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RE: [Tomy Tutor] Re: Technical manuals ?

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  • Bill Loguidice
    I know it probably wouldn t make much of a difference, but have you tried using one of those CD to cassette adapters
    Message 1 of 25 , Feb 19, 2010
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      I know it probably wouldn't make much of a difference, but have you tried
      using one of those CD to cassette adapters
      (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Dynex%26%23174%3B+-+CD/MD/MP3+Cassette+Adapter/
      6323686.p?skuId=6323686&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=6323686&ref=06&loc=01&id=1077
      625430711) in the original Tutor tape drive and running it from there rather
      than straight from the audio out? I have yet to try it myself, but it might
      be a more reliable way of making the stuff work.



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      From: tomytutor@yahoogroups.com [mailto:tomytutor@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
      Of Cameron Kaiser
      Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 3:15 PM
      To: tomytutor@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [Tomy Tutor] Re: Technical manuals ?





      > > I do have one of the Pyuuta adapters, and can verify that it is only for
      the
      > > original version of the Pyuuta. I also have all of the Japanese
      cartridges
      > > except for Superbike, Tron, and the Demonstration cartridge. I have the
      > > boxes for 17 of them, which I probably need to scan and put online.
      Lastly,
      > > I have one of the Japanese tape games.
      >
      > Is the Japanese tape game available online? If not, it would be great to
      get
      > a WAV of it for play on a real Tutor/Pyuuta. What's on the tape?

      If someone manages to get the Tutor to *load* from a .wav, I would like to
      talk to that person. I have not yet been successful -- I'm about to crack a
      Data Recorder open to see if there is some logic in there controlling input
      to the computer.

      I have TRON, but will not part with it :) I would love to find a Japanese
      demo cartridge -- I only have the American one, but I did make a video
      capture of it:

      http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/tomy/purcell.html
      http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2280154749483391062

      I would be very interested to see a capture of the Japanese demo cartridge,
      too. Translating it would be trivial.

      --
      ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/
      --
      Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser@...
      <mailto:ckaiser%40floodgap.com>
      -- Never trust a computer you can't lift. -- Mac rollout, 24 January 1984
      -----





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Cameron Kaiser
      ... I suspect it wouldn t. I m just going to go straight to the source and watch the signal with an oscilloscope from the Mac and from the Data Recorder. I
      Message 2 of 25 , Feb 19, 2010
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        > I know it probably wouldn't make much of a difference, but have you tried
        > using one of those CD to cassette adapters
        > (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Dynex%26%23174%3B+-+CD/MD/MP3+Cassette+Adapter/
        > 6323686.p?skuId=6323686&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=6323686&ref=06&loc=01&id=1077
        > 625430711) in the original Tutor tape drive and running it from there rather
        > than straight from the audio out? I have yet to try it myself, but it might
        > be a more reliable way of making the stuff work.

        I suspect it wouldn't. I'm just going to go straight to the source and watch
        the signal with an oscilloscope from the Mac and from the Data Recorder. I
        also need to make sure signal voltage and impedance are the same.

        --
        ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
        Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser@...
        -- If the cops know where Heisenberg is, can he be caught speeding? -----------
      • kabldb
        /quote Once I figure out what I m doing wrong (I suspect I need to make a little circuit to adjust the audio to what the Tutor is expecting), then we can even
        Message 3 of 25 , Feb 19, 2010
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          /quote
          Once I figure out what I'm doing wrong (I suspect I need to make a little circuit to adjust the audio to what the Tutor is expecting), then we can even cross-develop and I'll post my work and source code.
          /unquote

          Would that be 9995 assembly language programming or Basic ?

          I'm an emulator only guy (once decided to have a clean desk etc.). Since cartridges work fine with MESS, I thought that one could cross assemble and create cartridges. Do you know if 9995 and 9900 and very much alike ?

          /quote
          The driver IMHO seems fine to me. The only thing it lacks is cassette. Otherwise it's pretty complete; it even has parallel port support.

          I'm myself (between Classilla and TTYtter and all my other projects) trying to get the Tutor to reliably load and save "via tape" to my Power Mac. I've got the tape system decoded and I can actually frame the bit stream and look at the data it writes to cassette, but I can't get the Tutor to *load* from the Mac. I don't think it's the Mac; I remember trying to use a friend's Windows machine to do the same thing and having the same problem.
          /unquote

          Thanks. I looked at the notes in MESS source ...

          /quote
          TODO:
          * debug the tape interface (Saved tapes sound OK, both Verify and Load recognize the tape as a Tomy tape, but the data seems to be corrupted and we end with a read error.)
          /unquote

          I tried to make small programs and save to tape using MESS with both TI-99/4A and Tomy Tutor. I listened to the wave files produced and they sound alright. Different but as I remember the sounds from way back in the early eighties. I loaded the TI file back into the TI-99/4A, and audio feedback was as expected. All went well. I tried and load the Tomy file back into Tomy Tutor (remember I'm an all emulator guy), and at first it sounded as the wave file, then it sounded as if it was changing to a higher pitch/tune and then came the data sounding different (the MESS audio feedback was different from just listening to the wave file) and rather quickly an error occurs (feedback continues). This is what I get:
          ?U FIND
          * READY
          In both cases the audio format are 16 bits mono 44100 Hz, and the actually data recorded are 1 bit. It looks like it's being held for 64 samples with the TI and 50 samples with the Tomy.

          :-)
        • kabldb
          Yeah, if not scans, then let us have pictures of adapter, boxes and tape.
          Message 4 of 25 , Feb 19, 2010
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            Yeah, if not scans, then let us have pictures of adapter, boxes and tape.

            :-)


            --- In tomytutor@yahoogroups.com, ksarulofpurdimal <no_reply@...> wrote:
            >
            > I do have one of the Pyuuta adapters, and can verify that it is only for the original version of the Pyuuta. I also have all of the Japanese cartridges except for Superbike, Tron, and the Demonstration cartridge. I have the boxes for 17 of them, which I probably need to scan and put online. Lastly, I have one of the Japanese tape games.
            >
            > Jim
            >
            >
          • Cameron Kaiser
            ... No, the cross-tape reader is written in Perl, actually. The source is pretty easy to understand. When I get it finished, it will accept image files and
            Message 5 of 25 , Feb 20, 2010
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              > > Once I figure out what I'm doing wrong (I suspect I need to make a little
              > > circuit to adjust the audio to what the Tutor is expecting), then we can
              > > even cross-develop and I'll post my work and source code.
              >
              > Would that be 9995 assembly language programming or Basic ?

              No, the cross-tape reader is written in Perl, actually. The source is
              pretty easy to understand. When I get it finished, it will accept image
              files and BASIC text. The Tomy OS, TTBOMK, offers no way to load machine
              code from tape through the ROM routines (this makes sense, because it is
              loading everything to VDP RAM, which can't be executed by the CPU).

              > I'm an emulator only guy (once decided to have a clean desk etc.). Since
              > cartridges work fine with MESS, I thought that one could cross assemble and
              > create cartridges. Do you know if 9995 and 9900 and very much alike ?

              If you write 9900 code, it should work fine on the 9995. The only difference
              with the 9995 is the built-in scratchpad RAM and the 8-bit muxed data bus,
              which is for most intents and purposes irrelevant to the program (remember,
              the 99/8 is a 9995 also, and the 99/4 has the same scratchpad RAM, just
              external to the CPU).

              However, no one has really done much analysis of how to get a ROM to autostart
              and some cartridges may contain Tomy GPL, which is not at all the same as TI
              GPL (as demonstrated by experimentation with the Pyuuta mark II, which has a
              very different CLA than the Pyuuta and Tutor).

              > TODO:
              > * debug the tape interface (Saved tapes sound OK, both Verify and Load
              > recognize the tape as a Tomy tape, but the data seems to be corrupted and
              > we end with a read error.)

              I'm glad Raphael had the same problem -- that proves I'm not totally
              incompetent! :-D

              > I tried to make small programs and save to tape using MESS with both
              > TI-99/4A and Tomy Tutor. I listened to the wave files produced and they
              > sound alright. Different but as I remember the sounds from way back in the
              > early eighties.

              The TI and the Tomy have totally different tape formats. IIRC, the TI is
              based on AFSK, while the Tomy uses a purely digital pulse system similar to
              the Commodore, although the bit framing is totally different. The tape
              systems are wholly incompatible, unfortunately, so the research done into
              the TI CS1 formats is no good here.

              --
              ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
              Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser@...
              -- Nuclear war would really set back cable. -- Ted Turner ---------------------
            • kabldb
              ... Okay, so the cross-develop would be Basic. ... I think there s enough info in the MESS source to work things out. ... Well, I wasn t actually trying to
              Message 6 of 25 , Feb 20, 2010
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                > > > Once I figure out what I'm doing wrong (I suspect I need to make a little
                > > > circuit to adjust the audio to what the Tutor is expecting), then we can
                > > > even cross-develop and I'll post my work and source code.
                > >
                > > Would that be 9995 assembly language programming or Basic ?
                >
                > No, the cross-tape reader is written in Perl, actually. The source is
                > pretty easy to understand. When I get it finished, it will accept image
                > files and BASIC text. The Tomy OS, TTBOMK, offers no way to load machine
                > code from tape through the ROM routines (this makes sense, because it is
                > loading everything to VDP RAM, which can't be executed by the CPU).

                Okay, so the cross-develop would be Basic.

                > > I'm an emulator only guy (once decided to have a clean desk etc.). Since
                > > cartridges work fine with MESS, I thought that one could cross assemble and
                > > create cartridges. Do you know if 9995 and 9900 and very much alike ?
                >
                > If you write 9900 code, it should work fine on the 9995. The only difference
                > with the 9995 is the built-in scratchpad RAM and the 8-bit muxed data bus,
                > which is for most intents and purposes irrelevant to the program (remember,
                > the 99/8 is a 9995 also, and the 99/4 has the same scratchpad RAM, just
                > external to the CPU).
                >
                > However, no one has really done much analysis of how to get a ROM to autostart
                > and some cartridges may contain Tomy GPL, which is not at all the same as TI
                > GPL (as demonstrated by experimentation with the Pyuuta mark II, which has a
                > very different CLA than the Pyuuta and Tutor).

                I think there's enough info in the MESS source to work things out.

                > > I tried to make small programs and save to tape using MESS with both
                > > TI-99/4A and Tomy Tutor. I listened to the wave files produced and they
                > > sound alright. Different but as I remember the sounds from way back in the
                > > early eighties.
                >
                > The TI and the Tomy have totally different tape formats. IIRC, the TI is
                > based on AFSK, while the Tomy uses a purely digital pulse system similar to
                > the Commodore, although the bit framing is totally different. The tape
                > systems are wholly incompatible, unfortunately, so the research done into
                > the TI CS1 formats is no good here.

                Well, I wasn't actually trying to cross anything over there. Let's just only talk Tomy Tutor not to confuse anything. When I save from Basic the file created starts with something like a constant tone for 8.5 seconds. When I load the same file the feedback in MESS only has 2.5 seconds. Both sounds last for 16.5 seconds. I know it's a strange discovery, and it is probably leading nowhere. I've uploaded the 2 recordings. When the load error occurs at 10.5 seconds the volume of feedback is lowered.

                ;-)
              • Cameron Kaiser
                ... I m not desperately relying on MESS as a source of veracity regarding the tape. Once I have it working with the real Tutor, I ll probably focus on MESS at
                Message 7 of 25 , Feb 20, 2010
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                  > When I save from Basic the file created starts with something like a
                  > constant tone for 8.5 seconds. When I load the same file the feedback in
                  > MESS only has 2.5 seconds. Both sounds last for 16.5 seconds.

                  I'm not desperately relying on MESS as a source of veracity regarding the
                  tape. Once I have it working with the real Tutor, I'll probably focus on
                  MESS at that point.

                  --
                  ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
                  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser@...
                  -- The best things in life are sold out. --------------------------------------
                • kabldb
                  ... No, why should you, it s broken. I was only trying to help. I would have expected the feedback to be very much like the saved file. And I thought that this
                  Message 8 of 25 , Feb 20, 2010
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                    > > When I save from Basic the file created starts with something like a
                    > > constant tone for 8.5 seconds. When I load the same file the feedback in
                    > > MESS only has 2.5 seconds. Both sounds last for 16.5 seconds.
                    >
                    > I'm not desperately relying on MESS as a source of veracity regarding the
                    > tape. Once I have it working with the real Tutor, I'll probably focus on
                    > MESS at that point.

                    No, why should you, it's broken. I was only trying to help. I would have expected the feedback to be very much like the saved file. And I thought that this info might raise an eyebrow and maybe give input to tackle the cassette problem from other angles. Not that you have to or anything.

                    ;-)
                  • Cameron Kaiser
                    ... I apologize if it sounded like I was brushing it off, but I assure you the lead-in is not the problem; I can detect that easily. Even if I make the lead-in
                    Message 9 of 25 , Feb 20, 2010
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                      > > > When I save from Basic the file created starts with something like a
                      > > > constant tone for 8.5 seconds. When I load the same file the feedback in
                      > > > MESS only has 2.5 seconds. Both sounds last for 16.5 seconds.
                      > >
                      > > I'm not desperately relying on MESS as a source of veracity regarding the
                      > > tape. Once I have it working with the real Tutor, I'll probably focus on
                      > > MESS at that point.
                      >
                      > No, why should you, it's broken. I was only trying to help. I would have
                      > expected the feedback to be very much like the saved file. And I thought
                      > that this info might raise an eyebrow and maybe give input to tackle the
                      > cassette problem from other angles. Not that you have to or anything.

                      I apologize if it sounded like I was brushing it off, but I assure you the
                      lead-in is not the problem; I can detect that easily. Even if I make the
                      lead-in sequence longer, it does not get detected by the machine. Like I say,
                      I suspect there is something different about either how the Data Recorder
                      writes the data, *or* how it plays it back, and that should be duplicatable
                      either in software or with a trivial analogue circuit.

                      --
                      ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
                      Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser@...
                      -- IBM is not a necessary evil. IBM is not necessary. -- Ted Nelson -----------
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