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RE: [tips_and_tricks] 501c3 unincorporated

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  • Dessie Andrews
    They do it to encourage contributions to the church. I believe they don t believe in their own message enough to be able to attract contributions unless they
    Message 1 of 23 , Jun 18, 2004
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      They do it to encourage contributions to the church. I believe they
      don't believe in their own message enough to be able to attract
      contributions unless they put the "we have made your contributions tax
      deductible" label on them.

      Once upon a time, when the churches weren't businesses and the people
      gave to the church to take care of the poor and needy, there was no need
      for government. The churches played that part in our society. But when
      the Poor Laws were enacted, the churches gladly moved aside and allowed
      the Federal government to fill that void.

      There is a big difference between someone voluntarily gifting to help
      their fellow parishioners and Big Daddy taking away to give to someone
      of his choice.

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Cloverleaf762 [mailto:cloverleaf762@...]
      Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 9:27 AM
      To: tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [tips_and_tricks] 501c3 unincorporated

      A church needs not apply to the federal corporation for anything, and
      that
      which they have is inherently off limits to the feds and outside there
      jurisdiction in most all cases. I'm not sure why most do become that
      other
      than it is often easier to follow the leader than do the right thing.

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Denise and Scott Harclerode [mailto:cshrclrd@...]
      Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 12:02 PM
      To: tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [tips_and_tricks] 501c3 unincorporated



      It is my understanding that when any "church" applies for 501c3 status
      they
      essentially make the government trustee of the property (which they have
      no
      right to do with Gods property).



      Maybe someone can correct my presumption.

















      Yahoo! Groups Links
    • Gregory
      ... Although a church, its integrated auxiliaries, or a convention or association of churches is not required to file Form 1023 to be exempt from federal
      Message 2 of 23 , Jun 19, 2004
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        ----- Original Message ----- > Subject: RE: 501c3 unincorporated

        > They do it to encourage contributions to the church. I believe they
        > don't believe in their own message enough to be able to attract
        > contributions unless they put the "we have made your contributions tax
        > deductible" label on them.
        "Although a church, its integrated auxiliaries, or a convention or
        association of churches is not required to file Form 1023 to be exempt from
        federal income tax or to receive tax deductible contributions, such an
        organization may find it advantageous to obtain recognition of exemption."
        Department of the Treasury, I.R.S., Pub. 557 Tax-Exempt Status for Your
        Organization. Chapt. 3 Page 14.

        "Even if these organizations are not required to file form 1023 to be
        tax-exempt, they may wish to file form 1023 and receive a determination
        letter of IRS recognition of their section 501c(3) status to obtain certain
        incidental benefits such as public recognition of their tax exempt status;
        exemptions from certain state taxes; advance assurance to donors of
        deductibility of contributions; exemption from certain Federal excise taxes;
        nonprofit mailing privileges, etc.""Department of the Treasury, Internal
        Revenue Service, Instructions for form 1023. S. 2"
        In order to obtain priviledges some are willing to be controlled by the
        state.
        "The disadvantages of exemption under ยง501c(3) stem from the strict
        operational restrictions." Detailed Analysis, Tax Management Inc. a
        subsidiary of the Bureau of National Affairs, Inc. 464-2nd, A - 1
        There those who are sincere in their search for the kingdom but still in
        error are found applying.

        There are a number of reasons they do it and at least one is "Because of
        what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
        of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced
        into waiving their rights, due to ignorance." US vs. Minker. 350 US,179
        p187.


        > Once upon a time, when the churches weren't businesses and the people
        > gave to the church to take care of the poor and needy, there was no need
        > for government. The churches played that part in our society. But when
        > the Poor Laws were enacted, the churches gladly moved aside and allowed
        > the Federal government to fill that void.
        >
        > There is a big difference between someone voluntarily gifting to help
        > their fellow parishioners and Big Daddy taking away to give to someone
        > of his choice.

        This is very true so the answer seems to be to undo a thing in the same
        manner it was done.
        reverse the process.
        Why is it so important to understand why Christ preached a kingdom?
        Because it was the precepts of that kingdom that brought Israel together
        long enough to escape the bondage of Egypt, and to assist the Christians as
        Rome declined.
        To understand and do the things the first Century Church did in those early
        days is the key to freedom, both real and imagined.
        The First Century Church was a free Church that assisted the people in ways
        that modern Churches do not even dream.
        What was the government of the kingdom? How was it different?

        The Kingdom Part 4 may be read on the net with formatted text, active
        footnotes and other links at:
        Http://www.hisholychurch.net/news/akingdom4.asp
        Feel free to forward these messages.

        And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick. Luke
        9:2

        Jas 1:27... to keep himself unspotted from the world.

        As we discussed in Part 3 James gives us instructions about remaining
        unspotted from the world. We asked what is that world which we are not to be
        a part of?

        When Jesus was brought into the Roman court of Pontius Pilate he said, "My
        kingdom is not of this world"

        In today's society when someone says the word 'world' we might picture a
        blue planetary globe hanging marble like in the blackness of space as
        photographed from the moon.

        But is that what Christ meant when John used the word 'world' in the gospel
        to communicate to us what Jesus was telling the judge of that court? There
        are five different words in the New Testament that are all translated into
        the single English word 'world'.


        Which one was used by Jesus according to John?


        Was it the word aeon?

        'Aion' means an unbroken age and is far more often translated into
        variations of the word age.


        Another Greek word is 'oikoumene' which originally meant "the portion of the
        earth inhabited by the Greeks, in distinction from the lands of the
        barbarians" it commonly has to do with inhabited places including Israel.
        Kind of a home town world concept. But it does not mean planet.

        The word 'ge' is also translated world once but is translated earth about
        188 times, land 42, ground 18, country 2 times. This is the closest word to
        meaning planet earth.

        We see it used in John 17:4 "I have glorified thee on the earth: I have
        finished the work which thou gavest me to do." But 'ge' is not the word used
        by Jesus concerning his kingdom not being of this world when he spoke to
        Pilate.

        And then there is the word 'erets'. It is translated land 1543, earth 712,
        country 140, ground 98, world 4 times, way 3 times, common once, field once
        and nations once, for a total of 2504. It means 1) land, earth, soil. But no
        that is not the word John uses to describe Jesus meaning. This is a good
        example of how translations can be deceptive. If all these words are
        produced from the same Greek word then translators may need to be watched
        more closely.

        There are other words like 'epigeios'1 used by John which means "existing
        upon the earth, earthly, terrestrial" which clearly could mean planetary but
        that is not the word used in John either.

        So, what word did the author use to describe the world that Jesus Kingdom
        was not of?

        The word 'world' in John 18:36 is translated from the word 'kosmos' which is
        defined "an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order,
        government."2 It probably came from the word komizo meaning "to care for,
        take care of, provide for" or "carry off what is one's own." This is what
        governments have been doing as ordered or organized systems of men like
        Cain's firs city State, Nimrod's Babylon, Pharaoh's treasure cities,
        Caesar's Rome and other social Democracies.


        When Jesus was born, Augustus was the first Emperor of Roman world order.

        "He [Augustus] was now, to quote his own words 'master of all things,' and
        the Roman world looked to him for some permanent settlement of the
        distracted Empire. His first task was the re-establishment of a regular and
        constitutional government, such as had not existed since Julius Caesar
        crossed the Rubicon 20 years before.'"


        Rome had not yet "conquered" Israel but had been invited to settle a civil
        war between two brothers. Back in 66 B.C.when, Hyrcanus II and Aristobulus
        II, were playing Cain and Able over the Kingdom of God on earth there was a
        civil war. One brother got the bright idea to invite Pompey, his Roman
        legions and their benevolent aid to assist in the settlement of this
        internal dispute.

        Aristobulus had made the request in international law for aid. Many
        countries accepted Roman aid and were required to pay into the Roman effort
        toward world peace, Pax Romana.. These agreement were by treaty. They
        created mutual legal obligations and bound Rome to keep world peace by force
        if necessary, maintaining local government integrity.

        Aristobulus gained Pompey's favor by giving him gold but when Pompey
        investigated after complaints from Aristobulus he found by Jewish law that
        Hyrcanus had a better claim and was the rightful heir to that throne. It is
        important to note that Rome was a government of laws and understood laws. It
        did not simply impose their personal whim but through the reason they
        decided disputes based on the basic laws of man and the specific customs and
        ordinances of individual countries.

        Pompey removed Aristobulus' the usurper and his adherents, the Sadducees,
        who still occupied the Temple illegally. He was assisting the supposed
        lawful holder of dominion in Judea. Hyrcanus did not appealed to Rome but
        his followers the Pharisees.

        First, Aristobulus then the followers of Hyrcanus appealed to Rome for the
        establishment of their king's dominion. Jesus would not appeal to Rome for
        protection from the Pharisees and Sadducees who wish to kill him. If Jesus'
        kingdom was of the world of Rome the people of Rome would defend him
        according to the law.

        Jesus and His kingdom was not a part of the constitutional order of Rome and
        its well ordered international world empire. The authority for the Kingdom
        of Heaven on earth was Our Father in Heaven, the Father of Adam and Noah and
        Abraham. The will of that heavenly Father is revealed in the hearts of the
        individual faithful who do not exercise authority one over the other but
        love their neighbor. All our prayers and applications are to be to our
        Father who art in heaven and not to any other Father on earth.

        Call no man Father

        http://www.hisholychurch.net/sermon/father.HTM

        The Pharisees had begun to pray and apply to other gods.

        There are gods many

        http://www.hisholychurch.net/sermon/theosgod.HTM

        How was this possible? They had the old testament which told of God's ways.
        Jesus was constantly quoting from and pointing out where these learned men
        had read the divine text but got it completely wrong. Could men do that
        again today? Could they return to the mire of faithless religions and
        denounce the king of God's kingdom and not even know or understand their
        folly?


        Joh 19:15 But they cried out, Away with [him], away with [him], crucify him.
        Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests
        answered, We have no king but Caesar.

        Feel free to forward these messages.
        Peace on your house
        Gregory@...

        Please send your comments to us at:
        Http://www.hisholychurch.net/stones.htm

        Beginning of Kingdom series
        http://www.hisholychurch.net/news/akingdom1.asp

        Preach the kingdom forward this message to a friend.

        Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together
        But Building a Spiritual House of Living Stones
        http://www.hisholychurch.net/data/astonezform.asp

        If you ever want to leave this mailing list, you can send mail to
        Majordomo@... with the following command in the body of
        your email message:

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        Or go to Join the Kingdom News List
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        Home page
        Http://www.hisholychurch.net/
        http://www.hisholychurch.net/outline.HTM
        Peace on your house
        Gregory

        > FOOTNOTES

        1 1919 ~epigeiov~ epigeios \@ep-ig'-i-os\@ from 1909 and 1093; adj
        AV-earthly 4, terrestrial 2, in earth 1; 7 1) existing upon the earth,
        earthly, terrestrial

        2 2889 ~kosmov~ kosmos \@kos'-mos\@ probably from the base of 2865 komizo; n
        m AV-world 186, adorning 1; 187 1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or
        constitution, order, government
      • JD
        Comments in red ... From: David L. Miner Where do you people get this stuff? First, a church is never exempt. It is simply not subject to. Exempt is a
        Message 3 of 23 , Jun 20, 2004
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          Comments in red
           
          ----- Original Message -----

          Where do you people get this stuff?

          First, a church is never exempt.  It is simply not subject to.  Exempt is a
          specific IRC term with a specific IRC definition, and it means not required for this year.  Exempt is decided one year at a time.  But a natural unregistered church is simply not subject to the Internal Revenue Code. At all.  Ever.  Period.
          True - but when they apply for a 501(c)(3) exemption, they have subjected themselves to the authority of the government.  You will note that the flag is present in the churches.

          There is only ONE BENEFIT to a church if it incorporates into a 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organization.  This one and only benefit is the increase in
          member contributions that results when the members know they can deduct their "giving" from their so-called taxable income on the Form 1040.  But to get that benefit, the church subjects itself to the authority andjurisdiction of the IRS, and it loses or gives up all sorts of freedom,
          especially freedom to preach what it wants to.
           
          At this point, the churches leave the authotiry of God and teachings of Jesus.  "Take heed that you do not takle your alms before men, to be seen of them; otherwise you have no reward of your Father.....Verily I say unto you, they have their reward."

          At no time does registering a church as a tax exempt religious organization change it into a trust, unless the curch was initially formed into a trust. If you disagree, show me in the form or the law where the church is magically and clandestinely transformed into a trust without notice to anyone.  Don't give me explanations and theories and logical ideas, show me in law.  If it is not in law, it is not law.  If it is not law, then you don't have to obey it.  At all.  Ever. Period.
           
          It may not be a trust, but by registering, they have subjected themselves to the authority of the government.  In the founding of this Republic, one of the main sources of information and urging came from the churches.  They assisted the forces that were against the crown, and fighting for the freedom of this country.  By registering, they cannot now, warn of the coming threat of the NWO.  They are silenced to anything but the Bible.

          In addition, show me in law or in Scripture where we are told that if a
          church incorporates it is then excluded from the Body of Christ.  This is
          just so much tripe.  If it isn't in Scripture, then you have made it up.  It
          is just that simple.  Churches do not get excluded from the Body of Christ. Individuals may, and there is a lot of disagreement on that, but churches do not.  Why?  Because churches cannot enter the Body of Christ.  Only individuals can partake in the Body of Christ and the kingdom of heaven.  No church is ever saved in Scripture, or even offered salvation.  Only individuals.
          Jesue said that "you canot serve God and man"  When the church registered - they serve the state.  A few years ago, I taped a wedding for a friend of mine.  It was at a Baptist Church in Bowling Green, Kentucky.  At the conclusion, the pastor said, "By the powers vested in me by the laws of the Commonwealth of Kentucky, I now pronounce you man and wife."  Well, they were married by Kentucky - not God.  And if the pastor doesn't get a marriage license, he cannot marry you, unless he does so unlawfully, if he is a registered church.

          I agree that it is never a good idea that a church become incorporated or
          register as a 501(c)(3) organization.  But let's stop twisting Scripture to
          butress your political views.
           
          Not twisting here.  Go read it for yourself.  Matthew.

          And a church does not get its "tax exempt" status from Luke 22.  That
          passage has absolutely nothing to do with taxes and politics, and it has
          everything to do with the disciples' spiritual and eternal relationships
          with Christ.
           
          What are you talking about?

          Yours in freedom,

          Dave Miner
          www.FreedomSite.net




        • David L. Miner
          JD -- You said: True - but when they apply for a 501(c)(3) exemption, they have subjected themselves to the authority of the government. You will note that
          Message 4 of 23 , Jun 20, 2004
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            JD --
             
            You said: "True - but when they apply for a 501(c)(3) exemption, they have subjected themselves to the authority of the government.  You will note that the flag is present in the churches."
             
            They have indeed subjected themselves to federal controls.  In my opinion, that is not acceptible.  However, not all churches have US flags.  Most I have visited nd all but one I joined did not.  Further, having been in the leadership of several conservative evangelical churches over the past 30 years, I can tell you for certain that no church I have been part of had any federal mandate to fly a flag.  Further, Ihave been associated in a leadership role with 2 non-licensed churches, and BOTH had decided to fly the American flag.  Again, with no federal mandate.  A registered church is no more required to fly an American flag than a corporation or a partnership.
             
            You said: "At this point, the churches leave the authotiry of God and teachings of Jesus.  "Take heed that you do not takle your alms before men, to be seen of them; otherwise you have no reward of your Father.....Verily I say unto you, they have their reward.""
             
            I guess this means that Christians who use profanity or lust in their hearts or experience pride have also left the authority and teachings of Jesus.
             
            You said: "It may not be a trust, but by registering, they have subjected themselves to the authority of the government.  In the founding of this Republic, one of the main sources of information and urging came from the churches.  They assisted the forces that were against the crown, and fighting for the freedom of this country.  By registering, they cannot now, warn of the coming threat of the NWO.  They are silenced to anything but the Bible."
             
            As I stated in my original post, registering a church subjects it to federal authority.  But to state that all registered churches are or must be silent on conservative political issues merely shows you are not aware of the many churches and ministries that do indeed speak out on these issues.  Manu hundreds of registered churches in America are not silenced on these issues.  Most, however, are nowhere vocal enough on these issues, in my opinion, but this silence has many causes.
             
            You said: "Jesue said that "you canot serve God and man"  When the church registered - they serve the state. "
             
            It is your claim that a registered church serves the State.  Further, it is your claim that the State is the same thing as Mammon (the passage does not say "man").  I submit you are wrong in both claims.  There are a great many churches that are so watered down in their theology that they cannot serve God effectively.  But this has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not they are registered and everything to do with the hearts of the leadership. There are many registered churches that directly break the law.  This is especially true in the area of illegal aliens.  Further, there are many churches that ignore the IRS restrictions on political speech.
             
            Registering a church does not change the hearts of the leadership or the people of that church.  On the other hand, it can keep the leadership from preaching their hearts.  This is clearly not good, and I do not believe that God likes that restriction at all.  But registering a church does not take it or its people out of the Body of Christ, which was my point in my initial post in this thread.
             
            I think I made clear that I am totally against a church registering with the fed govt to become a tax-exempt religious organization.  But I cannot condone the twisting of Scripture to support political beliefs.
             
            You said: "What are you talking about?"
             
            Go back and read the post to which I initially responded.
             

            Yours in freedom,

            Dave Miner
            www.FreedomSite.net

             
             
             
             
            -----Original Message-----
            From: JD [mailto:jdulaney@...]
            Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 1:36 PM
            To: tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [tips_and_tricks] 501c3 unincorporated

             
            Comments in red
             
            ----- Original Message -----

            Where do you people get this stuff?

            First, a church is never exempt.  It is simply not subject to.  Exempt is a
            specific IRC term with a specific IRC definition, and it means not required for this year.  Exempt is decided one year at a time.  But a natural unregistered church is simply not subject to the Internal Revenue Code. At all.  Ever.  Period.
            True - but when they apply for a 501(c)(3) exemption, they have subjected themselves to the authority of the government.  You will note that the flag is present in the churches.

            There is only ONE BENEFIT to a church if it incorporates into a 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organization.  This one and only benefit is the increase in
            member contributions that results when the members know they can deduct their "giving" from their so-called taxable income on the Form 1040.  But to get that benefit, the church subjects itself to the authority andjurisdiction of the IRS, and it loses or gives up all sorts of freedom,
            especially freedom to preach what it wants to.
             
            At this point, the churches leave the authotiry of God and teachings of Jesus.  "Take heed that you do not takle your alms before men, to be seen of them; otherwise you have no reward of your Father.....Verily I say unto you, they have their reward."

            At no time does registering a church as a tax exempt religious organization change it into a trust, unless the curch was initially formed into a trust. If you disagree, show me in the form or the law where the church is magically and clandestinely transformed into a trust without notice to anyone.  Don't give me explanations and theories and logical ideas, show me in law.  If it is not in law, it is not law.  If it is not law, then you don't have to obey it.  At all.  Ever. Period.
             
            It may not be a trust, but by registering, they have subjected themselves to the authority of the government.  In the founding of this Republic, one of the main sources of information and urging came from the churches.  They assisted the forces that were against the crown, and fighting for the freedom of this country.  By registering, they cannot now, warn of the coming threat of the NWO.  They are silenced to anything but the Bible.

            In addition, show me in law or in Scripture where we are told that if a
            church incorporates it is then excluded from the Body of Christ.  This is
            just so much tripe.  If it isn't in Scripture, then you have made it up.  It
            is just that simple.  Churches do not get excluded from the Body of Christ. Individuals may, and there is a lot of disagreement on that, but churches do not.  Why?  Because churches cannot enter the Body of Christ.  Only individuals can partake in the Body of Christ and the kingdom of heaven.  No church is ever saved in Scripture, or even offered salvation.  Only individuals.
            Jesue said that "you canot serve God and man"  When the church registered - they serve the state.  A few years ago, I taped a wedding for a friend of mine.  It was at a Baptist Church in Bowling Green, Kentucky.  At the conclusion, the pastor said, "By the powers vested in me by the laws of the Commonwealth of Kentucky, I now pronounce you man and wife."  Well, they were married by Kentucky - not God.  And if the pastor doesn't get a marriage license, he cannot marry you, unless he does so unlawfully, if he is a registered church.

            I agree that it is never a good idea that a church become incorporated or
            register as a 501(c)(3) organization.  But let's stop twisting Scripture to
            butress your political views.
             
            Not twisting here.  Go read it for yourself.  Matthew.

            And a church does not get its "tax exempt" status from Luke 22.  That
            passage has absolutely nothing to do with taxes and politics, and it has
            everything to do with the disciples' spiritual and eternal relationships
            with Christ.
             
            What are you talking about?

            Yours in freedom,

            Dave Miner
            www.FreedomSite.net
          • Nilbux@aol.com
            In a message dated 6/20/2004 10:52:38 PM Central Daylight Time, ... I am enclined to believe that all churches serve the state either with silence or nonsense
            Message 5 of 23 , Jun 20, 2004
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              In a message dated 6/20/2004 10:52:38 PM Central Daylight Time, dminer@... writes:

              It is your claim that a registered church serves the State. 

               
              I am enclined to believe that all churches serve the state either
                with silence or nonsense or both.  Churches should be telling
                the world that the dollar was fixed by law as a weight of silver;
                it is impossible to pay taxes with paper; government spends no-
                thing (they expropriate with weightless credit) and in this system,
                death and "taxes" do the same thing for our Masonic misleaders.
                While the illusion called "taxes" regulates our consumption, death   
                eliminates consumers, preferably non productive babies and retirees.
                Abortion was legalized because babies are non productive consumers
                and fluoridation is one of many ways to eliminate non productive re-
                tirees. For more and why, request: Who Controls The Medical Industry.

                 Nonsense from the preachers is when they say Jesus is coming and
                 when they say "render unto Caesar" which Jesus never told his people!
                
                  You cannot produce ONE verse that says, suggests, hints or implies
                  that Jesus will come after today or in our future.  20 or more verses
                  indicated that he would return before the disciples all died. The re-
                  ligion of our Masonic misleaders is based on unfulfilled prophecy and
                  they wrote that their god "is dedicated to the unification of all races,
                  religions and creeds,"--The New Age, Sep. 1950 (please request page)
                  Their goal is our problem!  

                  The world's greatest problem are the hordes of intimidated preachers
                   who fear to teach the facts above lest they lose their tax exemption.
                   Eustace Mullins wrote that churches are controlled by the Sealantic
                   Fund.   Search that, will you?

                   "My people perish for lack of knowledge" Hosea 4:6

            • JD
              Last time, David. We may disagree, but let s not bash this into the ground. If you respond to this, come at me privately. ... From: David L. Miner JD -- You
              Message 6 of 23 , Jun 21, 2004
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                Last time, David.  We may disagree, but let's not bash this into the ground.  If you respond to this, come at me privately.
                 
                ----- Original Message -----

                JD --
                 
                You said: "True - but when they apply for a 501(c)(3) exemption, they have subjected themselves to the authority of the government.  You will note that the flag is present in the churches."
                 
                They have indeed subjected themselves to federal controls.  In my opinion, that is not acceptible.  However, not all churches have US flags.  Most I have visited nd all but one I joined did not.  Further, having been in the leadership of several conservative evangelical churches over the past 30 years, I can tell you for certain that no church I have been part of had any federal mandate to fly a flag.  Further, Ihave been associated in a leadership role with 2 non-licensed churches, and BOTH had decided to fly the American flag.  Again, with no federal mandate.  A registered church is no more required to fly an American flag than a corporation or a partnership.
                 
                I have told you what I have seen.  I don't make it a habit going around inspecting churches for flags.
                 
                You said: "At this point, the churches leave the authotiry of God and teachings of Jesus.  "Take heed that you do not takle your alms before men, to be seen of them; otherwise you have no reward of your Father.....Verily I say unto you, they have their reward.""
                 
                I guess this means that Christians who use profanity or lust in their hearts or experience pride have also left the authority and teachings of Jesus.
                 
                You are not paying attention.  If the churches want to "entice" donations by makeing those donations "deductable" then they have turned away from the teachings of Christ.  "Let not the left hand know what the right hand is doing".
                 
                You said: "It may not be a trust, but by registering, they have subjected themselves to the authority of the government.  In the founding of this Republic, one of the main sources of information and urging came from the churches.  They assisted the forces that were against the crown, and fighting for the freedom of this country.  By registering, they cannot now, warn of the coming threat of the NWO.  They are silenced to anything but the Bible."
                 
                As I stated in my original post, registering a church subjects it to federal authority.  But to state that all registered churches are or must be silent on conservative political issues merely shows you are not aware of the many churches and ministries that do indeed speak out on these issues.  Manu hundreds of registered churches in America are not silenced on these issues.  Most, however, are nowhere vocal enough on these issues, in my opinion, but this silence has many causes.
                 
                Hmmm.  Does your church require a license to marry?  (I know that there are some that don't - but most do).  Do they speak out on the losses of rights of the people?  Do they speak out when children are dragged from the homes of parents?  Case in point took place a few weeks ago when the state took Two children from their parents who were home schooling them.  This was in Waltham, Massachusetts.  They refused to take a standardized test when private schools are not required to do so.
                 
                You said: "Jesue said that "you canot serve God and man"  When the church registered - they serve the state. "
                 
                It is your claim that a registered church serves the State.  Further, it is your claim that the State is the same thing as Mammon (the passage does not say "man").  I submit you are wrong in both claims.  There are a great many churches that are so watered down in their theology that they cannot serve God effectively.  But this has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not they are registered and everything to do with the hearts of the leadership. There are many registered churches that directly break the law.  This is especially true in the area of illegal aliens.  Further, there are many churches that ignore the IRS restrictions on political speech.
                 
                It appears that you are reading what I say with prejudice.  A registered church is going to do exactly what it is told to do.  Look at the Baptist Church in Indianapolis whose land and building was taken from them.  I have a flyer from a few years ago, in which the pastor of a church was speaking of the "rape" of his unregistered church.  Yes, there are some out there, but not enough.  I notice that you did not address the fact that the pastor of that Baptist Church declared that he married the couple from the power of the state.  Others have done so, and, and I know that this is pickey, but even the movies portray this.
                 
                Registering a church does not change the hearts of the leadership or the people of that church.  On the other hand, it can keep the leadership from preaching their hearts.  This is clearly not good, and I do not believe that God likes that restriction at all.  But registering a church does not take it or its people out of the Body of Christ, which was my point in my initial post in this thread.
                 
                I think you should check up on the Agenda of the National Council of Churches and their tie in with the World council of Churches..
                 
                I think I made clear that I am totally against a church registering with the fed govt to become a tax-exempt religious organization.  But I cannot condone the twisting of Scripture to support political beliefs.
                 
                WHO'S TWISTING?  I THINK YOU HAD BETTER REREAD WHAT I HAVE .POSTED.  There's no twisting of anything.  A church is going to stand by the laws of God and the teachings of Jesus or else.  There is no in between.  Read Revelation wherein Jesus stated that He did not wish a church to be neither hot or cold. He  stated that they should be one or the other. (Rev 3:14-16)
                 
                You said: "What are you talking about?"
                 
                Go back and read the post to which I initially responded.
                 
                You did not explain yourself.  Chapter 22 is broad.  What verse are you referring to??
                 

                Yours in freedom,

                Dave Miner
                www.FreedomSite.net

                Moderator.  Sorry about this.  This is my last public post on this subject.  I do not believe in carrying out a debate to the point that it becomes obnoxious to the readers in general.  JD.
                 
                 
                 
              • Nilbux@aol.com
                In a message dated 6/20/2004 10:31:47 AM Central Daylight Time, ... Nilbux: Aside from churches, the Imaginary Revenue Scum ... Revenue cannot be real if
                Message 7 of 23 , Jun 21, 2004
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                  In a message dated 6/20/2004 10:31:47 AM Central Daylight Time, dminer@... writes:
                  It
                  First, a church is never exempt.  It is simply not subject to.


                  Nilbux:
                     Aside from churches, the Imaginary Revenue Scum

                  informed me that they did not have my tax returns.

                  I wrote and asked them for the statute that makes me
                  subject to the tax.  They sent me a form letter that
                  listed ten questions they don't have to answer. That
                  was 7 years ago.  My question was not on the list.

                     
                  Revenue cannot be real if money is not real.
                      You should read: "Money", The Greatest Hoax On Earth
                      by Merrill Jenkins, Monetary Realist.

                      Tupper Saussy called this 235 page book a "magnum opus."

                      No money required to get this book as there isn't any.

                      Checks and money orders for 9.00 accepted.

                       Awake America, Box 22431  St. Louis MO 63126
                • David L. Miner
                  Nilbux -- You said: Churches should be telling the world that the dollar was fixed by law as a weight of silver; So what Scripture passages exhorts churches
                  Message 8 of 23 , Jun 22, 2004
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                    Nilbux --

                    You said: "Churches should be telling the world that the dollar was fixed by
                    law as a weight of silver;"

                    So what Scripture passages exhorts churches in general or church leaders in
                    particular to support your views of the current monetary situation?

                    You said: "Nonsense from the preachers is when they say Jesus is coming and
                    when they say "render unto Caesar" which Jesus never told his people!"

                    So are you saying that Matthew 22:21 does not exist?

                    As to your comments on the Second Coming, while I do not personally
                    subscribe to the traditional view of a Rapture of the Church, many hundreds
                    of books and thousands of articles have been written that address the
                    hundreds of passages that seem to claim, some very clearly, that Jesus will
                    return again. Either you are claiming that all of them are wrong, or you
                    are claiming that Scripture is wrong. Either way, I will leave the argument
                    alone. Not because I haven't spent hundreds of hours studying these
                    passages, but because these passages have no bearing on the issues being
                    discussed in this group.

                    Yours in freedom,

                    Dave Miner
                    www.FreedomSite.net




                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Nilbux@... [mailto:Nilbux@...]
                    Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 12:55 AM
                    To: tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com; vetzine@...;
                    harrymobley@...; grahamjukes@...; rod@...;
                    balderdash88@...; FRANKKJV@...; PawlRevere2@...;
                    stuart513@...
                    Subject: Re: [tips_and_tricks] 501c3 unincorporated


                    In a message dated 6/20/2004 10:52:38 PM Central Daylight Time,
                    dminer@... writes:


                    It is your claim that a registered church serves the State.
                  • Denise and Scott Harclerode
                    David: Do you believe that Jesus set aside the OT admonition that we are not to employ unjust or diverse weights and measures? So what Scripture passages
                    Message 9 of 23 , Jun 22, 2004
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                      David: 

                       

                                  Do you believe that Jesus set aside the OT admonition that we are not to employ unjust or diverse weights and measures?

                       

                      So what Scripture passages exhorts churches in general or church leaders in
                      particular to support your views of the current monetary situation?

                       

                    • Nilbux@aol.com
                      In a message dated 6/22/2004 4:04:27 PM Central Daylight Time, ... Thou shalt not rasise false reports Ex.23:1. ALL reports of dollars on tax returns are
                      Message 10 of 23 , Jun 22, 2004
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                        In a message dated 6/22/2004 4:04:27 PM Central Daylight Time,
                        dminer@... writes:

                        > Nilbux --
                        >
                        > You said: "Churches should be telling the world that the dollar was fixed by
                        > law as a weight of silver;" THIS IS A FACT.
                        >
                        > So what Scripture passages exhorts churches in general or church leaders in
                        > particular to support your views of the current monetary situation?

                        "Thou shalt not rasise false reports" Ex.23:1. ALL reports of dollars on
                        tax
                        returns are false reports. Have you read my: IRS In Scripture? (2 pages)

                        > You said: "Nonsense from the preachers is when they say Jesus is coming and
                        > when they say "render unto Caesar" which Jesus never told his people!"
                        >
                        > So are you saying that Matthew 22:21 does not exist?
                        The Herodians were Jesus' people? WHO was Jesus speaking to?
                        It is great error to believe that Jesus ever spoke to us. To do so is
                        to twist the gospel, and worse, some will say he spoke to us in
                        several verses but not in all of them. See James 1:8 for such people.
                        He may have spoke to you in John 8:44 but he sure never spoke to me!

                        > As to your comments on the Second Coming, while I do not personally
                        > subscribe to the traditional view of a Rapture of the Church, many hundreds
                        > of books and thousands of articles have been written that address the
                        > hundreds of passages that seem to claim, some very clearly, that Jesus will
                        > return again.

                        This fact shows the sucess of the seond most powerful force on earth
                        at imposing their religion on the world. They said that their god
                        "is dedicated to the unification of all races, religions and creeds,"
                        --The new Age, Sep. 1950. Their religion is based on unfulfilled prophecy.
                        You should read that whole page, which I have on disk.

                        Either you are claiming that all of them are wrong, or you
                        > NONE of those can produce a single verse that says, suggests,
                        hints or implies that Jesus will come IN OUR FUTURE, OR
                        AFTER TODAY. 20 or more verses indicated that He would
                        return before the disciples all died. I think they all died.
                        Have you seen any disciples lately?

                        > are claiming that Scripture is wrong. Either way, I will leave the
                        > argument
                        > alone. Not because I haven't spent hundreds of hours studying these
                        > passages, but because these passages have no bearing on the issues being
                        > discussed in this group.
                        >
                        Your err. God promised long lfe if we rerrained from using unjust weights.
                        De. 25:13-15 Taxation is an illusion that conceals the fraud of
                        weigh-tless dollars, pounds, pesos, francs, lira, marks, etc. It is not possible to pay
                        taxes with paper, therefore taxation IS an illusion and one of many means of
                        regulating our consumption. You should learn all of them. I may know
                        15 of them.

                        What issue can possiby be more vital than
                        WHY the Fed needs babies and retirees dead?
                        Its the same reason they want us to pretend
                        that we pay taxes. THEY MUST REGULATE
                        CONSUMPTION BY ALL MEANS BOTH FAIR AND FOUL.
                        Request: The Economic Consequences of Longevity
                      • Nilbux@aol.com
                        In a message dated 6/22/2004 10:23:44 PM Central Daylight Time, cshrclrd@eastex.net writes: Absolutely not! WHY would you ask such a question? I think i
                        Message 11 of 23 , Jun 22, 2004
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                          In a message dated 6/22/2004 10:23:44 PM Central Daylight Time, cshrclrd@... writes:


                          Absolutely not!
                          WHY would you ask such a question?

                          I think i know---proceed.



                          David: 


                                     Do you believe that Jesus set aside the OT admonition that we are not to employ unjust or diverse weights and measures?



                          So what Scripture passages exhorts churches in general or church leaders in
                          particular to support your views of the current monetary situation?





                        • David L. Miner
                          Denise and/or Scott -- Good question, and thanks for asking it. But whether or not I believe Jesus set it aside is not the issue. What did that admonition
                          Message 12 of 23 , Jun 22, 2004
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                            Denise and/or Scott --
                             
                            Good question, and thanks for asking it.  But whether or not I believe Jesus set it aside is not the issue.  What did that admonition mean is the issue.  And I believe that passage clearly applied to exactly what it said -- saying something was 16 ounces and paying for that 16 ounces when it was really 18 ounces and you cheated someone out of their pay for 2 ounces.  The passage did not address what you used to pay for the 16 ounces, but it did clearly address getting the 2 ounces free by fraud.
                             
                            Using legally adopted currency that has no hard currency value behind it is not covered by that passage.  I believe it is prohibited by the Constitution, but it is not prohibited by the Bible.  At least not that passage.
                             
                            So you heard my side; what is your side?
                             

                            Yours in freedom,

                            Dave Miner
                            www.FreedomSite.net

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Denise and Scott Harclerode [mailto:cshrclrd@...]
                            Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 10:49 PM
                            To: tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: RE: [tips_and_tricks] 501c3 unincorporated

                            David: 

                             

                                        Do you believe that Jesus set aside the OT admonition that we are not to employ unjust or diverse weights and measures?

                             

                            So what Scripture passages exhorts churches in general or church leaders in
                            particular to support your views of the current monetary situation?

                             

                          • Denise and Scott Harclerode
                            Dave: I believe that the process of buying something is in fact nothing more then bartering. If your (or my) measure of value in money is federal reserve
                            Message 13 of 23 , Jun 22, 2004
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                              Dave:

                               

                              I believe that the process of buying something is in fact nothing more then bartering.  If your (or my) measure of value in money is federal reserve accounting units which are represented to be “dollars” you, (or I) inadvertently defraud the other party in any exchange where only one party receives something of value.  The system enfranchises one party in favor of the other.  I believe this is certainly included in the prohibition.

                               

                              Scott Harclerode

                               

                              Using legally adopted currency that has no hard currency value behind it is not covered by that passage.  I believe it is prohibited by the Constitution, but it is not prohibited by the Bible.  At least not that passage.

                               

                              So you heard my side; what is your side?

                               

                               

                            • Nilbux@aol.com
                              In a message dated 6/23/2004 12:48:28 AM Central Daylight Time, ... The only thing congress ever made current as money was silver coins and the dollar was
                              Message 14 of 23 , Jun 22, 2004
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                                In a message dated 6/23/2004 12:48:28 AM Central Daylight Time, dminer@... writes:

                                Using legally adopted currency that has no hard currency value behind it is not covered by that passage.  I believe it is prohibited by the Constitution, but it is not prohibited by the Bible.  At least not that passage.
                                 
                                WHO uses "legally adopted currency"?

                                The only thing congress ever made "current as money" was silver coins and the dollar was permanently fixed as a weight of silver, being 371 1/4 grains.  This could be changed only by amendment OR by
                                revolution. We have no such amendment. To pass something containing less than a dollar weight of silver  as a full dollar is doing business with unjust weights.

                                    Too many believe that piece of paper is a dollar.  If you offer a
                                    merchant a 5 dollar bill for a 1 dollar purchase, do you receive
                                    in change 4 times as much money or 4 times as much paper?

                                    If all dfivinity schools churn out ministers deceived on monetary
                                     matters--and they do, why should we believe that they are not
                                     misled on spiritual matters too, especially when the second
                                     most powerful force on earth (Freemasonry) said that their god
                                     "is dedicated to the unification of all races, religions and creeds"?
                                      You should read that whole page with its comments on public schools.
                                       I can email it.

                                      Helen Peters was a great American writer. She died in 1971.
                                      She wrote that all of the churches are synagogues.  I have not
                                      attended all churches but I am imclined to agree and I say the
                                      world's number one problem is the intimidated preachers who
                                      fear to tell the truth about tax illusions and spending illusions
                                       lest they lose their tax exemption,

                                       The New World Odor could never prevail without the acquiescence
                                        of the pope and Americas preachers.
                              • David L. Miner
                                Scott -- If you believe that interpersonal commercial transactions are barter, then the fraud you suggest is not happening. I believe you do not understand
                                Message 15 of 23 , Jun 23, 2004
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                                  Scott --
                                   
                                  If you believe that interpersonal commercial transactions are barter, then the fraud you suggest is not happening.  I believe you do not understand the nature of financial transactions and the nature of value.
                                   
                                  Value is what you and I agree.  This is especially true of barter.  In barter, there can be absolutely no externally established value -- as long as the traders agree on the value it is a good trade. 
                                   
                                  [True Story]  When I was in grade school, I used to shoot marbles every day at recess.  (Remember marbles?)  I was really quite good at it.  My best shooter was a lavender-colored puree.  But the marble had a substantial crack in it.  I knew that it was possible that the marble would break in two the very next shot.  But I was so consistently winning with that marble, that I shot with it every day.  Everyone used to watch me play on the playground.  Even the teachers used to watch.  One day a kid I hardly knew offered me his week's lunch money for the lavender puree.  I sold it to him, and retired with a large box of hundreds of marbles I had won.  The kid, I don't even remember his name, took the marble home and never used it.  Others claimed he had been ripped off because the marble could break any day, but he believed he had received a good deal and kept the marble on his dresser at home.
                                   
                                  He got what he wanted, and I got what I wanted.  The fact that the marble had little or no value to others, especially to shooters that might have wanted to use it, didn't matter.  It was a fair trade because we both walked away with what we expected.
                                   
                                  If I barter to you a chicken, and you barter to me a dollar bill for that chicken, then we have a good trade as long as that dollar was worth what I expected and that chicken was what you expected.  It was a good trade UNLESS that dollar you gave me HAS NO VALUE TO ANYONE.  As long as that dollar you gave me can be traded to someone else for a loaf of bread (or anything else I deem as having a value similar to that chicken) then that was a fair trade.
                                   
                                  All of the world is used to the Federal Reserve Note being worth only what the Fed Reserve says it is and backed by only the promise to pay by our fed govt.  The entire world has deemed that "bet" is pretty safe.  And all currencies in the world are valued against the FRN so the true value of the FRN is known to everyone at all times.  There is no fraud going on here, Scott.  Everyone knows the value of a FRN and everyone uses the same value.
                                   
                                  On the other hand, there is a clear violation of the Constitution, where it gives to Congress the authority to coin money and establish its value without the option to delegate that authority.  Further, the Constitution defines gold and silver as our money, without the authority for Congress to change that.  So we clearly have a violation of the Constitution, but not the inter-personal fraud you suggest.
                                   
                                  Just because the dollar bill is not backed by gold or silver DOES NOT mean it is valueless, in spite of your implications.  It has value as long as my neighbor will accept it in trade for things, and its value is somewhat predictable as long as the fed reserve controls its value.  YOU might not attribute any value to the dollar bill, but almost the entire world DOES attribute value to that dollar bill.  So the fraud might be when you to give to others something you believe is valueless.  But the fraud is imaginary because there is value to the dollar bill.  You just don't accept that value. 
                                   
                                  And just because you choose to not attribute to the FRN the value that everyone else in the world attributes to that FRN does not in any way qualify the FRN as a violation to the Biblical exhortation to be true in your weights and measures.
                                   
                                  On the other hand, if you truly believe the FRN has no value, then please send yours to me.  I believe it has value and wouldn't mind receiving your "waste paper."
                                   

                                  Yours in freedom,

                                  Dave Miner
                                  www.FreedomSite.net

                                   
                                   
                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: Denise and Scott Harclerode [mailto:cshrclrd@...]
                                  Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 1:45 AM
                                  To: tips_and_tricks@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: RE: [tips_and_tricks] 501c3 unincorporated

                                  Dave:

                                   

                                  I believe that the process of buying something is in fact nothing more then bartering.  If your (or my) measure of value in money is federal reserve accounting units which are represented to be “dollars” you, (or I) inadvertently defraud the other party in any exchange where only one party receives something of value.  The system enfranchises one party in favor of the other.  I believe this is certainly included in the prohibition.

                                   

                                  Scott Harclerode

                                • Nilbux@aol.com
                                  In a message dated 6/23/2004 12:55:29 PM Central Daylight Time, ... Ya gotta be kidding! The promise to pay was deleted in 1963, What would they pay?
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Jun 23, 2004
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                                    In a message dated 6/23/2004 12:55:29 PM Central Daylight Time, dminer@... writes:

                                    All of the world is used to the Federal Reserve Note being worth only what the Fed Reserve says it is and backed by only the promise to pay by our fed govt. 

                                       
                                    Ya gotta be kidding!

                                        The promise to pay
                                         was deleted in 1963,

                                         What would they pay?
                                  • Nilbux@aol.com
                                    In a message dated 6/23/2004 12:55:29 PM Central Daylight Time, ... The Fed admits they operate a confidence game and that the history of banking is a history
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Jun 23, 2004
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                                      In a message dated 6/23/2004 12:55:29 PM Central Daylight Time, dminer@... writes:

                                      There is no fraud going on here,

                                      The Fed admits they operate a confidence game
                                      and that the history of banking is a history of fraud.
                                      page 3, Modern Money Mechanics

                                      It
                                      does not matter what they admit when less than
                                      one percent read it and those who recite it are ridiculed.
                                    • Nilbux@aol.com
                                      In a message dated 6/23/2004 12:55:29 PM Central Daylight Time, ... as long as he can rob people with it and not face prosecution? The IRS wrote that Fed notes
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Jun 23, 2004
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                                        In a message dated 6/23/2004 12:55:29 PM Central Daylight Time, dminer@... writes:

                                        On the other hand, if you truly believe the FRN has no value, then please send yours to me.  I believe it has value and wouldn't mind receiving your "waste paper."
                                         
                                        Why should he give you what Nobel Laureate calls "counterfeit"
                                        as long as he can rob people with it and not face prosecution?

                                            The IRS wrote that Fed notes are not dollars.
                                            Will you tell us what a dollar really is?
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