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Re: APOLOGY FOR MISIDENTIFICATIONS

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  • Bob Brawn
    ... tommack7882 wrote: Former members? Have they been banned? Cheers, Tom Mack ... I would certainly hope so. Bob Brawn Riverside, CA
    Message 1 of 65 , Jan 2, 2004
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      --- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com,
      "tommack7882" <tommack@p...> wrote:
      Former members? Have they been banned?
      Cheers,
      Tom Mack

      -------------------------------------
      I would certainly hope so.

      Bob Brawn
      Riverside, CA
    • Bob Anderson
      Wayne, Paul I agree with Michael. Let s let this thread die now. You both are very intelligent and knowledgable individuals. Your wasting your valuable time,
      Message 65 of 65 , Jan 5, 2004
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        Wayne, Paul

        I agree with Michael.

        Let's let this thread die now. You both are very intelligent and
        knowledgable individuals. Your wasting your valuable time, and
        substantial experiance on this issue.

        Please let it die.

        Bob Anderson, Toronto, Canada.

        --- In tmboptical@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Downing" <michael@s...>
        wrote:
        > Wayne they are pulling you back in again.
        > You stated you were not going to respond to any more of these
        messages, it
        > is exactly what they want.
        >
        > Michael Downing
        > <http://www.astroden.com> www.astroden.com
        >
        > _____
        >
        > From: W. Gondella [mailto:strehl985@c...]
        > Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 6:17 PM
        > To: tmboptical@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [tmboptical] Re: SPL's
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "Paul Gustafson" <laservet@c...>
        > To: <tmboptical@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 11:32 AM
        > Subject: [tmboptical] Re: SPL's
        >
        >
        > > This group has a
        > > reputation bordering on the sycophant, and dissenting opinions are
        > > not well tolerated here.
        >
        > WG: Baloney, Paul. I'm sorry you feel that way. But it is
        interesting
        > that while
        > claiming that it is a diversity of opinions that makes a group
        great, the
        > very point of
        > both you and Mr. Bauer here was to slam me for expressing mine.
        What a
        > strange position
        > to be in.
        >
        > > I look forward to the introduction of new high
        > > quality eyepieces, and will be especially interested in
        comparative
        > > reviews of the TMB SM's and the AP SPL's by those I respect as
        > > relatively unbiased.
        >
        > WG: Yes, I am a bit disappointed that no one has offered any first
        opinions
        > on the SPL's
        > yet. To my knowledge, no one has ever given a visual report of
        looking
        > through them at a
        > telescopic object yet. If there has been, I would appreciate being
        pointed
        > in its
        > direction.
        >
        > > My opinion -- Wayne's post (# 12905) to which Mr. Wong replied is
        by
        > > any reasonable account inflammatory, inaccurate and biased. His
        > > personal dislike of Valery is clearly evident, and he has made no
        > > attempt in the past to disguise his rather arrogant disdain for
        non-
        > > TMB equipment . . .
        >
        > WG: Again, Paul, that is not an accurate account of what happened
        or was
        > said at all. A
        > lot of people don't like Valery, HOWEVER, I have voluntarily
        appologized in
        > private for my
        > earlier remarks, if for no other reason than because Valery cannot
        be here
        > to defend
        > himself. But now it seems that Valery indeed sneeks around here in
        > disguises as well,
        > which should be of no surprise. But, I shall not mention him again
        after
        > this post, it is
        > just free advertising. And please do not think that you or anyone
        else is
        > any less
        > fettered with personal opinions. We all have them. Some people
        are just
        > more politically
        > correct about voicing them. That doesn't improve or detract from
        their
        > ability to
        > honestly discriminate a star test or a piece of glass. And to be
        > enthusiastic (when
        > justified) doesn't make anyone a Rah-Rah person. It makes them
        > enthusiastic.
        >
        > I have also appologized in private for some of the flavor of a few
        of my
        > recent posts---
        > these have been extraordinarily difficult emotional times for me in
        the past
        > few months
        > for personal reasons, and I fear perhaps this has effectively
        darkened my
        > outlook on life
        > in general. But that is no excuse I am making. So I formally
        appologize to
        > the whole
        > group here, for any comments by me which were deemed inappropriate
        or
        > offensive to any,
        > because that was never my intention in making them. But offend,
        and offend
        > only has
        > seemingly been the sole intentions of a few others.
        >
        > But disdain for non-TMB equipment Paul? Bull-loney. I have all
        kinds of
        > non-TMB
        > equipment, and I have the highest respect for the quality of A-P
        products as
        > I have said
        > many, many times--- I know, I own several pieces. Why is it
        disdain to you
        > if I find one
        > or two things I wish were different? And to the rest of your
        statements,
        > you have
        > overlooked the fact that any name calling, etc., which was metted
        out by me
        > (two words)
        > was only done so *after* the other person made it clear and
        persistent that
        > their aim was
        > continued personal attack beyond any reason. All "roasting" as you
        put it
        > was done by
        > Glenn, not I, Paul. Take your arguments to him.
        >
        > > What is a bit disquieting was the group members "piling on." Even
        > > the moderator participated, painting dissenters as a "very, very
        few
        > > sick individuals who seek to "infiltrate" various commercially-
        > > oriented Astronomical Lists so as to "promote" their twisted
        version
        > > of the ideology/superiority of their chosen Astronomical products
        > > manufacturer at the expense of all others by disrupting and
        > > attacking their chosen's competitors products and reputations on
        > > those competitors own Lists." It was apparently easier to believe
        > > that the dissenters were actually one individual posting as others
        > > than to believe that others shared Mr. Wong's opinions.
        >
        > WG: Paul, I did not see any piling on, and I certainly don't share
        your
        > perception. All
        > the piling seems to be coming from others, outside. But as far as
        people
        > "infiltrating"
        > groups under false pretenses, I think Norm has made that obvious
        who is
        > doing that.
        >
        > > For those who feel Wayne's post was as benign as he claimed and
        Mr.
        > > Wong's were just mean-spirited, try the following mental exercise.
        > > Let's put the shoe on the other foot . . . (greatly shortened)
        >
        > WG: Right away Paul, here you go again with the personal attacks
        against
        > me. Why? What
        > have I done to you? Valery said many, many things against me and
        about me
        > (and Thomas
        > Back and TMB designs and on and on), so naturally, I do not care
        for him.
        > That's my right
        > to feel that way, and I've been honest about it. The two people
        you refer
        > to (and defend)
        > did the very same thing Valery did--- they came in here and rather
        than
        > refute with any
        > facts, they just went off with nothing more than salacious comments
        aimed
        > right at my and
        > other's groins, when I never had a harsh word for either of them
        previously
        > in my entire
        > life. So you see, Paul and others, put yourself in my shoes, for
        if the
        > shoe was on YOUR
        > foot, you would do the same in defending yourself.
        >
        > As to the rest of your discourse, Paul, you are not voicing an
        opinion, you
        > are just
        > trying to unload sour grapes or soggy pants, as others would say,
        for
        > troubles-sake, I
        > think. And you even try to use some of my own words in mock and
        out of
        > context. I think
        > the tmb-group is far more accomodating than you would have us
        believe.
        >
        > It's not a crime to like A-P stuff, or TMB stuff, preferentially
        over
        > another brand, is
        > it? Many or most people here have an equal love of both, not to
        mention
        > many other fine
        > companies. But all the intolerance, personal attacks, etc., you
        speak of,
        > seems to be
        > coming mainly from your side of the fence.
        >
        > I've seen many people be overtly gracious and accomodating here
        over the
        > months and years,
        > both towards other companies and individuals with specific and
        pointed POVs.
        > That
        > would include both Thomas when he still had time and interest to
        respond,
        > and numerous
        > other people here like Norm, Jim, PaulB and Larry who frequent this
        group
        > and others,
        > including apug. I've gone out on a limb a few times where I knew
        I'd get
        > disagreement or
        > at least discussion and controversy--- but I have admitted being
        wrong at
        > times, and have
        > even appologized when appropriate. I just don't see that same
        > fair-mindedness coming from
        > you, Mr. Wong or Mr. Bauer.
        >
        > And before you too accuse me of slamming Roland, A-P or the apug,
        or put
        > more words into
        > my mouth, know that I feel that Roland is a supremely talented
        individual
        > who makes
        > fantastic products, and the apug has in it many of the most
        knowledgable and
        > talented
        > observers and imagers that I have ever seen. I always give credit
        where
        > credit is due.
        > But I hardly think coming here and attacking anyone is something
        that Roland
        > and most
        > others on apug would condone. I wouldn't even care about that
        group, Paul,
        > if it wasn't
        > for my attention being brought to a few people there already making
        bad
        > remarks against
        > TMB in the first place. Think about that Paul. Then relax and
        enjoy your
        > telescope.
        >
        > WayneG
        >
        >
        >
        > _____
        >
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