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Re: [tips_and_tricks] George Mercier/ FRN's vs what?

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  • hobot
    One who lives in a cave and is able to withdraw from most society and outside of home activies or dosen t have family out in school systems and employment can
    Message 1 of 18 , Aug 11, 2004
      One who lives in a cave and is able to withdraw from
      most society and outside of home activies or dosen't
      have family out in school systems and employment can
      make do trading metal coin or subtance and is an ideal
      to seek for sure but fails in practice for a lot of us
      who can't fully limit the exposures to the beast or those
      who don't know they are helping work in its claws.

      A fundemental aspect that irks me is that these FRN's
      are private property of a big corporation and if we are
      using them we must abide by the owner's rules on its
      property use. I for a few years, tried to do all
      transactions outside of FRN's but find the conversion
      steps suck too much value out of the remainders for most
      to afford. Our short and curlies have been held hard
      for a long time and it hurts when we must regrow the
      roots constantly on each step away from their grip.
      But then again I guess that's why we were once known as
      the home of the free, land of the brave...

      So Froggie, instead of irking us with just glimpses of
      what's possible, leave us some practical escape pointers
      to use to avoid the belly of the beast and not get painfully
      digested to worthless ground litter.

      hobot


      Frog Farmer wrote:
      >
      > I was talking about FRNs, and current times. I'd be interested
      > in
      > reading that case you mentioned. Can you give me a link to it?
      >
    • Frog Farmer
      ... I live in a nice house with enough land to raise frogs and other food. I have activities outside home also. ... I never asked the state for permission to
      Message 2 of 18 , Aug 11, 2004
        On Aug 11, 2004, at 10:34 AM, hobot wrote:

        > One who lives in a cave and is able to withdraw from
        > most society and outside of home activies

        I live in a nice house with enough land to raise frogs and other food.
        I have activities outside home also.

        > or dosen't
        > have family out in school systems

        I never asked the state for permission to have a wife, and never gave
        them any children.

        > and employment

        I will not be a slave (employee). I am unemployable.
        It was a conscious choice I made.

        > can
        > make do trading metal coin or subtance and is an ideal
        > to seek for sure but fails in practice for a lot of us

        But only for a lack of WILL POWER, not any actual physical
        impossibility.

        > who can't fully limit the exposures to the beast or those
        > who don't know they are helping work in its claws.

        Can't? Or WON'T? And yes, ignorance has its price.

        > A fundemental aspect that irks me is that these FRN's
        > are private property of a big corporation and if we are
        > using them we must abide by the owner's rules on its
        > property use.

        That's right. What irks me is people claiming they are "forced" to use
        them, while nobody EVER tried to force me to use them.

        > I for a few years, tried to do all
        > transactions outside of FRN's but find the conversion
        > steps suck too much value out of the remainders for most
        > to afford.

        Are you "most"? I've always been a "1%er"! Your problem is in your
        mind, where you establish your values in FRNs instead of in substance.
        With you a FRN is a FRN today, and tomorrow. To me, a FRN fluctuates
        by the minute as can be plainly seen on any international monetary
        exchange. To me, the FRN has lost over 95% of its value in my own
        lifetime. The mental steps needed to do conversion to metals never
        approaches that high level of devaluation. Just since this January,
        your FRN has lost over 25% of its objective value against other
        currencies. Have you taken time to consider that FACT?

        > Our short and curlies have been held hard
        > for a long time and it hurts when we must regrow the
        > roots constantly on each step away from their grip.

        You let them into your pants, you get what you deserve. I don't
        experience your problem because I decided not to long ago.

        > But then again I guess that's why we were once known as
        > the home of the free, land of the brave...

        Right, once, long ago. Now it's "Land of the Fee; Home of the Slave".

        > So Froggie, instead of irking us with just glimpses of
        > what's possible, leave us some practical escape pointers
        > to use to avoid the belly of the beast and not get painfully
        > digested to worthless ground litter.

        I did today in another post. Let me know which steps present you with
        an insurmountable problem.
      • Steve Laubly
        The FRN game is just like the old children s card game Old Maid . FRNs are great! they are light and easy to carry, can represent a lot of wealth without
        Message 3 of 18 , Aug 11, 2004
          The FRN game is just like the old children's card game "Old Maid".
          FRNs are great! they are light and easy to carry, can represent a lot of
          wealth without taking up a lot of room, and there isn't anything in this
          world you can't get with FRNs.
          Sure, some day they will be useful only for toilet paper, but if you follow
          a few simple rules, you can beat the "Old Maid".
          1. Collect as many as you can
          2. Immediately exchange them for "hard assets" (gold, silver, guns, tools,
          property, etc.)
          3. Keep as little as possible of your assets in FRNs, knowing that they
          will crash, and whoever has the least FRNs when it happens will be the rest
          off.
          4. Don't let ANYONE....especially the gov't, have access to or control over
          your assets.
        • David L. Miner
          Steve -- Sounds like the most logical plan I have seen in years, and one which I have been following for almost 10 years. Good job! Yours in freedom, Dave
          Message 4 of 18 , Aug 12, 2004
            Steve --

            Sounds like the most logical plan I have seen in years, and one which I have
            been following for almost 10 years.

            Good job!

            Yours in freedom,

            Dave Miner
            www.FreedomSite.net


            -----Original Message-----
            From: Steve Laubly [mailto:sundance1@...]
            Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 9:01 PM
            To: tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [tips_and_tricks] George Mercier/ FRN's vs what?


            The FRN game is just like the old children's card game "Old Maid".
            FRNs are great! they are light and easy to carry, can represent a lot of
            wealth without taking up a lot of room, and there isn't anything in this
            world you can't get with FRNs.
            Sure, some day they will be useful only for toilet paper, but if you follow
            a few simple rules, you can beat the "Old Maid".
            1. Collect as many as you can
            2. Immediately exchange them for "hard assets" (gold, silver, guns, tools,
            property, etc.)
            3. Keep as little as possible of your assets in FRNs, knowing that they
            will crash, and whoever has the least FRNs when it happens will be the rest
            off.
            4. Don't let ANYONE....especially the gov't, have access to or control over
            your assets.
          • Nilbux@aol.com
            In a message dated 8/12/2004 3:51:22 PM US Mountain Standard Time, ... I have been saying they will become useless. I still say that. I d rather use corn cobs
            Message 5 of 18 , Aug 12, 2004
              In a message dated 8/12/2004 3:51:22 PM US Mountain Standard Time, dminer@... writes:

              Sure, some day they will be useful only for toilet paper,


                  I have been saying they will become useless. I still say that.

                  I'd rather use corn cobs or some of the junk mail that I receive.
            • Frog Farmer
              ... Again, I have lived without FRNs for over 25 years. I am not receiving any charity or public assistance. I have been disabled a lot of that time. Let me
              Message 6 of 18 , Aug 31, 2004
                On Aug 12, 2004, at 11:57 AM, David L. Miner wrote:

                > Steve --
                >
                > Sounds like the most logical plan I have seen in years, and one which
                > I have
                > been following for almost 10 years.

                Again, I have lived without FRNs for over 25 years. I am not receiving
                any charity or public assistance. I have been disabled a lot of that
                time.

                Let me quote your own website:

                "If you are not concerned about the United Nations and their plans for
                the world and for America, then you are entirely too ignorant!"

                Now let me change a few of the terms.

                If you are not concerned about the nature of FRNs versus "dollars" and
                the different jurisdictions in which they each place their users, then
                you are entirely too ignorant!

                I know you can't take that the wrong way because the recognition of
                ignorance is something you seem to already recognize.

                > Good job!
                >

                In what way was Steve's witty avoidance of my questions a "good job"?
                If he was trying to be a comedian, yes, it was a good job.

                If it was meant to counter issues I raised, it was a piss-poor job. He
                couldn't rebut one contention.

                > Yours in freedom,
                >
                > Dave Miner
                > www.FreedomSite.net
                >

                Mine own in even more freedom,
                Frog Farmer
                www.frogfarm.org

                I wasn't going to reply to this non-reply, but since some think it's a
                good job, I'll share my line-by-line take on it.

                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Steve Laubly [mailto:sundance1@...]
                > Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 9:01 PM
                > To: tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: RE: [tips_and_tricks] George Mercier/ FRN's vs what?
                >
                >
                > The FRN game is just like the old children's card game "Old Maid".

                They were not supposed to be that way, were they? Did anyone tell you
                that you had to be willing to take a risk in holding them for very
                long? If they did they were lying, because it's not a "risk" when your
                guaranteed loss is part of the plan.

                > FRNs are great! they are light and easy to carry, can represent a lot
                > of
                > wealth without taking up a lot of room

                Yes, they are light. For a weakling, this could be important. But
                even for the likes of Stephen Hawking, it would not be an issue
                compelling use. As for wealth represented by space taken, other items
                perform more efficiently (by BEING wealth in the space they take,
                rather than REPRESENTING wealth) and provide better fire protection.
                FRNs represent wealth only in the way notches on a six-gun represent
                deaths.

                > and there isn't anything in this
                > world you can't get with FRNs.

                One thing you cannot get with FRNs is a receipt from the IRS. And then
                you cannot get anything from me or others like me.

                And other than that you can probably "get" just about anything as long
                as you are able to find someone who doesn't mind accepting FRNs. There
                are a lot more of whom do not accept FRNs than you are apparently
                aware. FRNs do not substitute for "dollars" in all regards. Ask
                their maker, the Federal Reserve. You'd trust their answer, wouldn't
                you?

                > Sure, some day they will be useful only for toilet paper, but if you
                > follow
                > a few simple rules, you can beat the "Old Maid".

                So, morality does not enter into your dealings? Because you yourself
                are willing to accept debt in return for substance, you believe it is
                moral to take substance from another while giving only bad debt?
                Sounds like a heroin addict who sells to children knowing that they
                will soon be suffering like he is. He justifies it to himself too. Do
                you sit down at rigged poker games too, as long as you feel the loser
                will not be you?

                > 1. Collect as many as you can

                Give life liberty and property (substance connected to rights in the
                Common Law jurisdiction)) away in return for participation in a scheme
                in the Equity jurisdiction? Give away your absolute rights to
                property in return for only an equitable interest? No thanks!

                > 2. Immediately exchange them for "hard assets" (gold, silver, guns,
                > tools,
                > property, etc.)

                Ahhh, so you DO recognize the value of substance, and also recognize
                the perils of FRNs, it's just that you see nothing wrong with
                representing them as dollars when you take away the life liberty and
                property of other human beings. You don't explain the problem FRNs can
                present when you pass them do you? You'd pass counterfeit rather than
                take a loss, wouldn't you?

                > 3. Keep as little as possible of your assets in FRNs, knowing that
                > they
                > will crash, and whoever has the least FRNs when it happens will be the
                > rest
                > off.

                Well then I'll have you beat because I won't have any. I guess that
                shows I have more will power than you, because "as little as possible"
                for me is zero, but for you, zero FRNs is an impossibility.

                > 4. Don't let ANYONE....especially the gov't, have access to or
                > control over
                > your assets.

                You give them control the moment you accept FRNs. You haven't been
                paying enough attention to notice that yet. I predict that someday
                even you will notice it. You operate in Equity instead of at the
                Common Law. You may not know what that means. Whether you know or not
                does not affect the results of being in one jurisdiction or the other.
                Pretending to be free does not make one free. Actually being free of
                the Equity jurisdiction is a condition that can be attained by one who
                cares about it more than you do.

                So, don't waste your time trying to get the rights of a free man at the
                common law when you are continually entering the equity jurisdiction.
                They are to a large degree mutually exclusive.

                I refuse to gamble what I have on the credibility of my enemy. Good
                luck to you!

                Regards,

                FF
              • Nilbux@aol.com
                In a message dated 8/31/2004 8:32:03 PM US Mountain Standard Time, ... FRNs do not represent wealth, they expropriate wealth and the Fed admits this. The Fed
                Message 7 of 18 , Aug 31, 2004
                  In a message dated 8/31/2004 8:32:03 PM US Mountain Standard Time, frogfrmr@... writes:

                  FRNs are great! they are light and easy to carry, can represent a lot
                  >of wealth without taking up a lot of room

                  nilbux reply:
                  FRNs do not represent wealth, they expropriate wealth
                  and the Fed admits this.  The Fed admits they operate
                  a confidence game and that the history of banking is a
                  history of fraud.

                  It matters none what they admit when less that one
                  per cent read it and the few who recite it are ridiculed.
                  Read page 3 of Modern Money Mechanics.

                   
                • David L. Miner
                  Frog -- You seem to be operating under the belief that all of us can choose to live on a farm and grow everything we need. This is simply not possible. So we
                  Message 8 of 18 , Aug 31, 2004
                    Frog --

                    You seem to be operating under the belief that all of us can choose to live
                    on a farm and grow everything we need. This is simply not possible. So we
                    are all faced with how do we implement the proper political views within the
                    realm of reality. Your reality is simply impossible for most Americans. It
                    is not a matter of choice, it is a matter of impossibility.

                    I am happy for you that you have been able to do without FRNs for 25 years.
                    I applaud your situation and your efforts. Me, I disagree with your claim
                    that somehow using FRNs places me under some form of federal servitude. I
                    am one of the most free individuals I have ever met. I have not filed a
                    return and have not paid income taxes in more than 14 years. I use a Common
                    Law business trust to conduct business. I use their FRNs against them by
                    using them to purchase hard assets and build my wealth in ways and in areas
                    where the fed govt cannot touch it. I will be able to retire at age 60 with
                    a comfortable income that the fed govt cannot reach or even know about. And
                    I will continue living in the Greatest Nation in history, and not retreat to
                    some frog farm or some third world country to do so. I have no problems
                    with those who do, I just choose not to.

                    You and others that claim that the mere use or even handling of a FRN places
                    me into some form of servitude is simply not true. You and others who claim
                    that there must be some set of extremely difficult steps I must go through
                    in order to be free are simply not correct.

                    I fully understand the nature of FRNs, and have given speeches and written
                    articles concerning the unconstitutional nature of the Federal Reserve and
                    FRNs. But the "different jurisdiction" you allege does not exist unless I
                    choose to let it exist. I can be and am a Sovereign Citizen whether or not
                    I use gold or FRNs or chickens. The 14th Amendment ADDED certain benefits
                    but TOOK NOTHING AWAY from me. It just so happens that what the Amendment
                    added I choose to not utilize. But I am still a Sovereign Citizen
                    regardless of what you believe or claim.

                    If what you and so many others claim is true in reality and not just your
                    imaginations, then how can so many people using FRNs fight the IRS in court
                    and win? If these people are truly in servitude with no rights and the fed
                    govt has all power, then how in heaven's name could they ever win and walk
                    away without paying income taxes?

                    There is no question about the fact that the fed govt has grown far beyond
                    its Constitutional limitations. We have not had a Constitutional Republic
                    since about the time President Lincoln declared war against half of America.
                    The fed reserve is indeed unconstitutional. FRNs are indeed
                    unconstitutional. Gold and silver money is required of the States ONLY, and
                    not of the fed govt, but FRNs are still not Constitutional. But the bondage
                    created here has absolutely nothing to do with using FRNs or any other
                    govt-issued paper. The bondage has everything to do with the apathy of most
                    Americans. We The People have abdicated our responsibility to manage our
                    government. We have allowed it to get totally out of control. And these
                    same excesses will continue and increase until We The People suck it up and
                    do something about our paid public servants who ignore the very Oaths of
                    Office they swear.

                    You can refuse to use FRNs all you want and that won't change the govt's
                    excesses one whit. FRNs are only one of many means the fed govt uses to
                    keep We The People in check.

                    We need to attack the root of the problem, which is a fed govt that has
                    grossly exceeded its Constitutional limitations. FRNs and at least a dozen
                    other very important and legitimate issues are merely symptoms of the root
                    problem. And even the total elimination of FRNs will not in any way bring
                    our fed govt back into its Constitutional limitations.

                    Yours in freedom,

                    Dave Miner
                    www.FreedomSite.net
                  • David L. Miner
                    Nilbux -- I have challenged you before on this one, and you still have not responded. Please post for us the quote from Page 3 (or any other page) of Modern
                    Message 9 of 18 , Sep 1, 2004
                      Nilbux --
                       
                      I have challenged you before on this one, and you still have not responded.  Please post for us the quote from Page 3 (or any other page) of Modern Money Mechanics that states what you claim.  I have read the entire document a number of times and have never found your reference.
                       
                      The fed never admits to a con game or fraud in the entire document.

                      Yours in freedom,

                      Dave Miner
                      www.FreedomSite.net

                       

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Nilbux@... [mailto:Nilbux@...]
                      Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 11:51 PM
                      To: tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: WARNING-IFRAME-Re: [tips_and_tricks] George Mercier/ FRN's vs what?

                      In a message dated 8/31/2004 8:32:03 PM US Mountain Standard Time, frogfrmr@... writes:

                      FRNs are great! they are light and easy to carry, can represent a lot
                      >of wealth without taking up a lot of room

                      nilbux reply:
                      FRNs do not represent wealth, they expropriate wealth
                      and the Fed admits this.  The Fed admits they operate
                      a confidence game and that the history of banking is a
                      history of fraud.

                      It matters none what they admit when less that one
                      per cent read it and the few who recite it are ridiculed.
                      Read page 3 of Modern Money Mechanics.

                       

                    • Frog Farmer
                      ... No, I m not. I live in a 900 sq. ft. house on a regular size lot about 1/5 of an acre. I do not grow everything I need. ... False premise, false
                      Message 10 of 18 , Sep 1, 2004
                        On Aug 31, 2004, at 8:55 PM, David L. Miner wrote:

                        > Frog --
                        >
                        > You seem to be operating under the belief that all of us can choose to
                        > live
                        > on a farm and grow everything we need.

                        No, I'm not. I live in a 900 sq. ft. house on a regular size lot about
                        1/5 of an acre. I do not grow everything I need.

                        > This is simply not possible.
                        False premise, false conclusion.

                        > So we
                        > are all faced with how do we implement the proper political views
                        > within the
                        > realm of reality.

                        "Proper political views"? Sounds like "political correctness". We are
                        ALL in the "realm of reality" in case you didn't know it.

                        > Your reality is simply impossible for most Americans. It
                        > is not a matter of choice, it is a matter of impossibility.

                        You ignore that FRNs are only 3 to 5 % of what can be used as money,
                        yet you think that 100% of the people are compelled to use that 5%.
                        You seem to believe that living in a particular place or doing
                        particular work subjects one to compulsory FRN usage. That is just
                        plain wrong. The main factor is a lack of will. That's what gets most
                        people using FRNs.

                        > I am happy for you that you have been able to do without FRNs for 25
                        > years.
                        > I applaud your situation and your efforts. Me, I disagree with your
                        > claim
                        > that somehow using FRNs places me under some form of federal servitude.

                        It places you under laws dealing with FRNs as their subject. Why do
                        you ignore certain aspects of FRN use that do not attach to use of
                        other mediums? And the fact that you receive debt for substance is
                        quite a loss. I'd say you are conquered more by the Federal Reserve
                        than the federal government. They are not the same, you know.

                        > I
                        > am one of the most free individuals I have ever met. I have not filed
                        > a
                        > return and have not paid income taxes in more than 14 years.

                        Got you beat there by over a decade.

                        > I use a Common
                        > Law business trust to conduct business.

                        Are you the Creator, the Trustee, or the Beneficiary? How does your
                        Common Law trust avoid operating in Equity when it uses FRNs and Fed
                        credit? Don't you know that a common law trust leaves the common law
                        when it enters into equity, just like anyone else?

                        > I use their FRNs against them by
                        > using them to purchase hard assets and build my wealth in ways and in
                        > areas
                        > where the fed govt cannot touch it.

                        Yes, you "purchase" but do not PAY.
                        You choose to discharge your debts in equity, not at common law.

                        > I will be able to retire at age 60 with
                        > a comfortable income that the fed govt cannot reach or even know
                        > about. And
                        > I will continue living in the Greatest Nation in history, and not
                        > retreat to
                        > some frog farm or some third world country to do so.

                        Retreat? How is my frog farm different than the Greatest Nation in
                        history? FRNs are helping to turn this country into a third world
                        country, and your every little bit helps.

                        > I have no problems
                        > with those who do, I just choose not to.
                        >
                        > You and others that claim that the mere use or even handling of a FRN
                        > places
                        > me into some form of servitude is simply not true.

                        As far as you know. I happen to know differently. You refuse to
                        consider that FRNs do not effect PAYMENT.
                        You are robbed as well as you rob others with them. Just because you
                        can ignore it does not change that REALITY.

                        > You and others who claim
                        > that there must be some set of extremely difficult steps I must go
                        > through
                        > in order to be free are simply not correct.

                        I NEVER CLAIMED THAT "there must be some set of extremely difficult
                        steps I must go through in order to be free".
                        You couldn't quote it, so why make it up?

                        > I fully understand the nature of FRNs, and have given speeches and
                        > written
                        > articles concerning the unconstitutional nature of the Federal Reserve
                        > and
                        > FRNs. But the "different jurisdiction" you allege does not exist
                        > unless I
                        > choose to let it exist.

                        Oh, really? What makes you so special that exempts you? How do you
                        manage to operate in the equity jurisdiction without being affected by
                        it? It IS a jurisdiction "different" from the common law.

                        > I can be and am a Sovereign Citizen whether or not
                        > I use gold or FRNs or chickens. The 14th Amendment ADDED certain
                        > benefits
                        > but TOOK NOTHING AWAY from me. It just so happens that what the
                        > Amendment
                        > added I choose to not utilize. But I am still a Sovereign Citizen
                        > regardless of what you believe or claim.

                        "Sovereign" and "citizen" are mutually exclusive terms.

                        > If what you and so many others claim is true in reality and not just
                        > your
                        > imaginations, then how can so many people using FRNs fight the IRS in
                        > court
                        > and win?

                        FRNs are obviously not the only issue. And many people quickly realize
                        that FRN use is not compulsory, and that if everyone were to use them,
                        there would not be enough to go around. (Even though the presses run
                        24/7.)

                        > If these people are truly in servitude with no rights and the fed
                        > govt has all power, then how in heaven's name could they ever win and
                        > walk
                        > away without paying income taxes?

                        You must believe there is only one issue. Or one lawful status of man.
                        Tsk tsk tsk.

                        > There is no question about the fact that the fed govt has grown far
                        > beyond
                        > its Constitutional limitations. We have not had a Constitutional
                        > Republic
                        > since about the time President Lincoln declared war against half of
                        > America.

                        But you and others will take and accept whatever you find. I require
                        law, not consensus beliefs, to back the claims of others upon me.

                        > The fed reserve is indeed unconstitutional. FRNs are indeed
                        > unconstitutional. Gold and silver money is required of the States
                        > ONLY, and
                        > not of the fed govt, but FRNs are still not Constitutional. But the
                        > bondage
                        > created here has absolutely nothing to do with using FRNs or any other
                        > govt-issued paper. The bondage has everything to do with the apathy
                        > of most
                        > Americans. We The People have abdicated our responsibility to manage
                        > our
                        > government. We have allowed it to get totally out of control. And
                        > these
                        > same excesses will continue and increase until We The People suck it
                        > up and
                        > do something about our paid public servants who ignore the very Oaths
                        > of
                        > Office they swear.

                        Here in California, they refuse to swear the required oaths, but that
                        doesn't stop the people from groveling before the impostors. You can't
                        even reject their admittedly flawed paper, even though ones such as I
                        can easily. No, requiring oaths and lawful money is beyond the mental
                        ability of today's crop of brainwashed victims, who all have to wait
                        for a concensus to stop waiving rights and demand accountability from
                        their neighbors who seek to oversee them.

                        > You can refuse to use FRNs all you want and that won't change the
                        > govt's
                        > excesses one whit.

                        I can refuse to vote in the Ladies Auxiliary and that won't change what
                        they do one whit either.

                        So what? I'm not waiting for a concensus to live my life as a free
                        man. I also do not feel the need to join the Ladies Auxiliary just
                        because they vote on something, and I do not feel compelled to part
                        with my time, liberty or property in return for debt when substance
                        provides me more rights.

                        > FRNs are only one of many means the fed govt uses to
                        > keep We The People in check.
                        >

                        Speak for yourself.

                        > We need to attack the root of the problem, which is a fed govt that has
                        > grossly exceeded its Constitutional limitations.

                        Dream on! I've raised the issue of oaths of office as a constitutional
                        requirement, yet who takes that seriously besides me?

                        "We" don't need to do anything. It is individuals who waive
                        constitutional requirements one by one. I cannot afford to wait until
                        a majority decides not to waive their rights anymore. BTW, accepting
                        discharge instead of payment is a waiver.

                        > FRNs and at least a dozen
                        > other very important and legitimate issues are merely symptoms of the
                        > root
                        > problem. And even the total elimination of FRNs will not in any way
                        > bring
                        > our fed govt back into its Constitutional limitations.

                        Do you have any idea what it WOULD do??
                      • David L. Miner
                        Frog -- I said: Me, I disagree with your claim that somehow using FRNs places me under some form of federal servitude. Then you said: It places you under
                        Message 11 of 18 , Sep 2, 2004
                          Frog --

                          I said: "Me, I disagree with your claim that somehow using FRNs places me
                          under some form of federal servitude."

                          Then you said: "It places you under laws dealing with FRNs as their subject.
                          Why do you ignore certain aspects of FRN use that do not attach to use of
                          other mediums?"

                          Such as?

                          You said: ""And the fact that you receive debt for substance is quite a
                          loss."

                          It is no loss at all if I can turn around and use that "debt" to purchase
                          things of substance.

                          You said: "How does your Common Law trust avoid operating in Equity when it
                          uses FRNs and Fed credit?" Then you went on to say: "Yes, you "purchase"
                          but do not PAY. You choose to discharge your debts in equity, not at common
                          law."

                          As a free and Sovereign individual, I can operate in Equity when I choose
                          and leave that realm when I choose. What is your problem with Equity,
                          anyway? What matters as long as the debt is discharged?

                          And you said that you never claimed that "there must be some set of
                          extremely difficult steps I must go through in order to be free". Yet you
                          and others have claimed several times in this group that the reason most
                          choose to not subscribe to your views was the "fact" that most people won't
                          put in the effort to do otherwise. It does take effort. Most people, and
                          every company I know of, will not accept gold or silver as payment.

                          You said: ""Sovereign" and "citizen" are mutually exclusive terms."

                          Only in your world, not in mine.

                          I said: "If these people are truly in servitude with no rights and the fed
                          govt has all power, then how in heaven's name could they ever win and walk
                          away without paying income taxes?" Then you relied: "You must believe there
                          is only one issue. Or one lawful status of man. Tsk tsk tsk."

                          Nice sound bite, but you never addressed my question. If these people use
                          FRNs and somehow lose their power or sovereignty and become subjects with n
                          rights, how do they win against those who are supposedly in control of their
                          lives?

                          You said: "But you and others will take and accept whatever you find. I
                          require law, not consensus beliefs, to back the claims of others upon me."

                          First, I do not accept whatever I find, or we would not be engaged in this
                          discussion. Nor would I have successfully stopped filing tax returns almost
                          15 years ago. Second, you do not require law, or you would accept the Fed
                          Reserve and its money. The Fed does not operate by "consensus belief" as
                          you suggest. The Fed may operate outside our Constitution but it DOES
                          operate under the laws passed by our Congress over the past 90 years.

                          I have no idea what the Ladies Auxiliary has to do with our discussion of
                          FRNs, but feel free to offer any irrelevant comments you want.

                          The bottom line is simple. I do not subject myself to anything just by
                          using FRNs unless I choose to be subjected. Which I do not. You are
                          totally correct in that many in America and around the world use FRNs
                          without knowing what they are. But you are not correct that using FRNs is
                          always bad in every way.

                          But the good news is that America is still free enough for you to live how
                          you want and for me to live how I want. Free enough for a while, that is...

                          Yours in freedom,

                          Dave Miner
                          www.FreedomSite.net



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                        • John Wilde
                          Forgive them Dave for they know not from which they speak sometimes. Some guru out there has told them equity is a bad, wicked, terrible and awful thing. Just
                          Message 12 of 18 , Sep 2, 2004
                            Forgive them Dave for they know not from which they speak sometimes.
                            Some guru out there has told them equity is a bad, wicked, terrible and
                            awful thing. Just like some people try and tell us that some drugs that
                            "they" don't like are a bad, wicked, terrible and awful thing. That is
                            why this movement has waged this never ending war against "equity" as
                            the gummint has waged the never ending war on some drugs. The mentality
                            is the same, and the result will be the same. Disaster.

                            g'day
                            John Wilde

                            David L. Miner wrote:

                            >Frog --
                            >
                            >I said: "Me, I disagree with your claim that somehow using FRNs places me
                            >under some form of federal servitude."
                            >
                            >Then you said: "It places you under laws dealing with FRNs as their subject.
                            >Why do you ignore certain aspects of FRN use that do not attach to use of
                            >other mediums?"
                            >
                            >Such as?
                            >
                            >You said: ""And the fact that you receive debt for substance is quite a
                            >loss."
                            >
                            >It is no loss at all if I can turn around and use that "debt" to purchase
                            >things of substance.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • leos
                            ... from the public, not from them! If you the public create the note from which a book entry is created from which checks are issued to others, they put up
                            Message 13 of 18 , Sep 3, 2004


                              > They (the banks) admit all "money" is created through loans.
                              Promissory notes
                              from the public, not from them! If you the public create the note
                              from which a book entry is created from which checks are issued to
                              others, "they" put up nothing whatsoever, stand to lose nothing,
                              have taken no risk, what else would you call this other than
                              a "con"???
                              >   ----- Original Message -----
                              >  
                              From: David L. Miner
                              >   To:
                              href="mailto:tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com">tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com
                              >   Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 9:04
                              AM
                              >   Subject: RE: WARNING-IFRAME-Re: [tips_and_tricks] George
                              Mercier/ FRN's vs what?
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 9:04 AM
                              Subject: RE: WARNING-IFRAME-Re: [tips_and_tricks] George Mercier/ FRN's vs what?

                              Nilbux --
                               
                              I have challenged you before on this one, and you still have not responded.  Please post for us the quote from Page 3 (or any other page) of Modern Money Mechanics that states what you claim.  I have read the entire document a number of times and have never found your reference.
                               
                              The fed never admits to a con game or fraud in the entire document.

                              Yours in freedom,

                              Dave Miner
                              www.FreedomSite.net

                               

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Nilbux@... [mailto:Nilbux@...]
                              Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 11:51 PM
                              To: tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: WARNING-IFRAME-Re: [tips_and_tricks] George Mercier/ FRN's vs what?

                              In a message dated 8/31/2004 8:32:03 PM US Mountain Standard Time, frogfrmr@... writes:

                              FRNs are great! they are light and easy to carry, can represent a lot
                              >of wealth without taking up a lot of room

                              nilbux reply:
                              FRNs do not represent wealth, they expropriate wealth
                              and the Fed admits this.  The Fed admits they operate
                              a confidence game and that the history of banking is a
                              history of fraud.

                              It matters none what they admit when less that one
                              per cent read it and the few who recite it are ridiculed.
                              Read page 3 of Modern Money Mechanics.

                               


                            • jm367@bellsouth.net
                              The fraud and the con arises from construction of person in the 14th amendment and from statutes which defined person such as the Dictionary Act The people in
                              Message 14 of 18 , Sep 3, 2004
                                The fraud and the con arises from construction of person in the 14th amendment and from statutes which defined person such as the Dictionary Act  The people in the person of their sovereignty, that is in their proper person, have the reserved right to emit bills of credit.  This right was prohibited to the States and not granted to the federal power. In the character or capacity of a person authorized to exist by a State, there exists no valid right under the Constitution to emit bills of credit and neither has any other person authorized to exist by a State, such as a corporation, the right to emit bills of credit.  This right is reserved to the people in their proper person.   Fractional reserve banking is not emitting bills of credit.  It is emitting bills which can be redeemed from reserves of money.
                                 
                              • Frog Farmer
                                ... How about the Equity jurisdiction including the version of the UCC in your state? The topic of the differences between law and equity are beyond my time
                                Message 15 of 18 , Sep 3, 2004
                                  On Sep 2, 2004, at 10:41 AM, David L. Miner wrote:

                                  > I said: "Me, I disagree with your claim that somehow using FRNs places
                                  > me
                                  > under some form of federal servitude."
                                  >
                                  > Then you said: "It places you under laws dealing with FRNs as their
                                  > subject.
                                  > Why do you ignore certain aspects of FRN use that do not attach to use
                                  > of
                                  > other mediums?"
                                  >
                                  > Such as?

                                  How about the Equity jurisdiction including the version of the UCC in
                                  your state?
                                  The topic of the differences between law and equity are beyond my time
                                  available to explain, but are easily researched on the net.

                                  > You said: ""And the fact that you receive debt for substance is quite a
                                  > loss."
                                  >
                                  > It is no loss at all if I can turn around and use that "debt" to
                                  > purchase
                                  > things of substance.

                                  See, you willingly take a guaranteed loss because you believe that it
                                  will shortly be cancelled by passing off your bad commercial paper.
                                  What about people who want to preserve their right not to be forced to
                                  become a speculator in commercial paper? That "if" of yours is a
                                  mighty big one. A lot of people may not have the confidence that they
                                  can obtain a value equal to that which they would have to give to
                                  receive FRNs.

                                  And you ignore the concept of "payment" of debt versus mere discharge
                                  of debt. Many people's religion admonishes them to avoid usury and
                                  debt. What about them?

                                  > As a free and Sovereign individual, I can operate in Equity when I
                                  > choose
                                  > and leave that realm when I choose.

                                  Do you think most people are aware of the distinction, and know when
                                  and what they are doing? Isn't it obvious that they do not, even on
                                  such as this list where one would presume an above-average knowledge of
                                  the law? I'll bet that hundreds of messages in the archives would
                                  point out where the writer was unaware of the distinctions between law
                                  and equity, where his or her complaint about what was happening in
                                  their lives contained an assumption that they were in possession of
                                  common law rights that were being violated, instead of the fact that
                                  they were in equity chafing under the restriction of their privileges
                                  therein.

                                  > What is your problem with Equity, anyway?

                                  It is uncertain. It is arbitrary. Rights are not as well protected.
                                  At least you have to volunteer into it, or at least give consent to
                                  it, but most people do not know that. You see so many people
                                  complaining about perceived rights violations after signing an
                                  application to be specially regulated in the equity jurisdiction. I
                                  prefer to exercise the freedoms that the founders envisioned as long as
                                  doing so is possible. I prefer to shun usury and debt. I demand all
                                  of my rights at all times and wish to waive none for any cause or
                                  reason.

                                  > What matters as long as the debt is discharged?

                                  What matters? Does it matter that a lender be paid? In your "world"
                                  of debt discharge, debts mount forever, and are never extinguished.

                                  In a mathematically impossible system where all new money is borrowed
                                  into existence, but the amount necessary to pay the interest is not
                                  created independently, somebody is BOUND to lose. This is not
                                  "justice".

                                  > And you said that you never claimed that "there must be some set of
                                  > extremely difficult steps I must go through in order to be free". Yet
                                  > you
                                  > and others have claimed several times in this group that the reason
                                  > most
                                  > choose to not subscribe to your views was the "fact" that most people
                                  > won't
                                  > put in the effort to do otherwise.

                                  Just because most people will not do something, does not mean that it
                                  is "extremely difficult"!

                                  Most people are LAZY. Most AVOID putting forth any more than MINIMUM
                                  effort.

                                  Doing without FRNs only takes will power and thought. Yes, even those
                                  two things are something most are not willing to maintain.

                                  This does not mean it is difficult, rather it points to the quality of
                                  character extant today.

                                  Would you hold that properly setting the clock on a VCR is "extremely
                                  difficult"? Why is it that most people have the wrong time on their
                                  VCR? Get it? Laziness, not difficulty, is what determines what gets
                                  done and what does not today.

                                  > It does take effort.

                                  Yes, to think and speak does take some effort, but actually burns few
                                  calories.

                                  > Most people, and
                                  > every company I know of, will not accept gold or silver as payment.

                                  Am I to believe that you have asked "every company you know of" if they
                                  will accept gold and silver as payment? And "most people"??

                                  This is in a country that has Article 1 Section 10 in the constitution.
                                  This is in a country that used gold and silver for most of its
                                  existence, and where the more highly educated and the wealthy still do.
                                  And all the world's countries maintain gold stocks which they daily
                                  trade amongst themselves. Even many online companies provide gold and
                                  silver payment services. I just don't think your curiosity has led you
                                  to explore the possibilites as diligently as you might have done.

                                  Were you born relatively recently? Are the companies you deal with run
                                  by executives born after JFK was assassinated?

                                  You really should become able to trade in real money, what with the
                                  inevitable collapse of the FRN fiat system.

                                  > You said: ""Sovereign" and "citizen" are mutually exclusive terms."
                                  >
                                  > Only in your world, not in mine.

                                  Isn't it great how more than one world can occupy the same space?!

                                  Citizens are subjects of a sovereign. Sovereigns are subject only to
                                  the Creator of the Universe.

                                  Also, if you have FRNs and no silver or gold in your pockets, it must
                                  be assumed that you are a vagrant insolvent upon the public debt, with
                                  no substance to pay (extinguish) your debts. You will only be presumed
                                  able to discharge your debts as a privilege granted you by the legal
                                  tender laws.

                                  > I said: "If these people are truly in servitude with no rights and the
                                  > fed
                                  > govt has all power,

                                  That's another IF I never said. My mind has trouble accepting the
                                  concept of "fed govt" as a meme. We could discuss the details of why,
                                  but that is for a more convenient time. As for the "servitude",
                                  haven't you ever heard the old maxim that "the borrower is servant to
                                  the lender"? Are you able to properly identify those two parties when
                                  FRNs are involved?

                                  > then how in heaven's name could they ever win

                                  Win? Win what? Are "they" all disputing the SAME ISSUE?

                                  > and walk
                                  > away without paying income taxes?"

                                  Even a taxpayer can have a bad year!

                                  > Then you relied: "You must believe there
                                  > is only one issue. Or one lawful status of man. Tsk tsk tsk."
                                  >
                                  > Nice sound bite, but you never addressed my question.

                                  It was a bad question, which I'm trying now to help you improve and
                                  clarify. First you assumed something I never said. Then with that as
                                  a precondition, you use a non-existent meme (often substituted for
                                  numerous real entities, but in your case it remained unidentifiable) to
                                  claim a power I never admitted existed. Maybe it would help not to use
                                  the words, "all power".

                                  > If these people use
                                  > FRNs and somehow lose their power or sovereignty and become subjects
                                  > with n
                                  > rights, how do they win against those who are supposedly in control of
                                  > their
                                  > lives?

                                  I'll advise you on a case by case basis. With whose would you like to
                                  start?

                                  Also, define "win". It's easy for subjects to have "wins" in courts of
                                  chancery IF they are skilled enough. After all, every case has a
                                  winner and loser, does it not? If all wins were always on the side of
                                  the prosecution, what need would there be to try any case? The outcome
                                  could be predicted with certainty. But no, even subjects occasionally
                                  "win". So what? I don't see what that has to do with anything.

                                  It takes a certain level of thought and preparation (another alien
                                  concept today) to arrange for a court to even discuss the money issue
                                  and FRNs and gold and silver. They hate to do it in front of
                                  witnesses. I already related one of my "wins" using the issue in a
                                  previous message. What about it appeared "extremely difficult" to you?
                                  I would say that (a) thinking enough to be able to (b) speak English
                                  capably enough to make official record is "extremely difficult" for
                                  anyone unfortunate enough to be "legally impaired" as a result of
                                  recent public "education" (sic).

                                  > You said: "But you and others will take and accept whatever you find.
                                  > I
                                  > require law, not consensus beliefs, to back the claims of others upon
                                  > me."
                                  >
                                  > First, I do not accept whatever I find, or we would not be engaged in
                                  > this
                                  > discussion.

                                  You accept FRNs. You say you know all about them, and you still accept
                                  them.
                                  You call them "dollars", do you not? You do this even though the
                                  experts who create them tell you point blank that they are not dollars
                                  and also that they were never intended to substitute for dollars. Are
                                  you denying this?

                                  Yet because "most people" do the same, you feel justified. And you see
                                  that you can possibly obtain advantages over your fellow man by use of
                                  this "scheme". You accept and profit via fractional reserve banking,
                                  if we are to believe you.

                                  In any dishonest system, one "wins" and one loses. FRNs help you win,
                                  by permitting you to take from others without payment, and by letting
                                  you pass on the debt to someone else. The level of debt goes up and
                                  up. You profit. Hooray.

                                  > Nor would I have successfully stopped filing tax returns almost
                                  > 15 years ago.

                                  How do we know? How do we know WHY you stopped filing tax returns? Do
                                  you think that all people who have stopped filing have done it for the
                                  exact same reason you did?

                                  > Second, you do not require law, or you would accept the Fed
                                  > Reserve and its money.

                                  You err in calling it "money". Even they will tell you that. I do
                                  require law, but no law you can show me requires that I willingly
                                  accept debt in lieu of payment. As I've pointed out several times
                                  now, with no rebuttal from anyone, FRNs can only be "compelled" on a
                                  judgment creditor. No law compels one to accept the role of creditor.
                                  I do not permit debts to me to be created. I do not engage in usury.
                                  I do not waive payment nor permit confiscation. Show me the law that
                                  you think makes doing those things compulsory on the part of everyone.

                                  If you cannot produce such a law, admit that doing these things is a
                                  voluntary choice made by individuals one by one. You choose to engage
                                  in the use of a mathematically impossible "system" while I do not. I
                                  claim that this subjects me to fewer laws that operate over your
                                  voluntary choices. Refute it if you can, but I do not have time to
                                  explain to you all the ramifications of your actions. Time spent on
                                  your own researching various topics will do that for you.

                                  > The Fed does not operate by "consensus belief" as
                                  > you suggest.

                                  Ever hear the term "open market committee"? But I didn't say that the
                                  Fed operated by "consensus belief". The Fed PROFITS from concensus
                                  belief, as apparently you do as well. Whereas the Fed is honest
                                  enough to tell the truth about FRNs, you call them dollars in your
                                  dealings with others. You use FRNs for reasons that were not among
                                  those of their creator. You use them as dollar substitutes while you
                                  call them dollars. You use them under conditions covered by
                                  regulations of what is known as the Law Merchant.

                                  > The Fed may operate outside our Constitution but it DOES
                                  > operate under the laws passed by our Congress over the past 90 years.

                                  Yawn....yeah, so? Did I say it didn't? The Congress could pass a law
                                  saying I could eat shit, but that doesn't mean that I'll do it.

                                  > I have no idea what the Ladies Auxiliary has to do with our discussion
                                  > of
                                  > FRNs, but feel free to offer any irrelevant comments you want.

                                  Some people feel the need to vote, so they join groups that otherwise
                                  should not include them just to be able to vote in those groups.
                                  Some people, like me, cannot vote in elections without surrendering
                                  certain rights and joining groups we would rather not join. I do not
                                  feel the need to vote so strongly that I will accept the rules of any
                                  group just to be able to vote.

                                  Likewise, some people feel the need to enjoy any convenience or
                                  expedience they see being enjoyed by others.
                                  In the same way that people will waive rights in order to be able to
                                  vote, some people will waive rights in order to enjoy convenience and
                                  expedience. In the absence of other venues, would your need to vote
                                  cause you to join the Ladies Auxilliary if you heard that doing so
                                  would permit you a vote in their election? In the PERCEIVED absence
                                  of real money, do you feel compelled to accept as an inferior
                                  substitute those things (FRNs) that were never designed to be a
                                  substitute for real money? Yes, you do. You might as well go join the
                                  Ladies Auxilliary so you can vote in their next election.

                                  > The bottom line is simple. I do not subject myself to anything just by
                                  > using FRNs unless I choose to be subjected.

                                  You just haven't been in the right place at the wrong time yet. Just
                                  wait. Someday you will see.
                                  You might try driving while black on I-95 sometime with a large roll of
                                  FRNs. Then you'll see how they're "special". In the meantime,
                                  research "search and seizure" and "cash" (even though "cash" is a
                                  misnomer for FRNs, people generally make that mistake as well).

                                  > Which I do not. You are
                                  > totally correct in that many in America and around the world use FRNs
                                  > without knowing what they are. But you are not correct that using
                                  > FRNs is
                                  > always bad in every way.

                                  I never said their use was always bad in every way. Using such
                                  absolute terms, and putting them into someone else's mouth, is
                                  something you should try to avoid doing.

                                  > But the good news is that America is still free enough for you to live
                                  > how
                                  > you want and for me to live how I want.

                                  You'd best speak for yourself. I feel like I'm in the old Soviet Union
                                  where I live. How do you like the "freedom" afforded those who are not
                                  Republicans in New York City right now? That cage of barbed wire
                                  fences virtually shouts out "FREEDOM!!"

                                  > Free enough for a while, that is...

                                  Maybe where you are. Where I am, we've already crossed the event
                                  horizon of tyranny.
                                • Frog Farmer
                                  ... It was nice to learn of its existence and characteristics. It explains why a lot of what goes on is so different from what we were taught to expect. ...
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Sep 3, 2004
                                    On Sep 2, 2004, at 12:20 PM, John Wilde wrote:

                                    > Forgive them Dave for they know not from which they speak sometimes.
                                    > Some guru out there has told them equity is a bad, wicked, terrible and
                                    > awful thing.

                                    It was nice to learn of its existence and characteristics. It
                                    explains why a lot of what goes on is so different from what we were
                                    taught to expect.

                                    > Just like some people try and tell us that some drugs that
                                    > "they" don't like are a bad, wicked, terrible and awful thing. That is
                                    > why this movement has waged this never ending war against "equity" as
                                    > the gummint has waged the never ending war on some drugs. The
                                    > mentality
                                    > is the same, and the result will be the same. Disaster.

                                    I don't see the correlation. In the drug situation, some people
                                    attempt to control others.

                                    In the movement's effort to inform people of the consequences of
                                    equity, some people don't want to be controlled by others.

                                    How is the mentality the same? And this result of disaster...WHEN?
                                    I've been avoiding FRNs and controls of the equity jurisdiction for
                                    over a quarter of a century. Disaster does not only NOT appear on my
                                    horizon, but when those who depend upon equity seem to suffer, my
                                    fortunes seem to multiply. For example, this year the FRN devalued
                                    about 25% while my chosen forms of exchange increased in value, even to
                                    FRN users. I'd say a 25% devaluation was the disaster end of the
                                    deal, wouldn't you?
                                  • leos
                                    Might one inquire where on a FRN does it refer to a redemption of some kind? Might we know what money reserves you refer to? I know of no money in use in
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Sep 4, 2004
                                      Might one inquire where on a FRN does it refer to a redemption of some kind?  Might we know what "money" reserves you refer to? I know of no "money" in use in the USA, only IOU's.
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: jm367@...
                                      Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 1:00 PM
                                      Subject: Re: WARNING-IFRAME-Re: [tips_and_tricks] George Mercier/ FRN's vs what?

                                      The fraud and the con arises from construction of person in the 14th amendment and from statutes which defined person such as the Dictionary Act  The people in the person of their sovereignty, that is in their proper person, have the reserved right to emit bills of credit.  This right was prohibited to the States and not granted to the federal power. In the character or capacity of a person authorized to exist by a State, there exists no valid right under the Constitution to emit bills of credit and neither has any other person authorized to exist by a State, such as a corporation, the right to emit bills of credit.  This right is reserved to the people in their proper person.   Fractional reserve banking is not emitting bills of credit.  It is emitting bills which can be redeemed from reserves of money.
                                       

                                    • jm367@bellsouth.net
                                      FRN are emergency scrip, having nothing I know of to do with fractional reserve money banking. ... From: leos Might one inquire where on a FRN does it refer to
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Sep 4, 2004
                                        FRN are emergency scrip, having nothing I know of to do with fractional reserve money banking.
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: leos

                                        Might one inquire where on a FRN does it refer to a redemption of some kind? 
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