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State says have to have SSN to work

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  • Libertarian Lines
    Trying to provide help to someone in a precarious situation. The state (NH in this case) has said you must have an SSN to work. It s all tied in to
    Message 1 of 14 , May 29 3:26 PM
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      Trying to provide help to someone in a precarious situation. The state (NH
      in this case) has said you must have an SSN to work. It's all tied in to
      unemployment taxes, checking for welfare fraud, immigration status, etc
      etc etc. That if an employre does not provide a number for an employee or
      independent contractor they will be fined.

      Pointing out the likely violation of Art 1 Sec 10 (obligations of
      contracts) was ignored. As well as an offer of affadavit that no
      violations or obligations existed.

      The agency said NH is a "wage reporting state" which means just what it
      sounds like.

      Now, the SSA has stated that you don't need an SSN to work. So obviously
      there's some contradiction here. The state and quoted federal law says
      give them a number, with no exemptions listed. Legal research by the
      company and people involved hasn't turn up a clear citation to clear up
      the matter.

      Does anyone here know what court case or law to quote that will remedy
      this situation?

      Thanks.


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    • paradoxmagnus
      The following section originally was part of the Privacy Act but was not codified; it may be found at § 552a (note). Sec. 7(a) (1) It shall be unlawful for
      Message 2 of 14 , May 29 7:34 PM
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        The following section originally was part of the Privacy Act but was
        not codified; it may be found at § 552a (note).

        Sec. 7(a) (1) It shall be unlawful for any Federal, State or local
        government agency to deny to any individual any right, benefit, or
        privilege provided by law because of such individual's refusal to
        disclose his social security account number.

        (2) the provisions of paragraph (1) of this subsection shall not
        apply with respect to--

        (A) any disclosure which is required by Federal statute, or

        (B) any disclosure of a social security number to any Federal,
        State, or local agency maintaining a system of records in existence
        and operating before January 1, 1975, if such disclosure was
        required under statute or regulation adopted prior to such date to
        verify the identity of an individual.

        (b) Any Federal, State or local government agency which requests an
        individual to disclose his social security account number shall
        inform that individual whether that disclosure is mandatory or
        voluntary, by what statutory or other authority such number is
        solicited, and what uses will be made of it.

        The following sections originally were part of P.L. 100-503, the
        Computer Matching and Privacy Protection Act of 1988; they may be
        found at § 552a (note).

        Sec. 6 Functions of the Director of the Office of Management and
        Budget.

        (b) Implementation Guidance for Amendments -- The Director shall,
        pursuant to section 552a(v) of Title 5, United States Code, develop
        guidelines and regulations for the use of agencies in implementing
        the amendments made by this Act not later than 8 months after the
        date of enactment of this Act.

        Sec. 9 Rules of Construction.

        Nothing in the amendments made by this Act shall be construed to
        authorize--

        (1) the establishment or maintenance by any agency of a national
        data bank that combines, merges, or links information on individuals
        maintained in systems of records by other Federal agencies;

        (2) the direct linking of computerized systems of records maintained
        by Federal agencies;

        (3) the computer matching of records not otherwise authorized by
        law; or

        (4) the disclosure of records for computer matching except to a
        Federal, State, or local agency.

        Sec. 10 Effective Dates.

        (a) In Genera l -- Except as provided in subsection (b), the
        amendments made by this Act shall take effect 9 months after the
        date of enactment of this Act.

        (b) Exceptions -- The amendment made by sections 3(b) [Notice of
        Matching Programs -- Report to Congress and the Office of Management
        and Budget], 6 [Functions of the Director of the Office of
        Management and Budget], 7 [Compilation of Rules and Notices], and 8
        [Annual Report] of this Act shall take effect upon enactment.

        http://www.usdoj.gov/04foia/privstat.htm

        Hope this helps.

        Patrick in California

        "America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and
        lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." --
        Abraham Lincoln



        --- In tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com, Libertarian Lines
        <liblines@y...> wrote:
        > Trying to provide help to someone in a precarious situation. The
        state (NH
        > in this case) has said you must have an SSN to work. It's all tied
      • Bob law
        ... (NH... has said you must have an SSN to work. ... [This is true if the employee has an SSN. If they do not have one then they can provide an affidavit of
        Message 3 of 14 , May 29 10:16 PM
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          --- Libertarian Lines <liblines@...> wrote:

          (NH... has said you must have an SSN to work.
          > It's all tied in to
          > unemployment taxes, checking for welfare fraud,
          > immigration status, etc
          > etc etc. That if an employre does not provide a
          > number for an employee or
          > independent contractor they will be fined.

          [This is true if the employee has an SSN. If they do
          not have one then they can provide an affidavit of
          fact to the employer who in turn will send it to the
          IRS and the employer will not be fined under this
          provision. Also, all an employer has to do is ask, and
          if the employee does not give them one all the
          employer has to do is sign off on an affidavit saying
          they asked and non was provided and again can avoid
          any fines under this provision. See 26 USC §§3402
          and/or 3403 for verification if memory serves me.]

          > Now, the SSA has stated that you don't need an SSN
          > to work. So obviously
          > there's some contradiction here.
          Therefore there is no contradiction to any other point
          of law.
          Respectfully,
          Bob L.
          >




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        • Libertarian Lines
          ... status, ... Thanks, I did look into it, but not sure it covers this situation, as below. ... The statute they cite is the Federal Unemployment Tax Act
          Message 4 of 14 , May 30 8:05 AM
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            > Trying to provide help to someone in a precarious situation. The state
            > (NH in this case) has said you must have an SSN to work. It's all tied
            > in to unemployment taxes, checking for welfare fraud, immigration
            status,
            > etc etc etc. That if an employre does not provide a number for an
            > employee or independent contractor they will be fined.
            >
            > The agency said NH is a "wage reporting state" which means just what it
            > sounds like.
            >
            > Now, the SSA has stated that you don't need an SSN to work. So obviously
            > there's some contradiction here. The state and quoted federal law says
            > give them a number, with no exemptions listed. Legal research by the
            > company and people involved hasn't turn up a clear citation to clear up
            > the matter.


            > From: "paradoxmagnus" <paradoxmagnus@...>
            >
            > The following section originally was part of the Privacy Act but was
            > not codified; it may be found at § 552a (note).

            Thanks, I did look into it, but not sure it covers this situation, as
            below.


            > Sec. 7(a) (1) It shall be unlawful for any Federal, State or local
            > government agency to deny to any individual any right, benefit, or
            > privilege provided by law because of such individual's refusal to
            > disclose his social security account number.
            >
            > (2) the provisions of paragraph (1) of this subsection shall not
            > apply with respect to--
            >
            > (A) any disclosure which is required by Federal statute, or

            The statute they cite is the Federal Unemployment Tax Act (where the state
            law derives from). Which does want an SSN or TIN. The evil genius of the
            law is that it penalizes employers rather than employees if they don't
            comply so companies all jump on the bandwagon to avoid the hassle. Even if
            the employee is willing to waive unemployment benefits, the state still
            wants to collect the info and the tax.


            > (B) any disclosure of a social security number to any Federal,
            > State, or local agency maintaining a system of records in existence
            > and operating before January 1, 1975, if such disclosure was
            > required under statute or regulation adopted prior to such date to
            > verify the identity of an individual.

            Not sure, but possible.




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          • Libertarian Lines
            ... etc ... The problem isn t with the IRS, that s easy enough to avoid. The problem is with a state employment agency. It s called the New Hire program, I
            Message 5 of 14 , Jun 1, 2005
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              > From: Bob law <saveyourpay@...>
              > Subject: Re: State says have to have SSN to work
              >
              > --- Libertarian Lines <liblines@...> wrote:
              >
              > > (NH... has said you must have an SSN to work. It's all tied in to
              > > unemployment taxes, checking for welfare fraud, immigration status,
              etc
              > > etc etc. That if an employre does not provide a number for an
              > > employee or independent contractor they will be fined.
              >
              > [This is true if the employee has an SSN. If they do
              > not have one then they can provide an affidavit of
              > fact to the employer who in turn will send it to the
              > IRS and the employer will not be fined under this
              > provision. Also, all an employer has to do is ask, and
              > if the employee does not give them one all the
              > employer has to do is sign off on an affidavit saying
              > they asked and non was provided and again can avoid
              > any fines under this provision. See 26 USC §§3402
              > and/or 3403 for verification if memory serves me.]

              The problem isn't with the IRS, that's easy enough to avoid. The problem
              is with a state employment agency. It's called the New Hire program, I
              believe many states have them.

              The info from the NHES office is that you need an SSN to work. Period.




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            • Bob law
              ... I would then naively go into their office and ask for a copy of the code section or public law which makes the SSN mandatory? If they can t produce it,
              Message 6 of 14 , Jun 1, 2005
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                >
                > The info from the NHES office is that you need an
                > SSN to work. Period.
                >
                I would then naively go into their office and ask for
                a copy of the code section or public law which makes
                the SSN mandatory? If they can't produce it, then ask
                to see their supervisor and suggest that they not make
                claims unsupported in law. I believe it is a felony to
                compell disclosure without a regulatory requirement.
                See 42 USC § 408(8) for verification and parameters of
                same. If the regulation didn't exist prior to Jan,
                1-1974, then they have no authority unless that
                section has since been modified by amendment. If the
                above turns out to be true in your estimation, then
                consider what one needs to do to support and defend
                their rights under the law; as they appear to be
                trying to deprive you of your rights under color of
                law which is also a felony under Title 18(deprivation
                of rights under color of law).
                Respectfully,
                Bob L.



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              • jrarcherone
                I have a related question. The state of North Carolina has passed a law stating that anyone who gets a license to drive in North Carolina must present a SSN.
                Message 7 of 14 , Jun 3, 2005
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                  I have a related question. The state of North Carolina has passed a
                  law stating that anyone who gets a license to drive in North
                  Carolina must present a SSN. They have a copy of the statute posted
                  at the DMV. According to them it is a State granted Priviledge to
                  drive! My question is this; what steps should I take to get a
                  license without having a SSN attached?

                  Jim A --- In tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com, Bob law
                  <saveyourpay@y...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > >
                  > > The info from the NHES office is that you need an
                  > > SSN to work. Period.
                  > >
                  > I would then naively go into their office and ask for
                • falconfield
                  The question is why would you get a driver’s license anyway? Isn’t a driver’ s license for those operating a “motor vehicle”? Isn’t a motor vehicle
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jun 3, 2005
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                    The question is why would you get a driver’s license anyway? Isn’t a driver’s license for those operating a “motor vehicle”? Isn’t a motor vehicle a vehicle used for profit or hire? Does one get paid to use the family car or truck to get to and from work? Does someone make a profit from getting the groceries from the store to the refrigerator at home?  Wasn’t it the legislative intent of the legislators to regulate the privilege of operating a motor vehicle because a business has no god given rights to use the public right of way? Why isn’t it called the public’s privilege of way? Forget about the SS number issue look into the issue of who is the person required to obtain a driver’s license in the first place. The right of locomotion is a birthright, why does the State think that it has the power to regulate and control our movement in the family auto or truck?

                     

                    George  

                     

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com [mailto:tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of jrarcherone
                    Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 1:24 PM
                    To: tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [tips_and_tricks] Re: State says have to have SSN to work

                     

                    I have a related question. The state of North Carolina has passed a
                    law stating that anyone who gets a license to drive in North
                    Carolina must present a SSN. They have a copy of the statute posted
                    at the DMV. According to them it is a State granted Priviledge to
                    drive! My question is this; what steps should I take to get a
                    license without having a SSN attached?

                    Jim A --- In tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com, Bob law
                    <saveyourpay@y...>
                    wrote:

                    >
                    >
                    > >
                    > > The info from the NHES office is that you need an
                    > > SSN to work. Period.
                    > >
                    > I would then naively go into their office and ask for



                  • james archer
                    I agree with you in every detail, George. But I don t have time enough to spend huge amounts of time trying to explain it to the police, and the courts and
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jun 3, 2005
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                      I agree with you in every detail, George. But I don't have time enough to spend huge amounts of time trying to explain it to the police, and the courts and getting hasseled every time I try to exercise my rights to move about using a car. I have chosen to spen those exciting moments fighting a different parasite with the initials IRS. So why can't there be a legal recourse to having to show the SSN/ID? As there is no law that requires it. If these people have made a law that does require it, it there a way to get it stricken as illegal?

                      Jim A

                      falconfield <falconfield@...> wrote:


                      v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
                      The question is why would you get a driver’s license anyway? Isn’t a driver’s license for those operating a “motor vehicle”? Isn’t a motor vehicle a vehicle used for profit or hire? Does one get paid
                    • rw fields
                      Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 17:01:58 -0400 From: falconfield Subject: RE: Re: State says have to have SSN to work The question is why
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jun 4, 2005
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                        Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 17:01:58 -0400
                           From: "falconfield" <falconfield@...>
                        Subject: RE: Re: State says have to have SSN to work

                         

                        The question is why would you get a driver�s license anyway? Isn�t a
                        driver�s license for those operating a �motor vehicle�? ####

                         

                        ONE MIGHT WANT TO DO A LITTLE DRIVING AT TIMES, FOR HIRE OR FOR A NEIGHBOUR.
                        DRIVING PAYS PRETTY GOOD IF ONE NEEDS WORK. I�VE HEARD ONE FIFTY A DAY PLUS EXPENSES.

                        ONE CAN ALWAYS PUT without prejudice 1-308 or an asterisk w/after the signature.

                        Then seems the license would be valid for all occasions,  IF ONE GETS THE REAL THING, COMMERCIAL LICENSE.


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                      • tthor.geo
                        Are you currently BEING PAID to drive some employer s motor vehicle ? Do you plan on getting a job where you are going to be PAID for driving some
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jun 4, 2005
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                          Are you currently BEING PAID to 'drive' some employer's 'motor vehicle'?
                          Do you plan on getting a job where you are going to be PAID for
                          driving some employer's 'motor vehicle'?

                          If NOT, why would you need or want a 'driver license'?

                          "jrarcherone" <arch5511@b...> wrote:
                          > I have a related question. The state of North Carolina has passed a
                          > law stating that anyone who gets a license to drive in North
                          > Carolina must present a SSN. They have a copy of the statute posted
                          > at the DMV. According to them it is a State granted Priviledge to
                          > drive! My question is this; what steps should I take to get a
                          > license without having a SSN attached?
                        • hobot
                          You and I know its a money control scam and w/o one its a garantee extra fight risk at any stop, or so I ve found sans one over a decade now but wonder what
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jun 4, 2005
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                            You and I know its a money control scam and w/o one
                            its a garantee extra fight risk at any stop, or
                            so I've found sans one over a decade now but
                            wonder what the terms will be like now that REAL ID
                            was passed by 'our' representives? Will runing
                            w/o RID be instant terrorist charges?

                            hobot


                            "tthor.geo" wrote:
                            >
                            > Are you currently BEING PAID to 'drive' some employer's 'motor
                            > vehicle'?
                            > Do you plan on getting a job where you are going to be PAID for
                            > driving some employer's 'motor vehicle'?
                            >
                            > If NOT, why would you need or want a 'driver license'?
                          • james archer
                            Thanks for that response-I will check it out. It s the most practical advice I ve gotten so far. I appreciate all who have responded. Good comments all.
                            Message 13 of 14 , Jun 6, 2005
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                              Thanks for that response-I will check it out. It's the most practical advice I've gotten so far. I appreciate all who have responded. Good comments all.
                               
                              Sincerely, Jim A

                              rw fields <rwfs68@...> wrote:


                              Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2005 17:01:58 -0400
                                 From: "falconfield" <falconfield@...>
                              Subject: RE: Re: State says have to have SSN to work

                               

                              The question is why would you get a driver’s license anyway? Isn’t a
                              driver’s license for those operating a “motor vehicle”? ####

                               

                              ONE MIGHT WANT TO DO A LITTLE DRIVING AT TIMES, FOR HIRE OR FOR A NEIGHBOUR.
                              DRIVING PAYS PRETTY GOOD IF ONE NEEDS WORK. I’VE HEARD ONE FIFTY A DAY PLUS EXPENSES.

                              ONE CAN ALWAYS PUT without prejudice 1-308 or an asterisk w/after the signature.

                              Then seems the license would be valid for all occasions,  IF ONE GETS THE REAL THING, COMMERCIAL LICENSE.


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                            • paradoxmagnus
                              The following section originally was part of the Privacy Act but was not codified; it may be found at § 552a (note). Sec. 7(a) (1) It shall be unlawful for
                              Message 14 of 14 , Jun 6, 2005
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                                The following section originally was part of the Privacy Act but was
                                not codified; it may be found at § 552a (note).

                                Sec. 7(a) (1) It shall be unlawful for any Federal, State or local
                                government agency to deny to any individual any right, benefit, or
                                privilege provided by law because of such individual's refusal to
                                disclose his social security account number.

                                (2) the provisions of paragraph (1) of this subsection shall not
                                apply with respect to--

                                (A) any disclosure which is required by Federal statute, or

                                (B) any disclosure of a social security number to any Federal,
                                State, or local agency maintaining a system of records in existence
                                and operating before January 1, 1975, if such disclosure was
                                required under statute or regulation adopted prior to such date to
                                verify the identity of an individual.

                                (b) Any Federal, State or local government agency which requests an
                                individual to disclose his social security account number shall
                                inform that individual whether that disclosure is mandatory or
                                voluntary, by what statutory or other authority such number is
                                solicited, and what uses will be made of it.

                                http://www.usdoj.gov/04foia/privstat.htm

                                --- In tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com, james archer
                                <jrarcherone@y...> wrote:
                                > I agree with you in every detail, George. But I don't have time
                                enough to spend huge amounts of time trying to explain it to the
                                police, and the courts and getting hasseled every time I try to
                                exercise my rights to move about using a car. I have chosen to spen
                                those exciting moments fighting a different parasite with the
                                initials IRS. So why can't there be a legal recourse to having to
                                show the SSN/ID? As there is no law that requires it. If these
                                people have made a law that does require it, it there a way to get
                                it stricken as illegal?
                                >
                                > Jim A
                                >
                                > falconfield <falconfield@c...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}o\:* {behavior:url
                                (#default#VML);}w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}.shape
                                {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
                                > The question is why would you get a driver's license anyway? Isn't
                                a driver's license for those operating a "motor vehicle"? Isn't a
                                motor vehicle a vehicle used for profit or hire? Does one get paid
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