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Re: [tmboptical] First light with a mount to do the APM Justice

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  • Neil Fleming
    Looks pretty good, Hunter. You wouldn t have a place to post full-sized versions, do you? That always helps when diagnosing a problem. ...
    Message 1 of 24 , Mar 29, 2008
      Looks pretty good, Hunter. You wouldn't have a place
      to post full-sized versions, do you? That always
      helps when diagnosing a problem.

      ...Neil

      --- hewholooks <hewholooks@...> wrote:

      > Guys,
      >
      > I got a new toy - the Astro-Physics Mach1GTO to
      > guide the APM 130/780.
      > What a difference!
      >
      > Here's the first light (if a mount can have first
      > light) and it already
      > has improved the imaging of the scope. The
      > potential of the scope is
      > starting to emerge. Now if I could just get a
      > decicated field
      > flattener and get rid of the coma around the edges.
      > The AP flattener
      > is OK, but it's not doing the scope justice.
      >
      > First 5 images (all from the same image) in this
      > gallery. Don't be too
      > harsh on the stars - I know they are a problem.
      >
      > http://hwilson.zenfolio.com/p781396937
      >
      > Thanks again for looking,
      >
      > Hunter
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >


      www.flemingastrophotography.com
      Direct from Boston - brilliant diamonds in pea soup
      Also check out the astro_narrowband Yahoo group!
    • Wayne G
      ... WG: I wish you didn t have to use an A-P flattener, Hunter--- if I have one caveat with the APM/ TMB line of Apos it is this: while they were busy
      Message 2 of 24 , Mar 29, 2008
        hewholooks wrote:
        > Now if I could just get a decicated field flattener and get rid of the coma around the edges. The AP flattener is OK, but it's not doing the scope justice.
        >

        WG: I wish you didn't have to use an A-P flattener, Hunter--- if I
        have one caveat with the APM/ TMB line of Apos it is this: while they
        were busy bringing out model after new model of apo with revised tube
        designs (CNC, LW, et al) and other changes, along with many other
        products, so infrequently did they ever actually /finish/ a complete
        system for the astrophotographer, even though this was what the OTA's
        were designed for! So everyone must resort to piecemeal when it comes
        to needing a flattener in most cases.

        And while a FF was available for my 152 when I bought it, it was
        designed for just one (film) camera (Pentax 6x7 which I have) and was
        then later found to be greatly improved by making some simple but
        important changes pioneered by members of this group as I recall;
        changes which I would have hoped should have been thought through
        /before/ being brought to market, not soon after, after many were
        already sold.

        This has always been the one weak spot in the APM line which holds it
        back in some ways of gaining the same reputation and credibility as the
        AP line, in many people's minds. Hopefully efforts will be made in the
        future to correct this long-standing deficiency.

        WayneG
      • hewholooks
        Neil, That site provides for full size versions. Just right click on the image and it can be downloaded. I hesitate to mention it however, as it s pretty
        Message 3 of 24 , Mar 29, 2008
          Neil,

          That site provides for full size versions. Just right click on the
          image and it can be downloaded. I hesitate to mention it however, as
          it's pretty ugly.

          Initially I have balked at the expense of a dedicated field flattener
          for this scope, but now would gladly pay it _IF_ I could be sure it
          would do the job in cleaning up the edges of the images. Also, I
          have been talking with one guy who has been waiting many months (I
          think he said a year) for the flattener for this scope.

          I could try the Televue 0.8 reducer/flattener, but I don't want to
          lose any focal length.

          Hate to open up this bag of worms again, but now that I have some
          serious guiding capability, I need to solve this issue.

          Here's the original test image - one frame, unprocessed - to show the
          field problems. Just right click on it to have access to full size
          image.
          http://hwilson.zenfolio.com/p623834054/?photo=h1102349F#285357215

          Hunter


          Hunter

          --- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, Neil Fleming <neilfleming@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Looks pretty good, Hunter. You wouldn't have a place
          > to post full-sized versions, do you? That always
          > helps when diagnosing a problem.
          >
          > ...Neil
          >
          > --- hewholooks <hewholooks@...> wrote:
          >
          > > Guys,
          > >
          > > I got a new toy - the Astro-Physics Mach1GTO to
          > > guide the APM 130/780.
          > > What a difference!
          > >
          > > Here's the first light (if a mount can have first
          > > light) and it already
          > > has improved the imaging of the scope. The
          > > potential of the scope is
          > > starting to emerge. Now if I could just get a
          > > decicated field
          > > flattener and get rid of the coma around the edges.
          > > The AP flattener
          > > is OK, but it's not doing the scope justice.
          > >
          > > First 5 images (all from the same image) in this
          > > gallery. Don't be too
          > > harsh on the stars - I know they are a problem.
          > >
          > > http://hwilson.zenfolio.com/p781396937
          > >
          > > Thanks again for looking,
          > >
          > > Hunter
          > >
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          > www.flemingastrophotography.com
          > Direct from Boston - brilliant diamonds in pea soup
          > Also check out the astro_narrowband Yahoo group!
          >
        • apm_telecopes
          Hi Hunter may you have a look to images made by diffrent customers using the Apo 130/780 with the delicated flattner
          Message 4 of 24 , Mar 30, 2008
            Hi Hunter

            may you have a look to images made by diffrent customers using the Apo 130/780 with the delicated flattner

            http://www.apm-telescopes.com/info_bilder.php?artikel_id=31439

            is that guarantee enough that our combo, designed by TMB Optical works for you too ?

            regards

            Markus
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: hewholooks
            To: tmboptical@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 12:46 AM
            Subject: [tmboptical] Field Flattener for 130/780: Was "First light with mount for 130/780


            Neil,

            That site provides for full size versions. Just right click on the
            image and it can be downloaded. I hesitate to mention it however, as
            it's pretty ugly.

            Initially I have balked at the expense of a dedicated field flattener
            for this scope, but now would gladly pay it _IF_ I could be sure it
            would do the job in cleaning up the edges of the images. Also, I
            have been talking with one guy who has been waiting many months (I
            think he said a year) for the flattener for this scope.

            I could try the Televue 0.8 reducer/flattener, but I don't want to
            lose any focal length.

            Hate to open up this bag of worms again, but now that I have some
            serious guiding capability, I need to solve this issue.

            Here's the original test image - one frame, unprocessed - to show the
            field problems. Just right click on it to have access to full size
            image.
            http://hwilson.zenfolio.com/p623834054/?photo=h1102349F#285357215

            Hunter

            Hunter

            --- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, Neil Fleming <neilfleming@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Looks pretty good, Hunter. You wouldn't have a place
            > to post full-sized versions, do you? That always
            > helps when diagnosing a problem.
            >
            > ...Neil
            >
            > --- hewholooks <hewholooks@...> wrote:
            >
            > > Guys,
            > >
            > > I got a new toy - the Astro-Physics Mach1GTO to
            > > guide the APM 130/780.
            > > What a difference!
            > >
            > > Here's the first light (if a mount can have first
            > > light) and it already
            > > has improved the imaging of the scope. The
            > > potential of the scope is
            > > starting to emerge. Now if I could just get a
            > > decicated field
            > > flattener and get rid of the coma around the edges.
            > > The AP flattener
            > > is OK, but it's not doing the scope justice.
            > >
            > > First 5 images (all from the same image) in this
            > > gallery. Don't be too
            > > harsh on the stars - I know they are a problem.
            > >
            > > http://hwilson.zenfolio.com/p781396937
            > >
            > > Thanks again for looking,
            > >
            > > Hunter
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            > www.flemingastrophotography.com
            > Direct from Boston - brilliant diamonds in pea soup
            > Also check out the astro_narrowband Yahoo group!
            >





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Neil Fleming
            ... It s not that bad . ... Yeah, they do a good job at that. I have one for my TMB, and it works great. ... Hhhhmmm... Hard to see why it should take so
            Message 5 of 24 , Mar 30, 2008
              > That site provides for full size versions. Just
              > right click on the
              > image and it can be downloaded. I hesitate to
              > mention it however, as
              > it's pretty ugly.

              It's not that bad <g>.

              > Initially I have balked at the expense of a
              > dedicated field flattener
              > for this scope, but now would gladly pay it _IF_ I
              > could be sure it
              > would do the job in cleaning up the edges of the
              > images.

              Yeah, they do a good job at that. I have one for my
              TMB, and it works great.

              > Also, I
              > have been talking with one guy who has been waiting
              > many months (I
              > think he said a year) for the flattener for this
              > scope.

              Hhhhmmm... Hard to see why it should take so long.

              > I could try the Televue 0.8 reducer/flattener, but I
              > don't want to
              > lose any focal length.

              Too small for the FOV. The TAK equivalent is designed
              for a slightly longer focal length. Perhaps one of
              the Astro-Physics ones would work. My first choice
              would be to badger Markus at APM, though.

              Good luck...Neil


              www.flemingastrophotography.com
              Direct from Boston - brilliant diamonds in pea soup
              Also check out the astro_narrowband Yahoo group!
            • Mark Rieck
              ... Who in the heck is the dealer that ordered a FF a year ago? Teton has been associated with APM for right at around a year now, and every FF order has been
              Message 6 of 24 , Mar 30, 2008
                > Initially I have balked at the expense of a dedicated field flattener
                > for this scope, but now would gladly pay it _IF_ I could be sure it
                > would do the job in cleaning up the edges of the images. Also, I
                > have been talking with one guy who has been waiting many months (I
                > think he said a year) for the flattener for this scope.

                Who in the heck is the dealer that ordered a FF a year ago? Teton has
                been associated with APM for right at around a year now, and every FF
                order has been filled in about 2-4 weeks. The only expception has been
                those orders placed around December last year, when APM was awaiting
                the delivery of more lenses, which arrived in February to the best of
                my knowledge. After APM did receive new lenses, completed FF's and
                custom adapters for 152's were delivered in 2-3 weeks, and for 130's 2-
                3 weeks after that. Whoever you're referring to should double check
                with their dealer to insure their order was placed in first place.
                Something's not right.

                I suppose the possiblity exists that FF lenses for 130's ran out before
                late last year, but only Markus can answer that with certainty.

                Mark
              • Mark Rieck
                ... I ... they ... tube ... complete ... OTA s ... comes ... was ... it ... the ... the ... I ve followed this group for many years as well, but sure as heck
                Message 7 of 24 , Mar 30, 2008
                  > WG: I wish you didn't have to use an A-P flattener, Hunter--- if
                  I
                  > have one caveat with the APM/ TMB line of Apos it is this: while
                  they
                  > were busy bringing out model after new model of apo with revised
                  tube
                  > designs (CNC, LW, et al) and other changes, along with many other
                  > products, so infrequently did they ever actually /finish/ a
                  complete
                  > system for the astrophotographer, even though this was what the
                  OTA's
                  > were designed for! So everyone must resort to piecemeal when it
                  comes
                  > to needing a flattener in most cases.
                  >
                  > And while a FF was available for my 152 when I bought it, it was
                  > designed for just one (film) camera (Pentax 6x7 which I have) and
                  was
                  > then later found to be greatly improved by making some simple but
                  > important changes pioneered by members of this group as I recall;
                  > changes which I would have hoped should have been thought through
                  > /before/ being brought to market, not soon after, after many were
                  > already sold.
                  >
                  > This has always been the one weak spot in the APM line which holds
                  it
                  > back in some ways of gaining the same reputation and credibility as
                  the
                  > AP line, in many people's minds. Hopefully efforts will be made in
                  the
                  > future to correct this long-standing deficiency.
                  >
                  > WayneG
                  >

                  I've followed this group for many years as well, but sure as heck
                  won't even begin to claim recalling all that has ever been discussed.
                  With that said, as far back as I can remember, Tom designed the full
                  field flatteners quite a few years ago...if not with or shortly after
                  the telescope optics. The same lenses are used for the 6x7 and CCD
                  FF's. The rest is for all practical purposes, little more than
                  adapters to affix whatever camera is to be mounted to it. Since each
                  camera is an aftermarket product(as compared to the line of scopes
                  itself), there's an incredible number of variables in spacing and
                  mating. My guess is that is why each FF includes a custom made
                  adapter.

                  With all the FF's orders placed thus far for Teton clients, APM has
                  been able to draw from most popular camera maker's published tech
                  specs to establish spacing and/or mating. Even then, I know first
                  hand of cases where SBIG(used for example since they are the most
                  popular)has had mid-production changes in build of a given camera
                  series. Those changes had an affect on proper spacing and/or mating.
                  No one but the owner and camera maker(if the camera was purchased new
                  from them)are privy to these differences, and from personal
                  experience, far quicker and easier for the camera owner to research.
                  Long story short, if one chooses to image they would be well served
                  to obtain this information if and when spacing and mating(such as
                  well planned for use with full sized field flattener)to a FF is
                  planned.

                  Another option, although completely up to APM to accept, decline, or
                  even consider; would be to send an imaging train to them to insure
                  precise measurements can be taken if or when the user is incapable of
                  providing it. I know of one optical lab that will flat out refuse to
                  perform mods to alter the location of the image plane or produce
                  adapters designed to bring a camera or sensor to it in cases where
                  spacing is critical, without the equipment to be used being sent to
                  them. I believe that is because of any one of a number of variables
                  affecting tilt, spacing, and mating can affect the image produced at
                  the image plane.

                  While not an avid imager myself, I do consider(as a fellow
                  astronomer, not a dealer) the fact that APM can produce a FF and
                  custom adapters that can and have produced the incredible results
                  they have in the right hands, a noteworthy feat in itself.
                  Historically, fine tuning an image train has always been up to the
                  imager, whether professional or amateur. That includes collimating a
                  FF to the instrument, insuring precise orthagonality between imaging
                  train components, and even final tilt angle of an array or elumsion.
                  Given all the variables involved, even between 2 identically equipped
                  optical/imaging trains, I don't see how it could be any other way.

                  More and more amateurs every year are producing 'publishable quality'
                  images. Despite that, a handful of relatively famous imagers continue
                  to be published regularly; even when changing scopes, imaging
                  equipment, or mounts from time to time. I believe there's a reason
                  for that.

                  Starting from the ground up, a GEM requires a fair bit of fine tuning
                  by the imager. Adjustments used for precise polar alignment are used
                  by many. These same adjustments can quite literally have hours, if
                  not days or weeks invested in them to slowly trim it down to as close
                  to perfection as possible. An instrument itself is subject to
                  insuring it is precisely collimated in order to obtain optimal
                  results. Orthagonality between instrument and mount, corrections for
                  periodic error, gear train lash, adjustments between guidescope(if
                  used)and main scope, finding a guide star at optimal position, all
                  effect the raw data gathered. So does alignment and spacing between
                  image train components and main instrument.

                  Tom Back had a sort of knack as to what change in lens design would
                  affect what final result. I believe that probably grew from a fair
                  amount of trial and error, and more importantly the ability to retain
                  those lessons learned because they were of interest. I'll lay odds
                  the most accomplished imagers among us have a sort of knack for
                  setting up a mount, scope, and imaging train effectively. I believe
                  that probably grew from a fair amount of trial and error, and more
                  importantly the ability to retain those lessons learned because they
                  were of interest.

                  It has been said of Tom's abilities, "...with the right equipment,
                  anyone can do it." That might be true, but I'll bet the learning
                  curve is impossible to surmount for some, steep to most, and perhaps
                  more intuitive to a very few. IMHO, the same can be applied to
                  imaging.

                  Mark
                • hewholooks
                  Markus, I meant no insult to APM. It s just a lot of money for a flattener, as you know. What is current turn around time on the flattener at this time? What
                  Message 8 of 24 , Mar 30, 2008
                    Markus,

                    I meant no insult to APM. It's just a lot of money for a flattener,
                    as you know.

                    What is current turn around time on the flattener at this time?

                    What adapters does it come with? Does it screw directly onto the 3.5"
                    tube of the focuser?

                    Do I deal with you of one of your US dealers?

                    Hunter

                    --- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, "apm_telecopes" <anfrage@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Hunter
                    >
                    > may you have a look to images made by diffrent customers using the
                    Apo 130/780 with the delicated flattner
                    >
                    > http://www.apm-telescopes.com/info_bilder.php?artikel_id=31439
                    >
                    > is that guarantee enough that our combo, designed by TMB Optical
                    works for you too ?
                    >
                    > regards
                    >
                    > Markus
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: hewholooks
                    > To: tmboptical@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 12:46 AM
                    > Subject: [tmboptical] Field Flattener for 130/780: Was "First
                    light with mount for 130/780
                    >
                    >
                    > Neil,
                    >
                    > That site provides for full size versions. Just right click on
                    the
                    > image and it can be downloaded. I hesitate to mention it however,
                    as
                    > it's pretty ugly.
                    >
                    > Initially I have balked at the expense of a dedicated field
                    flattener
                    > for this scope, but now would gladly pay it _IF_ I could be sure
                    it
                    > would do the job in cleaning up the edges of the images. Also, I
                    > have been talking with one guy who has been waiting many months
                    (I
                    > think he said a year) for the flattener for this scope.
                    >
                    > I could try the Televue 0.8 reducer/flattener, but I don't want
                    to
                    > lose any focal length.
                    >
                    > Hate to open up this bag of worms again, but now that I have some
                    > serious guiding capability, I need to solve this issue.
                    >
                    > Here's the original test image - one frame, unprocessed - to show
                    the
                    > field problems. Just right click on it to have access to full
                    size
                    > image.
                    > http://hwilson.zenfolio.com/p623834054/?photo=h1102349F#285357215
                    >
                    > Hunter
                    >
                    > Hunter
                    >
                    > --- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, Neil Fleming <neilfleming@>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Looks pretty good, Hunter. You wouldn't have a place
                    > > to post full-sized versions, do you? That always
                    > > helps when diagnosing a problem.
                    > >
                    > > ...Neil
                    > >
                    > > --- hewholooks <hewholooks@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > > Guys,
                    > > >
                    > > > I got a new toy - the Astro-Physics Mach1GTO to
                    > > > guide the APM 130/780.
                    > > > What a difference!
                    > > >
                    > > > Here's the first light (if a mount can have first
                    > > > light) and it already
                    > > > has improved the imaging of the scope. The
                    > > > potential of the scope is
                    > > > starting to emerge. Now if I could just get a
                    > > > decicated field
                    > > > flattener and get rid of the coma around the edges.
                    > > > The AP flattener
                    > > > is OK, but it's not doing the scope justice.
                    > > >
                    > > > First 5 images (all from the same image) in this
                    > > > gallery. Don't be too
                    > > > harsh on the stars - I know they are a problem.
                    > > >
                    > > > http://hwilson.zenfolio.com/p781396937
                    > > >
                    > > > Thanks again for looking,
                    > > >
                    > > > Hunter
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > ------------------------------------
                    > > >
                    > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > www.flemingastrophotography.com
                    > > Direct from Boston - brilliant diamonds in pea soup
                    > > Also check out the astro_narrowband Yahoo group!
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • hewholooks
                    You re just being nice, Neil. It s OK for me, but it doesn t meet the standards of the breed (APM). I ll keep looking into it. Hunter
                    Message 9 of 24 , Mar 30, 2008
                      You're just being nice, Neil. It's OK for me, but it doesn't meet
                      the standards of the breed (APM).

                      I'll keep looking into it.

                      Hunter

                      --- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, Neil Fleming <neilfleming@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > > That site provides for full size versions. Just
                      > > right click on the
                      > > image and it can be downloaded. I hesitate to
                      > > mention it however, as
                      > > it's pretty ugly.
                      >
                      > It's not that bad <g>.
                      >
                      > > Initially I have balked at the expense of a
                      > > dedicated field flattener
                      > > for this scope, but now would gladly pay it _IF_ I
                      > > could be sure it
                      > > would do the job in cleaning up the edges of the
                      > > images.
                      >
                      > Yeah, they do a good job at that. I have one for my
                      > TMB, and it works great.
                      >
                      > > Also, I
                      > > have been talking with one guy who has been waiting
                      > > many months (I
                      > > think he said a year) for the flattener for this
                      > > scope.
                      >
                      > Hhhhmmm... Hard to see why it should take so long.
                      >
                      > > I could try the Televue 0.8 reducer/flattener, but I
                      > > don't want to
                      > > lose any focal length.
                      >
                      > Too small for the FOV. The TAK equivalent is designed
                      > for a slightly longer focal length. Perhaps one of
                      > the Astro-Physics ones would work. My first choice
                      > would be to badger Markus at APM, though.
                      >
                      > Good luck...Neil
                      >
                      >
                      > www.flemingastrophotography.com
                      > Direct from Boston - brilliant diamonds in pea soup
                      > Also check out the astro_narrowband Yahoo group!
                      >
                    • hewholooks
                      Mark, What you say certainly holds some credence, but as you know, there are optical systems out there (Astro-Physics, Televue, and certain Takahashi scopes)
                      Message 10 of 24 , Mar 30, 2008
                        Mark,

                        What you say certainly holds some credence, but as you know, there
                        are optical systems out there (Astro-Physics, Televue, and certain
                        Takahashi scopes) that go to great lengths to provide complete
                        systems of flatteners and adapters to suit the astroimager. This is
                        in their best interest as it makes their scopes produce remarkable
                        images from less than remarkable imagers.

                        While the wizards of this discipline will continue to find ways,
                        almost magically, to flat field their optics and produce quality
                        images, there is no reason that optics houses cannot provide with
                        reasonable availability, apparatus to produce quality images with
                        their multi-thousand dollar telescopes that have "visual quality
                        curved fields". What is the sense in buying a 6K to 20K refractor
                        that produces coma in 25% of the field? A dedicated flattener should
                        be available to the consumer with a reasonable amount of effort and
                        expense so that these telescopes can be utilized to their full
                        potential.

                        APM telescopes are second to none, but when I researched my purchase,
                        I seriously considered the Televue 127 because of it's stable of
                        imaging accesories.

                        I'm with Wayne on some of these issues. Why did I try to use an AP
                        flattener? Because it was available and reasonably priced. Has it
                        been a success for me? Only partially, as you can see.

                        I am not dissatisfied with my choice of scope, much to the contrary -
                        I am very happy with it, I'm just trying to move towards the quality
                        that this scope can produce. I now have the mount. I need the flat
                        field.

                        I have even been steered toward a Televue 0.8 reducer/flattener by an
                        APM dealer. I don't know if it was a quality or avalability issue,
                        but the full field flattener wasn't even suggested when I said I
                        didn't want to lose any focal length.

                        Thanks for your indulgence.

                        Hunter

                        --- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Rieck" <derklaus@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > WG: I wish you didn't have to use an A-P flattener, Hunter---
                        if
                        > I
                        > > have one caveat with the APM/ TMB line of Apos it is this: while
                        > they
                        > > were busy bringing out model after new model of apo with revised
                        > tube
                        > > designs (CNC, LW, et al) and other changes, along with many other
                        > > products, so infrequently did they ever actually /finish/ a
                        > complete
                        > > system for the astrophotographer, even though this was what the
                        > OTA's
                        > > were designed for! So everyone must resort to piecemeal when it
                        > comes
                        > > to needing a flattener in most cases.
                        > >
                        > > And while a FF was available for my 152 when I bought it, it was
                        > > designed for just one (film) camera (Pentax 6x7 which I have) and
                        > was
                        > > then later found to be greatly improved by making some simple but
                        > > important changes pioneered by members of this group as I
                        recall;
                        > > changes which I would have hoped should have been thought through
                        > > /before/ being brought to market, not soon after, after many were
                        > > already sold.
                        > >
                        > > This has always been the one weak spot in the APM line which
                        holds
                        > it
                        > > back in some ways of gaining the same reputation and credibility
                        as
                        > the
                        > > AP line, in many people's minds. Hopefully efforts will be made
                        in
                        > the
                        > > future to correct this long-standing deficiency.
                        > >
                        > > WayneG
                        > >
                        >
                        > I've followed this group for many years as well, but sure as heck
                        > won't even begin to claim recalling all that has ever been
                        discussed.
                        > With that said, as far back as I can remember, Tom designed the
                        full
                        > field flatteners quite a few years ago...if not with or shortly
                        after
                        > the telescope optics. The same lenses are used for the 6x7 and CCD
                        > FF's. The rest is for all practical purposes, little more than
                        > adapters to affix whatever camera is to be mounted to it. Since
                        each
                        > camera is an aftermarket product(as compared to the line of scopes
                        > itself), there's an incredible number of variables in spacing and
                        > mating. My guess is that is why each FF includes a custom made
                        > adapter.
                        >
                        > With all the FF's orders placed thus far for Teton clients, APM has
                        > been able to draw from most popular camera maker's published tech
                        > specs to establish spacing and/or mating. Even then, I know first
                        > hand of cases where SBIG(used for example since they are the most
                        > popular)has had mid-production changes in build of a given camera
                        > series. Those changes had an affect on proper spacing and/or
                        mating.
                        > No one but the owner and camera maker(if the camera was purchased
                        new
                        > from them)are privy to these differences, and from personal
                        > experience, far quicker and easier for the camera owner to
                        research.
                        > Long story short, if one chooses to image they would be well served
                        > to obtain this information if and when spacing and mating(such as
                        > well planned for use with full sized field flattener)to a FF is
                        > planned.
                        >
                        > Another option, although completely up to APM to accept, decline,
                        or
                        > even consider; would be to send an imaging train to them to insure
                        > precise measurements can be taken if or when the user is incapable
                        of
                        > providing it. I know of one optical lab that will flat out refuse
                        to
                        > perform mods to alter the location of the image plane or produce
                        > adapters designed to bring a camera or sensor to it in cases where
                        > spacing is critical, without the equipment to be used being sent to
                        > them. I believe that is because of any one of a number of variables
                        > affecting tilt, spacing, and mating can affect the image produced
                        at
                        > the image plane.
                        >
                        > While not an avid imager myself, I do consider(as a fellow
                        > astronomer, not a dealer) the fact that APM can produce a FF and
                        > custom adapters that can and have produced the incredible results
                        > they have in the right hands, a noteworthy feat in itself.
                        > Historically, fine tuning an image train has always been up to the
                        > imager, whether professional or amateur. That includes collimating
                        a
                        > FF to the instrument, insuring precise orthagonality between
                        imaging
                        > train components, and even final tilt angle of an array or
                        elumsion.
                        > Given all the variables involved, even between 2 identically
                        equipped
                        > optical/imaging trains, I don't see how it could be any other way.
                        >
                        > More and more amateurs every year are producing 'publishable
                        quality'
                        > images. Despite that, a handful of relatively famous imagers
                        continue
                        > to be published regularly; even when changing scopes, imaging
                        > equipment, or mounts from time to time. I believe there's a reason
                        > for that.
                        >
                        > Starting from the ground up, a GEM requires a fair bit of fine
                        tuning
                        > by the imager. Adjustments used for precise polar alignment are
                        used
                        > by many. These same adjustments can quite literally have hours, if
                        > not days or weeks invested in them to slowly trim it down to as
                        close
                        > to perfection as possible. An instrument itself is subject to
                        > insuring it is precisely collimated in order to obtain optimal
                        > results. Orthagonality between instrument and mount, corrections
                        for
                        > periodic error, gear train lash, adjustments between guidescope(if
                        > used)and main scope, finding a guide star at optimal position, all
                        > effect the raw data gathered. So does alignment and spacing between
                        > image train components and main instrument.
                        >
                        > Tom Back had a sort of knack as to what change in lens design would
                        > affect what final result. I believe that probably grew from a fair
                        > amount of trial and error, and more importantly the ability to
                        retain
                        > those lessons learned because they were of interest. I'll lay odds
                        > the most accomplished imagers among us have a sort of knack for
                        > setting up a mount, scope, and imaging train effectively. I believe
                        > that probably grew from a fair amount of trial and error, and more
                        > importantly the ability to retain those lessons learned because
                        they
                        > were of interest.
                        >
                        > It has been said of Tom's abilities, "...with the right equipment,
                        > anyone can do it." That might be true, but I'll bet the learning
                        > curve is impossible to surmount for some, steep to most, and
                        perhaps
                        > more intuitive to a very few. IMHO, the same can be applied to
                        > imaging.
                        >
                        > Mark
                        >
                      • APM Telescopes
                        none waited 1 year , 2 european dealers and 1 european customer waited 4 to 5 month for the 130 , this was the longest wait time we ever have had , but only
                        Message 11 of 24 , Mar 31, 2008
                          none waited 1 year , 2 european dealers and 1 european customer waited 4 to 5 month for the 130 , this was the longest wait time we ever have had , but only due problems with manufactur who was overbusy with other important projects.

                          Most times I have all size flattne rlenses in stock

                          Markus
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Mark Rieck
                          To: tmboptical@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 9:07 PM
                          Subject: [tmboptical] Re: Field Flattener for 130/780: Was "First light with mount for 130/780


                          > Initially I have balked at the expense of a dedicated field flattener
                          > for this scope, but now would gladly pay it _IF_ I could be sure it
                          > would do the job in cleaning up the edges of the images. Also, I
                          > have been talking with one guy who has been waiting many months (I
                          > think he said a year) for the flattener for this scope.

                          Who in the heck is the dealer that ordered a FF a year ago? Teton has
                          been associated with APM for right at around a year now, and every FF
                          order has been filled in about 2-4 weeks. The only expception has been
                          those orders placed around December last year, when APM was awaiting
                          the delivery of more lenses, which arrived in February to the best of
                          my knowledge. After APM did receive new lenses, completed FF's and
                          custom adapters for 152's were delivered in 2-3 weeks, and for 130's 2-
                          3 weeks after that. Whoever you're referring to should double check
                          with their dealer to insure their order was placed in first place.
                          Something's not right.

                          I suppose the possiblity exists that FF lenses for 130's ran out before
                          late last year, but only Markus can answer that with certainty.

                          Mark





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • APM Telescopes
                          Hunter you may not believe , but the 2 pc flattner lenses , glas only , cost me same money as the complete LOMO Apo triplet lens in cell 80/480, the reason is
                          Message 12 of 24 , Mar 31, 2008
                            Hunter
                            you may not believe , but the 2 pc flattner lenses , glas only , cost me same money as the complete LOMO Apo triplet lens in cell 80/480, the reason is the flattner use LZOS glas of high quality and polish tolerance are very very tight on the flattners, also the cosmetic and the volume are very little.

                            Philipp Keller, of Astrooptik try to design soon new flattners with chinese glas, there we can get them made cheap, the expensive thing will be the testing glases we have to pay plus some money to Philipp for the design and then we need to make a testrun, in hope the chinese do what we want and use good glas.

                            this will be a future chance for us to get good and inexpensive flattners , but the chinese need to use good glas and do correct polish, so please wait

                            the flattners come to me as lenses without mechanics. Each flattner housing is a custommade job , the customer tells me what focuser and what camera and do we do the mechanics custommade for for him.

                            Flattners 105, 115, 175, 203 are in stock, flattners 130 and 152 arriving again in april, just last week we sold out our last stock here

                            if you are from USA I would prefer if you buy from our 2 dealers, yes , they have anyway better prices then i am, they undercut my prices :-)

                            thanks
                            Markus
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: hewholooks
                            To: tmboptical@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 10:46 PM
                            Subject: [tmboptical] Re: Field Flattener for 130/780: Was "First light with mount for 130/780


                            Markus,

                            I meant no insult to APM. It's just a lot of money for a flattener,
                            as you know.

                            What is current turn around time on the flattener at this time?

                            What adapters does it come with? Does it screw directly onto the 3.5"
                            tube of the focuser?

                            Do I deal with you of one of your US dealers?

                            Hunter

                            --- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, "apm_telecopes" <anfrage@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > Hi Hunter
                            >
                            > may you have a look to images made by diffrent customers using the
                            Apo 130/780 with the delicated flattner
                            >
                            > http://www.apm-telescopes.com/info_bilder.php?artikel_id=31439
                            >
                            > is that guarantee enough that our combo, designed by TMB Optical
                            works for you too ?
                            >
                            > regards
                            >
                            > Markus
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: hewholooks
                            > To: tmboptical@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 12:46 AM
                            > Subject: [tmboptical] Field Flattener for 130/780: Was "First
                            light with mount for 130/780
                            >
                            >
                            > Neil,
                            >
                            > That site provides for full size versions. Just right click on
                            the
                            > image and it can be downloaded. I hesitate to mention it however,
                            as
                            > it's pretty ugly.
                            >
                            > Initially I have balked at the expense of a dedicated field
                            flattener
                            > for this scope, but now would gladly pay it _IF_ I could be sure
                            it
                            > would do the job in cleaning up the edges of the images. Also, I
                            > have been talking with one guy who has been waiting many months
                            (I
                            > think he said a year) for the flattener for this scope.
                            >
                            > I could try the Televue 0.8 reducer/flattener, but I don't want
                            to
                            > lose any focal length.
                            >
                            > Hate to open up this bag of worms again, but now that I have some
                            > serious guiding capability, I need to solve this issue.
                            >
                            > Here's the original test image - one frame, unprocessed - to show
                            the
                            > field problems. Just right click on it to have access to full
                            size
                            > image.
                            > http://hwilson.zenfolio.com/p623834054/?photo=h1102349F#285357215
                            >
                            > Hunter
                            >
                            > Hunter
                            >
                            > --- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, Neil Fleming <neilfleming@>
                            > wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Looks pretty good, Hunter. You wouldn't have a place
                            > > to post full-sized versions, do you? That always
                            > > helps when diagnosing a problem.
                            > >
                            > > ...Neil
                            > >
                            > > --- hewholooks <hewholooks@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > > Guys,
                            > > >
                            > > > I got a new toy - the Astro-Physics Mach1GTO to
                            > > > guide the APM 130/780.
                            > > > What a difference!
                            > > >
                            > > > Here's the first light (if a mount can have first
                            > > > light) and it already
                            > > > has improved the imaging of the scope. The
                            > > > potential of the scope is
                            > > > starting to emerge. Now if I could just get a
                            > > > decicated field
                            > > > flattener and get rid of the coma around the edges.
                            > > > The AP flattener
                            > > > is OK, but it's not doing the scope justice.
                            > > >
                            > > > First 5 images (all from the same image) in this
                            > > > gallery. Don't be too
                            > > > harsh on the stars - I know they are a problem.
                            > > >
                            > > > http://hwilson.zenfolio.com/p781396937
                            > > >
                            > > > Thanks again for looking,
                            > > >
                            > > > Hunter
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > ------------------------------------
                            > > >
                            > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > www.flemingastrophotography.com
                            > > Direct from Boston - brilliant diamonds in pea soup
                            > > Also check out the astro_narrowband Yahoo group!
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >





                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • hewholooks
                            Thank you Markus, Again, no insult to your company is meant. Just pointing out that it would be beneficial to all involved if these items were more readily
                            Message 13 of 24 , Mar 31, 2008
                              Thank you Markus,

                              Again, no insult to your company is meant. Just pointing out that it
                              would be beneficial to all involved if these items were more readily
                              available - but the economics and supply are what they are, and there
                              may be nothing more to do about it.

                              Looking forward to the dedicated flattener.

                              Hunter

                              --- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, "APM Telescopes" <anfrage@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > Hunter
                              > you may not believe , but the 2 pc flattner lenses , glas only ,
                              cost me same money as the complete LOMO Apo triplet lens in cell
                              80/480, the reason is the flattner use LZOS glas of high quality and
                              polish tolerance are very very tight on the flattners, also the
                              cosmetic and the volume are very little.
                              >
                              > Philipp Keller, of Astrooptik try to design soon new flattners with
                              chinese glas, there we can get them made cheap, the expensive thing
                              will be the testing glases we have to pay plus some money to Philipp
                              for the design and then we need to make a testrun, in hope the
                              chinese do what we want and use good glas.
                              >
                              > this will be a future chance for us to get good and inexpensive
                              flattners , but the chinese need to use good glas and do correct
                              polish, so please wait
                              >
                              > the flattners come to me as lenses without mechanics. Each flattner
                              housing is a custommade job , the customer tells me what focuser and
                              what camera and do we do the mechanics custommade for for him.
                              >
                              > Flattners 105, 115, 175, 203 are in stock, flattners 130 and 152
                              arriving again in april, just last week we sold out our last stock
                              here
                              >
                              > if you are from USA I would prefer if you buy from our 2 dealers,
                              yes , they have anyway better prices then i am, they undercut my
                              prices :-)
                              >
                              > thanks
                              > Markus
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: hewholooks
                              > To: tmboptical@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 10:46 PM
                              > Subject: [tmboptical] Re: Field Flattener for 130/780: Was "First
                              light with mount for 130/780
                              >
                              >
                              > Markus,
                              >
                              > I meant no insult to APM. It's just a lot of money for a
                              flattener,
                              > as you know.
                              >
                              > What is current turn around time on the flattener at this time?
                              >
                              > What adapters does it come with? Does it screw directly onto the
                              3.5"
                              > tube of the focuser?
                              >
                              > Do I deal with you of one of your US dealers?
                              >
                              > Hunter
                              >
                              > --- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, "apm_telecopes" <anfrage@>
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Hi Hunter
                              > >
                              > > may you have a look to images made by diffrent customers using
                              the
                              > Apo 130/780 with the delicated flattner
                              > >
                              > > http://www.apm-telescopes.com/info_bilder.php?artikel_id=31439
                              > >
                              > > is that guarantee enough that our combo, designed by TMB
                              Optical
                              > works for you too ?
                              > >
                              > > regards
                              > >
                              > > Markus
                              > > ----- Original Message -----
                              > > From: hewholooks
                              > > To: tmboptical@yahoogroups.com
                              > > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 12:46 AM
                              > > Subject: [tmboptical] Field Flattener for 130/780: Was "First
                              > light with mount for 130/780
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Neil,
                              > >
                              > > That site provides for full size versions. Just right click on
                              > the
                              > > image and it can be downloaded. I hesitate to mention it
                              however,
                              > as
                              > > it's pretty ugly.
                              > >
                              > > Initially I have balked at the expense of a dedicated field
                              > flattener
                              > > for this scope, but now would gladly pay it _IF_ I could be
                              sure
                              > it
                              > > would do the job in cleaning up the edges of the images. Also,
                              I
                              > > have been talking with one guy who has been waiting many months
                              > (I
                              > > think he said a year) for the flattener for this scope.
                              > >
                              > > I could try the Televue 0.8 reducer/flattener, but I don't want
                              > to
                              > > lose any focal length.
                              > >
                              > > Hate to open up this bag of worms again, but now that I have
                              some
                              > > serious guiding capability, I need to solve this issue.
                              > >
                              > > Here's the original test image - one frame, unprocessed - to
                              show
                              > the
                              > > field problems. Just right click on it to have access to full
                              > size
                              > > image.
                              > > http://hwilson.zenfolio.com/p623834054/?
                              photo=h1102349F#285357215
                              > >
                              > > Hunter
                              > >
                              > > Hunter
                              > >
                              > > --- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, Neil Fleming <neilfleming@>
                              > > wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Looks pretty good, Hunter. You wouldn't have a place
                              > > > to post full-sized versions, do you? That always
                              > > > helps when diagnosing a problem.
                              > > >
                              > > > ...Neil
                              > > >
                              > > > --- hewholooks <hewholooks@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > > Guys,
                              > > > >
                              > > > > I got a new toy - the Astro-Physics Mach1GTO to
                              > > > > guide the APM 130/780.
                              > > > > What a difference!
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Here's the first light (if a mount can have first
                              > > > > light) and it already
                              > > > > has improved the imaging of the scope. The
                              > > > > potential of the scope is
                              > > > > starting to emerge. Now if I could just get a
                              > > > > decicated field
                              > > > > flattener and get rid of the coma around the edges.
                              > > > > The AP flattener
                              > > > > is OK, but it's not doing the scope justice.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > First 5 images (all from the same image) in this
                              > > > > gallery. Don't be too
                              > > > > harsh on the stars - I know they are a problem.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > http://hwilson.zenfolio.com/p781396937
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Thanks again for looking,
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Hunter
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > ------------------------------------
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > www.flemingastrophotography.com
                              > > > Direct from Boston - brilliant diamonds in pea soup
                              > > > Also check out the astro_narrowband Yahoo group!
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • APM Telescopes
                              Hi Hunter again we have them most time in stock, not for 1 week, or 1 month, some laying around long time, if there would be a bigger demand we would have more
                              Message 14 of 24 , Mar 31, 2008
                                Hi Hunter

                                again we have them most time in stock, not for 1 week, or 1 month, some laying around long time, if there would be a bigger demand we would have more in stock

                                regards
                                Markus

                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: hewholooks
                                To: tmboptical@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 3:09 PM
                                Subject: [tmboptical] Re: Field Flattener for 130/780: Was "First light with mount for 130/780


                                Thank you Markus,

                                Again, no insult to your company is meant. Just pointing out that it
                                would be beneficial to all involved if these items were more readily
                                available - but the economics and supply are what they are, and there
                                may be nothing more to do about it.

                                Looking forward to the dedicated flattener.

                                Hunter

                                --- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, "APM Telescopes" <anfrage@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > Hunter
                                > you may not believe , but the 2 pc flattner lenses , glas only ,
                                cost me same money as the complete LOMO Apo triplet lens in cell
                                80/480, the reason is the flattner use LZOS glas of high quality and
                                polish tolerance are very very tight on the flattners, also the
                                cosmetic and the volume are very little.
                                >
                                > Philipp Keller, of Astrooptik try to design soon new flattners with
                                chinese glas, there we can get them made cheap, the expensive thing
                                will be the testing glases we have to pay plus some money to Philipp
                                for the design and then we need to make a testrun, in hope the
                                chinese do what we want and use good glas.
                                >
                                > this will be a future chance for us to get good and inexpensive
                                flattners , but the chinese need to use good glas and do correct
                                polish, so please wait
                                >
                                > the flattners come to me as lenses without mechanics. Each flattner
                                housing is a custommade job , the customer tells me what focuser and
                                what camera and do we do the mechanics custommade for for him.
                                >
                                > Flattners 105, 115, 175, 203 are in stock, flattners 130 and 152
                                arriving again in april, just last week we sold out our last stock
                                here
                                >
                                > if you are from USA I would prefer if you buy from our 2 dealers,
                                yes , they have anyway better prices then i am, they undercut my
                                prices :-)
                                >
                                > thanks
                                > Markus
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: hewholooks
                                > To: tmboptical@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 10:46 PM
                                > Subject: [tmboptical] Re: Field Flattener for 130/780: Was "First
                                light with mount for 130/780
                                >
                                >
                                > Markus,
                                >
                                > I meant no insult to APM. It's just a lot of money for a
                                flattener,
                                > as you know.
                                >
                                > What is current turn around time on the flattener at this time?
                                >
                                > What adapters does it come with? Does it screw directly onto the
                                3.5"
                                > tube of the focuser?
                                >
                                > Do I deal with you of one of your US dealers?
                                >
                                > Hunter
                                >
                                > --- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, "apm_telecopes" <anfrage@>
                                > wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Hi Hunter
                                > >
                                > > may you have a look to images made by diffrent customers using
                                the
                                > Apo 130/780 with the delicated flattner
                                > >
                                > > http://www.apm-telescopes.com/info_bilder.php?artikel_id=31439
                                > >
                                > > is that guarantee enough that our combo, designed by TMB
                                Optical
                                > works for you too ?
                                > >
                                > > regards
                                > >
                                > > Markus
                                > > ----- Original Message -----
                                > > From: hewholooks
                                > > To: tmboptical@yahoogroups.com
                                > > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 12:46 AM
                                > > Subject: [tmboptical] Field Flattener for 130/780: Was "First
                                > light with mount for 130/780
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Neil,
                                > >
                                > > That site provides for full size versions. Just right click on
                                > the
                                > > image and it can be downloaded. I hesitate to mention it
                                however,
                                > as
                                > > it's pretty ugly.
                                > >
                                > > Initially I have balked at the expense of a dedicated field
                                > flattener
                                > > for this scope, but now would gladly pay it _IF_ I could be
                                sure
                                > it
                                > > would do the job in cleaning up the edges of the images. Also,
                                I
                                > > have been talking with one guy who has been waiting many months
                                > (I
                                > > think he said a year) for the flattener for this scope.
                                > >
                                > > I could try the Televue 0.8 reducer/flattener, but I don't want
                                > to
                                > > lose any focal length.
                                > >
                                > > Hate to open up this bag of worms again, but now that I have
                                some
                                > > serious guiding capability, I need to solve this issue.
                                > >
                                > > Here's the original test image - one frame, unprocessed - to
                                show
                                > the
                                > > field problems. Just right click on it to have access to full
                                > size
                                > > image.
                                > > http://hwilson.zenfolio.com/p623834054/?
                                photo=h1102349F#285357215
                                > >
                                > > Hunter
                                > >
                                > > Hunter
                                > >
                                > > --- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, Neil Fleming <neilfleming@>
                                > > wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Looks pretty good, Hunter. You wouldn't have a place
                                > > > to post full-sized versions, do you? That always
                                > > > helps when diagnosing a problem.
                                > > >
                                > > > ...Neil
                                > > >
                                > > > --- hewholooks <hewholooks@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > > Guys,
                                > > > >
                                > > > > I got a new toy - the Astro-Physics Mach1GTO to
                                > > > > guide the APM 130/780.
                                > > > > What a difference!
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Here's the first light (if a mount can have first
                                > > > > light) and it already
                                > > > > has improved the imaging of the scope. The
                                > > > > potential of the scope is
                                > > > > starting to emerge. Now if I could just get a
                                > > > > decicated field
                                > > > > flattener and get rid of the coma around the edges.
                                > > > > The AP flattener
                                > > > > is OK, but it's not doing the scope justice.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > First 5 images (all from the same image) in this
                                > > > > gallery. Don't be too
                                > > > > harsh on the stars - I know they are a problem.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > http://hwilson.zenfolio.com/p781396937
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Thanks again for looking,
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Hunter
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > ------------------------------------
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > www.flemingastrophotography.com
                                > > > Direct from Boston - brilliant diamonds in pea soup
                                > > > Also check out the astro_narrowband Yahoo group!
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >





                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Mark Rieck
                                Absolutely understood Hunter. My long post was not geared towards deflecting that something along the lines of a system chart would not be very helpful. It
                                Message 15 of 24 , Mar 31, 2008
                                  Absolutely understood Hunter. My long post was not geared towards
                                  deflecting that something along the lines of a 'system chart' would
                                  not be very helpful. It would, and it's certainly on my agenda to
                                  provide. The post was driven more by a generalized, and relatively
                                  modest trend I witnessed over the Winter months. Namely, it was that
                                  a few(not just Teton clients, but the astronomy community in general)
                                  seemed to be presenting their problems on various internet forums. In
                                  many of these cases, it seemed the astronomers was short on info
                                  provided and/or diagnostic procedures undertaken, but quick to
                                  condemn a telescope as the root cause. In a nutshell, if a scope is
                                  checked by itself, eliminating accys, and found to be performing as
                                  it should; it seemed to me the obvious next step in any strategy
                                  based diagnosis would be to consider the source as external to the
                                  scope.

                                  You are not seeing coma. An f/6 doublet or triplet, by their very
                                  nature will produce curvature of field(which presents itself in
                                  similar fashion). The full field flatteners, while indeed expensive,
                                  are hard to match when it comes to capabilities. Who knows when they
                                  will become commonplace, but the ability to image with such a large
                                  format gives these flatteners a deifinite edge over most others. With
                                  the change of a relatively inexpensive adapter, one can be imaging
                                  with the same FF with much larger formats than exist today. Given
                                  image array sizes seem to be hitting new plateaus on a regular basis,
                                  that gives owners of these flatteners a definite edge.

                                  The TV units by sheer coincidence, do produce excellent results with
                                  LZOS optics, but are limited in the size of illuminated field they
                                  can illuminate(which is around 24-26mm). That's great for anything up
                                  to around DSLR size. The FF series can go up to 80mm+. Finding
                                  another flattener that is both ideally matched for these optics and
                                  can boast that capability would probably be hard to do.

                                  I will continue to pursue a more comprehensive list to produce an
                                  APM 'systems chart', and have already made a first move along those
                                  lines with some inquiries earlier today. That's because I agree, even
                                  if I am not the maker, it is in everyone's best interest.

                                  Mark

                                  --- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, "hewholooks" <hewholooks@...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Mark,
                                  >
                                  > What you say certainly holds some credence, but as you know, there
                                  > are optical systems out there (Astro-Physics, Televue, and certain
                                  > Takahashi scopes) that go to great lengths to provide complete
                                  > systems of flatteners and adapters to suit the astroimager. This
                                  is
                                  > in their best interest as it makes their scopes produce remarkable
                                  > images from less than remarkable imagers.
                                  >
                                  > While the wizards of this discipline will continue to find ways,
                                  > almost magically, to flat field their optics and produce quality
                                  > images, there is no reason that optics houses cannot provide with
                                  > reasonable availability, apparatus to produce quality images with
                                  > their multi-thousand dollar telescopes that have "visual quality
                                  > curved fields". What is the sense in buying a 6K to 20K refractor
                                  > that produces coma in 25% of the field? A dedicated flattener
                                  should
                                  > be available to the consumer with a reasonable amount of effort and
                                  > expense so that these telescopes can be utilized to their full
                                  > potential.
                                  >
                                  > APM telescopes are second to none, but when I researched my
                                  purchase,
                                  > I seriously considered the Televue 127 because of it's stable of
                                  > imaging accesories.
                                  >
                                  > I'm with Wayne on some of these issues. Why did I try to use an AP
                                  > flattener? Because it was available and reasonably priced. Has it
                                  > been a success for me? Only partially, as you can see.

                                  > I am not dissatisfied with my choice of scope, much to the
                                  contrary -
                                  > I am very happy with it, I'm just trying to move towards the
                                  quality
                                  > that this scope can produce. I now have the mount. I need the
                                  flat
                                  > field.
                                  >
                                  > I have even been steered toward a Televue 0.8 reducer/flattener by
                                  an
                                  > APM dealer. I don't know if it was a quality or avalability issue,
                                  > but the full field flattener wasn't even suggested when I said I
                                  > didn't want to lose any focal length.
                                  >
                                  > Thanks for your indulgence.
                                  >
                                  > Hunter
                                • hewholooks
                                  Mark, Wonderful idea! Thanks also for clearing that up about the coma vs curvature. Sorry for throwing those terms around loosely. In the mean time, I have
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Mar 31, 2008
                                    Mark,

                                    Wonderful idea! Thanks also for clearing that up about the coma vs
                                    curvature. Sorry for throwing those terms around loosely.

                                    In the mean time, I have reprocessed my Leo Triplet image and crops
                                    and would like to share them. Great scope, great detail and colors.

                                    First 4 images here. All are cropped to a degree, so no corner
                                    peeking.

                                    http://hwilson.zenfolio.com/p781396937

                                    Hunter

                                    --- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Rieck" <derklaus@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Absolutely understood Hunter. My long post was not geared towards
                                    > deflecting that something along the lines of a 'system chart' would
                                    > not be very helpful. It would, and it's certainly on my agenda to
                                    > provide. The post was driven more by a generalized, and relatively
                                    > modest trend I witnessed over the Winter months. Namely, it was
                                    that
                                    > a few(not just Teton clients, but the astronomy community in
                                    general)
                                    > seemed to be presenting their problems on various internet forums.
                                    In
                                    > many of these cases, it seemed the astronomers was short on info
                                    > provided and/or diagnostic procedures undertaken, but quick to
                                    > condemn a telescope as the root cause. In a nutshell, if a scope is
                                    > checked by itself, eliminating accys, and found to be performing as
                                    > it should; it seemed to me the obvious next step in any strategy
                                    > based diagnosis would be to consider the source as external to the
                                    > scope.
                                    >
                                    > You are not seeing coma. An f/6 doublet or triplet, by their very
                                    > nature will produce curvature of field(which presents itself in
                                    > similar fashion). The full field flatteners, while indeed
                                    expensive,
                                    > are hard to match when it comes to capabilities. Who knows when
                                    they
                                    > will become commonplace, but the ability to image with such a large
                                    > format gives these flatteners a deifinite edge over most others.
                                    With
                                    > the change of a relatively inexpensive adapter, one can be imaging
                                    > with the same FF with much larger formats than exist today. Given
                                    > image array sizes seem to be hitting new plateaus on a regular
                                    basis,
                                    > that gives owners of these flatteners a definite edge.
                                    >
                                    > The TV units by sheer coincidence, do produce excellent results
                                    with
                                    > LZOS optics, but are limited in the size of illuminated field they
                                    > can illuminate(which is around 24-26mm). That's great for anything
                                    up
                                    > to around DSLR size. The FF series can go up to 80mm+. Finding
                                    > another flattener that is both ideally matched for these optics and
                                    > can boast that capability would probably be hard to do.
                                    >
                                    > I will continue to pursue a more comprehensive list to produce an
                                    > APM 'systems chart', and have already made a first move along those
                                    > lines with some inquiries earlier today. That's because I agree,
                                    even
                                    > if I am not the maker, it is in everyone's best interest.
                                    >
                                    > Mark
                                    >
                                    > --- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, "hewholooks" <hewholooks@>
                                    > wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Mark,
                                    > >
                                    > > What you say certainly holds some credence, but as you know,
                                    there
                                    > > are optical systems out there (Astro-Physics, Televue, and
                                    certain
                                    > > Takahashi scopes) that go to great lengths to provide complete
                                    > > systems of flatteners and adapters to suit the astroimager. This
                                    > is
                                    > > in their best interest as it makes their scopes produce
                                    remarkable
                                    > > images from less than remarkable imagers.
                                    > >
                                    > > While the wizards of this discipline will continue to find ways,
                                    > > almost magically, to flat field their optics and produce quality
                                    > > images, there is no reason that optics houses cannot provide with
                                    > > reasonable availability, apparatus to produce quality images with
                                    > > their multi-thousand dollar telescopes that have "visual quality
                                    > > curved fields". What is the sense in buying a 6K to 20K
                                    refractor
                                    > > that produces coma in 25% of the field? A dedicated flattener
                                    > should
                                    > > be available to the consumer with a reasonable amount of effort
                                    and
                                    > > expense so that these telescopes can be utilized to their full
                                    > > potential.
                                    > >
                                    > > APM telescopes are second to none, but when I researched my
                                    > purchase,
                                    > > I seriously considered the Televue 127 because of it's stable of
                                    > > imaging accesories.
                                    > >
                                    > > I'm with Wayne on some of these issues. Why did I try to use an
                                    AP
                                    > > flattener? Because it was available and reasonably priced. Has
                                    it
                                    > > been a success for me? Only partially, as you can see.
                                    >
                                    > > I am not dissatisfied with my choice of scope, much to the
                                    > contrary -
                                    > > I am very happy with it, I'm just trying to move towards the
                                    > quality
                                    > > that this scope can produce. I now have the mount. I need the
                                    > flat
                                    > > field.
                                    > >
                                    > > I have even been steered toward a Televue 0.8 reducer/flattener
                                    by
                                    > an
                                    > > APM dealer. I don't know if it was a quality or avalability
                                    issue,
                                    > > but the full field flattener wasn't even suggested when I said I
                                    > > didn't want to lose any focal length.
                                    > >
                                    > > Thanks for your indulgence.
                                    > >
                                    > > Hunter
                                    >
                                  • erdmanpe
                                    Looking at the site you reference, I see several images that I believe are mine (IC443, California, M13, Rosette, Vei, and the Virgo Cluster) --yet there is no
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Apr 1, 2008
                                      Looking at the site you reference, I see several images that I believe
                                      are mine (IC443, California, M13, Rosette, Vei, and the Virgo Cluster)
                                      --yet there is no credit given to that fact. I really don't think
                                      such behavior is appropriate.

                                      Peter

                                      --- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, "apm_telecopes" <anfrage@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hi Hunter
                                      >
                                      > may you have a look to images made by diffrent customers using the
                                      Apo 130/780 with the delicated flattner
                                      >
                                      > http://www.apm-telescopes.com/info_bilder.php?artikel_id=31439
                                      >
                                      > is that guarantee enough that our combo, designed by TMB Optical
                                      works for you too ?
                                      >
                                      > regards
                                      >
                                      > Markus
                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > From: hewholooks
                                      > To: tmboptical@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 12:46 AM
                                      > Subject: [tmboptical] Field Flattener for 130/780: Was "First
                                      light with mount for 130/780
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Neil,
                                      >
                                      > That site provides for full size versions. Just right click on the
                                      > image and it can be downloaded. I hesitate to mention it however, as
                                      > it's pretty ugly.
                                      >
                                      > Initially I have balked at the expense of a dedicated field flattener
                                      > for this scope, but now would gladly pay it _IF_ I could be sure it
                                      > would do the job in cleaning up the edges of the images. Also, I
                                      > have been talking with one guy who has been waiting many months (I
                                      > think he said a year) for the flattener for this scope.
                                      >
                                      > I could try the Televue 0.8 reducer/flattener, but I don't want to
                                      > lose any focal length.
                                      >
                                      > Hate to open up this bag of worms again, but now that I have some
                                      > serious guiding capability, I need to solve this issue.
                                      >
                                      > Here's the original test image - one frame, unprocessed - to show the
                                      > field problems. Just right click on it to have access to full size
                                      > image.
                                      > http://hwilson.zenfolio.com/p623834054/?photo=h1102349F#285357215
                                      >
                                      > Hunter
                                      >
                                      > Hunter
                                      >
                                      > --- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, Neil Fleming <neilfleming@>
                                      > wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Looks pretty good, Hunter. You wouldn't have a place
                                      > > to post full-sized versions, do you? That always
                                      > > helps when diagnosing a problem.
                                      > >
                                      > > ...Neil
                                      > >
                                      > > --- hewholooks <hewholooks@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > > Guys,
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I got a new toy - the Astro-Physics Mach1GTO to
                                      > > > guide the APM 130/780.
                                      > > > What a difference!
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Here's the first light (if a mount can have first
                                      > > > light) and it already
                                      > > > has improved the imaging of the scope. The
                                      > > > potential of the scope is
                                      > > > starting to emerge. Now if I could just get a
                                      > > > decicated field
                                      > > > flattener and get rid of the coma around the edges.
                                      > > > The AP flattener
                                      > > > is OK, but it's not doing the scope justice.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > First 5 images (all from the same image) in this
                                      > > > gallery. Don't be too
                                      > > > harsh on the stars - I know they are a problem.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > http://hwilson.zenfolio.com/p781396937
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Thanks again for looking,
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Hunter
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > ------------------------------------
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > www.flemingastrophotography.com
                                      > > Direct from Boston - brilliant diamonds in pea soup
                                      > > Also check out the astro_narrowband Yahoo group!
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                    • hewholooks
                                      Peter, If those are your images, they are in fact very nice. Could you comment on the adequacy of the APM field flattener with your scope, and what scope do
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Apr 2, 2008
                                        Peter,

                                        If those are your images, they are in fact very nice. Could you
                                        comment on the adequacy of the APM field flattener with your scope,
                                        and what scope do you use, since the images are not labeled with that
                                        information either.

                                        Hunter

                                        --- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, "erdmanpe" <erdmanpe@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Looking at the site you reference, I see several images that I
                                        believe
                                        > are mine (IC443, California, M13, Rosette, Vei, and the Virgo
                                        Cluster)
                                        > --yet there is no credit given to that fact. I really don't think
                                        > such behavior is appropriate.
                                        >
                                        > Peter
                                        >
                                        > --- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, "apm_telecopes" <anfrage@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Hi Hunter
                                        > >
                                        > > may you have a look to images made by diffrent customers using the
                                        > Apo 130/780 with the delicated flattner
                                        > >
                                        > > http://www.apm-telescopes.com/info_bilder.php?artikel_id=31439
                                        > >
                                        > > is that guarantee enough that our combo, designed by TMB Optical
                                        > works for you too ?
                                        > >
                                        > > regards
                                        > >
                                        > > Markus
                                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > > From: hewholooks
                                        > > To: tmboptical@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 12:46 AM
                                        > > Subject: [tmboptical] Field Flattener for 130/780: Was "First
                                        > light with mount for 130/780
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Neil,
                                        > >
                                        > > That site provides for full size versions. Just right click on
                                        the
                                        > > image and it can be downloaded. I hesitate to mention it
                                        however, as
                                        > > it's pretty ugly.
                                        > >
                                        > > Initially I have balked at the expense of a dedicated field
                                        flattener
                                        > > for this scope, but now would gladly pay it _IF_ I could be
                                        sure it
                                        > > would do the job in cleaning up the edges of the images. Also,
                                        I
                                        > > have been talking with one guy who has been waiting many months
                                        (I
                                        > > think he said a year) for the flattener for this scope.
                                        > >
                                        > > I could try the Televue 0.8 reducer/flattener, but I don't want
                                        to
                                        > > lose any focal length.
                                        > >
                                        > > Hate to open up this bag of worms again, but now that I have
                                        some
                                        > > serious guiding capability, I need to solve this issue.
                                        > >
                                        > > Here's the original test image - one frame, unprocessed - to
                                        show the
                                        > > field problems. Just right click on it to have access to full
                                        size
                                        > > image.
                                        > > http://hwilson.zenfolio.com/p623834054/?
                                        photo=h1102349F#285357215
                                        > >
                                        > > Hunter
                                        > >
                                        > > Hunter
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, Neil Fleming <neilfleming@>
                                        > > wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Looks pretty good, Hunter. You wouldn't have a place
                                        > > > to post full-sized versions, do you? That always
                                        > > > helps when diagnosing a problem.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > ...Neil
                                        > > >
                                        > > > --- hewholooks <hewholooks@> wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > > Guys,
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > I got a new toy - the Astro-Physics Mach1GTO to
                                        > > > > guide the APM 130/780.
                                        > > > > What a difference!
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Here's the first light (if a mount can have first
                                        > > > > light) and it already
                                        > > > > has improved the imaging of the scope. The
                                        > > > > potential of the scope is
                                        > > > > starting to emerge. Now if I could just get a
                                        > > > > decicated field
                                        > > > > flattener and get rid of the coma around the edges.
                                        > > > > The AP flattener
                                        > > > > is OK, but it's not doing the scope justice.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > First 5 images (all from the same image) in this
                                        > > > > gallery. Don't be too
                                        > > > > harsh on the stars - I know they are a problem.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > http://hwilson.zenfolio.com/p781396937
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Thanks again for looking,
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Hunter
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > ------------------------------------
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > www.flemingastrophotography.com
                                        > > > Direct from Boston - brilliant diamonds in pea soup
                                        > > > Also check out the astro_narrowband Yahoo group!
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • erdmanpe
                                        They were done with a TMB130/f6. The M13 was without a FF, but used the smallish ST10 camera, which is about the largest detector that can be used without a
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Apr 2, 2008
                                          They were done with a TMB130/f6. The M13 was without a FF, but used
                                          the "smallish" ST10 camera, which is about the largest detector that
                                          can be used without a FF. The others were with an STL11K (35mm film
                                          format) and a field flattener. It took some trouble to get the proper
                                          FF to detector distance as my FF had a Pentax 6x7 adapter that was
                                          apparently made with the wrong dimensions (a few others also had this
                                          problem reported here). Once I got the spacing correct, the field
                                          flatness was as you see, very nice. My FF does have reflection
                                          problems with bright stars, with the reflection on the opposite side
                                          of the optical axis from the source star:

                                          http://www.buytelescopes.com/gallery/photos/3978.jpg

                                          I understand that this has been fixed in later versions. It took me
                                          so long to track down and cure the spacing problem before I discovered
                                          the reflection problem that I was told (by Mr. Back) that my warranty
                                          had expired and I would have to buy a new one. I have not done so yet.

                                          Peter

                                          --- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, "hewholooks" <hewholooks@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Peter,
                                          >
                                          > If those are your images, they are in fact very nice. Could you
                                          > comment on the adequacy of the APM field flattener with your scope,
                                          > and what scope do you use, since the images are not labeled with that
                                          > information either.
                                          >
                                          > Hunter
                                          >
                                          > --- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, "erdmanpe" <erdmanpe@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Looking at the site you reference, I see several images that I
                                          > believe
                                          > > are mine (IC443, California, M13, Rosette, Vei, and the Virgo
                                          > Cluster)
                                          > > --yet there is no credit given to that fact. I really don't think
                                          > > such behavior is appropriate.
                                          > >
                                          > > Peter
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, "apm_telecopes" <anfrage@> wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Hi Hunter
                                          > > >
                                          > > > may you have a look to images made by diffrent customers using the
                                          > > Apo 130/780 with the delicated flattner
                                          > > >
                                          > > > http://www.apm-telescopes.com/info_bilder.php?artikel_id=31439
                                          > > >
                                          > > > is that guarantee enough that our combo, designed by TMB Optical
                                          > > works for you too ?
                                          > > >
                                          > > > regards
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Markus
                                          > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > > > From: hewholooks
                                          > > > To: tmboptical@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 12:46 AM
                                          > > > Subject: [tmboptical] Field Flattener for 130/780: Was "First
                                          > > light with mount for 130/780
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Neil,
                                          > > >
                                          > > > That site provides for full size versions. Just right click on
                                          > the
                                          > > > image and it can be downloaded. I hesitate to mention it
                                          > however, as
                                          > > > it's pretty ugly.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Initially I have balked at the expense of a dedicated field
                                          > flattener
                                          > > > for this scope, but now would gladly pay it _IF_ I could be
                                          > sure it
                                          > > > would do the job in cleaning up the edges of the images. Also,
                                          > I
                                          > > > have been talking with one guy who has been waiting many months
                                          > (I
                                          > > > think he said a year) for the flattener for this scope.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > I could try the Televue 0.8 reducer/flattener, but I don't want
                                          > to
                                          > > > lose any focal length.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Hate to open up this bag of worms again, but now that I have
                                          > some
                                          > > > serious guiding capability, I need to solve this issue.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Here's the original test image - one frame, unprocessed - to
                                          > show the
                                          > > > field problems. Just right click on it to have access to full
                                          > size
                                          > > > image.
                                          > > > http://hwilson.zenfolio.com/p623834054/?
                                          > photo=h1102349F#285357215
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Hunter
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Hunter
                                          > > >
                                          > > > --- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, Neil Fleming <neilfleming@>
                                          > > > wrote:
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Looks pretty good, Hunter. You wouldn't have a place
                                          > > > > to post full-sized versions, do you? That always
                                          > > > > helps when diagnosing a problem.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > ...Neil
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > --- hewholooks <hewholooks@> wrote:
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > > Guys,
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > I got a new toy - the Astro-Physics Mach1GTO to
                                          > > > > > guide the APM 130/780.
                                          > > > > > What a difference!
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > Here's the first light (if a mount can have first
                                          > > > > > light) and it already
                                          > > > > > has improved the imaging of the scope. The
                                          > > > > > potential of the scope is
                                          > > > > > starting to emerge. Now if I could just get a
                                          > > > > > decicated field
                                          > > > > > flattener and get rid of the coma around the edges.
                                          > > > > > The AP flattener
                                          > > > > > is OK, but it's not doing the scope justice.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > First 5 images (all from the same image) in this
                                          > > > > > gallery. Don't be too
                                          > > > > > harsh on the stars - I know they are a problem.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > http://hwilson.zenfolio.com/p781396937
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > Thanks again for looking,
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > Hunter
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > ------------------------------------
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > www.flemingastrophotography.com
                                          > > > > Direct from Boston - brilliant diamonds in pea soup
                                          > > > > Also check out the astro_narrowband Yahoo group!
                                          > > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                        • hewholooks
                                          Ouch! One of these is expensive enough - TWO? I hope that the reflection issue has been corrected, as you say. It would not be a happy day to see those
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Apr 2, 2008
                                            Ouch!

                                            One of these is expensive enough - TWO?

                                            I hope that the reflection issue has been corrected, as you say. It
                                            would not be a happy day to see those reflections on a new field
                                            flattener.

                                            So even though a problem with the mis-constructed adapter caused the
                                            delay in detecting the reflectioin problem, the warranty was still
                                            void?

                                            Hunter

                                            --- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, "erdmanpe" <erdmanpe@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > They were done with a TMB130/f6. The M13 was without a FF, but used
                                            > the "smallish" ST10 camera, which is about the largest detector that
                                            > can be used without a FF. The others were with an STL11K (35mm film
                                            > format) and a field flattener. It took some trouble to get the
                                            proper
                                            > FF to detector distance as my FF had a Pentax 6x7 adapter that was
                                            > apparently made with the wrong dimensions (a few others also had
                                            this
                                            > problem reported here). Once I got the spacing correct, the field
                                            > flatness was as you see, very nice. My FF does have reflection
                                            > problems with bright stars, with the reflection on the opposite side
                                            > of the optical axis from the source star:
                                            >
                                            > http://www.buytelescopes.com/gallery/photos/3978.jpg
                                            >
                                            > I understand that this has been fixed in later versions. It took me
                                            > so long to track down and cure the spacing problem before I
                                            discovered
                                            > the reflection problem that I was told (by Mr. Back) that my
                                            warranty
                                            > had expired and I would have to buy a new one. I have not done so
                                            yet.
                                            >
                                            > Peter
                                            >
                                            > --- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, "hewholooks" <hewholooks@> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > Peter,
                                            > >
                                            > > If those are your images, they are in fact very nice. Could you
                                            > > comment on the adequacy of the APM field flattener with your
                                            scope,
                                            > > and what scope do you use, since the images are not labeled with
                                            that
                                            > > information either.
                                            > >
                                            > > Hunter
                                            > >
                                            > > --- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, "erdmanpe" <erdmanpe@> wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Looking at the site you reference, I see several images that I
                                            > > believe
                                            > > > are mine (IC443, California, M13, Rosette, Vei, and the Virgo
                                            > > Cluster)
                                            > > > --yet there is no credit given to that fact. I really don't
                                            think
                                            > > > such behavior is appropriate.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Peter
                                            > > >
                                            > > > --- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, "apm_telecopes" <anfrage@>
                                            wrote:
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Hi Hunter
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > may you have a look to images made by diffrent customers
                                            using the
                                            > > > Apo 130/780 with the delicated flattner
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > http://www.apm-telescopes.com/info_bilder.php?artikel_id=31439
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > is that guarantee enough that our combo, designed by TMB
                                            Optical
                                            > > > works for you too ?
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > regards
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Markus
                                            > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                            > > > > From: hewholooks
                                            > > > > To: tmboptical@yahoogroups.com
                                            > > > > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 12:46 AM
                                            > > > > Subject: [tmboptical] Field Flattener for 130/780:
                                            Was "First
                                            > > > light with mount for 130/780
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Neil,
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > That site provides for full size versions. Just right click
                                            on
                                            > > the
                                            > > > > image and it can be downloaded. I hesitate to mention it
                                            > > however, as
                                            > > > > it's pretty ugly.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Initially I have balked at the expense of a dedicated field
                                            > > flattener
                                            > > > > for this scope, but now would gladly pay it _IF_ I could be
                                            > > sure it
                                            > > > > would do the job in cleaning up the edges of the images.
                                            Also,
                                            > > I
                                            > > > > have been talking with one guy who has been waiting many
                                            months
                                            > > (I
                                            > > > > think he said a year) for the flattener for this scope.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > I could try the Televue 0.8 reducer/flattener, but I don't
                                            want
                                            > > to
                                            > > > > lose any focal length.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Hate to open up this bag of worms again, but now that I
                                            have
                                            > > some
                                            > > > > serious guiding capability, I need to solve this issue.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Here's the original test image - one frame, unprocessed -
                                            to
                                            > > show the
                                            > > > > field problems. Just right click on it to have access to
                                            full
                                            > > size
                                            > > > > image.
                                            > > > > http://hwilson.zenfolio.com/p623834054/?
                                            > > photo=h1102349F#285357215
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Hunter
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Hunter
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > --- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, Neil Fleming
                                            <neilfleming@>
                                            > > > > wrote:
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > Looks pretty good, Hunter. You wouldn't have a place
                                            > > > > > to post full-sized versions, do you? That always
                                            > > > > > helps when diagnosing a problem.
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > ...Neil
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > --- hewholooks <hewholooks@> wrote:
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > Guys,
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > I got a new toy - the Astro-Physics Mach1GTO to
                                            > > > > > > guide the APM 130/780.
                                            > > > > > > What a difference!
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > Here's the first light (if a mount can have first
                                            > > > > > > light) and it already
                                            > > > > > > has improved the imaging of the scope. The
                                            > > > > > > potential of the scope is
                                            > > > > > > starting to emerge. Now if I could just get a
                                            > > > > > > decicated field
                                            > > > > > > flattener and get rid of the coma around the edges.
                                            > > > > > > The AP flattener
                                            > > > > > > is OK, but it's not doing the scope justice.
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > First 5 images (all from the same image) in this
                                            > > > > > > gallery. Don't be too
                                            > > > > > > harsh on the stars - I know they are a problem.
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > http://hwilson.zenfolio.com/p781396937
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > Thanks again for looking,
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > Hunter
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > ------------------------------------
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > www.flemingastrophotography.com
                                            > > > > > Direct from Boston - brilliant diamonds in pea soup
                                            > > > > > Also check out the astro_narrowband Yahoo group!
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            > > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                          • dave_snope
                                            I ve had no reflection problems with my flattener, purchased 15 months ago. I m using it with APM s adaptor for the STL11K.
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Apr 2, 2008
                                              I've had no reflection problems with my flattener, purchased 15 months
                                              ago. I'm using it with APM's adaptor for the STL11K.
                                            • dave_snope
                                              Here is a photo that I took last night with the field flattener and the SV130 F6, which is the same optics as the TMB 130/780. This is a full-frame shot with
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Apr 5, 2008
                                                Here is a photo that I took last night with the field flattener and the
                                                SV130 F6, which is the same optics as the TMB 130/780. This is a
                                                full-frame shot with a STL11K behind the flattener from APM. There
                                                might be enough stars here to judge the field flatness.

                                                http://snope.homestead.com/files/astro/SnakeNebula-PS50pct.jpg
                                                <http://snope.homestead.com/files/astro/SnakeNebula-PS50pct.jpg>



                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • hewholooks
                                                Yea Dave, _maybe_. Smart a##! ;-) It is a beautiful image - congratulations and thanks for sharing it so I could see the corners. Hunter ... the
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Apr 6, 2008
                                                  Yea Dave, _maybe_.

                                                  Smart a##! ;-)

                                                  It is a beautiful image - congratulations and thanks for sharing it
                                                  so I could see the corners.

                                                  Hunter

                                                  --- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, "dave_snope" <dlsnope@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Here is a photo that I took last night with the field flattener and
                                                  the
                                                  > SV130 F6, which is the same optics as the TMB 130/780. This is a
                                                  > full-frame shot with a STL11K behind the flattener from APM. There
                                                  > might be enough stars here to judge the field flatness.
                                                  >
                                                  > http://snope.homestead.com/files/astro/SnakeNebula-PS50pct.jpg
                                                  > <http://snope.homestead.com/files/astro/SnakeNebula-PS50pct.jpg>
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  >
                                                • Terry Tuggle
                                                  Dave, Nice job on the image and the flattener! Looks like you are ready to go! Nice work, Terry _____ From: tmboptical@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Apr 6, 2008
                                                    Dave,

                                                    Nice job on the image and the flattener! Looks like you are ready to
                                                    go!

                                                    Nice work,

                                                    Terry



                                                    _____

                                                    From: tmboptical@yahoogroups.com [mailto:tmboptical@yahoogroups.com] On
                                                    Behalf Of dave_snope
                                                    Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 1:14 AM
                                                    To: tmboptical@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Subject: [tmboptical] Re: Field Flattener for 130/780: Was "First light with
                                                    mount for 130/780




                                                    Here is a photo that I took last night with the field flattener and the
                                                    SV130 F6, which is the same optics as the TMB 130/780. This is a
                                                    full-frame shot with a STL11K behind the flattener from APM. There
                                                    might be enough stars here to judge the field flatness.

                                                    http://snope.
                                                    <http://snope.homestead.com/files/astro/SnakeNebula-PS50pct.jpg>
                                                    homestead.com/files/astro/SnakeNebula-PS50pct.jpg
                                                    <http://snope.
                                                    <http://snope.homestead.com/files/astro/SnakeNebula-PS50pct.jpg>
                                                    homestead.com/files/astro/SnakeNebula-PS50pct.jpg>

                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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