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How to 'circumvent' 28 USC 2201(a)?

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  • realjethro
    Hello all - We are attempting to determine how to get around the ban against declaratory judgments regarding federal income tax, found in 28 USC 2201(a).
    Message 1 of 6 , Jul 2, 2005
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      Hello all - We are attempting to determine how to get around the "ban" against declaratory
      judgments regarding federal income tax, found in 28 USC 2201(a).
      http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/ts_search.pl?title=28&sec=2201 The pertinent
      part reads:

      (a) In a case of actual controversy within its jurisdiction,
      except with respect to Federal taxes other than actions brought
      under section 7428 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 [...]
      any court of
      the United States, upon the filing of an appropriate pleading, may
      declare the rights and other legal relations of any interested
      party seeking such declaration, whether or not further relief is or
      could be sought. Any such declaration shall have the force and
      effect of a final judgment or decree and shall be reviewable as
      such.

      So, it appears as though "frontal assaults" regarding Federal tax declaratory judgments are
      not allowed (is that constitutional?), but perhaps another way? How can one declare one's
      status and activities as not subject to Federal taxation jurisdiction in light of 28 USC
      2201(a)? Is there another or better way to accomplish the end sought?
    • pd
      realjethro -- Below is the statute refered to in its entirety. When you put the in pertinent part designation you left out the applicability of the statute.
      Message 2 of 6 , Jul 2, 2005
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        realjethro -- Below is the statute refered to in its entirety.  When you put the "in pertinent part" designation you left out the applicability of the statute.  One must always determine the totality of any statute to determine its application.  (Please take notice of the highlighted areas of the statute.) Once this is achieved, one may then take the "in pertinent part" into consideration.   Please notice the heading of Section 2201 ---- Creation Of Remedy.  When one takes the heading of this and reads the "in pertinent part" it is beyond me how you came up with the "ban against declaratory judgments" part of your question.  The section allows anyone or any entity to "upon filing the proper pleading" to seek a declaratory judgment.  A declaratory judgment is used to declare the status and the rights of the parties to an action --- unless I am mistaken about the use of the declaratory judgment.  Once a declaratory judgment is entered, it sets the status, jurisdiction and other legal features of the parties into the record so there is always a common area of reference.  Besides, the last sentence in paragraph (a) Any such declaration shall have the force and effect of a final judgment or decree and shall be reviewable as such.  ----  Does this sentence not state that the declaratory judgment is open to review?
             
        As such, I cannot discern where your objection to this statute comes from, in the event it is even applicable to you.  Please enlighten me because I don't ever want to misuse or misunderstand the use of an relevant statute.  pd
        _________________________________________________________________________
         
        Section 2201. Creation of remedy
              (a) In a case of actual controversy within its jurisdiction,
            except with respect to Federal taxes other than actions brought
            under section 7428 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, a
            proceeding under section 505 or 1146 of title 11, or in any civil
            action involving an antidumping or countervailing duty proceeding
            regarding a class or kind of merchandise of a free trade area
            country (as defined in section 516A(f)(10) of the Tariff Act of
            1930), as determined by the administering authority, any court of
            the United States, upon the filing of an appropriate pleading, may
            declare the rights and other legal relations of any interested
            party seeking such declaration, whether or not further relief is or
            could be sought.  Any such declaration shall have the force and
            effect of a final judgment or decree and shall be reviewable as
            such.
              (b) For limitations on actions brought with respect to drug
            patents see section 505 or 512 of the Federal Food, Drug, and
            Cosmetic Act.
        
        ________________________________________________________________________

        realjethro <realjethro@...> wrote:
        Hello all - We are attempting to determine how to get around the "ban" against declaratory
        judgments regarding federal income tax, found in 28 USC 2201(a). 
        http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/ts_search.pl?title=28&sec=2201 The pertinent
        part reads:

              (a) In a case of actual controversy within its jurisdiction,
            except with respect to Federal taxes other than actions brought
            under section 7428 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 [...]
            any court of
            the United States, upon the filing of an appropriate pleading, may
            declare the rights and other legal relations of any interested
            party seeking such declaration, whether or not further relief is or
            could be sought.  Any such declaration shall have the force and
            effect of a final judgment or decree and shall be reviewable as
            such.

        So, it appears as though "frontal assaults" regarding Federal tax declaratory judgments are
        not allowed (is that constitutional?), but perhaps another way?  How can one declare one's
        status and activities as not subject to Federal taxation jurisdiction in light of 28 USC
        2201(a)?  Is there another or better way to accomplish the end sought?




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      • paradoxmagnus
        ... all - We are attempting to determine how to get around the ban against declaratory judgments regarding federal income tax, found in 28 USC 2201(a).
        Message 3 of 6 , Jul 2, 2005
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          --- In tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com, "realjethro" <realjethro@y...> wrote: Hello
          all - We are attempting to determine how to get around the "ban" against declaratory
          judgments regarding federal income tax, found in 28 USC 2201(a).
          http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/ts_search.pl? title=28&sec=2201 The pertinent
          part reads:

          (a) In a case of actual controversy within its jurisdiction, except with respect to
          Federal taxes other than actions brought under section 7428 of the Internal Revenue
          Code of 1986 [...] any court of the United States, upon the filing of an appropriate
          pleading, may declare the rights and other legal relations of any interested party
          seeking such declaration, whether or not further relief is or could be sought. Any such
          declaration shall have the force and effect of a final judgment or decree and shall be
          reviewable as such.

          So, it appears as though "frontal assaults" regarding Federal tax declaratory judgments
          are not allowed (is that constitutional?), but perhaps another way? How can one
          declare one's status and activities as not subject to Federal taxation jurisdiction in light
          of 28 USC 2201(a)? Is there another or better way to accomplish the end sought?
        • paradoxmagnus
          Maybe you should ask the IRS the right questions, demand a YES or NO answer, demand that they identify the ORIGINAL STATUTE that created any such LIABILITY and
          Message 4 of 6 , Jul 2, 2005
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            Maybe you should ask the IRS the right questions, demand a YES or NO
            answer, demand that they identify the ORIGINAL STATUTE that created
            any such LIABILITY and let them know that silence activates estoppel
            per Carmine v. Bowen and that Silence is a fraud, where there is a
            legal or moral duty to speak, or where an inquiry left unanswered
            would be intentionally misleading per U.S. v. Tweel.

            Of course the person answering these questions may decide to invoke
            their 5th Amendment rights which will activate ESTOPPEL.

            And of course this coorespondance would be EVIDENCE to PROVE things,
            wouldn't it?

            Patrick in California

            "In order to convince the masses, You must tell a greater lie as no
            one will believe a lesser."- Adolph Hitler



            --- In tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com, "realjethro"
            <realjethro@y...> wrote:
            > Hello all - We are attempting to determine how to get around
            the "ban" against declaratory
            > judgments regarding federal income tax, found in 28 USC 2201(a).
            > http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/ts_search.pl?
            title=28&sec=2201 The pertinent
            > part reads:
            >
            > (a) In a case of actual controversy within its jurisdiction,
            > except with respect to Federal taxes other than actions brought
            > under section 7428 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 [...]
            > any court of
            > the United States, upon the filing of an appropriate pleading,
            may
          • realjethro
            Paradox: Thank you. Yes, those are certainly some of the right questions to ask. Question is, how do get to the point where you may ask those questions? And
            Message 5 of 6 , Jul 2, 2005
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              Paradox:

              Thank you. Yes, those are certainly some of the right questions to ask. Question is, how
              do get to the point where you may ask those questions? And more importantly, how do
              you get into position to ask those questions by going on *offense*? (A much better
              position to be in than defense). Declaratory judgments seem to be the way to go, but
              since they're "banned" by §2201 (with respect to Federal taxes), one's hands seem to be
              tied.

              Might §2201 be challenged on constitutional grounds? §2201 seems repugnant to the
              very foundation of the Republic.

              --- In tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com, "paradoxmagnus" <paradoxmagnus@e...>
              wrote:
              > Maybe you should ask the IRS the right questions, demand a YES or NO
              > answer, demand that they identify the ORIGINAL STATUTE that created
            • drbradb1
              ... right to petition the govt. Brad ... judgments are ... declare one s ... USC
              Message 6 of 6 , Jul 3, 2005
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                ---You will lose using "code".Petition the court under your 1st amendment protected
                right to petition the govt.
                Brad
                > part reads:
                >
                > (a) In a case of actual controversy within its jurisdiction,
                > except with respect to Federal taxes other than actions brought
                > under section 7428 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 [...]
                > any court of
                > the United States, upon the filing of an appropriate pleading, may
                > declare the rights and other legal relations of any interested
                > party seeking such declaration, whether or not further relief is or
                > could be sought. Any such declaration shall have the force and
                > effect of a final judgment or decree and shall be reviewable as
                > such.
                >
                > So, it appears as though "frontal assaults" regarding Federal tax declaratory
                judgments are
                > not allowed (is that constitutional?), but perhaps another way? How can one
                declare one's
                > status and activities as not subject to Federal taxation jurisdiction in light of 28
                USC
                > 2201(a)? Is there another or better way to accomplish the end sought?
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