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RE: Missing The Boat by a WIDE Margin

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  • Wayne G
    Ron, Terry, I suspect this is an eyepiece that will take a little time in order to get used to, and to train the eye in how to use properly. Not for
    Message 1 of 25 , May 3, 2007
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      Ron, Terry,

      I suspect this is an eyepiece that will take a little time in order to
      get used to, and to "train" the eye in how to use properly. Not for
      everyone for sure, but definitely a new dimension in observing. People
      had the same reservations about Naglers when they first came out, as
      with the Collins I3Pieces. I'll let you know.

      WayneG


      Hey Wayne,


      TeleVue presented this at NEAF and it is a very pecular
      eyepiece to look into. There is so much field you have to let your
      eye relax and let your peripheral vision take the rest of the
      eyepiece in. My feeling was if you just look into the eyepiece and
      focus at the center the field stop gets in the way but, if you relax
      and try to allow your peripheral vision take over you can use all the
      field. For me it was just too much field to be able to enjoy
      observing it was almost down right distractive. I suppose if you were
      looking at a very wide field cluster or nebula it may have some
      application but, I found that to actually observe certain areas in
      the outer periphery you had to roll your eye around the eyepiece to
      work within the field stop it had. I don't think I would buy one I
      didn't find it a particularly comfortable eyepiece to use.



      Best Regards, Ron S



      Wayne, Ron,

      I once had a 12.5mm Doctor eyepiece which has the 90 degree AFOV; I
      felt the same about what Ron said. You just cannot take the entire view in
      at once. When you attempt to use your peripheral vision the center of the
      image was not in focus; it was just too wide a field. I think the 84 degree
      AFOV is the comfortable limit to look at the entire field. Al Nagler himself
      said the Naglers were capable of 88 degree AFOV, but they were limited 84
      because of this fact.



      Terry
    • Tube Tim
      ... Hi Wayne, Big boats do need a wide margin, especially when river flows north like the Mon . It will be interesting to read your report, I look forward to
      Message 2 of 25 , May 3, 2007
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        >--- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, Wayne G <fomalhaut@...> wrote:
        >

        Hi Wayne,

        Big boats do need a wide margin, especially when river
        flows north like "the Mon".

        It will be interesting to read your report, I look forward to it.

        Can a pair be BV'ed? Any idea of pricing?

        I see uncle Al will be at RTMC here in left coast, but I can't make that.


        Tim

        > Ron, Terry,
        >
        > I suspect this is an eyepiece that will take a little time in order to
        > get used to, and to "train" the eye in how to use properly. Not for
        > everyone for sure, but definitely a new dimension in observing. People
        > had the same reservations about Naglers when they first came out, as
        > with the Collins I3Pieces. I'll let you know.
        >
        > WayneG
        >
      • gnowellsct
        Most everyone here will already know, but it bears repeating, that the limits still apply. My f/6.5 refractor will still be limited to 4.25 degrees of true
        Message 3 of 25 , May 4, 2007
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          Most everyone here will already know, but it bears repeating, that the
          limits still apply. My f/6.5 refractor will still be limited to 4.25
          degrees of true unvignetted field, and my C14 will still be limited to
          .73 degrees of same.

          So the question about the 100 degree eyepiece really comes down to
          paying at the margin for more fov than some of us have already chosen
          to have. Example: I have the complete XW series, could have afforded
          just as many of the Naglers. And in fact I do have the NT4 17mm.

          The NT4 17mm offers a wider true field of view than the Ethos 13mm 100
          degree eyepiece. The 17mm NT4 and the XW20 have identical fields of
          view.

          While it is true that the sky blackness effect is improved at higher
          magnification, the question is somewhat like asking how close you want
          to sit to the screen in a theater. It is possible to move up so close
          that you can't take the whole thing in, but I've occasionally sat
          first row and sometimes I enjoy the "immersion." But usually I go
          back one or two dozen rows.

          I don't see myself dumping my XWs just yet, it is likely that the 100
          degree eyepieces will accentuate the effect that made me choose XWs
          over the Naglers.

          I don't know what the design limits are in terms of bulk, one has to
          think that the N31mm is so big because there is a need for it. The
          longest fl you can go in 100 degree format would be 28mm, so that's a
          big step up from the 40mm to get the same fov in an XW40mm in terms of
          diminishing the "gray sky effect." I'll be interested in seeing how
          that works out.

          regards
          Greg N




          --- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, "Tube Tim" <potentate@...> wrote:
          >
          > >--- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, Wayne G <fomalhaut@> wrote:
          > >
          >
          > Hi Wayne,
          >
          > Big boats do need a wide margin, especially when river
          > flows north like "the Mon".
          >
          > It will be interesting to read your report, I look forward to it.
          >
          > Can a pair be BV'ed? Any idea of pricing?
          >
          > I see uncle Al will be at RTMC here in left coast, but I can't make
          that.
          >
          >
          > Tim
          >
          > > Ron, Terry,
          > >
          > > I suspect this is an eyepiece that will take a little time in
          order to
          > > get used to, and to "train" the eye in how to use properly. Not for
          > > everyone for sure, but definitely a new dimension in observing.
          People
          > > had the same reservations about Naglers when they first came out, as
          > > with the Collins I3Pieces. I'll let you know.
          > >
          > > WayneG
          > >
          >
        • Mark
          I looked through the ethos at NEAF - Al Nagler gave me a dirty look and asked if I work for TMB because I was wearing one of my TMB shirts. The Ethos may turn
          Message 4 of 25 , May 4, 2007
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            I looked through the ethos at NEAF - Al Nagler gave me a dirty look
            and asked if I work for TMB because I was wearing one of my TMB shirts.

            The Ethos may turn out to be a winner, and perhaps it just takes some
            time to get used to it, but I found the eye relief a little tight, and
            I ended up scanning the field to see the edges - I couldn't really
            take in the whole field at once.

            And there's more to an eyepiece than field of view.

            Any eyepiece design will involve trade offs, and while I'd be happy to
            see a new design that was really a practical advance in the state of
            the art, I'm not going to get excited about this one until some
            seasoned level headed observers post night time observing reports.

            I know some people love the warm tint TeleVue eyepieces typically
            have, but I don't. If I want a warm tint, I'll use a filter. I find
            pincushion distortion annoying. I'll also be interested in hearing
            how it does for light scatter, transmission and contrast compared to
            other eyepieces.

            Back in 1960, Zeiss announced an eyepiece design with a 120 degree
            afov - it was called a "Koehler". While I've read about it, if it
            went into production they must not have made many because I haven't
            been able to find any for sale, or any photos of them.

            My guess is the trade offs to get up to 120 degrees were too great.
            Hopefully 100 degrees will work - I imagine it would be popular with
            people who don't own tracking mounts.

            In any event, if the Ethos shows there is demand for an incredibly
            wide field eyepiece, I imagine Thomas and others will bring them to
            market.
          • tdavis011
            ... shirts. ... Mark, Don t feel bad. I got asked the same question concerning both TMB and Burgess (I was there helping Burgess and wearing a Burgess
            Message 5 of 25 , May 4, 2007
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              --- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <msholdenct@...> wrote:
              >
              > I looked through the ethos at NEAF - Al Nagler gave me a dirty look
              > and asked if I work for TMB because I was wearing one of my TMB
              shirts.
              >

              Mark,

              Don't feel bad. I got asked the same question concerning both TMB and
              Burgess (I was there helping Burgess and wearing a Burgess exhibitor
              badge). The market is so competitive at this point, with overall
              interest in astronomy dropping, and as a result sales, that it should
              not be surprising there are concerns over other vendors. The tension
              is definitely getting higher amongst those that depend on this hobby
              for a living. I'm just glad I'm not one of them. I would not read
              too much into it. I've been friends with Al for years, and I got
              asked the question. And for the record, I don't work for either
              TMB or Burgess.

              I got a look through the Ethos myself, and it was a very interesting
              experience. Sort of like looking behind yourself. I asked about the
              eye relief, and Al told me 15mm. It gives the impression of being
              less, because the field is so large. You just feel too close to the
              eyepiece, because all you can see is the field of view, while designs
              with smaller apparent fields allow you to see outside the field with
              what we would consider sufficient eye relief. When I realised that
              I never had my eyelashes touch the eyepiece when I took in the whole
              field, I then understood what was happening. It was the huge field
              of view creating an optical (no pun intended) illusion.

              What will be telling is this eyepiece at night under the stars. I
              wish Al well with it.

              Thanks, Tom Davis
            • Mark
              ... Actually I got a chuckle out of it. ... I keep hearing interest in astronomy is dwindling, but when my astronomical society holds an open house, we get
              Message 6 of 25 , May 4, 2007
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                --- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, "tdavis011" <tdavis011@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > Don't feel bad. I got asked the same question concerning both TMB and
                > Burgess (I was there helping Burgess and wearing a Burgess exhibitor
                > badge).

                Actually I got a chuckle out of it.

                >The market is so competitive at this point, with overall
                > interest in astronomy dropping, and as a result sales, that it should
                > not be surprising there are concerns over other vendors. The tension
                > is definitely getting higher amongst those that depend on this hobby
                > for a living. I'm just glad I'm not one of them. I would not read
                > too much into it. I've been friends with Al for years, and I got
                > asked the question. And for the record, I don't work for either
                > TMB or Burgess.
                >

                I keep hearing interest in astronomy is dwindling, but when my
                astronomical society holds an open house, we get bigger crowds than we
                did 25 years ago. And our membership is growing.

                I think it's more likely the pinch some companies are feeling comes
                from increased competition.

                It's certainly a very good time to buy if you like great optics.


                > I got a look through the Ethos myself, and it was a very interesting
                > experience. Sort of like looking behind yourself. I asked about the
                > eye relief, and Al told me 15mm. It gives the impression of being
                > less, because the field is so large. You just feel too close to the
                > eyepiece, because all you can see is the field of view, while designs
                > with smaller apparent fields allow you to see outside the field with
                > what we would consider sufficient eye relief. When I realised that
                > I never had my eyelashes touch the eyepiece when I took in the whole
                > field, I then understood what was happening. It was the huge field
                > of view creating an optical (no pun intended) illusion.
                >

                That might be, and I'll certainly check for it when I get an
                opportunity to look through one at night.

                > What will be telling is this eyepiece at night under the stars. I
                > wish Al well with it.
                >

                I agree.

                > Thanks, Tom Davis
                >
              • gnowellsct
                The population of the U.S. has approximately doubled since the 1960s. If the market is smaller relative to then, it would have to be that the proportionate
                Message 7 of 25 , May 4, 2007
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                  The population of the U.S. has approximately doubled since the 1960s.
                  If the market is smaller relative to then, it would have to be that
                  the proportionate interest has fallen by over 50%. If it had fallen
                  only by 50%, the overall demand would be the same.

                  Actually it would be greater because there has been some income growth.

                  Personally I believe that the energy shock is slowing astronomy, ski
                  resorts, and many other sectors, including sales at Wal Mart's (so I
                  read in the WSJ). There's less disposable income. I spend $2400 a
                  year on gasoline (wife and myself) now compared to $1200 several years
                  ago and that has to come from somewhere. And we have relatively fuel
                  efficient cars. As it happens we're doing OK, but many people have
                  less of a cushion.

                  The high end demographic that buys from AP, TEC, and TMB is less
                  affected. I would think that the lower end equipment makers would
                  feel the pinch worse (just like Wal Mart). So really I think the
                  biggest hit would be to the vendors of Star Blasts and such. However,
                  in the case of TMB, the $4k 130mm is probably going to take a bigger
                  hit than the demand for the 9 inch instruments. Because people have
                  to have a pretty big cushion to buy a $20k apo and they won't feel the
                  energy costs as much.

                  regards
                  Greg N


                  --- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <msholdenct@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, "tdavis011" <tdavis011@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Don't feel bad. I got asked the same question concerning both TMB and
                  > > Burgess (I was there helping Burgess and wearing a Burgess exhibitor
                  > > badge).
                  >
                  > Actually I got a chuckle out of it.
                  >
                  > >The market is so competitive at this point, with overall
                  > > interest in astronomy dropping, and as a result sales, that it should
                  > > not be surprising there are concerns over other vendors. The tension
                  > > is definitely getting higher amongst those that depend on this hobby
                  > > for a living. I'm just glad I'm not one of them. I would not read
                  > > too much into it. I've been friends with Al for years, and I got
                  > > asked the question. And for the record, I don't work for either
                  > > TMB or Burgess.
                  > >
                  >
                  > I keep hearing interest in astronomy is dwindling, but when my
                  > astronomical society holds an open house, we get bigger crowds than we
                  > did 25 years ago. And our membership is growing.
                  >
                  > I think it's more likely the pinch some companies are feeling comes
                  > from increased competition.
                  >
                  > It's certainly a very good time to buy if you like great optics.
                  >
                  >
                  > > I got a look through the Ethos myself, and it was a very interesting
                  > > experience. Sort of like looking behind yourself. I asked about the
                  > > eye relief, and Al told me 15mm. It gives the impression of being
                  > > less, because the field is so large. You just feel too close to the
                  > > eyepiece, because all you can see is the field of view, while designs
                  > > with smaller apparent fields allow you to see outside the field with
                  > > what we would consider sufficient eye relief. When I realised that
                  > > I never had my eyelashes touch the eyepiece when I took in the whole
                  > > field, I then understood what was happening. It was the huge field
                  > > of view creating an optical (no pun intended) illusion.
                  > >
                  >
                  > That might be, and I'll certainly check for it when I get an
                  > opportunity to look through one at night.
                  >
                  > > What will be telling is this eyepiece at night under the stars. I
                  > > wish Al well with it.
                  > >
                  >
                  > I agree.
                  >
                  > > Thanks, Tom Davis
                  > >
                  >
                • David
                  ... Or in contrary, those who lusted for the $8k scope realize that they can get the same value for half less and have $$$ left for the gas for the dark sky
                  Message 8 of 25 , May 4, 2007
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                    --- gnowellsct <tim71pos@...> wrote:

                    ...However,
                    > in the case of TMB, the $4k 130mm is probably going
                    > to take a bigger
                    > hit than the demand for the 9 inch instruments.
                    > Because people have
                    > to have a pretty big cushion to buy a $20k apo and
                    > they won't feel the
                    > energy costs as much.


                    Or in contrary, those who lusted for the $8k scope
                    realize that they can get the same value for half less
                    and have $$$ left for the gas for the dark sky ride.

                    David

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                  • gnowellsct
                    My comments addressed the 9-inch which I think is priced higher than $8k. I m speaking about demand for all products as a function of the economy and
                    Message 9 of 25 , May 4, 2007
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                      My comments addressed the 9-inch which I think is priced higher than
                      $8k. I'm speaking about demand for all products as a function of the
                      economy and disposable income and not performance issues as such.
                      Once you get into this value vs. that value, the Vixen 5" fast
                      Newtonian (which would easily ride on a GEM) offers an unbeatable
                      dollar to performance value--unless we factor in we just plain like
                      refractors sometimes. I almost bought one of those 5" Vixens and
                      stopped myself because I OWN a five inch refractor. regards Greg N

                      --- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, David <Moravianus@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > --- gnowellsct <tim71pos@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > ...However,
                      > > in the case of TMB, the $4k 130mm is probably going
                      > > to take a bigger
                      > > hit than the demand for the 9 inch instruments.
                      > > Because people have
                      > > to have a pretty big cushion to buy a $20k apo and
                      > > they won't feel the
                      > > energy costs as much.
                      >
                      >
                      > Or in contrary, those who lusted for the $8k scope
                      > realize that they can get the same value for half less
                      > and have $$$ left for the gas for the dark sky ride.
                      >
                      > David
                      >
                      > __________________________________________________
                      > Do You Yahoo!?
                      > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                      > http://mail.yahoo.com
                      >
                    • Wayne G
                      ... WG: Hi Timothy, I ve heard the figure of $500 bandied around. BV? I doubt it. First, it is as big as many big 2-inch eyepieces, and second, even the
                      Message 10 of 25 , May 4, 2007
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                        >
                        > Hi Wayne,
                        >
                        > Can a pair be BV'ed? Any idea of pricing?
                        >

                        WG: Hi Timothy, I've heard the figure of $500 bandied around. BV? I
                        doubt it. First, it is as big as many big 2-inch eyepieces, and
                        second, even the tiny T6 Naglers, essentially MADE for BVing, do poorly
                        at that. The eye lens and relief are just too little, and when you look
                        in a pair, all you see is about a 60* AFOV. You can't look through a
                        pair and see the stop AND keep both eyes on axis. To look to the side
                        of a 100* AFOV ocular, you would have to remove your second eye from the
                        optimal position as well. My guess is that with 100*, you won't need or
                        be worried about "stereo." :-)

                        WayneG
                      • Wayne G
                        ... WG: Thanks Tom for hitting it on the head. While many people are offering their opinions, with various degrees of bias towards and against TeleVue
                        Message 11 of 25 , May 4, 2007
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                          tdavis011 wrote:
                          > What will be telling is this eyepiece at night under the stars. I
                          > wish Al well with it.
                          >

                          WG: Thanks Tom for hitting it on the head. While many people are
                          offering their opinions, with various degrees of bias towards and
                          against TeleVue products and UWA eyepieces, none of it matters a bit.
                          What matters is the experience using the Ethos under a dark sky while
                          viewing a variety of objects. A peek through it at NEAF matters not.
                          What someone else writes about it on Cloudy Nights matter not (unless
                          you are just a follower of others, I prefer to be a leader and do my own
                          explorations on my own).

                          If I buy one, it isn't to "replace" anything, but rather to be involved
                          in having a new type of eyepiece technology, that the world hasn't seen
                          before. While others have produced a very few UWA eyepieces of this
                          width, that was long ago. This is new, cutting edge technology. And I
                          suspect, it will depend on how well your vision can accommodate such an
                          eyepiece.

                          Don't you think Al used this thing at length under dark skies and saw
                          something in it, rather than just a gimmick? Would he invest the huge
                          capital to bring this to market if he didn't think it as breaking new
                          ground?

                          TV patriot? I think not. On another group, I was just accused of being
                          a TV basher and a Tom Back supporter, just for liking Supermonos.

                          As I said somewhere else, this hobby is ruled largely by lots of people
                          of blind egos, and ignorance over the very equipment they own.

                          WayneG
                        • Tube Tim
                          ... Hi Wayne, $500 is a bit steep. After reading about Mark s experience with Al, I ve scratched this vendor off my list - permanently with no right of appeal.
                          Message 12 of 25 , May 4, 2007
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                            >--- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, Wayne G <fomalhaut@...> wrote:
                            >

                            Hi Wayne,

                            $500 is a bit steep.

                            After reading about Mark's experience with Al, I've scratched this
                            vendor off my list - permanently with no right of appeal.

                            ___
                            Tim

                            > >
                            > > Hi Wayne,
                            > >
                            > > Can a pair be BV'ed? Any idea of pricing?
                            > >
                            >
                            > WG: Hi Timothy, I've heard the figure of $500 bandied around. BV? I
                            > doubt it. First, it is as big as many big 2-inch eyepieces, and
                            > second, even the tiny T6 Naglers, essentially MADE for BVing, do poorly
                            > at that. The eye lens and relief are just too little, and when you
                            look
                            > in a pair, all you see is about a 60* AFOV. You can't look through a
                            > pair and see the stop AND keep both eyes on axis. To look to the side
                            > of a 100* AFOV ocular, you would have to remove your second eye from
                            the
                            > optimal position as well. My guess is that with 100*, you won't
                            need or
                            > be worried about "stereo." :-)
                            >
                            > WayneG
                            >
                          • Louis Marchesi
                            ... Ouch, $500 would be too much; I figured it would be priced in the T6 range ~300 or maybe a bit higher. ... I m not trying to be confrontational here, but
                            Message 13 of 25 , May 5, 2007
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                              --- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, "Tube Tim" <potentate@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > >--- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, Wayne G <fomalhaut@> wrote:
                              > >
                              >
                              > Hi Wayne,
                              >
                              > $500 is a bit steep.
                              >

                              Ouch, $500 would be too much; I figured it would be priced in the 'T6'
                              range ~300 or maybe a bit higher.

                              > After reading about Mark's experience with Al, I've scratched this
                              > vendor off my list - permanently with no right of appeal.
                              >

                              I'm not trying to be confrontational here, but I didn't see in Mark's
                              post anything that made me not want to buy TV products. I interpreted
                              his question to Tom and Mark as a logical question someone might ask
                              when showing a new product to a competitor.

                              But then, what do I know, I write software for a living. I could be
                              wrong. Probably am :-)

                              Regards,
                              Louis Marchesi
                            • tdavis011
                              Louis, I took it that way as well. I ve known Al for a number of years, and I didn t take it as a personal attack. When I walked by the TV booth later in the
                              Message 14 of 25 , May 5, 2007
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                                Louis,

                                I took it that way as well. I've known Al for a number of years, and
                                I didn't take it as a personal attack. When I walked by the TV
                                booth later in the day, Al waved hello to me. Not an issue to me.
                                It would not stop me from buying from TeleVue.

                                Thanks, Tom Davis

                                --- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, "Louis Marchesi" <lmarchesi@...>
                                wrote:

                                > --- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, "Tube Tim" <potentate@> wrote:
                                >
                                > I'm not trying to be confrontational here, but I didn't see in
                                Mark's
                                > post anything that made me not want to buy TV products. I
                                interpreted
                                > his question to Tom and Mark as a logical question someone might
                                ask
                                > when showing a new product to a competitor.
                                >
                                > But then, what do I know, I write software for a living. I could be
                                > wrong. Probably am :-)
                                >
                                > Regards,
                                > Louis Marchesi
                                >
                              • gnowellsct
                                I have to say, regarding Al s impoliteness to someone who might have been a competitor, that you have to take incidents such as these and divide them by the
                                Message 15 of 25 , May 5, 2007
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                                  I have to say, regarding Al's impoliteness to someone who might have
                                  been a competitor, that you have to take incidents such as these and
                                  divide them by the thousands of transactions TV does a year. I'm not a
                                  HUGE consumer of TV products, only a few eyepieces, but I think they
                                  represent one of the industry leaders for good reason.

                                  I did call TV and got Big Al himself when I had a question about my
                                  FS128. I said the optics needed cleaning and collimation and that I
                                  was only an hour from TV and if they would do it I was willing to
                                  drive it in and pay and if not I would ship it to TNR. He was very
                                  polite in declining.

                                  I called TV because I saw that AP has on its web site that they will
                                  look at optics for a hefty fee, about $350, but I thought it was worth
                                  looking into. So I figured that someone who knew optics could handle
                                  the adjustable cell, cleaning, and collimation.

                                  regards
                                  Greg N

                                  --- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, Wayne G <fomalhaut@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > tdavis011 wrote:
                                  > > What will be telling is this eyepiece at night under the stars. I
                                  > > wish Al well with it.
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > WG: Thanks Tom for hitting it on the head. While many people are
                                  > offering their opinions, with various degrees of bias towards and
                                  > against TeleVue products and UWA eyepieces, none of it matters a bit.
                                  > What matters is the experience using the Ethos under a dark sky while
                                  > viewing a variety of objects. A peek through it at NEAF matters not.
                                  > What someone else writes about it on Cloudy Nights matter not (unless
                                  > you are just a follower of others, I prefer to be a leader and do my
                                  own
                                  > explorations on my own).
                                  >
                                  > If I buy one, it isn't to "replace" anything, but rather to be involved
                                  > in having a new type of eyepiece technology, that the world hasn't seen
                                  > before. While others have produced a very few UWA eyepieces of this
                                  > width, that was long ago. This is new, cutting edge technology. And I
                                  > suspect, it will depend on how well your vision can accommodate such an
                                  > eyepiece.
                                  >
                                  > Don't you think Al used this thing at length under dark skies and saw
                                  > something in it, rather than just a gimmick? Would he invest the huge
                                  > capital to bring this to market if he didn't think it as breaking new
                                  > ground?
                                  >
                                  > TV patriot? I think not. On another group, I was just accused of
                                  being
                                  > a TV basher and a Tom Back supporter, just for liking Supermonos.
                                  >
                                  > As I said somewhere else, this hobby is ruled largely by lots of people
                                  > of blind egos, and ignorance over the very equipment they own.
                                  >
                                  > WayneG
                                  >
                                • erdmanpe
                                  While idle speculation about a non-existent product from another manufacturer is frequently entertaining, it is not productive. Neither is whether someone in
                                  Message 16 of 25 , May 5, 2007
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                                    While idle speculation about a non-existent product from another
                                    manufacturer is frequently entertaining, it is not productive. Neither
                                    is whether someone in fact "nodded" favorably, or not. I suggest we
                                    return to TMB related products, and facts.

                                    Peter



                                    --- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, "gnowellsct" <tim71pos@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I have to say, regarding Al's impoliteness to someone who might have
                                    > been a competitor, that you have to take incidents such as these and
                                    > divide them by the thousands of transactions TV does a year. I'm not a
                                    > HUGE consumer of TV products, only a few eyepieces, but I think they
                                    > represent one of the industry leaders for good reason.
                                    >
                                    > I did call TV and got Big Al himself when I had a question about my
                                    > FS128. I said the optics needed cleaning and collimation and that I
                                    > was only an hour from TV and if they would do it I was willing to
                                    > drive it in and pay and if not I would ship it to TNR. He was very
                                    > polite in declining.
                                    >
                                    > I called TV because I saw that AP has on its web site that they will
                                    > look at optics for a hefty fee, about $350, but I thought it was worth
                                    > looking into. So I figured that someone who knew optics could handle
                                    > the adjustable cell, cleaning, and collimation.
                                    >
                                    > regards
                                    > Greg N
                                    >
                                    > --- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, Wayne G <fomalhaut@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > tdavis011 wrote:
                                    > > > What will be telling is this eyepiece at night under the stars. I
                                    > > > wish Al well with it.
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > > WG: Thanks Tom for hitting it on the head. While many people are
                                    > > offering their opinions, with various degrees of bias towards and
                                    > > against TeleVue products and UWA eyepieces, none of it matters a
                                    bit.
                                    > > What matters is the experience using the Ethos under a dark sky while
                                    > > viewing a variety of objects. A peek through it at NEAF matters
                                    not.
                                    > > What someone else writes about it on Cloudy Nights matter not (unless
                                    > > you are just a follower of others, I prefer to be a leader and do my
                                    > own
                                    > > explorations on my own).
                                    > >
                                    > > If I buy one, it isn't to "replace" anything, but rather to be
                                    involved
                                    > > in having a new type of eyepiece technology, that the world hasn't
                                    seen
                                    > > before. While others have produced a very few UWA eyepieces of this
                                    > > width, that was long ago. This is new, cutting edge technology.
                                    And I
                                    > > suspect, it will depend on how well your vision can accommodate
                                    such an
                                    > > eyepiece.
                                    > >
                                    > > Don't you think Al used this thing at length under dark skies and saw
                                    > > something in it, rather than just a gimmick? Would he invest the
                                    huge
                                    > > capital to bring this to market if he didn't think it as breaking new
                                    > > ground?
                                    > >
                                    > > TV patriot? I think not. On another group, I was just accused of
                                    > being
                                    > > a TV basher and a Tom Back supporter, just for liking Supermonos.
                                    > >
                                    > > As I said somewhere else, this hobby is ruled largely by lots of
                                    people
                                    > > of blind egos, and ignorance over the very equipment they own.
                                    > >
                                    > > WayneG
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • Tube Tim
                                    ... Perhaps, but there is no reason for the t scope market to be like this. Competitors do not need to act this way to one another. An example comes to mind;
                                    Message 17 of 25 , May 5, 2007
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                                      >--- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, "gnowellsct" <tim71pos@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I have to say, regarding Al's impoliteness to someone who might have
                                      > been a competitor, that you have to take incidents such as these

                                      > <snip>

                                      Perhaps, but there is no reason for the t'scope market to be like
                                      this. Competitors do not need to act this way to one another. An
                                      example comes to mind; several years ago Markus was at WSP and forgot
                                      something (a weight or battery or something) and Roland (AP) was
                                      nearby and loaned Markus what he needed and had a replacement sent
                                      from AP land overnight. That was a first class act by Roland.


                                      Tim
                                    • Tube Tim
                                      ... No, you re one of the good guys Louis and I respect you. ... I really don t want to connect all the dots. I ll simply say I would have respected any
                                      Message 18 of 25 , May 5, 2007
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                                        >--- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, "Louis Marchesi" <lmarchesi@...
                                        > wrote:
                                        >
                                        > I'm not trying to be confrontational here,

                                        No, you're one of the good guys Louis and I respect you.

                                        > but I didn't see in Mark's
                                        > post anything that made me not want to buy TV products.

                                        I really don't want to connect all the dots. I'll simply say I would
                                        have respected any competitor more if (s)he had asked how Thomas was
                                        doing.

                                        > I interpreted his question to Tom and Mark as a logical question
                                        > someone might ask when showing a new product to a competitor.

                                        I would think it okay for a competitor to check out the competition
                                        but I asked my wife and she said no.


                                        > But then, what do I know, I write software for a living. I could be
                                        > wrong. Probably am :-)

                                        Just a matter of opinion / perspective really, no right or wrong.

                                        Best,

                                        Tim

                                        >
                                        > Regards,
                                        > Louis Marchesi
                                        >
                                      • Mike Siniscalchi
                                        At the NEAIC last week, I was looking at Al s OTA and focusers and asked if it would fit a TMB130 OTA. Al asked me why did you buy a TMB ? I told him that the
                                        Message 19 of 25 , May 5, 2007
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                                          At the NEAIC last week, I was looking at Al's OTA and focusers and
                                          asked if it would fit a TMB130 OTA. Al asked me "why did you buy a
                                          TMB"? I told him that the OTA fit into my budget and I got an excellent
                                          value for the money. When I told him how much, or little I should say I
                                          paid for it, he actually made a face which kind of took me back with
                                          surprise. Personally, I think the days of high priced dealer arrogance
                                          is limited....just like Harley Davidson dealers learned in the recent
                                          years with their take it or leave it attitude.

                                          Mike Siniscalchi

                                          http://www.helixgate.net


                                          --- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, "Tube Tim" <potentate@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > >--- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, "gnowellsct" <tim71pos@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > I have to say, regarding Al's impoliteness to someone who might have
                                          > > been a competitor, that you have to take incidents such as these
                                          >
                                          > > <snip>
                                          >
                                          > Perhaps, but there is no reason for the t'scope market to be like
                                          > this. Competitors do not need to act this way to one another. An
                                          > example comes to mind; several years ago Markus was at WSP and forgot
                                          > something (a weight or battery or something) and Roland (AP) was
                                          > nearby and loaned Markus what he needed and had a replacement sent
                                          > from AP land overnight. That was a first class act by Roland.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Tim
                                          >
                                        • gnowellsct
                                          If you re in the market for a good fast refractor the TMB 130 f/7 is a major competitor but actually if you look at the TV line it s not a direct competitor,
                                          Message 20 of 25 , May 6, 2007
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                                            If you're in the market for a good fast refractor the TMB 130 f/7 is a
                                            major competitor but actually if you look at the TV line it's not a
                                            direct competitor, once you get into the nitty details as many
                                            advanced imagers are. The very pricey NP127 is a Petzval with the
                                            whole flat field thing they got going there and the the NP101 also
                                            offers that to imagers. The 102s are priced much lower at $2.5k so
                                            it's not quite right to say at the TMB 130 price one gets 5 inches
                                            instead of TV's 4. Some folks would rather drop the $4k and have a
                                            Petzval. It appears to be the case that some folks would drop an
                                            extra $600 to have a TV brass tube which is a nice markup item that
                                            has no optical function, just folks who got the cash and want to be a
                                            bit more showy.

                                            So I dunno, seems like there's a defined market segment for
                                            Televue--more direct competition for the NP127 from the Pentax 125
                                            than from the TMB 130, in other words. So TV vs. TMB is not as
                                            toe-to-toe as against certain other product lines. Some folks would
                                            rather drop the inch of aperture and get the Petzval at the price.

                                            But any way you look at it the market is more competitive than ten
                                            years ago.

                                            Institutional stability is something some folks might pay more for
                                            too. Some companies in the astro business are fairly well established
                                            with an institutional mechanism in place to insure corporate
                                            governance and new design teams "over the course of decades."
                                            Others--some of the best--are one man shops. U.S. astronomy has had a
                                            number of famous one man shops in previous years some of which have
                                            disappeared: Cave, Optical Craftsmen, most recently Portaball in the
                                            Newtonian world. I'm not going to get into naming refractor companies
                                            but all you have to do is think about it in other lines to get the
                                            point: some of the software programs--including one I use--are one-man
                                            shops, ATS and Particle Wave piers are one man shops, Losmandy is a
                                            one-man shop, and that's just mounts and tripods. In some cases a
                                            one-man shop is one guy who does the work, in others there are
                                            employees, but it's not clear that the whole thing could keep going
                                            without the central character. You have a problem with a Titan Scott
                                            Losmandy is the guy who takes a look at it. Chris Houghton at
                                            Astrometrics has a fine aftermarket go-to system product but is in a
                                            "production lull" because he's getting commercial contracts for his
                                            systems. So it need not be the advance of age that closes a one-man
                                            shop. Optical Craftsmen left the biz in teh 1970s to get into defense
                                            contracting optics. That is, sometimes there are other opportunities
                                            that pay better.

                                            So, in sum, there seems to me room for TV and TMB, but, it is also
                                            true, the market is more competitive than it was in Al's "formative
                                            years." And of course gasoline prices aren't helping in the
                                            disposable income front.

                                            regards
                                            Greg N








                                            --- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Siniscalchi" <helixgate@...>
                                            wrote:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > At the NEAIC last week, I was looking at Al's OTA and focusers and
                                            > asked if it would fit a TMB130 OTA. Al asked me "why did you buy a
                                            > TMB"? I told him that the OTA fit into my budget and I got an excellent
                                            > value for the money. When I told him how much, or little I should say I
                                            > paid for it, he actually made a face which kind of took me back with
                                            > surprise. Personally, I think the days of high priced dealer arrogance
                                            > is limited....just like Harley Davidson dealers learned in the recent
                                            > years with their take it or leave it attitude.
                                            >
                                            > Mike Siniscalchi
                                            >
                                            > http://www.helixgate.net
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > --- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, "Tube Tim" <potentate@> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > >--- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, "gnowellsct" <tim71pos@> wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > I have to say, regarding Al's impoliteness to someone who might have
                                            > > > been a competitor, that you have to take incidents such as these
                                            > >
                                            > > > <snip>
                                            > >
                                            > > Perhaps, but there is no reason for the t'scope market to be like
                                            > > this. Competitors do not need to act this way to one another. An
                                            > > example comes to mind; several years ago Markus was at WSP and forgot
                                            > > something (a weight or battery or something) and Roland (AP) was
                                            > > nearby and loaned Markus what he needed and had a replacement sent
                                            > > from AP land overnight. That was a first class act by Roland.
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > Tim
                                            > >
                                            >
                                          • Wayne G
                                            ... WG: Then I guess, Greg, I should have bought a Titan. I bought a $7K mount from Losmandy in 2000 and when I found it was machined wrong, instead of
                                            Message 21 of 25 , May 6, 2007
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                                              gnowellsct wrote:
                                              > You have a problem with a Titan Scott
                                              > Losmandy is the guy who takes a look at it.
                                              WG: Then I guess, Greg, I should have bought a Titan. I bought a $7K
                                              mount from Losmandy in 2000 and when I found it was machined wrong,
                                              instead of wanting it sent back, Scott suggested that after a few
                                              hundred assemblies and disassemblies, the mating surfaces should wear
                                              in. In the mean time (the first 25 years of use) just continue beating
                                              it apart with a sledgehammer.

                                              Fortunately I do my own machining and am able to make most things right.

                                              WayneG
                                            • gnowellsct
                                              I didn t say THAT. regards Greg N
                                              Message 22 of 25 , May 7, 2007
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                                                I didn't say THAT. regards Greg N

                                                --- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, Wayne G <fomalhaut@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > gnowellsct wrote:
                                                > > You have a problem with a Titan Scott
                                                > > Losmandy is the guy who takes a look at it.
                                                > WG: Then I guess, Greg, I should have bought a Titan.
                                                > Fortunately I do my own machining and am able to make most things right.
                                                >
                                                > WayneG
                                                >
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