt make any sense to anyone but the audience laughed.

                                                    Sarah McNally <mcfaddencat@...> wrote: s
                                                    p
                                                    o
                                                    i
                                                    l
                                                    e
                                                    r
                                                    s
                                                    !
                                                    !
                                                    !
                                                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face_of_Boe:

                                                    In Last of the Time Lords, the immortal Captain Jack Harkness speculates how long he may live and how he may look after millions of years, before mentioning having been a poster boy as a kid in the Boeshane Peninsula, and the "first one ever to be signed up for the Time Agency", accomplishments that earned him the nickname "the Face of Boe". This astonishes Martha and the Doctor. Writer Russell T. Davies, in the episode's commentary, called the implication of this scene as "a theory" as to the Face of Boe's origins, prompting Executive Producer Julie Gardner to urge him to "stop backpedaling" about the two characters being the same. Davies also mentioned the addition of a line in "Gridlock" in which the Face of Boe calls the Doctor "old friend", thus suggesting a stronger connection between the characters.[1]

                                                    Sarah McNally <mcfaddencat@...> wrote:
                                                    S
                                                    p
                                                    o
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                                                    I am not so sure it was a joke, I thought it was a typical RTD piece of writing - a good idea on the surface but then if you think about it many things do not add up... also whether it was a joke or not it was an interesting concept?

                                                    donutsweeps <donutsweeps@...> wrote:
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                                                    --- In torchwood@yahoogroups.com, "Craig J. Ries" <silvanthalas@...>
                                                    wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > Ok, this is going to come across as very harsh, but it must be said:
                                                    >
                                                    > Are so many of you that gullible as to not take this as a joke at face
                                                    > value?

                                                    I assumed it was a joke as well

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                                                  • Sarah McNally
                                                    I think so too - RTD probably just dropped this in at the end of the series so we would all have something to talk about on all the forums!! As with all
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Jul 2, 2007
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                                                      I think so too - RTD probably just dropped this in at the end of the series so we would all have something to talk about on all the forums!! As with all fiction there are no rules.

                                                      Karl Kammer <daddykarl@...> wrote:
                                                      Poster boy and the peninsula of Boeshane. Becomes Face of Boe. If RTD has a wicked sense of humor he could just be playing with peoples heads. Reminds me of a line from a show, "I'm gonna play with you like a wet kitten" It didnt make any sense to anyone but the audience laughed.

                                                      Sarah McNally <mcfaddencat@...> wrote: s
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                                                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face_of_Boe:

                                                      In Last of the Time Lords, the immortal Captain Jack Harkness speculates how long he may live and how he may look after millions of years, before mentioning having been a poster boy as a kid in the Boeshane Peninsula, and the "first one ever to be signed up for the Time Agency", accomplishments that earned him the nickname "the Face of Boe". This astonishes Martha and the Doctor. Writer Russell T. Davies, in the episode's commentary, called the implication of this scene as "a theory" as to the Face of Boe's origins, prompting Executive Producer Julie Gardner to urge him to "stop backpedaling" about the two characters being the same. Davies also mentioned the addition of a line in "Gridlock" in which the Face of Boe calls the Doctor "old friend", thus suggesting a stronger connection between the characters.[1]

                                                      Sarah McNally <mcfaddencat@...> wrote:
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                                                      I am not so sure it was a joke, I thought it was a typical RTD piece of writing - a good idea on the surface but then if you think about it many things do not add up... also whether it was a joke or not it was an interesting concept?

                                                      donutsweeps <donutsweeps@...> wrote:
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                                                      --- In torchwood@yahoogroups.com, "Craig J. Ries" <silvanthalas@...>
                                                      wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > Ok, this is going to come across as very harsh, but it must be said:
                                                      >
                                                      > Are so many of you that gullible as to not take this as a joke at face
                                                      > value?

                                                      I assumed it was a joke as well

                                                      ---------------------------------
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                                                    • majkia
                                                      RTD probably just dropped this in at the end of the series so we would all have something to talk about on all the forums!! As with all fiction there are no
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Jul 2, 2007
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                                                        RTD probably just dropped this in at the end of the series so we would all
                                                        have something to talk about on all the forums!! As with all fiction there
                                                        are no rules.>>

                                                        There are rules, "but they're more like guidelines" - Elizabeth Swann


                                                        Majkia
                                                        ~~~~~~~~~
                                                        Bloggy Bayou: http://majkia.livejournal.com

                                                        Vampires, Werewolves and Mages Oh My! http://www.quillings.wikispaces.com
                                                        ~~~~~~~~~


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                                                      • Robert DiClemente
                                                        I will address your questions in order. Badwolf references through out season 27, those weren t a detraction to the story, nor did they hinder the storyline,
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Jul 2, 2007
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                                                          I will address your questions in order.
                                                          Badwolf references through out season 27, those weren't a detraction to the story, nor did they hinder the storyline, it's just if you're going to drop these little hints why not have an explanation of what they mean. In THE UNQUIET DEAD, the reference given by Gwenyth was just that a reference, why didn't we get more of an explanation of what she meant. I'd have to watch the episode again, but still it was a plot device that wasn't fully used to it's greatest potential.
                                                          As for the Torchwood references, those were a bit random, but please, that was a plug for TORCHWOOD the series, so I overlooked those bits, but at least we knew the background for all of the Torchwood references. TOOTH AND CLAW set that all up, so when Torchwood was mentioned we all had a reference to fall back on, instead of grasping at straws. I think it should be know that I'm looking at this from a writing stand point, so that's my main gripe about Badwolf, I wish there would have been more information given about what it all meant, instead of having it all wrapped up at the end of PARTING OF THE WAYS.
                                                          Mr. Saxon references were here and there, but we did see a final outcome of what it was all leading to, though I haven't seen the last four episodes of this season to wrap everything up in the Mr. Saxon storyline.
                                                          I don't think continuity is a weakness, I just don't think you need to have every season deal with one specific subject over a few stories.
                                                          Since I'm of the old school, "classic" series part of fandom, I feel this way, but I'm not knocking the show, I'm glad it's here.



                                                          ----- Original Message ----
                                                          From: Lynn <lynnloschin@...>
                                                          To: torchwood@yahoogroups.com
                                                          Sent: Sunday, July 1, 2007 11:33:52 PM
                                                          Subject: Re: [torchwood] Series finale


                                                          From: Robert DiClemente <rmd515@...>

                                                          > I think that I can say this without getting too many bruises, JNT had control over the show, but RTD has
                                                          > a much firmer grip on the content of the show, ie: storylines and how they should be written, instead of
                                                          > letting the writer get on with the story. 2005: Badwolf scenario, 2006: Torchwood and this year: Mr.
                                                          > Saxon, so let's drop the whole story arc for 13 episodes and get individual stories that have no
                                                          > connection, except for the fact that they all happen to be in the same season.

                                                          Can you please explain how having "Bad Wolf" graffiti on the side of the TARDIS, or as the name of the nuclear reactor, or Gwenyth mentioning "bad wolf" for three seconds, or any of the very quick references to Torchwood in season 2, or a bunch of "Vote Saxon" posters, prevents writers from getting on with the story? Seriously, I don't get it. Most of these references were either visual or took 5 seconds or less until the episode where they mattered.

                                                          I like that Doctor Who has continuity, both story and character-wise. I think it's a strength of the show, not a weakness. If I want 13 stories that have no connection, I can watch The Outer Limits or Twilight Zone.

                                                          -lynn






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                                                        • bruno.tanaka
                                                          Hello people. Well, I just have watched the finalle season, yes as brazilian I m too slow on it, but I realy liked it begining, but when I was in the middle of
                                                          Message 28 of 29 , Jul 3, 2007
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                                                            Hello people.
                                                            Well, I just have watched the finalle season, yes as brazilian I'm too
                                                            slow on it, but I realy liked it begining, but when I was in the middle
                                                            of it, I was compleatly lost.
                                                            Well, I confess I jumped the second season or whatever season it was,
                                                            but I didn't missed a thing... Jack was who? =S

                                                            Just to know, what season is that?
                                                            Coz I started to watch it that season on Jack appears, then for me it's
                                                            third!! =D
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