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[toad] Re: What BETA ?

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  • toadman
    ... Yet we ve already been seeing a delay in releases. From several a week, to several weeks between them. The new release was suppose to release on Friday
    Message 1 of 15 , Nov 1, 1999
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      > Exactly my thinking. However a year is an awfully long time to
      > get my toad fix (ahem, I mean wait for new features :) How about
      > every three months a new feature (beta), with the off months for
      > non-critical bug fixes for bugs which you can work around by
      > doing something easy (bug fix) and a bi yearly or yearly release
      > for the most rock solid version there was over the year even if
      > that version is 8 months old or so (comercial). The other problem
      > might be features that come down from Management (br...), Toadman
      > do you get a lot of projects that come from your supervisors etc?

      Yet we've already been seeing a delay in releases. From several a week,
      to several weeks between them. The new release was suppose to release
      on Friday but will most likely be today while we wait for the Quest web
      guys to update the version string on a web page <!^%$#> This is Nov 1
      and the last release was 9/7!

      Previous to the 9/7 version, all of us spent considerable time with
      profilers and memory tracking software trying to reduce the resource
      usage of the Browser and any memory leaks in TOAD overall. That was a
      significant gain. And currently, in conjunction with new DBA
      functionality, two guys are converting my procedural code into an object
      model for all of the database objects which will also improve
      stability/maintainability.

      > Or are you pretty much doing your own thing and as long as people
      > keep paying, Quest leaves you alone?

      I wish that that were true. :)
    • Chris Wang
      No problem with delaying the major releases. But the reason that made Toad so great is the responsiveness and ability to come out with the fixes right after a
      Message 2 of 15 , Nov 1, 1999
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        No problem with delaying the major releases.  But the reason that made Toad so great is the responsiveness and ability to come out with the fixes right after a bug is found, and (Previously)the daily updates of TOAD with new features.  One year, even 3 month is too long of a time to wait.  A good compromise, in my opinion, would be

        Monthly releases of TOAD with all the new features,
                with weekly releases of the same version containing the bug fixes. 

        Great job, Toadman!  (If you are not tired of hearing that by now.)

        Thanks
        Chris

          -----Original Message-----
          From:   toadman [SMTP:toadman@...]
          Sent:   Monday, November 01, 1999 7:20 AM
          To:     Joe Charpak
          Cc:     'toad@egroups.com'
          Subject:        [toad] Re: What BETA ?

          > Exactly my thinking. However a year is an awfully long time to
          > get my toad fix (ahem, I mean wait for new features :) How about
          > every three months a new feature (beta), with the off months for
          > non-critical bug fixes for bugs which you can work around by
          > doing something easy (bug fix) and a bi yearly or yearly release
          > for the most rock solid version there was over the year even if
          > that version is 8 months old or so (comercial). The other problem
          > might be features that come down from Management (br...), Toadman
          > do you get a lot of projects that come from your supervisors etc?

          Yet we've already been seeing a delay in releases.  From several a week,
          to several weeks between them.  The new release was suppose to release
          on Friday but will most likely be today while we wait for the Quest web
          guys to update the version string on a web page <!^%$#>   This is Nov 1
          and the last release was 9/7! 

          Previous to the 9/7 version, all of us spent considerable time with
          profilers and memory tracking software trying to reduce the resource
          usage of the Browser and any memory leaks in TOAD overall.  That was a
          significant gain.  And currently, in conjunction with new DBA
          functionality, two guys are converting my procedural code into an object
          model for all of the database objects which will also improve
          stability/maintainability.

          > Or are you pretty much doing your own thing and as long as people
          > keep paying, Quest leaves you alone?

          I wish that that were true.  :)

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      • Ken Komoto
        I definitely agree with the Toadman on this one. I support a large with many, many objects of all kinds. If a problem is reported and I cannot replicate it, I
        Message 3 of 15 , Nov 1, 1999
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          I definitely agree with the Toadman on this one.

          I support a large with many, many objects of all kinds.

          If a problem is reported and I cannot replicate it, I cannot fix it.
          And my users know this is a standard policy. Show me or explain to me
          exactly how you got to the failure. IF I can replicate the problem,
          then I can probably fix it. IF I CANNOT replicate the problem, then
          I CANNOT fix it with any degree of reliability...

          And I will not release a fix that is an unreliable fix...

          At 10:20 AM 10/29/99 -0400, you wrote:
          >> Given the complexity of both Oracle and the windows environment:
          >>
          >> "I cannot reproduce it, therefore it does not exist".
          >> is not entirely credible.
          >
          >No, but if I can't reproduce it, it can not be fixed. You would agree
          >with that? Would you also agree that "Given the complexity of both
          >Oracle and the windows environments" that an access violation for one
          >user of an app that a thousand other users do not report, does not prove
          >that the problem lies within that app, especially if it also can not be
          >reproduced by me?
          ============================================================
          Kenneth Komoto Email: kgkomoto@...
          Information Resources Phone: (530)757-3276/752/7197
          University of California, Davis Fax : (530)757-8778
          Davis, Ca 95616
        • Hewlett, Karl
          I do not question in the least that TOAD is gaining new features, that those features are valuable nor that we (users) are asking for them. I also agree that
          Message 4 of 15 , Nov 1, 1999
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            I do not question in the least that TOAD is gaining new features, that those
            features are valuable nor that we (users) are asking for them. I also agree
            that prompt bug fixes are a good thing.

            I do suggest there is a need to balance the desire to be current with the
            time necessary to find, track and solve bugs in code.

            I personally would like something similar to what I understand Joe Charpark
            is suggesting; any number of betas, bug fixes as necessary and a release of
            new functionality on a regular, timed basis. The new releases (opposed to
            the betas and bug fixes) to be known good (maybe refined and bug-fixed)
            versions of the betas. This implies slightly older code than we are seeing
            in the present commercial releases.

            I think the suggestion from Chris Wong also has merit (Monthly releases of
            TOAD with all the new features, with weekly releases of the same version
            containing the bug fixes.) Except maybe six-weekly.

            Karl Hewlett


            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: toadman [SMTP:toadman@...]
            > Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 1:20 AM
            > To: Joe Charpak
            > Cc: 'toad@egroups.com'
            > Subject: [toad] Re: What BETA ?
            >
            > > Exactly my thinking. However a year is an awfully long time to
            > > get my toad fix (ahem, I mean wait for new features :)
            [Hewlett, Karl] <snip>
            > Yet we've already been seeing a delay in releases. From several a week,
            > to several weeks between them.
            [Hewlett, Karl] <snip>

            > Previous to the 9/7 version, all of us spent considerable time with
            > profilers and memory tracking software trying to reduce the resource
            > usage of the Browser and any memory leaks in TOAD overall. That was a
            > significant gain.
            [Hewlett, Karl] <snip>

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          • toadman
            ... Which brings up a point I should make to the group. All programmers (at least the ones who give a spit about their code) are bound to get a tad defensive
            Message 5 of 15 , Nov 2, 1999
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              > Of course it works both ways. We have to remember we are expecting Toadman
              > to deliver better than others (And give him some slack because of our
              > expectations) while he continues to deliver the tool of choice for us.

              Which brings up a point I should make to the group. All programmers (at
              least the ones who give a spit about their code) are bound to get a tad
              defensive about their work/products. Because of that, the knee-jerk
              response to criticism is often an unjustified backlash. I don't want
              the recent threads about thoroughly documenting problems to be taken the
              wrong way. Someone emailed me offline to apologize for a public posting
              and I want to say that it isn't necessary. Maybe it takes a slap on the
              back of the head occasionally to make sure someone is still listening.
              Even if they were listening, it doesn't hurt to make sure. :)

              > Also in my experience of supporting medium sized apps it becomes possible to
              > refine the app during that support - if there are no major changes
              > happening.

              If you take a look at the updates.txt (that huge email posted to the
              list earlier), you will see that the majority of the month was spent
              chasing down a lot of little problems. The only major new feature was
              the Sql Modeler, which is pretty issolated. In terms of clean-up, this
              was a good release.
            • toadman
              ... I think we are going to make use of betas much more than before and not just for major new features. The entire Quest machine is dealing with TOAD now and
              Message 6 of 15 , Nov 2, 1999
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                > I personally would like something similar to what I understand Joe Charpark
                > is suggesting; any number of betas, bug fixes as necessary and a release of
                > new functionality on a regular, timed basis. The new releases (opposed to
                > the betas and bug fixes) to be known good (maybe refined and bug-fixed)
                > versions of the betas. This implies slightly older code than we are seeing
                > in the present commercial releases.

                I think we are going to make use of betas much more than before and not
                just for major new features. The entire Quest machine is dealing with
                TOAD now and that means that tech support needs new releases in their
                hands before they start accepting calls on new releases (allow a week
                for major releases). And marketing wants to update the web site to
                reflect any neat new stuff. With all of that AND trying to stagger new
                features while also getting a release out once every 4-6 weeks, it gets
                difficult. Too much down time for development.

                So, I agree that the beta approach seems to work.
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