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RE: CO2 scams

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  • Jan Steinman
    ... But fortunately, CO2 and what you define as air pollution generally go in lock-step -- the easiest way to reduce one also reduces the other. So why rail
    Message 1 of 10 , Jan 25, 2005
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      > From: "MJ" <mike211@...>
      >
      > The problem is that focussing on CO2 ignores the real problem -- air
      > pollution.

      But fortunately, CO2 and what you define as "air pollution" generally
      go in lock-step -- the easiest way to reduce one also reduces the
      other.

      So why rail against CO2 reduction? Reducing CO2 emissions will
      necessarily reduce other pollution as well!

      I agree that pollution that directly hurts someone is easier to make a
      case against. But why do you seem to insist that people don't also make
      a case against CO2? Certainly, there are plenty of cases to go around!

      Most people who don't like CO2 reduction are "energy bigots" -- they
      understand the deep implication that CO2 reduction is basically
      fossil-fuel reduction, and don't want to go there.

      :::: Don't anthropomorphize computers -- they hate it when you do that!
      :::: Jan Steinman <http://www.Bytesmiths.com/Item/99-3024-31>
    • MJ
      Becaue the average Homer Simpson American does not understand CO2 or greenhouse gasses, however they CAN understand smog. The problem with your CO2 fixation
      Message 2 of 10 , Jan 26, 2005
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        Becaue the average Homer Simpson American does not understand CO2 or
        greenhouse gasses, however they CAN understand smog. The problem with your
        CO2 fixation is that the problem is not being comunicated to the big
        wasters/polluters. Continue preaching your CO2 littany to the converted if it
        makes you feel good, but as you can see it's not gaining much ground with the
        vast majority of American uber-consumers.
        MJ

        > So why rail against CO2 reduction? Reducing CO2 emissions will
        > necessarily reduce other pollution as well!
        >
        > I agree that pollution that directly hurts someone is easier to make a
        > case against. But why do you seem to insist that people don't also make
        > a case against CO2? Certainly, there are plenty of cases to go around!
        >
        > Most people who don't like CO2 reduction are "energy bigots" -- they
        > understand the deep implication that CO2 reduction is basically
        > fossil-fuel reduction, and don't want to go there.
        >
      • Chuck Nolan
        Good Day MJ, I must first admit that I am culturally deprived or is it depraved? Watch out for us stressed out Americans. I just don t spend that many hours
        Message 3 of 10 , Jan 26, 2005
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          Good Day MJ,

          I must first admit that I am culturally deprived or is it depraved? Watch
          out for us stressed out Americans. I just don't spend that many hours
          watching television, which in many ways might be considered intellectual
          pollution. This email is dedicated to the memory of Johnny Carson, a man
          who made this place a little more tolerable.

          Since alternative energy provides very few jobs, I am presently working
          selling HVAC to old Homer. Imagine my frustration, when Homer decides to
          keep his old rusting furnace, which wastes half of the energy it burns.
          Most people pass over the Energy Star models, and buy a 80% AFUE model, when
          the old furnace dies. Natural gas went up 20% in the last twelve months. A
          93% AFUE furnace costs around $1200 more, installed. The typical gas bill
          runs around $90.00 in the winter for heating in the temperate coastal
          regions. This works out to an average of $350.00 a year. The Energy Star
          (93% AFUE) furnace saves about $56.88 a year in gas over the standard (80%
          AFUE). By the second year the annual savings would be $68.26. The third
          year annual savings would be $81.91. The fourth year annual savings would
          be $98.29.

          On the other hand, replacing the 40% AFUE with the 80% AFUE furnace has a
          reasonable return on investment.

          When the old furnace finally rusts through its heat exchanger, the old
          furnace begins to add carbon monoxide to the recirculated air. At first
          this poison causes head aches and brain damage, but eventually we see the
          Darwin effect. Through his gross stupidity, Homer has removed himself from
          the gene pool, when the carbon monoxide kills him.

          Now what is the depletion rate of natural gas? There is no consensus.
          Natural gas tends to deplete at a faster rate than oil, where steam
          injection can bring heavy oil to the surface after the lighter crude has
          been pumped out. Already we are seeing natural gas being shipped around the
          world in tankers as local sources are running out. Yet, we are building new
          power plants in California that will increase the demand for natural gas.
          John Gotthold, president of the local American Hydrogen Association, has
          presented data at our monthly meetings, which seems to support the theory
          that demand will exceed supply in the year 2007.

          Now, there is hope! In the past natural gas has increased in price by
          single digits. This year we will see double digits. Maybe next year or by
          2007 we will see triple digits.

          It gets better. Most homes now have some attic insulation, but walls and
          floors are rarely insulated in older homes. Duct work is rarely upgraded or
          even maintained. Imagine the pollution that comes from the wasted energy,
          leaking from ducts, that heats the crawl spaces or the attics. The animal
          rights terrorists should be happy, since rats, living crawl spaces with
          damaged vent screens, enjoy the warmth. Last year I had a Lady Homer, who
          was spending $800.00 a month on energy for a 4000 square foot home, but
          refused to consider high efficiency equipment and insulated ducts, but
          instead went with the "lowest bidder" to replace her aging equipment.

          The real problem is that Homer has Rectal Myopia. Why don't you and I form
          a startup company to manufacture glass abdominal windows, so that Homer can
          regain his vision? No wonder the guy has a shitty out look on life!

          Silly in Sunnyvale (I loved the ending of Sleepless in Seattle),
          Chuck
          -----Original Message-----
          From: MJ [mailto:mike211@...]
          Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 7:30 PM
          To: tomorrow-energy@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [tomorrow-energy] CO2 scams


          Chuck,

          The problem is that focussing on CO2 ignores the real problem -- air
          pollution.
          Most Americans understand that smog kills, all this fooferaw over CO2 just
          confuses tham. Of course all those beating the CO2 drum are against
          pollution
          too. But they've missed the point that most Americans don't know or care
          what
          they're ranting about. Ask most Americans and you'll get this response:
          "Greenhouse gasses? I don't own a greenhouse, it's not my problem."
          You guys do a great job preaching to the converted, but your message is
          not
          getting thru to Homer Simpson. Focus on stopping smog, that's something
          most
          Americans can understand.

          MJ

          >
          > Good Day MJ,
          >
          > I understand your frustration, and agree with your concern over the
          general
          > disregard for pollution by many people. The big question is do you want
          to
          > bring about change or just vent your rage at a system that seems to
          ignore
          > you. I would guess that if I was to confront you and try to physically
          push
          > you that you would do your best to knock me back on my ass. I would
          > probably do the same, if someone was to push me.
          >
          > Here in California most cities provide roadside recycling, where on
          garbage
          > day, the recyclables are picked up and taken to a centralized recycling
          > center. Just a few years ago, most recyclables went to the landfill.
          Years
          > ago tetraethyl lead was added to gasoline, which caused lead
          particulates to
          > poison the land alongside of freeways. Today, we use lead free
          gasoline.
          > Today, solar panels are in short supply and wind power was advertised on
          the
          > Olympic Games. These positive changes were brought about by polite
          people,
          > who presented convincing arguments.
          >
          > The same scientists who are worried about CO2 are worried about acid
          rain,
          > resource depletion, carcinogenic particulates, and other forms of
          pollution.
          > You might find that these same people, who you attack with such venom,
          could
          > be your strongest supporters.
          >
          > People want to be shown a better future by leaders, not insulted by
          angry
          > protestors. Your heart is in the right place, and I think a man as
          smart
          > and concerned as you can make great contributions. We need people to
          focus
          > their passion on making positive changes, to help lead us all to a
          better
          > future.
          >
          > I look forward to seeing positive solutions to some of these problems.
          >
          > Best Wishes Brother,
          > Chuck Nolan
          > President
          > Modular Energy Solutions -
          > Tomorrow's energy today
          > 182 N. Taaffe St
          > Sunnyvale, CA 94086-4919
          > United States
          > T: 408-733-8749
          > F: 408-733-8779
          > E: chucknln@...
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: MJ [mailto:mike211@...]
          > Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 5:46 PM
          > Subject: [tomorrow-energy] CO2 scams
          >
          >
          >
          > CO2 isn't pollution, it's a scam. Pollution is the stuff that makes
          you
          > sick.
          > CO2 concentrations would have to be 1000 times the concentration in
          the
          > atmosphere before it ever even started to be a toxic problem. Nobody
          is
          > dieing from CO2 poisoning. Tens of thousands are dieing from
          > urban-industrial
          > pollution, and the problem has been around since the end of ww2. CO2
          and
          > global warming are just the latest in a long line of excuses that city
          > inhabitants have used to avoid coming to grips with the basic fact
          that
          > smog
          > kills. City people are shitting in their nest, then rolling in it and
          > blaming
          > the smell on their neighbor's farts. There is no point taking any of
          this
          > CO2
          > scam seriously until there is meaningful efforts on the part of cities
          to
          > stop
          > smog. It's very easy to do and there is no excuse to keep putting it
          off
          > while more and more people die from it.
          >
          > CO2 is Carbon Dioxide it's not smog and it won't kill you or even make
          you
          > sick in the concentrations found in the atmosphere. SMOG is the mix of
          > toxic
          > air pollutants that kill. CO2 is a big red herring.
          >
          > The industrial revolution has been the central cause for the increase
          in
          > pollutants in the atmosphere over the last three centuries. Before
          1950,
          > the
          > majority of this pollution was created from the burning of coal for
          energy
          > generation, space heating, cooking, and transportation. Under the
          right
          > conditions, the smoke and sulfur dioxide produced from the burning of
          coal
          > can
          > combine with fog to create industrial smog. In high concentrations,
          > industrial
          > smog can be extremely toxic to humans and other living organisms.
          London
          > is
          > world famous for its episodes of industrial smog. The most famous
          London
          > smog
          > event occurred in December, 1952 when five days of calm foggy weather
          > created
          > a toxic atmosphere that claimed about 4000 human lives. Today, the use
          of
          > other fossil fuels, nuclear power, and hydroelectricity instead of
          coal
          > has
          > greatly reduced the occurrence of industrial smog. However, the
          burning of
          > fossil fuels like gasoline can create another atmospheric pollution
          > problem
          > known as photochemical smog. Photochemical smog is a condition that
          > develops
          > when primary pollutants (oxides of nitrogen and volatile organic
          compounds
          > created from fossil fuel combustion) interact under the influence of
          > sunlight
          > to produce a mixture of hundreds of different and hazardous chemicals
          > known as
          > secondary pollutants. The Table below [see URL] describes the major
          toxic
          > constituents of photochemical smog and their effects on the
          environment.
          > Development of photochemical smog is typically associated with
          specific
          > climatic conditions and centers of high population density. Cities
          like
          > Los
          > Angeles, New York, Sydney, and Vancouver frequently suffer episodes of
          > photochemical smog. In recent years, scientists have also noticed that
          > smaller
          > communities can develop similar pollution problems if conditions are
          > right.
          >
          > more:
          > http://royal.okanagan.bc.ca/mpidwirn/atmosphereandclimate/smog.html
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          > Alternate Energy Resource Network
          > http://www.alternate-energy.net
          > Visit our new groups Next Generation Grid
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid/
          > Alternative Energy Politics
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/
          > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          >
          >
          >
          >


          > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
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          >
          > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
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          >
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          > tomorrow-energy-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
          Service.
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          > Alternate Energy Resource Network
          > http://www.alternate-energy.net
          > Visit our new groups Next Generation Grid
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid/
          > Alternative Energy Politics
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/
          > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >





          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          Alternate Energy Resource Network
          http://www.alternate-energy.net
          Visit our new groups Next Generation Grid
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid/
          Alternative Energy Politics
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/
          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • MJ
          Chuck, I sell and install HVAC and also teach energy conserving house building techniques. I only use 90+ efficient gas furnaces, or fan coil systems and
          Message 4 of 10 , Jan 26, 2005
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            Chuck,
            I sell and install HVAC and also teach energy conserving house building
            techniques. I only use 90+ efficient gas furnaces, or fan coil systems and
            always include a Heat Recovery Ventilator. It's a small but dedicated market
            of people who build new houses or remodel old houses to improve the 'energy
            efficiency' of the whole house. Building energy efficient houses gives lower
            mortgage rates and much higher levels of comfort. Of course, living in a
            climate of 12000+ heating degree days significantly improves the economics of
            energy conserving houses.
            MJ
            >
            > Good Day MJ,
            >
            > I must first admit that I am culturally deprived or is it depraved? Watch
            > out for us stressed out Americans. I just don't spend that many hours
            > watching television, which in many ways might be considered intellectual
            > pollution. This email is dedicated to the memory of Johnny Carson, a man
            > who made this place a little more tolerable.
            >
            > Since alternative energy provides very few jobs, I am presently working
            > selling HVAC to old Homer.
            > Chuck,
            >
          • MJ
            Chuck, Your experience with Homer underscores the point I made that Homer can t understand CO2 and greenhouse gasses or global warming, but he can barely
            Message 5 of 10 , Jan 27, 2005
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              Chuck,
              Your experience with Homer underscores the point I made that Homer can't
              understand CO2 and greenhouse gasses or global warming, but he can barely
              understand smog. That's why I maintain that 'public' education about smog on
              TV and billboards will likely impact more typical Americans than anything said
              about CO2 and greenhouse gasses or global warming. Reducing smog is the
              easiest path to reducing greenhouse gasses.
              MJ
              >
              > Since alternative energy provides very few jobs, I am presently working
              selling HVAC to old Homer.
              > Chuck,
              >
            • BigSteam
              Now, now. I ve been handing out crystal belly-button replacements for decades. No patent, but prior use; so I want my cut... Craig Close Balimer, Merlan OK:
              Message 6 of 10 , Jan 28, 2005
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                Now, now. I've been handing out crystal belly-button replacements for
                decades. No patent, but prior use; so I want my cut...

                Craig Close
                Balimer, Merlan
                OK: Far West Catonsville
                ALL RIGHT: Greater Oella
                -----Original Message-----
                From: Chuck Nolan [mailto:chucknln@...]
                Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 12:51 AM
                To: tomorrow-energy@yahoogroups.com
                Cc: renweableenergy2; energy2004; AlternativesInEnergy; Leigh Peck; Arun P.
                Patel; Clyde Stanley; David Coale; Fred Zeise; Gary R. Fabrizio; Krassimer
                G. Grouev; Mat Thompson; Steve Anderes; Steve Koelzer
                Subject: RE: [tomorrow-energy] CO2 scams


                Good Day MJ,

                I must first admit that I am culturally deprived or is it depraved? Watch
                out for us stressed out Americans. I just don't spend that many hours
                watching television, which in many ways might be considered intellectual
                pollution. This email is dedicated to the memory of Johnny Carson, a man
                who made this place a little more tolerable.

                Since alternative energy provides very few jobs, I am presently working
                selling HVAC to old Homer. Imagine my frustration, when Homer decides to
                keep his old rusting furnace, which wastes half of the energy it burns.
                Most people pass over the Energy Star models, and buy a 80% AFUE model, when
                the old furnace dies. Natural gas went up 20% in the last twelve months. A
                93% AFUE furnace costs around $1200 more, installed. The typical gas bill
                runs around $90.00 in the winter for heating in the temperate coastal
                regions. This works out to an average of $350.00 a year. The Energy Star
                (93% AFUE) furnace saves about $56.88 a year in gas over the standard (80%
                AFUE). By the second year the annual savings would be $68.26. The third
                year annual savings would be $81.91. The fourth year annual savings would
                be $98.29.

                On the other hand, replacing the 40% AFUE with the 80% AFUE furnace has a
                reasonable return on investment.

                When the old furnace finally rusts through its heat exchanger, the old
                furnace begins to add carbon monoxide to the recirculated air. At first
                this poison causes head aches and brain damage, but eventually we see the
                Darwin effect. Through his gross stupidity, Homer has removed himself from
                the gene pool, when the carbon monoxide kills him.

                Now what is the depletion rate of natural gas? There is no consensus.
                Natural gas tends to deplete at a faster rate than oil, where steam
                injection can bring heavy oil to the surface after the lighter crude has
                been pumped out. Already we are seeing natural gas being shipped around the
                world in tankers as local sources are running out. Yet, we are building new
                power plants in California that will increase the demand for natural gas.
                John Gotthold, president of the local American Hydrogen Association, has
                presented data at our monthly meetings, which seems to support the theory
                that demand will exceed supply in the year 2007.

                Now, there is hope! In the past natural gas has increased in price by
                single digits. This year we will see double digits. Maybe next year or by
                2007 we will see triple digits.

                It gets better. Most homes now have some attic insulation, but walls and
                floors are rarely insulated in older homes. Duct work is rarely upgraded or
                even maintained. Imagine the pollution that comes from the wasted energy,
                leaking from ducts, that heats the crawl spaces or the attics. The animal
                rights terrorists should be happy, since rats, living crawl spaces with
                damaged vent screens, enjoy the warmth. Last year I had a Lady Homer, who
                was spending $800.00 a month on energy for a 4000 square foot home, but
                refused to consider high efficiency equipment and insulated ducts, but
                instead went with the "lowest bidder" to replace her aging equipment.

                The real problem is that Homer has Rectal Myopia. Why don't you and I form
                a startup company to manufacture glass abdominal windows, so that Homer can
                regain his vision? No wonder the guy has a shitty out look on life!

                Silly in Sunnyvale (I loved the ending of Sleepless in Seattle),
                Chuck
                -----Original Message-----
                From: MJ [mailto:mike211@...]
                Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 7:30 PM
                To: tomorrow-energy@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [tomorrow-energy] CO2 scams


                Chuck,

                The problem is that focussing on CO2 ignores the real problem -- air
                pollution.
                Most Americans understand that smog kills, all this fooferaw over CO2 just
                confuses tham. Of course all those beating the CO2 drum are against
                pollution
                too. But they've missed the point that most Americans don't know or care
                what
                they're ranting about. Ask most Americans and you'll get this response:
                "Greenhouse gasses? I don't own a greenhouse, it's not my problem."
                You guys do a great job preaching to the converted, but your message is
                not
                getting thru to Homer Simpson. Focus on stopping smog, that's something
                most
                Americans can understand.

                MJ

                >
                > Good Day MJ,
                >
                > I understand your frustration, and agree with your concern over the
                general
                > disregard for pollution by many people. The big question is do you want
                to
                > bring about change or just vent your rage at a system that seems to
                ignore
                > you. I would guess that if I was to confront you and try to physically
                push
                > you that you would do your best to knock me back on my ass. I would
                > probably do the same, if someone was to push me.
                >
                > Here in California most cities provide roadside recycling, where on
                garbage
                > day, the recyclables are picked up and taken to a centralized recycling
                > center. Just a few years ago, most recyclables went to the landfill.
                Years
                > ago tetraethyl lead was added to gasoline, which caused lead
                particulates to
                > poison the land alongside of freeways. Today, we use lead free
                gasoline.
                > Today, solar panels are in short supply and wind power was advertised on
                the
                > Olympic Games. These positive changes were brought about by polite
                people,
                > who presented convincing arguments.
                >
                > The same scientists who are worried about CO2 are worried about acid
                rain,
                > resource depletion, carcinogenic particulates, and other forms of
                pollution.
                > You might find that these same people, who you attack with such venom,
                could
                > be your strongest supporters.
                >
                > People want to be shown a better future by leaders, not insulted by
                angry
                > protestors. Your heart is in the right place, and I think a man as
                smart
                > and concerned as you can make great contributions. We need people to
                focus
                > their passion on making positive changes, to help lead us all to a
                better
                > future.
                >
                > I look forward to seeing positive solutions to some of these problems.
                >
                > Best Wishes Brother,
                > Chuck Nolan
                > President
                > Modular Energy Solutions -
                > Tomorrow's energy today
                > 182 N. Taaffe St
                > Sunnyvale, CA 94086-4919
                > United States
                > T: 408-733-8749
                > F: 408-733-8779
                > E: chucknln@...
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: MJ [mailto:mike211@...]
                > Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 5:46 PM
                > Subject: [tomorrow-energy] CO2 scams
                >
                >
                >
                > CO2 isn't pollution, it's a scam. Pollution is the stuff that makes
                you
                > sick.
                > CO2 concentrations would have to be 1000 times the concentration in
                the
                > atmosphere before it ever even started to be a toxic problem. Nobody
                is
                > dieing from CO2 poisoning. Tens of thousands are dieing from
                > urban-industrial
                > pollution, and the problem has been around since the end of ww2. CO2
                and
                > global warming are just the latest in a long line of excuses that city
                > inhabitants have used to avoid coming to grips with the basic fact
                that
                > smog
                > kills. City people are shitting in their nest, then rolling in it and
                > blaming
                > the smell on their neighbor's farts. There is no point taking any of
                this
                > CO2
                > scam seriously until there is meaningful efforts on the part of cities
                to
                > stop
                > smog. It's very easy to do and there is no excuse to keep putting it
                off
                > while more and more people die from it.
                >
                > CO2 is Carbon Dioxide it's not smog and it won't kill you or even make
                you
                > sick in the concentrations found in the atmosphere. SMOG is the mix of
                > toxic
                > air pollutants that kill. CO2 is a big red herring.
                >
                > The industrial revolution has been the central cause for the increase
                in
                > pollutants in the atmosphere over the last three centuries. Before
                1950,
                > the
                > majority of this pollution was created from the burning of coal for
                energy
                > generation, space heating, cooking, and transportation. Under the
                right
                > conditions, the smoke and sulfur dioxide produced from the burning of
                coal
                > can
                > combine with fog to create industrial smog. In high concentrations,
                > industrial
                > smog can be extremely toxic to humans and other living organisms.
                London
                > is
                > world famous for its episodes of industrial smog. The most famous
                London
                > smog
                > event occurred in December, 1952 when five days of calm foggy weather
                > created
                > a toxic atmosphere that claimed about 4000 human lives. Today, the use
                of
                > other fossil fuels, nuclear power, and hydroelectricity instead of
                coal
                > has
                > greatly reduced the occurrence of industrial smog. However, the
                burning of
                > fossil fuels like gasoline can create another atmospheric pollution
                > problem
                > known as photochemical smog. Photochemical smog is a condition that
                > develops
                > when primary pollutants (oxides of nitrogen and volatile organic
                compounds
                > created from fossil fuel combustion) interact under the influence of
                > sunlight
                > to produce a mixture of hundreds of different and hazardous chemicals
                > known as
                > secondary pollutants. The Table below [see URL] describes the major
                toxic
                > constituents of photochemical smog and their effects on the
                environment.
                > Development of photochemical smog is typically associated with
                specific
                > climatic conditions and centers of high population density. Cities
                like
                > Los
                > Angeles, New York, Sydney, and Vancouver frequently suffer episodes of
                > photochemical smog. In recent years, scientists have also noticed that
                > smaller
                > communities can develop similar pollution problems if conditions are
                > right.
                >
                > more:
                > http://royal.okanagan.bc.ca/mpidwirn/atmosphereandclimate/smog.html
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                > Alternate Energy Resource Network
                > http://www.alternate-energy.net
                > Visit our new groups Next Generation Grid
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid/
                > Alternative Energy Politics
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/
                > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                >
                >
                >
                >


                > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                --
                > --
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy/
                >
                > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > tomorrow-energy-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                Service.
                >
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                > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                > Alternate Energy Resource Network
                > http://www.alternate-energy.net
                > Visit our new groups Next Generation Grid
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid/
                > Alternative Energy Politics
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/
                > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                Alternate Energy Resource Network
                http://www.alternate-energy.net
                Visit our new groups Next Generation Grid
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid/
                Alternative Energy Politics
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/
                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




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                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                Alternate Energy Resource Network
                http://www.alternate-energy.net
                Visit our new groups Next Generation Grid
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid/
                Alternative Energy Politics
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/
                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                Yahoo! Groups Links
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