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Re: [Tomy Tutor ] My new website

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  • David S. Brain
    Hi, From your website: killed off by the likes of the great video game crash of 1983 and by the superior and more cheaply priced Commodore 64. Matter of
    Message 1 of 13 , Dec 29, 2002
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      Hi,
      From your website:

      "killed off by the likes of the great video game crash of 1983 and by
      the superior and more cheaply priced Commodore 64."

      Matter of opinion here...the only "superior" things about the C64 I can
      think of are cheap, the sound chip and the sheer mass of software
      available. The TI-99 was better built, the Atari had a better keyboard,
      the CoCo had great support from Radio Shack and all of them had much
      faster and more reliable disk drives and easier versions of BASIC to
      use. The Panasonic JR200 had good graphics, a great BASIC and was well
      built, and if it had lasted longer and gotten more popular, it would
      have been a great system. Sure the C-64 was cheap, but it was, well,
      cheap...

      From my collection:
      4 20 year old TI-99 systems, all work reliably including disk drives
      3 20 year old Atari systems, all work reliably including disk drives
      6 15-20 year old CoCo systems, all work reliably including disk drives
      2 20 year old Tomy Tutors, one works great the other is marginal
      1 20 year old Panasonic JR200, works reliably
      1 NEC Trek, built like a tank, works every time
      3 VIC-20s, 2 Commodore 64s, 3 C-128s, 8 drives from 1541-1571, 3
      printers, one VIC-20 almost works, one 64C new style works, one 128
      works, one 128 works only in C64 mode, 2 1541-II drives work most of the
      time, rest seldom work, 1 printer works usually. That's 8 systems, of
      which only 2 work right, with 1 disk drive a piece. The games and demos
      for the C64 are great, when they work...

      Just my humble opinion based on my experiences.
      --
      Davey Brain
      dsbrain@...
      http://www.neosplice.com/~dsbrain/

      <<--Unfortunately in Win98 today, Netscape 7.0-->>
      <<--AMD Athlon 1700XP+ S3 ProSavageDDR 4X AGP-->>

      swap_and_shop wrote:
      > opps..
      >
      > http://home.kc.rr.com/vintagecomputers/index.html
      >
    • Cameron Kaiser
      ... No offense to those in the conversation, but I d really like to avoid a my-computer-can-beat-up-your-computer thread. I get that enough other places and
      Message 2 of 13 , Dec 29, 2002
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        > Matter of opinion here...the only "superior" things about the C64 I can
        > think of are cheap, the sound chip and the sheer mass of software
        > available. The TI-99 was better built, the Atari had a better keyboard,
        > the CoCo had great support from Radio Shack and all of them had much
        > faster and more reliable disk drives and easier versions of BASIC to
        > use. The Panasonic JR200 had good graphics, a great BASIC and was well
        > built, and if it had lasted longer and gotten more popular, it would
        > have been a great system. Sure the C-64 was cheap, but it was, well,
        > cheap...

        No offense to those in the conversation, but I'd really like to avoid a
        my-computer-can-beat-up-your-computer thread. I get that enough other
        places and it's really quite tiresome.

        ObTutor: Great things are afoot on the GBASIC front -- stay tuned for a
        very complete analysis, and the first steps towards a working GBASIC
        model in Tutti. I'm still fleshing out the syntax tree (there's a lot of
        weirdness in GBASIC's expression handling), but at least one
        undocumented keyword has emerged, as well as some clues to its
        internal memory representations. I'll be posting when it's done very
        soon (next week perhaps).

        --
        ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
        Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@...
        -- What use is magic if it can't save a unicorn? -- Beagle, "The Last Unicorn"
      • swap_and_shop
        Hey Davey.. Davey, you know I am partial to Commodore. But the videogame crash of 1983 did kill off a lot of computer brands as well as videogame systems.. My
        Message 3 of 13 , Dec 29, 2002
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          Hey Davey..


          Davey, you know I am partial to Commodore.

          But the videogame crash of 1983 did kill off a lot of computer brands
          as well as videogame systems..

          My opinion is based partly on the research I conducted from the
          Panasonic JR-200 magazine articles I found. The articles basically
          state that NEC Trek, Panasonic jr-200 and yes, even the Tutor, could
          not compete in price when compared to the Commodore 64.

          Go to the magazine section on my website..


          Very few companies could compete with the price of the Commodore 64
          David, as you very well know.. The video game crash, combined with
          the low cost 64 made the NEC TREK, Panasonic JR-200 and the Tomy
          Tutor unable to compete.. The market was flooded as well.


          What I thought was interesting in my research is that both the Tutor,
          Nec Trek and Panasonic JR-200 were cancelled during the same time
          period in January/February 1984. Obviously the Japanese were having
          major problems competing in the American marketplace at that time.


          So, that is my opinion and I am sticking by it.. :)



          Now as to the success of the C=64.


          The graphics on the Commodore 64 are some of the best I have ever
          seen on a 8bit computer.

          Frankly, there is no software that I have seen on the Panasonic JR-
          200 that that even remotely competes with the graphics of the
          Commodore 64...

          In my opinion the Commodore 64 beats Apple IIe, TI-99 4/a, Tomy
          Tutor, Mattel Aquarius, Nec Trek, and Panasonic JR-200, and just
          about all other 8 bits for graphics..

          I can show you a few classic games on the C=64, Defender of the Crown
          would be an excellent demonstration. Or perhaps legacy of the
          ancients.. Or even Three Stooges...

          True the disk drives are slow. And they do have to be aligned from
          time to time.. I was able to use my original drives for 5 years
          running a bbs without cleaning or alignment.

          The SID chip of the Commodore 64 is hard to beat, although I know
          that the Panasonic JR-200 has an excellent sound chip..

          So for graphics and sound, the 64 is top notch...
        • emucompboy
          The Commodore 64 was superior to the Panasonic JR-200U in every respect except for Commie BASIC lacking sound and graphic commands. If you ve been programming
          Message 4 of 13 , Dec 30, 2002
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            The Commodore 64 was superior to the Panasonic JR-200U in every
            respect except for Commie BASIC lacking sound and graphic commands.

            If you've been programming the Panasonic JR, you've probably
            discovered that its BASIC sound commands are nothing to write home
            about anyway -- and the sound quality (almost-square waves) is not
            great.

            But we're discussing this in the wrong group. This thread should be
            in Home Computers and not in Tomy Tutor.


            --- In tomytutor@yahoogroups.com, "David S. Brain" <dsbrain@n...>
            wrote:
            > Hi,
            > From your website:
            >
            > "killed off by the likes of the great video game crash of 1983 and
            by
            > the superior and more cheaply priced Commodore 64."
            >
            > Matter of opinion here...the only "superior" things about the C64 I
            can
            > think of are cheap, the sound chip and the sheer mass of software
            > available. The TI-99 was better built, the Atari had a better
            keyboard,
            > the CoCo had great support from Radio Shack and all of them had
            much
            > faster and more reliable disk drives and easier versions of BASIC
            to
            > use. The Panasonic JR200 had good graphics, a great BASIC and was
            well
            > built, and if it had lasted longer and gotten more popular, it
            would
            > have been a great system. Sure the C-64 was cheap, but it was,
            well,
            > cheap...
            >
            > From my collection:
            > 4 20 year old TI-99 systems, all work reliably including disk drives
            > 3 20 year old Atari systems, all work reliably including disk drives
            > 6 15-20 year old CoCo systems, all work reliably including disk
            drives
            > 2 20 year old Tomy Tutors, one works great the other is marginal
            > 1 20 year old Panasonic JR200, works reliably
            > 1 NEC Trek, built like a tank, works every time
            > 3 VIC-20s, 2 Commodore 64s, 3 C-128s, 8 drives from 1541-1571, 3
            > printers, one VIC-20 almost works, one 64C new style works, one 128
            > works, one 128 works only in C64 mode, 2 1541-II drives work most
            of the
            > time, rest seldom work, 1 printer works usually. That's 8 systems,
            of
            > which only 2 work right, with 1 disk drive a piece. The games and
            demos
            > for the C64 are great, when they work...
            >
            > Just my humble opinion based on my experiences.
            > --
            > Davey Brain
            > dsbrain@n...
            > http://www.neosplice.com/~dsbrain/
            >
            > <<--Unfortunately in Win98 today, Netscape 7.0-->>
            > <<--AMD Athlon 1700XP+ S3 ProSavageDDR 4X AGP-->>
            >
            > swap_and_shop wrote:
            > > opps..
            > >
            > > http://home.kc.rr.com/vintagecomputers/index.html
            > >
          • emucompboy
            I like the way the Atari 8-bit computer graphics look on a TV screen, but that s just me. Oh, and I hate the Panasonic s sound chip (which appears to be
            Message 5 of 13 , Dec 30, 2002
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              I like the way the Atari 8-bit computer graphics look on a TV screen,
              but that's just me.

              Oh, and I hate the Panasonic's sound chip (which appears to be
              integrated into the sub-cpu -- remind you of something? Reminds me
              of Commodore's TED). The near-square waves are just harsh on the
              attack.

              The AY sound chips in the NEC TREK and the Aquarius mini-expander
              (and numerous other computers) are much nicer than the Panasonic JR
              sound.

              >
              > The SID chip of the Commodore 64 is hard to beat, although I know
              > that the Panasonic JR-200 has an excellent sound chip..
            • emucompboy
              ... avoid a ... LOL, not the least of which is that we re doing the my computer is better about computers that are seventeen years obsolete. ... for a ...
              Message 6 of 13 , Dec 30, 2002
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                --- In tomytutor@yahoogroups.com, Cameron Kaiser <spectre@s...> wrote:
                > No offense to those in the conversation, but I'd really like to
                avoid a
                > my-computer-can-beat-up-your-computer thread. I get that enough

                LOL, not the least of which is that we're doing the "my computer is
                better" about computers that are seventeen years obsolete.

                > ObTutor: Great things are afoot on the GBASIC front -- stay tuned
                for a
                > very complete analysis, and the first steps towards a working GBASIC
                > model in Tutti. I'm still fleshing out the syntax tree (there's a
                lot of

                Well, for the third time, I have failed to make an emulator for the
                Tomy Tutor. I really gave it a good try this last time, too.
                (Sometimes my good tries work out fairly well -- the Panasonic JR-
                200U emulator works well enough to play about half its games). I
                failed partly because I do not understand the MAME 9995 CPU module,
                which is not like the other modules (old z80 and recent 680x) modules
                I have been working with. I think for my next try, I'll try to make
                a TI emulator, and if that works, change it into a Tomy Tutor
                emulator.
              • Cameron Kaiser
                ... I m wondering if the (so far poorly understood) banking logic is to blame. The Tutor has a lot more ROM to worry about and deal with than the TI. Tutti 0.3
                Message 7 of 13 , Dec 30, 2002
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                  > > ObTutor: Great things are afoot on the GBASIC front -- stay tuned for a
                  > > very complete analysis, and the first steps towards a working GBASIC
                  > > model in Tutti. I'm still fleshing out the syntax tree (there's a lot of
                  >
                  > Well, for the third time, I have failed to make an emulator for the
                  > Tomy Tutor. I really gave it a good try this last time, too.

                  I'm wondering if the (so far poorly understood) banking logic is to blame.
                  The Tutor has a lot more ROM to worry about and deal with than the TI.

                  Tutti 0.3 is nearly done. I'm not going to put the GBASIC interpreter in it
                  yet (I'm not finished figuring out all the quirks), but it will have some
                  semblance of a GBASIC mode, and I'll probably enable some sort of file
                  access from the MONitor. I fixed all the bugs from before and cleaned up the
                  GRAPHICs mode raster flicker, too. It's not perfect but it's cleaner.

                  Also working on a comparison architecture between the TI series and the Tomy
                  (hey, does anyone know if the 9995 in the 99/2 and 99/8 is also muxed?),
                  updating all the old information, and I might work on a Tutor-ial page for
                  getting started with the Tutor, GRAPHICs mode, etc.

                  --
                  ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
                  Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@...
                  -- Well done is better than well said. -- Benjamin Franklin -------------------
                • David S. Brain
                  OK, first let me apologize to everyone. The message about the Commie computers was SUPPOSED to go to Swap personally. I had just got out of bed and was
                  Message 8 of 13 , Dec 30, 2002
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                    OK, first let me apologize to everyone. The message about the Commie
                    computers was SUPPOSED to go to Swap personally. I had just got out of
                    bed and was obviously not fully awake when I wrote and sent that letter.
                    I don't mean to start any wars, especially when I'm outnumbered here
                    (and most places as there were approximately 6.8 C64s sold for every
                    TI-99 sold).

                    Second, how did the Panasonic JR200 pop up in the Tomy Tutor group? I'm
                    not even sure I knew what group I was in when I got the link to the
                    website :/
                    --
                    Davey Brain
                    dsbrain@...
                    http://www.neosplice.com/~dsbrain/

                    <<--Unfortunately in Win98 today, Netscape 7.0-->>
                    <<--AMD Athlon 1700XP+ S3 ProSavageDDR 4X AGP-->>

                    emucompboy wrote:
                    > The Commodore 64 was superior to the Panasonic JR-200U in every
                    > respect except for Commie BASIC lacking sound and graphic commands.
                    >
                    > If you've been programming the Panasonic JR, you've probably
                    > discovered that its BASIC sound commands are nothing to write home
                    > about anyway -- and the sound quality (almost-square waves) is not
                    > great.
                    >
                    > But we're discussing this in the wrong group. This thread should be
                    > in Home Computers and not in Tomy Tutor.
                    >
                  • swap_and_shop
                    Davey, you have nothing to apologize for. To everybody else; I personally don t mind these types of conversations as long as they are civil,-- And I know all
                    Message 9 of 13 , Dec 30, 2002
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                      Davey, you have nothing to apologize for.


                      To everybody else;



                      I personally don't mind these types of conversations as long as they
                      are civil,-- And I know all of us are old enough and wise enough to
                      be civil. :)

                      I remember having heated debates when I was 14 yrs old about the
                      C=64, (and that was 16 years ago), and I don't need to rehash that
                      part of my youth. :)

                      Secondly, there has been little to talk about on the Club board, so I
                      personally don't mind if we discuss other machines, unless you all
                      have a problem with doing so. I don't like to censor people unless
                      it is for something entirely inappropiate.

                      Thirdly, I consider all of us to be friends who have similiar
                      collecting hobbies. If you want to talk about other vintage
                      computers, please fill free to do so. Or, as an example, if you own a
                      vintage car and want to talk about it, then do so.

                      This is a free speech board...


                      whew.... . :)

                      swap

                      Happy New Year!
                    • emucompboy
                      I want to collect it before you do, but you seem to have a larger supply of $$$ and space than I do, not to mention a quicker finger on the E-Bay Bid button!
                      Message 10 of 13 , Dec 30, 2002
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                        I want to collect it before you do, but you seem to have a larger
                        supply of $$$ and space than I do, not to mention a quicker finger on
                        the E-Bay Bid button!

                        :)



                        --- In tomytutor@yahoogroups.com, swap_and_shop <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Thirdly, I consider all of us to be friends who have similiar
                        > collecting hobbies. If you want to talk about other vintage
                        > computers, please fill free to do so. Or, as an example, if you own
                        a
                        > vintage car and want to talk about it, then do so.
                      • Jeff White
                        Cameron Kaiser wrote: ... Tomy ... The 9995 muxes the databus always. The 9995 is the indirect descendant of the 9985
                        Message 11 of 13 , Dec 30, 2002
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                          "Cameron Kaiser" <spectre@...> wrote:
                          <snip>
                          > Also working on a comparison architecture between the TI series and the
                          Tomy
                          > (hey, does anyone know if the 9995 in the 99/2 and 99/8 is also muxed?),
                          > updating all the old information, and I might work on a Tutor-ial page for
                          > getting started with the Tutor, GRAPHICs mode, etc.

                          The 9995 muxes the databus always. The 9995 is the indirect descendant of
                          the 9985 that was supposed to be in the 99/4 -- which instead got a 9900
                          kludged to work similarly to the 9985. The 99/8 uses a special version of
                          the 9995 that disables most of the on-chip RAM. Not sure about the 99/2.

                          Jeff White
                          jhwhite@...
                        • Cameron Kaiser
                          ... Explain this. Is there another $8300 page RAM out there in the 99/8? Is that page connected by the same 16-bit wide path as the 9900 s, or muxed in the
                          Message 12 of 13 , Dec 30, 2002
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                            > The 9995 muxes the databus always. The 9995 is the indirect descendant of
                            > the 9985 that was supposed to be in the 99/4 -- which instead got a 9900
                            > kludged to work similarly to the 9985. The 99/8 uses a special version of
                            > the 9995 that disables most of the on-chip RAM.

                            Explain this. Is there another "$8300 page" RAM out there in the 99/8?
                            Is that page connected by the same 16-bit wide path as the 9900's, or muxed
                            in the same way as the rest of memory access? And what's most of the RAM?

                            --
                            ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
                            Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@...
                            -- A dean is to faculty as a hydrant is to a dog. -- Alfred Kahn --------------
                          • Jeff White
                            ... of ... of ... muxed ... The off-the-shelf 9995 has 256 bytes of on-chip RAM at F000-F0F9 and ... on-chip decrementer and FFFC-FFFF is the NMI
                            Message 13 of 13 , Dec 30, 2002
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                              > > The 9995 muxes the databus always. The 9995 is the indirect descendant
                              of
                              > > the 9985 that was supposed to be in the 99/4 -- which instead got a 9900
                              > > kludged to work similarly to the 9985. The 99/8 uses a special version
                              of
                              > > the 9995 that disables most of the on-chip RAM.
                              >
                              > Explain this. Is there another "$8300 page" RAM out there in the 99/8?
                              > Is that page connected by the same 16-bit wide path as the 9900's, or
                              muxed
                              > in the same way as the rest of memory access? And what's most of the RAM?

                              The off-the-shelf 9995 has 256 bytes of on-chip RAM at >F000-F0F9 and
                              >FFFA-FFFF that is on the 16-bit internal bus. The word at >FFFA is the
                              on-chip decrementer and >FFFC-FFFF is the NMI (non-maskable interrupt, or
                              Load, vector). From what I understand, having never studied the 99/8 in
                              detail, it has the on-chip RAM at >F000-F0F9 disabled. The Myarc Geneve
                              9640 uses a standard 9995 and 8K memory pages. Because the 9995 does not
                              disable the external bus during writes, accessing a page mapped to
                              >E000-FFFF in the areas >F000-F0F9 and >FFFA-FFFF will mess with even bytes
                              in the page. Internally a 16-bit operation is happenning, but only the even
                              data byte shows on the external bus.

                              With regard to the "$8300 page" RAM: This is the CPU PAD of the 99/4A and
                              the only directly accessible CPU RAM in a stock console. The standard 16K
                              RAM of the 99/4A is indirectly accessed via the VDP, the TMS9918A in North
                              American consoles. Much of the console ROM and GROM and peripheral ROM
                              (DSR's) is written such that the CPU PAD can be relocated.

                              E.g., the disk controllers typically report error codes at >8350. In the TI
                              floppy disk controller source code, that error code may have been written
                              with an instruction such as "MOV @ERR12,@>0050(R9)". The workspace register
                              R9 in the case of the 99/4A contains >8300. The 99/8 could have its CPU PAD
                              elsewhere.

                              Jeff White
                              jhwhite@...
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